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Match-Up Discussion #19: Olimar

Sesshomuronay

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 21, 2008
Messages
1,458
Location
Canada, British Columbia
This matchup is 60-40 to olimars favor. But i will assume this is a good olimar that fights out of shield mostly.

Wolf cannot outcamp a good olimar player, period. They will keep throwing pikmin and eventually run in for a grab. Most olimars you can just fair wall and win rather easily, but a very accurate camping olimar is a nightmare for wolf. You get caught in one little grab chain, and only a couple hits later an oli can already start spacing the upsmash for a kill.

Most of the strategies posted here just don't work. And if you still think it's in wolf's favour, try playing AndyG or some other olimar who will pick the blaster wall apart. Olimar can just get kills way too easily and racks up damage too quickly.
Wrong. Wolf oucamps olimar with the pistol. Just pchew pchew and any pikmin that are on you get knocked off. Just because germ(or some other wolf pro) can own any random olimar doesnt mean a thing similar to how you said those olimar players do w/e.
 

Snail

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
1,043
Location
Utrecht, The Netherlands
No, Wolf definitely has the advantage here.

It seems to me that some Wolf players here seem to be talking about Final Destination only. The blaster is a lot less of an issue on other stages, where the matchup would probably be more like 55/45 than 65/35 like some of you suggest.
 

asob4

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 14, 2007
Messages
2,968
Location
Palmdale, CA
nair approach will work great
nair leads into anything and everything we have
up smash, sweetspot dsmash, grab, up tilt, fsmash you name it

the blaster is the least of our worries
it's slow and short, very easy to avoid. only thing it really stops are latched pikmin, but returning pikmin will stop the laser

uptilt beats your fsmash and hops over your dsmash

when we see a kill move coming when we're at high percents we will WAC if possible. don't expect any WoP's any time soon against a good olimar

wolf's recovery is bad when against olimar, as any latched pikmin will stall your recovery moves allowing us to edgeguard you even better
it's works the same with fox's and falco's upb

wolf does have scary smashes and if we don't see them coming then we do get put into a bad position
we just have to be on our toes :D

55-45 either way
 

snadmonkey

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Messages
216
Location
WV
I don't use to olimars. I also almost never use blasters against them. Key is to stay up in their face, use ur fast di and quick aerials to land behind olimar and force a shield or sidestep so they can't just attack immediatly. Then once ur inside olimar use alot of grabs, Olimars tend to shield alot since they have an incredible shield grab and pretty weak tilts. If you can stay aggressive and mix up for grabs and charged smashes when he expects a grab, you'll dominate him on the ground and he'll be force to start going airborne, where wolf truely owns. Wolf lives to hihg precents and oli doesn't. Advantage wolf. Only time an olimar is even challenging is if they simply run in a circle around the stage doing nothing but run away pivot grabs, almost force you to use lasers, almost.
 

BlackWaltzX

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2007
Messages
1,013
Snad, incredibly backwards.

EDIT)) Wolf players think Olimar players are dumb.
I'll just let them say it's 100-0 in wolf's favor so people use Wolf against me so I can beat them easier than if they used someone else.
 

BlackWaltzX

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2007
Messages
1,013
The only time Olimar is a challenge is if the two are fighting normally.
When both are camping, wolf generally wins unless the olimar can time between blasters.
 

Ishiey

Mother Wolf
BRoomer
Joined
May 20, 2008
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Land's End (NorCal)
I recall wolf's jab clashing with oli's utilt, does anyone know of how bair fares against nair? But then again, if you had your back to olimar, he'd just WAC or something, so that doesn't help much. Either way, reflector goes through both... I'd think that reflector would be more useful than the blaster at higher levels of play, it counters pretty much everything if timed properly.
 

DanGR

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Apr 10, 2008
Messages
6,860
no idea what ur talking about black waltz
Like me, he's tired of trying to convince people (in general) that they're wrong about Olimar. Olimar is easily one of the least understood characters in Brawl. (if not the least understood character) He's got much more depth than any other character when it comes to understanding his priority and camping game- not to mention the pikmin specific strategies/combos/uses. It's just frustrating for us Olimar users to hear crap about say... his priority. Do any of you guys even know how to determine what a pikmin's priority will be for an attack?

