Match-Up Discussion: Lucario

[Steam]

It was just two pages of posts not being understood. :I

but yeah it was stupid. I'll leave now lol.

 

[hichez50]

Whenever I play a peach thats really good at the match-up or raz I ****ing HATE losing the 1st stock, like, even more then usual. because peach can easily rack a quick 0-50% or even 70ies in a few seconds, and when she's back all her moves are fresh again so she doesn't have to worry too much about staling her killers too badly <_<

if you're both playing it right-ish though whenever I die I usually have your damage racked high enough that a uptilt kills 150+%-ish on FD/SV/BF not like landing uptilt is easy on peach. we're not snake.

You are correct about the 150%+ percent kills for peach but that is pretty **** high. I would say that the match up is 60-40 lucarios favor with any stage that lucario can camp her. Mostly single platform stages. Lucario's simply have to stay above her and peach really can't do much. I have read some of the work around and maybe 55-45 lucarios favor on any other stage. I find it odd that peach gets the advantage if she gets the first kill. While naturally peach scenarios improves mostly likely peach will be at high enough killing % to kill around 30-40% with lucario. Then even after lucario gets the kill we can go aggro and make the stock percent even again leaning the game back into lucarios favor.

 

[phi1ny3]

I treat this MU like Wario, except AS and bair becomes more useful than against her while fsmash and fair become harder to land on her.

Don't try to fsmash her onstage unless you made a footsie and she thinks she can punish, if you're against a good peach, you'll whiff every time.

don't force the kill lucarios, can't stress that.

Umm, bair and retreat SH nair is good for Lucario to help with spacing and preventative measure

I get the most kills with AS and uair (and sometimes dair, bair, and nair at later percents) in this MU, this MU really forces both players to grind down and play meticulously.

Recover high, otherwise you'll face the wrath of turnip edgeguarding.

Don't be stupid with dair, Peach's utilt/usmash are really good.

I want my revenge on Prax if he comes to TP Portland (namesearch this dude)

55:45 Lucario, merely because Lucario can afford to lose a stock more than Peach can. tbh actually, both characters can screw each other pretty badly when up a stock though. Peach's spacing tools too good though, it's like fighting marth except fsmash is harder to land with outside of a read or ledgeguarding. Peach is different from a lot of the other characters that can't kill lucario because she's actually good at avoiding the risk inherited with fighting Lucario with a range disadvantage, since her niche of fighting as a space controller is much better than a traditional rushdown bait-n-punish char like Sonic or Sheik, similar in some ways to Diddy, except Diddy will punish your everything on block with a banana throw lol.

best video demonstration to date:
Lee Martin v. Praxis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14ShTVN7EhU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL7_NU0agrU&feature=related
I loved how despite Lee's general inexperience in the MU (at least I think he's inexperienced in this specific one), he handled the concept of item use very well (using turnip + AS in tandem was nice). Praxis was a good example of how to make lucario's traditional zoning aerials and tools hard to land, and forced Lee to become more predictable and bring out different options.

@FWK yes, it reminds me a lot of Diddy v. DDD in several ways. Or perhaps my least favorite, Snake v. DDD >:

 

[Praxis]

Lucario's terrible and mad easy to two stock. You're all bad and should feel bad.

G2G about to drive in a blizzard.

 

[phi1ny3]

But Prax, you lost to one when knowing arguably the most about the MU (after bragging about it x number of times), if you 0-2'd against a 65:35 MU, what does that make you?


and come to TP on the 18th!

 

[Praxis]

I taught Lee Martin how to play Peach nub. I two stocked Junebug :D (mad cool guy too)

Peach vs Lucario = first stock wins, no joke.

 

[Meru.]

EDIT: .... 65:35? MTI REALLY?

Spoiler

What match-up experience do you even have outside of wifi peach? No offense to ill or anyone you play, but I don't think your region has a peach and peach requires so much precision that you can't even BEGIN to make assumptions on this MU based off wifi <_< I'm getting increasingly annoyed by some of your posts but w.e.

He beat Trela once iirc. Offline.

