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Match-up Discussion: Zero Suit Samus

HeroMystic

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Zero Suit Samus


Topics to Discuss
  • How do we win?
  • What do we watch out for?
  • Stages to BAN/CP?
  • Tips/Tricks when fighting this character?
  • Videos?
  • MU classification?
 

Matador

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*approves of sprinked on little touch*

I play this match-up a ton with Sassy (Best ZSS in MD/VA) and, as far as I can tell, BBR has it right...slight advantage ZSS.

How do we win?: Mario wins this match-up when he consistently gets inside, abuses ZSS's lack of a good grab and OOS options, and knows where ZSS is vulnerable offstage. It's also a balancing act between playing aggressive or playing defensive, based on the stage, who has the lead, and each character's position on the stage.

What do we watch out for?: Problems arise in this match-up when Mario cannot get inside. ZSS is a character renowned for an amazing keep-away/zoning game, and heavy, reliable punishment options. She's also one of the few characters that outspeeds Mario in almost every area. This makes her already superior airgame EVEN MORE dangerous. ZSS has numerous aerial traps and baiting tools using ALL of her B moves, aerials, and enormous double jump height.

A general break-down of what to look for:
  1. NEVER get above ZSS if you can help it. She can literally force you to airdodge or double jump and punish you for it. Also, don't get wreckless with fireballs while recovering...most of her aerials beat them.
  2. Dsmash. Letting her land this is like letting D3 grab you. A Dsmash means 30+ damage easily...or a kill if you're high enough. However, she can't catch you with this unless you make a mistake, due to the nature of this move. This means airdodging to the ground too close to her, trying to punish one of her low lag moves, or just overall being predictable.
  3. Dash attack lock. Works near mid percentages and leads into a fair offstage. Just avoid this. If caught, don't exhaust your jump until you need it.
  4. Mario is one of the few people that can gimp ZSS. You must know how though...otherwise you can easily end up endangering yourself instead. Use fireballs, cape, FIHL, and aerials to kill her jumps, then grab the ledge. Be careful of her upB when on the ledge...it'll take you with her.
  5. And last, but not least, DO NOT FORCE THE KILL! ZSS has some of the best zoning and punishers in the game. Wrecklessly trying to force kill moves will only end horribly for you. Go for safe punishes or things you know will work...if you're having trouble, zone with fireballs and spaced tilts/bairs till utilt, bthrow, and aerials will kill her. Remember, she's extremely light.

Ban/CP?: You want to go somewhere that ZSS's zoning and keep-away aren't as effective, which will force her to fight in your comfort zone. I'd suggest CPing FD or maybe Halberd.

Ban stages like SV or PS1.

Tips n Tricks?: When caught above ZSS, abuse wavebounced fireballs, dair, and nair to get back to the ground safely. Avoid capestalling unless using it to mix up your descent. Try to save your double jump and avoid airdodging if you can. Remember, her Uair beats our dair and nair from below. Your goal is to avoid conflict until you reach the ground.

Her Dtilt puts you in perfect position for Dsmash. Capestall or double jump after getting hit by this attack. Do not airdodge or nair unless this particular ZSS is baiting the capestall or something. If you MUST airdodge, airdodge away. She can dash grab in response, but that's only on a read.

Dthrow is amazing against ZSS. She can only airdodge, double jump, or nair at low percentages. Uair beats all but airdodge, and shielding/following beats all but double jump. This is great since Fthrow is hard to follow-up after vs ZSS. Edit: SHDair will adequately cover options as well as a follow-up to Dthrow.

Learn her downB kick's hitbox. Usmash can beat it from the right angle. She's also vulnerable if she lands with it.

If you don't feel comfortable with using her suit pieces, throw them off. Just know that Mario can be quite formidable with them vs ZSS. A caped suit piece does insane damage.

Videos?: Pending XD

Boss fought Sassy awhile back in tourney, but that's mad old now.

Vato has a match or two vs Warpstatus up on his channel too. He plays the match-up well.

MU Classification?: Mario vs ZSS is -1 for Mario.
 

A2ZOMG

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Matador, you disappoint me. There isn't a statement about crouching.