(I'm sure you guys are frustrated pointing out the common misconseptions people make about Wolf's recovery as well. We've just got more to deal with.)

And for the discussion, I'd like to point out something.

Why are you guys stressing that Wolf outcamps Olimar? That's not important. So Wolf outcamps Oli. So what? Do you know what that really means? Outcamping character A with character B doesn't automatically mean that character A has to approach. Look at it more like Wolf's laser keeps Olimar from spamming his pikmin from far distances. In reality, that's ALL outcamping a character does. (assuming that character isn't slow, such as Ganon- which Olimar definitely isn't)

Having said that, it's not like Olimar has to really run in for a grab or fair or anything anyways. He can stay at fsmash range and spam grabs and fsmashes until YOU retaliate. It's not very difficult to do.

If you guys haven't noticed yet, camping is easily beaten by having range over the camper. Look at Zelda v Marth. Does it really matter that she outcamps Marth if she does poorly against his range? No. He can just use his long ranged attacks, such as fair, DB, dtilt, nair, and ftilt to get Zelda to go onto the offensive. If Zelda uses her projectile, then he's toast. She has to retaliate. She can't wait for an approaching error.

Same thing goes for this matchup v Olimar- if Wolf continues to use his laser from anywhere closer than an Oli fsmash distance away, then he should get shieldgrabbed. Olimar easily outranges wolf, so wolf has to be the one to make the approach.

It's not just about each character's projectile game versus one another. It's more about how well each character fairs (not f-air) against each other at a mid-range. And quite frankly, Olimar excels here.
 

BlackWaltzX

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2007
Messages
1,013
Ishieymoro hit it right on the nose.
Also, Nair and Bair generally hit each other. Since ours is a multihit attack, we'll deal to you 2% or whatever, while you deal the full force of the attack.

We'll WAC through bairs while recovering and while on the stage, we'll stay on the ground unless approaching.
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
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Dan, Olimar has no SA frames on his grab correct? How can he grab Wolf through a blaster then?
 

asob4

Smash Champion
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Apr 14, 2007
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Palmdale, CA
i got a replay of me vs my friends wolf

VERY CLOSE and we were both a little off

hopefully i can find some way to get it online
 

asob4

Smash Champion
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Apr 14, 2007
Messages
2,968
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Palmdale, CA
i got a replay of me vs my friends wolf

VERY CLOSE and we were both a little off

hopefully i can find some way to get it online
 

Kikuichimonji

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
128
Location
St. Louis
I could have sworn you said you would.
What, instead would you do?
Wait, so Olimar is close enough to have to shield the blaster's bayonet?

  • fsmash
  • side dodge
  • run away, approach with bair

You can't shield grab a properly spaced blaster. That's the whole point.

How does outspamming a character NOT force them to approach? You can't just perfect shield EVERY time and sit in one spot. You can't retreat, because then you run out of stage if he moves forwards too. You do have to approach in some fashion - you have to change the game from a spamming game to a close-combat game. Getting close enough to grab Wolf IS approaching.

The Marth & Zelda analogy fails because Wolf's Blaster is not as easily punishable as Din's Fire because the blaster has a big moving hitbox. Din's Fire only explodes on impact. Marth cannot easily punish laser spam for the same reason Olimar can't.
 

colored blind

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 7, 2008
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398
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Purdue/West Lafayette
This has been mentioned, but everyone pretty much glanced over it.

The Reflector will likely be a key advantage at higher levels of play. It has invincibility frames, and when it hits, it usually puts the Olimar player in a worse position.
 

ScruffyBarker

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 20, 2008
Messages
2
*Is about to be called a newbie whether it's here or IRL*

This matchup is 60-40 to olimars favor.
You're kidding, right? Olimar really has three notable combat advantages in the form of DPS, easy camp damage, and multiple kill moves. Key points of interest from earlier in the discussion...