 

[phi1ny3]

@Yaaay

I think he's referring to MythTrainer, Not Illumatic (sorry if I messed your name up :\)

Unless Trela decided to go Peach on MTI at a tournament, then lol that would be the case then.

 

[Meru.]

Oh XD. Never mind then.

 

[culexus・wau]

You are correct about the 150%+ percent kills for peach but that is pretty **** high.

**** trying to hit peach with kill moves.

you don't understand how dumb it is sometimes :>

. I would say that the match up is 60-40 lucarios favor with any stage that lucario can camp her. Mostly single platform stages. Lucario's simply have to stay above her and peach really can't do much.

wat.

but peach can yiff us if we're on top of her.

uptiltsies man.

wow that sentence looks terrible out of context

I have read some of the work around and maybe 55-45 lucarios favor on any other stage. I find it odd that peach gets the advantage if she gets the first kill. While naturally peach scenarios improves mostly likely peach will be at high enough killing % to kill around 30-40% with lucario. Then even after lucario gets the kill we can go aggro and make the stock percent even again leaning the game back into lucarios favor.

30-40%? you still need to land the kill move for starters, and most peaches rack up damage faster then that :>c

Why would you want to go aggro after killing peach? thats a one way ticket to revenge kill land, peach with fresh kill moves isn't the easiest to stay alive agaisnt.



why am I even tearing a part other lucario's mains posts.

shouldn't I be doing this to peaches?

orz

Agreed with most things phil said.

this isn't like DDD snake at all though at least that one ends in 8 minutes

 

[phi1ny3]

Not if the Snake goes camping all day on SV

and yes, it's all about getting them aerials to kill, or hoping peach freezes up on a moment for fsmash/usmash, otherwise it's pretty hard to land a kill move. I do feel however that Peach has less to take Lucario to than what Lucario can take Peach to for improved odds. But that only really matters if you've won round 1 or not.

@Prax: Junebug can lose to jigglypuff for all I care (oh wait, he did, unfortunately he didn't really care so it's a moot point), doesn't mean he played the MU right

 

[culexus・wau]

Peach can mix up a lot more then lucario can in this MU

We're pretty linear in what we can do but our tools are solid enough to give us a slight edge I think.


it shouldn't matter if both players are good at the MU though.

both sides will get ***** by the other side if one knows the MU and the other doesn't.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Questions for darksies though, maybe other peaches too, but mostly dark.pch.

1.
tl;dr explain further on nair ****** lucario up close.

2. How does lucario having a charged AS result in peach outcamping him? You didn't really go into detail on this.
does this extend to half or nearly full charge AS as well? I've never played a peach that tried to just throw turnips at me, lead or no lead so I'm genuinely curious.

and 2 questions for darkies only.

Spoiler

3. What do you think the zss s-f-p vs peach MU is? do you think its stupid that he thinks its 65-35 peach favor?

4. Where did you get that snazzy beret you wearing at apex?

Can't you guys get along :x these are meant to be Match-up Discussions not Match-up Debates ><

Character pride I guess lol

1- Up close if you go in , you beat all of kucarios moves. Or at worst trade hits, Nof if you do space it on his shield, Lucario can't follow up with anything, He can't punished it. Also if you space ground float Nairs to a jab (s)/ jab cancels. Only option he has to stop it all or break free is roll.

2- The Peach you never played is how I do it. Now if he has it charged. He can't just go on and on tossing aura. Really if he is saving it for the kill. So if he has it charged, I am not gonna approach him. he lost is rights to do damage from a distance. All I will do is create my wall. with turnips and air attacks with a touch of pressures if he gets to close. get my hits in then just bounce. And if I have the lead, he cant just sit back and rack up damage from distance like if he was Falco, triforce kids, samus, etc. He has to come to me and get the hits up close. He can charge after he shoots it but that takes time and the ONLT projectile he has to shoot off. While I have a versitale one that I can play and do so much with.