I would have given you two cookies, but you only get one now. Also not that it applies to ZSS specifically, but nobody mentions D-air after D-throw enough.
 

Matador

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Matador, you disappoint me. There isn't a statement about crouching.

I would have given you two cookies, but you only get one now. Also not that it applies to ZSS specifically, but nobody mentions D-air after D-throw enough.
I was thinking about that as I wrote this. Figured I shouldn't suggest something that I haven't tried myself vs ZSS. It makes sense though...Sassy's always talking about the timing it takes to make her fastfalled aerials hit me while standing...wouldn't surprise me that it's pretty impossible while crouching.

And yeah, I neglected to mention Dthrow to Dair, but I use this a ton vs ZSS as well...much more effective than uair.

So yeah, use it XD
 

Calebyte

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I approve of the sprinkled touch. Anyways, I don't have a lot to add, as I generally get ***** in this matchup, especially when they abuse side-B. Any good answers for side-B?
 

Matador

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I approve of the sprinkled touch. Anyways, I don't have a lot to add, as I generally get ***** in this matchup, especially when they abuse side-B. Any good answers for side-B?
Thanks for asking.

This is the main reason why fireballs are so great in this match-up. SideB has relatively slow start-up and doesn't cancel fireballs well. This forces her to think twice about using sideB, even if she retreats it. Once mis-step means that we get free entry to get in close.

The only issue with this is your own spacing while lobbing fireballs...SideB has a ton of range, so you want to be outside of this range before throwing, but still close enough that they'll hit in time to punish her sideB. Keep that in mind.

Other than that, shield is our only answer. Remember that her spacing for the attack is also very specific. Too close or too far, and the attack whiffs.
 
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Matador, I got question, why we need to ban SV for since u mentioned that we need to be close up as soon as possible to screw up her keep away and zoning. SV seems kinda neutral for both sides of the MU.
 

Matador

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Matador, I got question, why we need to ban SV for since u mentioned that we need to be close up as soon as possible to screw up her keep away and zoning. SV seems kinda neutral for both sides of the MU.
Good question.

I just don't like the offstage advantages that the platform offers her. It helps her recovery a bit more since she really doesn't suffer any kinda punishable lag after landing like we do from upB. That kinda dampens our edgeguarding a bit.

It also strengthens her edgeguarding since she pressures so well offstage already. The platform only makes that worse for us.

Her platform pressure's not too shabby either if she waits for us to land while recovering. Mario can't really punish it.

Not really game-changing...but out of all the neutrals, this is the one I'd rather not play on.
 

HeroMystic

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I'd rather not say take her to Battlefield because her platform pressure towers over ours. Up-B is pretty gay.

Overall though I'd say the best stage to take her on is Final Destination since there's pretty much no BS. Only thing you have to worry about is the Armor pieces.
 

A2ZOMG

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Brinstar is probably great against her. You abuse the platforms far more effectively than she does (okay, she might compete for the top platform, but you definitely control the side ones better). Though I can't claim that I have the matchup knowledge to consistently deal with ZSS's recovery, she's also a character who is hurt more by lava rises than Mario.
 

vato_break

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Matador do i do good vs. ZSS? lmao because i have no clue! i feel like ZSS is easier as mario than metaknight though, the pieces make or break mk but vatos mario breaks the ZSS's!
 

Matador

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Matador do i do good vs. ZSS? lmao because i have no clue! i feel like ZSS is easier as mario than metaknight though, the pieces make or break mk but vatos mario breaks the ZSS's!
I think you do, lol.

Specifically, you were able to abuse your CQC options everytime you got close. You did that really well, IMO.
 

HeroMystic

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It wouldn't be my first choice but I see no problem with it. The top platform doesn't play that big of a role unless you're Xero and spam Up-B.

If you're planning on crouching to dodge her moves the stage could make that a problem, but that's nitpicky.
 

Matador

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Yoshi's isn't too bad.

As far as neutrals go, she can do silly things on pretty much all of them because of her platform pressure and zoning. Any stage where you feel that you can circumvent that, then go for it...even SV.

On Yoshi's, you're dealing with the platform pressure, the zoning, the slightly smaller blastzones, and the two platforms on the sides. If you feel that the advantages that Mario gains will help deal with these things, then go for it.
 

