Match-Up Discussion: Meta Knight

[KillerJawz]

How do we win?
What do we watch out for?
Stages to BAN/CP?
Tips/Tricks when fighting this character?
Videos?
MU classification?




Remember, we are not using the "mu ratio" scheme anymore. Describe the MU using the following MU classifications:


Heavy Disadvantage
Disadvantage
Slight Disadvantage
Even
Slight Advantage
Advantage
Heavy Advantage

 

[Hive]

please let this be the thread where we stop pretending this matchup is remotely winnable for samus...

 

[KillerJawz]

Perhaps you could try giving some input rather then mindless dribble. We know already that the Match-Up is bad for Samus, but we all have different views on how it can be played, and how well we actually do in this Match-Up. That being said, I can't give input on this Match-Up until I play more Meta Knights because I'm simply terrible at this Match-Up.

Noid has a very useful section in his diary about this Match-Up, that's probably the best place to start with this.

 

[Hive]

I have given input on this matchup in the past... and in the same place you referenced. Its hard to give specific matchup advice though, since gaining advantages is centered around hopefully finding and exploiting player specific flaws in the metaknight players game in certain gameplay areas which tend to have a high degree of variance. IE matchup advice centers around playing samus to her full potential against mks that have trouble in certain areas.
tbh if samus does well in this matchup I just haven't seen it demonstrated by samus mains yet, even the 50th ranked metaknights seem to still be beating out the top three ranked samuses, not to say the top ranked metaknights.

 

[KillerJawz]

I have given input on this matchup in the past... and in the same place you referenced.

Then paste it here? People are not going to go around looking for match up advice for Meta Knight in places that are not specific to Meta Knight

Its hard to give specific matchup advice though, since gaining advantages is centered around hopefully finding and exploiting player specific flaws in the metaknight players game in certain gameplay areas which tend to have a high degree of variance.

Then attempt to with the best of your abilities. You quite clearly know a lot about this match up.

tbh if samus does well in this matchup I just haven't seen it demonstrated by samus mains yet, even the 50th ranked metaknights seem to still be beating out the top three ranked samuses, not to say the top ranked metaknights.

Give examples of what you're talking about then.

 

[Throwback]

Heavy Disadvantage, and I've only fought bad metaknights

 

[Serris]

I'd place her at Disadvantage. Three words of wisdom from everyone's favorite rabbit:

"Use bombs wisely."

They can work in our favor, but the timing is often situational.

 

[LanceStern]

I gotta write up... but heavy disadvantage.

It is possible to get him to last stock, but a lot of things work against us, and it takes some unbelievable play, predicting and spacing to get him.

 

[pwned-by-the-poob]

In my opinion, patience is probably the biggest thing in this matchup. I was facing a meta knight yesterday in allisbrawl, he wasn't bad but he was spamming tornado like crazy(it had to be around 5 in a row at one point). However, instead of getting frustrated I kept my patience and forced myself to stay focused. He might have been able to land many tornados and rack up damage, but when i was at the right percent to be killed he had trouble getting that final hit in. I noticed he was trying to go for the kill so I took advantage of it and that was my way of catching up percentage-wise, since people tend to get anxious to get that final hit and that's when they make more mistakes. Another thing to remember is to not get anxious to get the kill yourself, even if you are losing.
Well hopefully u guys understand what i'm saying and can add on to it. I was basically just rambling(but with thought). lol

 

[Rohins]

Heavy Disadvantage

A MK can effectively react to any of Samus' moves and punish if he is in range. Samus' ability to keep MK at bay is minimized when the MK knows how to get through missiles and zair. The key to winning this matchup is having your opponent underestimate you or have less understanding of the game than you.

Things to avoid:
Being in your shield
Being above MK
Being air-borne within MK's dash range
MK's tornado
Being off the level

Things to do:
If you can predict MK's dsmash you can time a short hop dair at the same time and hit him
If MK is wasting jumps very low off the level you can run off dair for the kill
If MK doesn't respect bombs you can get some free damage
Bombs break tornados, while not very easy to apply it is something to remember

Pretty much all the things to do I listed only work if the MK has little experience vs Samus or isn't very good at the game.

I look forward to reading more knowledgeable posts on the matchup.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Let's talk about it.

I don't think this matchup is utterly terrible, though it is rather bad. Capitalizing on Meta Knight's grab attempts is hard when he can decide not to move toward you and then punish harshly. Using Bombs indiscriminately can give him the opportunity he needs to glide or run up and N-Air, but if he doesn't see them coming, they're pretty useful for limiting his movement and forcing a standstill, however short it may be.

What are our ledge options against Meta Knight?

 

[AgentObvious]

What are our ledge options against Meta Knight?

There are none.