Spoiler

3 I can read this dude and bait him. And abuse his habits hard. so thats why he says that. but I then played other/better ZSS and I do the same thing to them. If Peach pressures ZSS correctly, she can't do ****. And is forced to roll. Then if I read it, its more damage. Peach can easlily gimp her too. I sayPeach beats her. Not sure by THAT much though. I need to kick nick riddles ***.

4- Time sq, NYC. Cool store called "conway' Pretty damm sexy right.

And there is so much here for me to corected from these new dudes posting (not you Flame) But man, I don't even wanna do this anymore. The only match up debate that was omg annoying like this was Peach Vs Pika a while back. Someone should have gave me a medal for going through that /

 

[culexus・wau]

I can agree with those things I guess. I'm more of a toss AS's and forget about it type of guy though lol.

Don't forget that lucarios have jump and airdodge though for escaping that bad spot where normally we'd roll/sidestep [jab will hit us out of the jump though, I don't think its possible to react to jump start-up though LOL, maybe your tilts can too but idk the frame data on that ]

its a pretty niche option, and everyone seems to forget that we can nair/dair/DT out of the airdodge.


We should do some friendlies at whobo

 

[Dark.Pch]

Ok Now while this is being said, I can bring stuff up too. Which just leads to a game of rock paper scissors. None is a mind reader and can every tell what one would do. So we go by the difficulty of the things. Like How hard/easy it is to kill, edgeguard, invade, evade, etc. And add everything up. And in this match up when you do that, Lucario slightly wins.

 

[Steam]

Ok Now while this is being said, I can bring stuff up too. Which just leads to a game of rock paper scissors. None is a mind reader and can every tell what one would do. So we go by the difficulty of the things. Like How hard/easy it is to kill, edgeguard, invade, evade, etc. And add everything up. And in this match up when you do that, Lucario slightly wins.

basically what every matchup without a gimmick looks like but yeah. what he said.

and lol I'm unbearable. noice.

 

[culexus・wau]

Yeah, Yeah.

just wanted to bring it up since you didn't seem to list it down in lucario's options lol.

The RPS game in Lucario VS Peach is pretty lame/gay/fun/deep, still even-ish though, so the better person should be winning/the matches should be going either way.

Steam you kinda make me rage sometimes with your posts

at least myth makes up for his rage-inducing posts sometimes with DATA.

 

[Steam]

I didn't know this wasn't the only time I made people mad at me

 

[culexus・wau]

"Lucario would be better without Aura"

"You can't punish Phantasm with Lucario ever"

"Peach's float isn't good agaisnt lucario"


RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE

 

[Steam]

"Lucario would be better without Aura"

"You can't punish Phantasm with Lucario ever"

"Peach's float isn't good agaisnt lucario"


RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE

I said that I couldn't punish phantasm with lucario :I

and I still do think Lucario would be better if he were always at base power. shiz like the snake matchup would be tons easier.

but yeah this is the peach boards if you want to talk about it more PM me or something

 

[culexus・wau]

I just think his base power [lowest power on even stocks] needs to be not, so, bad.

thats it.

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Quick Question.

How quickly does Peach upB sweetspot the ledge?

and does it have invuln frames?

can we ghetto invincinair like MK and hit you out of it? [maybe even with dair/uair]

 

[Razmakazi]

get these furries out of here. this mu discussion has been poorly executed.

:|

 

[Metatitan]

This matchup discussion has gone to hell. It's all theorycraft and discussing mixups and approaches when people aren't approaching. Don't discuss mixups unless they're relevant in move priority. Matchup discussions should talk about what moves beat what, how to mess with recoveries, stages to counterpick/ban, OoS punishments, killing attacks, and camping.

Hell ya'll aint even discussing camping right. This is brawl; EVERYONE is going to camp. Discuss who's camp game will be more effective. When you discuss mixups (e.g. what if I toad after Fair as a mindgame?!?! HUR HUR HUR) and specific scenarios you're theorycrafting. Theorycrafting should be done only be seen by the theorycrafter as its more of a way to personally decide what to do in a situation and improve as a player. There are too many scenarios in this game to list out and it just creates drama when you do try to list them out.

tl;dr: ****ing read it. But basically MU discussions are generalities, when you get really specific you theorycraft (which helps no one but yourself really), to which people theorycraft back and it just creates drama and disorganization.