Matador

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Edit @ A2: Brinstar may work out if you aren't constantly chasing Zerosuit around the stage and just make her chase you.

The pillars on the side platforms offer her a keep-away buff since she can run behind them and sideB through them while the pillar eats the fireball. The closer blastzones (especially the ceiling) also make her aerial chasing even more dangerous since she'll kill earlier.

Even if she misses aerials when you're above her, if upB snags you and pulls you to the top platform, she can punish you even from a tech/techroll.

Then there's the armor pieces...they last forever here due to the hurtboxes on the stage...they're constantly bouncing around on something.

I suck on Brinstar, so I can't in good conscience say "This stage is bad for Mario in X and Y match-ups"...Just saying she gets her fair share of advantages here too.
 

KMFBrawler

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Brinstar is probably great against her. You abuse the platforms far more effectively than she does (okay, she might compete for the top platform, but you definitely control the side ones better). Though I can't claim that I have the matchup knowledge to consistently deal with ZSS's recovery, she's also a character who is hurt more by lava rises than Mario.
True, but why do you think the side ledges give mario more advantage than ZSS?
 

A2ZOMG

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Because Mario can fireball camp on them? It's like being allowed to platform camp on Smashville 100% of the time. Everyone knows that Mario camping on Smashville's platform is annoying. Now let's add the fact Brinstar is a smaller stage, and that the PLATFORMS ARE ALWAYS THERE. Now it's not just annoying. It's actually super legit.
 

KMFBrawler

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Because Mario can fireball camp on them? It's like being allowed to platform camp on Smashville 100% of the time. Everyone knows that Mario camping on Smashville's platform is annoying. Now let's add the fact Brinstar is a smaller stage, and that the PLATFORMS ARE ALWAYS THERE. Now it's not just annoying. It's actually super legit.
That's true, but I think ZSS won't have too much trouble with a whole bunch of fireballs here. With her agility, she can just jump over them and get to Mario quickly.
 
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True, but why do you think the side ledges give mario more advantage than ZSS?
Cuz Mario have the faster aerials and should able to rack up more damage quickly than ZSS, her Jab attacks are somewhat useless on that stage. Her Down B barely support her unless she's any platform which we should possibly easily to avoid, but overall, we should have a possible good advantage to beat her.
 

NickRiddle

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Because Mario can fireball camp on them? It's like being allowed to platform camp on Smashville 100% of the time. Everyone knows that Mario camping on Smashville's platform is annoying. Now let's add the fact Brinstar is a smaller stage, and that the PLATFORMS ARE ALWAYS THERE. Now it's not just annoying. It's actually super legit.
Brinstar is ZSS's best level.
Just throwing this out there.
D-smash on the platforms stops ANY soft of approach from below.
The lava helps us more than it hurts us, as we now don't HAVE to go for the ledge. We can let lava hit us, and just land on-stage.

Cuz Mario have the faster aerials and should able to rack up more damage quickly than ZSS, her Jab attacks are somewhat useless on that stage. Her Down B barely support her unless she's any platform which we should possibly easily to avoid, but overall, we should have a possible good advantage to beat her.
This is hilarious.
Our aerials are def. faster than yours... at least the ones we use. (uair/air)
Down-b is amazing everywhere. Frame 1 invincibility is broken as ****.
 

Juushichi

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Brinstar is ZSS's best level.
Just throwing this out there.
D-smash on the platforms stops ANY soft of approach from below.
The lava helps us more than it hurts us, as we now don't HAVE to go for the ledge. We can let lava hit us, and just land on-stage.

This is hilarious.
Our aerials are def. faster than yours... at least the ones we use. (uair/(b?)air)
Down-b is amazing everywhere. Frame 1 invincibility is broken as ****.
It's true, I really don't like taking ZSS to Brinstar. Comparing between the two OH SZ's I have played (Lokii and Sole), Loki used Down-B a lot more which was disorienting.

Zamus has more than enough speed and range to harrass us from about anywhere. What fireballs can somewhat stuff (but more like hinder) are ZS's landings with moves, particularly with b-reversed Paralyzer and whatever side b is called.