 

[Throwback]

Yeah you have to fight this MU on-stage otherwised it's even worse for Samus. I've had the most success playing aggressively. If you can get in his face then it can be possible to force a lot of 50/50 situations. Not easy though.

 

[kismet2]

the most practical things i see in this matchup are heat seeking missles, zair, and running

 

[NO-IDea]

Running away? Towards? Walking?

 

[kismet2]

running away lol that's all samus can really do but she's good at it

 

[Throwback]

Zair sucks because it requires a short-hop and it doesn't beat tornado. Missiles suck because it requires a short-hop. Running sucks because samus is far slower than MK.

I will give you that zair/missiles are good (missiles extremely so) when you have the space, but I'm not sure why you think that's going to happen against a competent player.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Since you can drop a bomb at any point in your run, it allows you to try and give yourself time to set up missiles or at least take a breath. I find that running is often the best follow-up to a jab. Mixing up bomb timing and other attacks is key, though, because if Meta Knight just sees you doing that, he'll bumrush you out of it, which at least gives you opportunities to grab him or make him do unsafe things.

 

[kismet2]

Zair sucks because it requires a short-hop and it doesn't beat tornado. Missiles suck because it requires a short-hop. Running sucks because samus is far slower than MK.

I will give you that zair/missiles are good (missiles extremely so) when you have the space, but I'm not sure why you think that's going to happen against a competent player.

lol can't you hit the top of nado to beat it? missiles definitely do not suck in this matchup. you have both super and heat seeking(although you generally want to stick to heat seeking to slow down mk). with heat seeking missiles you can limit what an mk wants to do whether it's dair camp or just trying to keep a midrange game against you. running is amazing and being slower doesn't really mean anything, i wasn't referring to abusing speed but rather you get more opportunities to punish an mk if they try to approach because you have answers to these approaches. if this "competent" player doesn't want to give you the room then you can pivot grab or screw attack if tries to dash attack or something. samus sucks balls in close combat why not just abuse the zoning and camping that makes her at least decent.

EDIT: tl;dr brawl's a game about camping, most competent players aren't going to rush you down. for those who will attempt to rush a samus will find it's not that easy for she has options to counter most approaches, which will make them rethink their approaches more and you'll get more breathing room. if they don't stop rushing then they'll be at a disadvantage most of the time.

 

[NO-IDea]

It's always interesting to see other players, especially high tier and high calibur players, view Samus the way you do.

DI up the first hit of tornado and Samus can falling n-air on MK.

 

[IsmaR]

^I've been waiting for that. My 2nd favorite use of N-air by far.

 

[NO-IDea]

What's the first?

 

[Throwback]

lol can't you hit the top of nado to beat it? missiles definitely do not suck in this matchup. you have both super and heat seeking(although you generally want to stick to heat seeking to slow down mk). with heat seeking missiles you can limit what an mk wants to do whether it's dair camp or just trying to keep a midrange game against you. running is amazing and being slower doesn't really mean anything, i wasn't referring to abusing speed but rather you get more opportunities to punish an mk if they try to approach because you have answers to these approaches. if this "competent" player doesn't want to give you the room then you can pivot grab or screw attack if tries to dash attack or something. samus sucks balls in close combat why not just abuse the zoning and camping that makes her at least decent.

EDIT: tl;dr brawl's a game about camping, most competent players aren't going to rush you down. for those who will attempt to rush a samus will find it's not that easy for she has options to counter most approaches, which will make them rethink their approaches more and you'll get more breathing room. if they don't stop rushing then they'll be at a disadvantage most of the time.

Do you understand how zair/HMC work? There is a distance from which it's unsafe to use these moves because of how they extend samus' arm and because she has to SH. That distance is short if the opponent is tall & slow (ganon, bowser, samus) and it's pretty damn long if the opponent is short & fast & has a long dash attack like MK. Good luck spamming those things against an MK who knows the samus MU.

Samus is a zoning character, which basically means she can attack at range but is horrible on defence. Good players know that getting close to samus is how you win. Conversely, samus has to play offense to create the space she requires to start her zoning (and as noted, she needs more space to zone MK than she does a lot of other characters). So no, running away doesn't work until you have created space and even then it's pretty horrible against MK who is short and has great ground speed.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Do you understand how zair/HMC work? There is a distance from which it's unsafe to use these moves because of how they extend samus' arm and because she has to SH. That distance is short if the opponent is tall & slow (ganon, bowser, samus) and it's pretty damn long if the opponent is short & fast & has a long dash attack like MK. Good luck spamming those things against an MK who knows the samus MU.

Samus is a zoning character, which basically means she can attack at range but is horrible on defence. Good players know that getting close to samus is how you win. Conversely, samus has to play offense to create the space she requires to start her zoning (and as noted, she needs more space to zone MK than she does a lot of other characters). So no, running away doesn't work until you have created space and even then it's pretty horrible against MK who is short and has great ground speed.

