Meta Match Up Discussion - Marth/Lucina

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***I'm putting them together as I doubt most non-mains have experience against Lucina specifically to warrant her own thread. If there are any major disagreements a separate thread can be easily made.***

General Rules:

• No Flaming. Respect the opinions of others even if you disagree. Let's not get heated on an online forum for a family-friendly game. Failure to abide by this will result in the wrath of the law.
• Human error isn't something worth serious consideration. Discussions will assume both characters are being played to utmost potential.

The following are suggested subtopics of conversation:

• Character strengths and weaknesses
• How to effectively approach/deter approaches
• Off-stage game
• Positional play
• Punishes/punishing
• Specific moves/strings that are strong for both characters
• Suggested custom movesets
• Stage strengths and weaknesses
• Overall score [NOTE: THIS IS NOT AS IMPORTANT DURING THE FIRST ROUND OF DISCUSSION]

***For general questions not related to the current topic in this thread please use the General Match Up thread.***

This thread shall last for around 8-9 days, with the next thread opening up in about 5-7 days.

 

[ShowTime6Fro]

When it comes to Neutral I think the best thing to do is either wait for there approach and disable OOS or roll and dash grab, or approach with reverse Nair; which can lead to footstool disable or a tilt into combo. And, because Marth/Lucina don't have good downward priority, stages like battlefield and town and city would be good counter picks.

 

[xMeowMC]

My experience in this MU is to stay defensive and wait for openings, since marth and lucina almost match our range it's hard to get through sometimes

 

[Shaya]

I play a bit of Mewtwo and even a larger share of Marth.
The characters share similar designs and option intentions (I don't mind going into depth on this one, but Mewtwo plays very much like a 'swordsman').

In terms of the MU, I think this has to be one of the more difficult ones for Mewtwo to handle; wouldn't be confident to say a disadvantage (Mewtwo is very good), but it's no walk in the park.
The difficulties are similar to that of Cloud - disjoints and KO power, but with less room for gimping / stage traversing combos (Dolphin Slash breaking through, f5 frontal up air), but easier to deal with end lag in his actions (no extreme duration on any moves bar Neutral Air's f6-21) and is less mobile.

In terms of dtilts, Mewtwo's is slightly longer range still I believe, but Marth's will be setting the pace more reliably due to disjoint - most characters can't really challenge well spaced M2 down tilt but this doesn't apply as easily to Marth.
He also can use dancing blade's transcended priority to beat pokes like dtilt at mid range.

Both characters die to each other at similar percent with up throws (obviously leaning towards M2 a bit), but a 100%ish rage and 110-120% opponent means the next grab for either will be a stock.

Mewtwo's floatiness makes it difficult for Marth to find jab follow ups compared to most of the cast, he tends to be able to air dodge or jump through a lot of follow ups - but the Marth player will stay try to trap/punish out of it, it's not a pleasant move to be hit by.

In terms of neutral otherwise, Marth wants to be at mid range and he wants Mewtwo to jump. It's precarious for him to get through shadowball (especially on the charge release due to it's unreactable start up), but he can SHAD (or lol PHASE) through when he jumps kinda close to avoid it, and he can avoid being hit at the apex of his short hop depending on the charge / a bit of luck. He can pressure with rising full hop fair and avoid shadowball too, but if M2 is ready for that and dashes after him, he's in trouble.

 

[Floor]

Made one awhile ago for M2 against Marcina.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1R2msbBDYm4c3-wmiN0Jabegr4181Xf2iy4My-dW9u8g/edit?usp=sharing

Written from perspective of a Lucina/Marcina player