I think we as Mario lose this at about -1, but I've never played a ZS of around PatG's level or above. Dunno where Y.b.M.'s stacks up to NR's but I mean... NR's just about an S-class player. Y.b.M. is probably an A or B-class.
 

A2ZOMG

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Brinstar is ZSS's best level.
Just throwing this out there.
D-smash on the platforms stops ANY soft of approach from below.
The lava helps us more than it hurts us, as we now don't HAVE to go for the ledge. We can let lava hit us, and just land on-stage.
If we are talking the context of the Mario matchup, Mario can pressure from directly below ZSS with D-air and doesn't need to get hit by D-smash (hell he can just wait it out, and simply pressure ZSS's shield for free and on a read capitalize on anything she does to squirm out of this frametrap). Furthermore he hardly needs to approach anyone on Brinstar when he can control the entire stage with fireballs.

Furthermore, I don't see why not having to go for the ledge is a big deal in this matchup. Actually not having a lot of options to avoid getting hit by lava rises means free damage that Mario doesn't need to worry about before going for kills. Keep in mind Mario's B-throw actually is more than viable for kills on Brinstar.

idk about you saying Brinstar is ZSS's best stage. I'm just going to say Mario benefits from it far more than anyone else besides basically Metaknight.

This is hilarious.
Our aerials are def. faster than yours... at least the ones we use. (uair/air)
Down-b is amazing everywhere. Frame 1 invincibility is broken as ****.
You're silly and don't know what you're talking about. Except for the frame 1 invincibility. Yeah like that is just stupidly disorienting.
 

NickRiddle

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If we are talking the context of the Mario matchup, Mario can pressure from directly below ZSS with D-air and doesn't need to get hit by D-smash (hell he can just wait it out, and simply pressure ZSS's shield for free and on a read capitalize on anything she does to squirm out of this frametrap). Furthermore he hardly needs to approach anyone on Brinstar when he can control the entire stage with fireballs.I guess I need to play more Marios. How, praytell, do you control the entire stage with fireballs? It's not the fastest projectile...

Furthermore, I don't see why not having to go for the ledge is a big deal in this matchup. Actually not having a lot of options to avoid getting hit by lava rises means free damage that Mario doesn't need to worry about before going for kills. Keep in mind Mario's B-throw actually is more than viable for kills on Brinstar.

You're silly and don't know what you're talking about. Except for the frame 1 invincibility. Yeah like that is just stupidly disorienting.So you're telling me your aerials are faster than frame... 6 or 8 for our bair, and 3 or 4 for our uair? Damn, your frame data is sick.
Also, for the first comment, we're obviously only d-smashing if you're not above us. If you ARE above us, we'll beat everything you have with uair. (Uair beats MK's dair clean, so your dair should be a piece of cake.)
 

A2ZOMG

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Please don't insert replies in quotes. It's annoying when I'm trying to arrange my own replies.

Yes you have to actually THINK before attempting to punish ZSS's D-smash from below, but I'm explaining that it's not actually a wise option against Mario if he understands how to platform pressure.

Define fast. In terms of spammability, Mario's projectiles are above average in terms of frame data. In terms of mobility, they don't move that fast, but that's not really a bad thing since they're out for a while. More important is the fact that Mario can harass people from pretty much any angle with fireballs, and it's not exactly easy to punish him for side platform camping.

And Mario's aerials are faster.

ZSS frame data checked on PSA:
U-air:
start 4
IASA after 33

B-air:
start 8
IASA after 37

Mario frame data checked on PSA:
U-air:
start 4
IASA after 29

D-air:
start 5 (final hit on 25)
IASA after 37

B-air:
start 6
IASA after 33
 

Matador

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The problem I have with taking ZSS to brinstar is her aerials and aerial mobility. They seem like they pose a huge threat to our camping.

All of her aerials beat fireballs...so a well-timed fullhop fair would kill the fireball, hit us, and position us offstage in one fell swoop. I only ever use fireballs in this match-up to zone and approach. Never tried using it for stage control and camping in this match-up on this stage.

On top of her other advantages on this stage, I think she may actually beat us here.
 