 

[¿Qué?]

I just think his base power [lowest power on even stocks] needs to be not, so, bad.

thats it.

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Quick Question.

How quickly does Peach upB sweetspot the ledge?

and does it have invuln frames?

can we ghetto invincinair like MK and hit you out of it? [maybe even with dair/uair]

I don't think you can get close enough with Dair to hit us out of our Parasol before we hit you.

She doesn't have invincibility frames, but most characters have a difficult time interrupting her recovery because of the hit boxes that are placed well above her body.


And yeah people. Options and mix ups are two entirely different things.

 

[Razmakazi]

basically, the one time Dark Pch. hasn't flamed a mu discussion, i feel that he'd actually be justified this time, this is ridiculous.

meh, this mu discussion has some good posts though so whatev.

 

[Excellence]

Match-up is determined by who's under the most pressure from stocks. If you're winning, the match-up shifts to your favor. If you're losing, it shifts to your disadvantage. Why? Because Peach has an easier time kill an aggressive Lucario and has more options for defense than she does for attacking. Peach will do tons of damage to Lucario but she doesn't have the kill moves to deal with him so he won't die and you will probably faced with a godmode Lucario. This makes it worse for Peach.

I think Peach needs to pressure and habituate Lucario into predictable patterns of response if she wants to win this. You need to make him feel like his options are limited and take advantage of them.

55 (60 if you're losing) - 45 (40 if you're losing).
45-55 if you're winning.

 

[Steam]

basically, the one time Dark Pch. hasn't flamed a mu discussion, i feel that he'd actually be justified this time, this is ridiculous.

meh, this mu discussion has some good posts though so whatev.

sorry??? :/

 

[Roxas215]

I really need help in this MU. I took Junebug to game 3.

 

[Meru.]

get these furries out of here. this mu discussion has been poorly executed.

:|

This matchup discussion has gone to hell. It's all theorycraft and discussing mixups and approaches when people aren't approaching. Don't discuss mixups unless they're relevant in move priority. Matchup discussions should talk about what moves beat what, how to mess with recoveries, stages to counterpick/ban, OoS punishments, killing attacks, and camping.

Hell ya'll aint even discussing camping right. This is brawl; EVERYONE is going to camp. Discuss who's camp game will be more effective. When you discuss mixups (e.g. what if I toad after Fair as a mindgame?!?! HUR HUR HUR) and specific scenarios you're theorycrafting. Theorycrafting should be done only be seen by the theorycrafter as its more of a way to personally decide what to do in a situation and improve as a player. There are too many scenarios in this game to list out and it just creates drama when you do try to list them out.

tl;dr: ****ing read it. But basically MU discussions are generalities, when you get really specific you theorycraft (which helps no one but yourself really), to which people theorycraft back and it just creates drama and disorganization.

Geeeeeeeez, let everyone discuss how they want to, you can't force people to discuss the way you'd like to see it. If you want it on another manner, be my guest, do it yourself. If you want to know something, ask questions.

 

[Razmakazi]

its just ppl ignoring each others' points. i've had a long day though so i was too harsh i guess.

 

[culexus・wau]

just ignore steam and MTI's non-data related posts and its all cool imo.

Any Questions you peaches might have on this MU?

 

[Roxas215]

just ignore steam and MTI's non-data related posts and its all cool imo.

Any Questions you peaches might have on this MU?

Where do you CP lucario? And what options does Peach has if Lucario lands the first stock? When playing Junebug i felt hopeless on game 3 when he took the first stock.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Where do you CP lucario? And what options does Peach has if Lucario lands the first stock? When playing Junebug i felt hopeless on game 3 when he took the first stock.

Take him to Castle Seige, it is easier top keep the pressure there. He can't relly camp you mush there. and on the second part of the stage, if you have the lead, just run/evade. It's hard for him to catch you with his speed. Yet alone hit you. The third part of the stage is just a standard fight. Till you get back to the first part of the stage. Then you has a nice advantage once again. easy to keep lucario near you and pressure, and them platforms or gonna give him the booty. her plat form game gets at Lucario.