Bombs help that, though you cannot be predictable with them. You have to abuse the few close-range options she has (I'm of the mind that her jab isn't -that- bad), and Z-Air can manage if the opponent doesn't just read it or is within range of your outstretched arm.

 

[LanceStern]

A MK that knows the matchup knows how to get by zair unfortunately.

 

[Throwback]

Bombs help that, though you cannot be predictable with them. You have to abuse the few close-range options she has (I'm of the mind that her jab isn't -that- bad), and Z-Air can manage if the opponent doesn't just read it or is within range of your outstretched arm.

Jab has 0 frames of hitstun. That's right, ZERO. So yes it is -that- bad. Zair is not a close-range option by any stretch of the imagination.

Samus' main issue is when she gets stuck in her shield. Her short-hop is low so often she can't even jump over regular attacks, and upB is baitable & infinitely punishable. Dtilt is fast but again, very very punishable.

Without getting into too much detail, samus CAN counter anything any other character can do up close, but it's often damn hard and regularly involves a guess. She fares far better taking control of the match and reacting to her opponent's defense than reacting to their offense. That's very difficult to do, more so against short, fast, lag-free characters with good vertical spacing and long range.

 

[AgentObvious]

It's like if the MK doesn't know the MU you might be able to get a few hits on him and perhaps take a stock or two but you won't win. I played this match-up vs Orion a few days ago and I only took maybe 1 stock or got him to high percent first stock once he knew how the match-up worked. At first it went okay I guess, but mostly because he didn't know how to fight Samus at all.

 

[NO-IDea]

I understand pessimism, but trying to rely on gimmicks and spam and then crying foul is wrong. You should focus on strengthening your fundamentals so you have a foundation to rely on, no matter what the MU.

For this MU, zoning is definitely the most important. Range-wise, Samus has answers to many of MK's approaches with definitive, solid options to rely on... except maybe tornado, where it's very situational.

D-tilt is MK's best shield poke. When you're put in that position, your best answer would be between jumping oos back and rolling, both subpar. It's a scenario Samus tends to lose.

But MK's d-tilt also has little hitstun when it doesn't trip, and at higher percents is not as easy to link into a follow-up. If you have fast enough reactions, at close range you can jab it, at far range you can d-tilt it. And you can also outrange it with your own f-tilt.

F-tilt can be outranged with your own. D-air camping can be countered with homing missiles and patience. He has to land, you can punish most of his fast horizontal momentum shifts with z-air, punish his landings on platforms with aerials, pre-emptively hit him with up+b (if sheik, falco and zss can counter d-air camping, samus definitely can with less risk involved.)

Then there's tornado. Most and I mean nearly all MKs can't tornado perfectly. There are key things to note. If the MK comes at you with the early hitboxes of tornado ast a fast pace, you can DI up, get knocked upward and break tornado with n-air, often leading into anothert follow-up for you. If he retreats early and is in position to lag cancel the tornado, charge up so that retreat doesn't become an option next time. If he retreats but doesn't have room or time to cancel lag, you have dash attack, dash grab, super missile. If he tries to cancel on top of you, up+b covers both sides. It's your responsibility to react, it's a four frame window.

If he nados correctly, it won't come as fast but you also won't be knocked upward if the nado connects. If you react fast enough, you can however full hop back and nair, try to zair the top, utilt, bomb; this is all dependent on the space and time available.

And above all else, if it does come too fast, perfect shield and tilt up.

Perfect shield approaching is overrated. MK's risk reward for getting it right is not as lopsided as Snake for example. You have plenty of mixups, between wearing down his shield with projetiles (this includes charge shots, uncharged, half charged, tempo shift is important), spacing f-tilt (d-tilt and d-smash have special circumstances outside of just punishing for use as zoning), foxtrotting or walking back, dash attack, dash grab.

Play smarter. Homing cancel gimmicks aren't going to work if you abuse them. Z-air camping won't work alone. You need to heavily concentrate on your shield pressure play without exposing yourself (yes, I've practically defined what zoning is... But it needs to be said because I'm a hundred percent certain you guys don't abuse shield habits.)

Just refine your skills as a player before you complain or how else do you plan to improve?

If you ever get to the point where it feels beating MK is possible, then I can discuss more subtle things like how to space and time a d-air against double u-air, how disjointed u-smash can be against d-air, shield poking with the samus FIRE style, spiking MK's typical u-air to tornado recovery from the ledge...

Samus is fun, especially when you pull off cool **** like that and win because of it. But seriously, you've got to first learn that Samus zoning isn't just projectiles and walling.

 

[Throwback]

Samus zoning isn't just projectiles and walling.

Which is exactly what I've been trying to say.