A2ZOMG

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I really don't think that's as big of a problem as it looks, I mean a lot of aerials beat fireballs, but I feel like I never really have trouble getting away with fireball camping on Brinstar just given that the options to punish it are so much more limited. If you're in trouble on a platform, you shouldn't really be afraid of blocking, unless it's against Metaknight. Blocking on a platform is pretty bad against him. Still sucks to an extent against characters like G&W, Mario, and maybe Luigi who have tools to virtually safely frametrap escape options out of shield. Against almost anyone else, it's usually safe to jump out of shield and proceed to camp some more after resetting your spacing.

Most characters especially do not like the fact that there is no ground to land on immediately below the side platforms on Brinstar. This means the commitment of getting under with a U-air is usually much greater for them and leaves them in a position where they cannot land immediately to reset their spacing (this also means that a lot of characters lose the option of U-tilt/U-smash for platform pressure). Relying on sideways aerials for platform pressure is by far much less safe and usually by far much less effective for actually pressuring for most characters (keep this in mind! I get B-throw kills on this stage quite frequently to a small extent because of this). For Mario though, he's a character who really isn't hurt at all by this. His low platform pressure is still amazing even without solid ground directly below to reset his spacing, because he has an immediate air followup that reliably covers jump out of shield.

The problems characters have controlling Brinstar's platforms all basically apply to ZSS. The only special thing you really have to worry about to some extent when dealing with platforms is that she can reach the top platform from the ground with U-smash. And D-smash platform shenanigans aren't going to change the fact that Mario is better at breaking defenses of platform campers than most characters.

Plus, people really need to understand that Mario is amazing during lava rises. His U-smash is basically perfect for killing people who have to land on the same platform he's standing on. Mario also doesn't really get ***** by that tactic compared to most characters due to his ability to Cape Stall.
 

Matador

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Can't Mario Upb out of ZSS's dash attack lock?
As far as I can tell, it only works if they screw up (and there's small margin for error, so I recommend mashing upB) the lock.

I dunno the frame data though.
 

Matador

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I mean...there's more. It's hard to cover it all without questions tho.

Like moves that you should, under no circumstance, try to punish the ending lag of...

Dsmash for example. Slow start-up, but has very little ending lag. Even on a whiff, given her range and the damage risked if you screw up, punishment still isn't realistic.

Her downB is invincible on start-up...can only hit her out of it during the attack...which is much more annoying than it sounds.

Dtilt ordinarily has low, but noticable ending lag...but her 1frame jab covers this well.

Her sideB Punishable if she whiffs it due to you being too close...deceptive ending lag though.

Her 100%+ ledge attack is ****in' stupid...still haven't found a reliable way to deal with this. Just know the hitbox is MUCH larger than it appears.

The list is even longer if the ZSS incorporates SH retreating sideB...even whiffed jabs are punished by this.

However, there's also a few moves that are free to like...any smash OOS.

Some examples:

Utilt. Will usually follow an airdodge to bait and punish YOU for trying to follow their airdodge. Just run up and shield. If you shield the utilt, do whatever you want to punish...just don't try to space an fsmash. Go for the sourspot.

DownB kick Try to make her whiff this. It has a ton of shield stun and pushes you pretty far on block...I think the only way to punish it OOS is a stutter-stepped fsmash. If she whiffs it onstage though, there's a ton of punishable lag. Punish with anything.

Fsmash. One of ZSS's few genuinely bad moves. You can punish with pretty much anything OOS due to its high ending lag and low shield push. This hits rather far behind her too though, so be careful of that.

Pivot grabs. It's no secret that ZSS's grab isn't too good...but there are circumstances where she is move likely to use it than normal. One such circumstance is when baiting an airdodge/spotdodge. This'll usually come after a dtilt, utilt, dash attack, or jab. Just look out for this...then punish with anything after she whiffs.

Hopefully this stuff wasn't already super obvious and I actually helped somebody with this info, lol.
 

Inferno3044

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@Nick - Mario actually has pretty good frame data. But that's about all that he has that's good XD

@A2 - I would trust Nick Riddle on how his character works. He does place well on a national level and is the best Zamus
besides Snakeee
 

A2ZOMG

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Since when was I saying I didn't trust Nick Riddle? I'm going to call him out on nonsense like I will when talking to anyone else. Chances are like many people, he lacks information on Mario.
 
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