Blaster spam forces Oli onto the offensive for once. (I'm actually surprised you knew that wolf is the only one that outcamps oli) For this reason, pikmin throw and pivotgrabs (for the most part) won't be very effective versus a patient wolf. Olimar does have an underestimated approaching game, but it's not enough to outweigh wolf's defensive game.
Wolf has the advantage here, since his Blaster can limit Olimars options greatly, no matter how much he powershields or how much he uses his downB invincibility: Blaster stops Olimars most used moves - sideB, grab and fsmash...
Olimar dies at 75% upwards, Mario at 82% wolf at 88%
Olimar is indeed lighter, but it's not so simple, especially with Olimar's DPS.
As I said, the olimar can't rely on forward smash OR side b as much.
He has to rely on grabs or nairs more.
Nair outprioritizes most of your attacks besides (I think) upair, bair, nair and fair.
I remove dair because we'll upair you at that point which overides yours.
I apologize if the first two seem redundant, but the first refers to changing typical strategy (which in turn means that the match-up is inherently difficult for you if you can't play normally) while the second specifically mentions the moves which are being targeted by the blaster discussion. Now, the following contentions have been put up to mitigate the analysis presented in the first post.

Probably the most significant allegation is that the blaster doesn't matter. Several posts were written explicitly to say that a "good" Olimar player wouldn't allow that to matter that much. This argument is a little... well it's very pretentious and implies that a good Wolf player has few other tactics outside of this realm. As stated, this simply allows Wolf to out camp Olimar which decreases the ability to make grabs and forces the Olimar player into positions in which he is more vulnerable than against most match-ups. The reason this works so efficiently is because the moves stated for negation all rely on a pikman making the hit which the bayonet can skewer without altering the timing for the laser. Therefore by terms of a "good" player, there is literally no such thing as a grab, side-b, or side-smash against Wolf by Olimar on the same principles that Olimar can dodge the laser for an approach. I'm attaching this argument to the contention that the blaster can be disqualified as a significant advantage for the purpose that arguing on perfect players only if grabs can be disqualified in the same breath. Because the argument hinges on timing and good play tactics, any point made against one without regards to the component moves applies to the other.

The real point that's been made so far has been Olimar's CG of Wolf up to 45% damage. Provided the counterpoint above is resolved in a manner that doesn't result in the frame-by-frame capabilities of the perfect player making those moves completely moot, this really is a problem when added to Olimar's DPS. That said, Wolf is a heavier character with a less gimpable recovery (needing a purple pikman to prevent edgehogging is pretty serious once that launch is made). All this means is that Wolf is just as likely to need his recovery as Olimar making the gimp argument two-pronged. Both characters have gimpable recovery but Wolf is less susceptible to edgehogging at lower percentages due to semi-scarring and tele-stepping. The latter leaves him in a vulnerable range for the purple fair, but the former can be done with 21 frames between start and making it to the stage. Air attacks might take 8 frames which is why only semi-scarring would suffice (it would take approximately another 11 frames to get within range to make the fair on the farthest semi-scar). This means that there is around 4-5 frames of room for a hit to be made assuming the fair is well timed and hits when/where it is meant to. It should be noted that two of those frames are mutually exclusive to every other vulnerable frame meaning timing would have to be dead on. So what it really boils down to is the launch. One could argue that an attached pikman would slow recovery, but one could also argue that using the blaster knocks the pikmen off thus restoring recovery.

The launch is definitely Wolf's advantage not for versatility, but because Olimar is, as mentioned earlier, a lighter character. Frame for frame, Olimar and Wolf would go toe-to-toe until someone was launched beyond recovery or gimped in an ideal setting, but due to the fact that Olimar is launched a bit sooner and both characters can eek out the punishment (Wolf's being less combo based but he's able to camp) Wolf would get the advantage in kill rate when he already shuts down a larger number of moves from his opponent.


For the tl;dr oriented...

1. Wolf's blaster only doesn't count if Olimar's grab, side-B, and side-smash don't.
2. Olimar has better DPS, but gets launched sooner, further, and is more gimpable.
3. Wolf can ungimp himself from the pikmen.

Edit: I'm aware it's spelled pikmin, it's a running joke to do pikman kinda like pacman with an IRL friend of ours (got a message about that, suprisingly).
 
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