And for that you can bring him to YI. That long platfrom helps so much on him. And of course my playground, battle field. If you nice on lylat, take him there.

For fighting this dude, Camp Lucario. And limt your air battles. He will mostly win thoses and start his combos. if you try going aggressive on him, he will just be rolling away. You can get your hits off but as soon as one of you break free from attacking range, get away from him.

You can take him to the air with good timing but the range on his moves are a lil too much and cover his front/back side. Thats why it is best you to get carried away with air battles to take uneeded damage. Jab combos work for if he wants to roll alot and you have time to react and punish. Or get away from him when he wants to roll then attack.

Dont get to combo happy on him cause they tend to get over you and Dair. And it is a hard move to beat when you are in the air under him. The sides too sometimes but depends on the angle you are too him. If you starting dishing out hits on him and he somehow gets over you try to get a nair on him, if not, just stop and get away from him.

All this is important cause as he takes more hit, he gets stronger, same time it is hard to kill him unless you do awsome edgeguarding. So he has one advantage and gains another as you pound on him. And for the risk of screwing up and dieing early, it is best you try and take the least amount of hits as possible. Cause when it is time to go in to kill him and he is at high %, it gets danagerous. And if you screw up trying to kill him and he hits you, it will hurt.

 

[culexus・wau]

Stage-Wise, its best to go wherever your comfortable with.

You don't have any REALLY hard CPs vs Lucario except in a extremely liberal ruleset [Green Greens, and thats IF we don't ban it lol] and neither do we.

I feel that peach's platform pressure game is better then lucarios, but platforms don't really affect the MU that much.

Your bans will probably be FD/Frigate/Picto depending on your style of play.

Praxis obv doesn't want to divulge his lucario slaying secrets.

THE CALLOUT

 

[Gameswithgoodies]

no he's just talking in prax.
the language where anything can be expressed in full detail in a matter of one sentence.

also i remember when playing lucario my attacks would collide with his aura balls at silly percents, the main one i remember is stopping a fully charged aura sphere when he was around 80-90% or so. do you guys have a chart of when your aura beats our moves?

 

[Praxis]

LOL someone finally figured out how to translate instead of getting fussy about how bad I must be to think it's so simple. xD

(on phone btw, expect lots of blabbing on Tuesday, my next work day)

 

[Praxis]

Also Lucario, like, never hits Peach with kill moves if handled right.

Peach never has kill moves to hit Lucario with.

Gay matchup is gay

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I truly don't know this match-up like I thought I did. I learned this the hard way.

All I can really add is to be careful of her properly spaced floats, that alone makes this hard to hit her.

 

[Praxis]

Were you one of the ones I played at Apex?

(Sorry >_< I got four hours of sleep in the entire three days and I've never done an all nighter before...and played like a dozen Lucarios, it's all kind of a blur xD )

And yeah, Peach's float and second jump are the key to the MU honestly. You can just hop or float around Lucario's huge hitboxes and hit him anyway. Most people just don't understand the hitboxes to do this. Peach's second jump outspaces Lucario's air game and her float lets her punish his kill attempts pretty hard (floating right literally on the line of the tip of his fsmash, inputting a fair, and dropping the float right as his fsmash ends is so satisfying).

The key to the MU is safe play. Not run-away camping, but a safe and slow approach based around poking, or getting near him and pelting him with turnips and reacting to his reaction, without committing because you can outspace Lucario in little ways with Peach.

In terms of how the characters space and play each other I'd honestly say the MU is even. Both characters can live to 150-180% against each other pretty regularly. But Lucario's Aura just...makes it so the Peach cannot make certain mistakes. I'd definitely say the MU is a lot more stressful to the Peach, because an accidental airdodge at mutual 150% often means instant death for Peach but not for Lucario.


tl;dr, they space each other pretty evenly but Aura is gay for Peach, 55:45 IMO, unless the Peach is me in which case Lucario is free.

 

[culexus・wau]

Praxis, 5$ MM at WGF?