Match-Up Chart v3: Wolf Panel

[~ Gheb ~]

Idk, Bowser gets shut down by regular Wolf bair/laser camping pretty bad

I disagree. A huge part of why I used to think it's only slightly in our favor is because Bowser has rather good tools and mix-ups to deal with bair leaving us with little room for error. And his mobility is rather underrated too and makes laser often an unsafe option.

What I wasn't aware of back in the day though was how powerful ledge-traps are and that it's rather easy to get him trapped there. If the match-up really is +2 in our favor then I don't think it's because of the laser / bair / shine-stuff that makes us beat all the other low tier characters but the fact that Bowser is just generally rather easy to trap on the ledge or in a juggle. Like I said though, when I played the match-up in 2010 I wasn't good enough a player to actually make any use of these kind of traps making me thinks it's only a small advantage.

 

[Ishiey]

What are his mixups to deal with bair? But yeah, Bowser gets juggled for days. DAYS. Ledgetrapping is good too, even though his ledge jump is good that is not where he wants to be in this MU lol. Laser, while still annoying, takes a backseat to those two aspects of the game in this MU imo.

 

[_Kain_]

Bowser has no real moves to be fearful of or fast enough to compete with most of Wolf's options other than his Klaw move and maybe his fair? What can a grounded Bowser do other than Up B OoS? There's no need to really pressure his shield, cause his mobility is bad. I feel like this MU is bad not because of the ability to camp him with bair and laser but because of his lack of mobility it's very easy to pick and choose when to strike him, since he's very slow, and one strike against Bowser can lead to lots of dmg

I guess when I say bair laser camp I'm really vague. Forcing people to be defensive with these options is what I mostly mean, not throw them out against people who shield, which naturally is bad to do in this game. Of course everyone has answers to that. If Bowser jumps he's easy to stuff with bair, fair, or laser, if you have your back turned against him he's gonna be fearful of approaching on the ground because of his lack of options. That alone leads to easy mixups whicn in turn, put Bowser in the worst position he can be in once put into the air/ being juggled.

And yeah, I agree on the ledge he's also very very bad

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Claw, ftilt, fair and mix-ups with bair, fsmash and fire breath are all able to beat not optimally spaced bair and can trade if timed well too.

His mobility is not as bad as you think.

 

[M.C. Pee-Pants]

Zigista told me that bowser has a down throw to dtilt combo wolf at a low percent also when bowsers landing they like to use clawoos ftilt or claw, shield pressure wise bowser can mix it up after one jab like jab to claw jab to up b ect

 

[Cassius.]

bowser's air and ground speed really is not as bad as you think kain lol

i'm sure the mu is -2, i wouldn't argue against that, but it's for the wrong reasons.

bowser gets juggled, that's an obvious one, and just like against marth, bowser has a very very very very difficult time getting back onto the stage if he gets put on the ledge.
i will guarantee you that once bowser gets past 100% he suddenly becomes the easiest character to handle on the ledge, bar none...aside from gimmicky ledgehop klaws or other fancy stuff that your typical bowser wouldn't know ()

most of the time to escape a juggle or aerial pressure from wolf, that's really our only option (to go to the ledge). at low percents it's fine. bowser's ledge attack and ledge jump are a-ok at that point, but that doesn't, and shouldn't last long

i think bowser can deal with wolf's bair pretty well..it's not the be-all-end-all of this match up lol.

there are a million of things bowser can do besides up-b oos on the ground. in fact up-b'ing out of shield is usually never the first thing a bowser player should think of doing. it depends on the opponent's percent honestly. it's gotten to the point where sometimes doing the auto-pilot upb will actually be worse for you, because (as an example) if i were to up-b a wolf for a bair or whatever and it hits him, wolf can get his **** started on bowser while i'm still recovering off of fortress. i can only go so far, you know? i would rather hold that **** and just wait for a grab or a side-b or what have you, instead of trading a fresh 16 off of the up-b and taking a 12 from wolf and being pushed around for extra percent and pressure.

is this making sense? i don't want to confuse you guys because y'all are mostly right.

and mcpe bowser has weird **** on wolf, but who doesn't? his weight is weird.

 

[PMC66]

Bowser V wolf +2, I'd hate to have to admit that 2 years ago when i was getting served in the bowser/ wolf mu.

But then i had no idea how to play that matchup yonks ago, even knowing what to do it doesn't really feel like i have any real advantage as wolf other than forcing bowser to aproach.

Sonic is not +2 that's an overexagerated figure, especially when sonic can gimp wolf off stage pretty decently and his throws put wolf in bad positions.

Walking to wolf as sonic works because wolf won't be able to throw out laser's all day because sonic will eventually get too close. As sonic your not really meant to try and get inside wolf and do damage your more meant to just wait for him to throw out a move. Sonic can actually get in with pateince and Wolf's ground game actually looses to sonic's jab. (yeah hard to believe) but basically sonic can use his frame 3 jab to clash with Wolf's smashes yes Sonic's jab clashes with Jab, F-smash and D-smash. The timing for doing it isn't hard and because sonic's jab is faster he can use it to get in on wolf when he lands.

The trick that not alot of people have got down yet is the fact sonic can't aproach wolf for **** when wolf is in the air and at decent range but if you walk up to wolf and be patience and get in you will either find wolf will get pushed to one side of the stage or he'll attempt the crossover or mix up to try and repeat. But the fact of the matter is sonic can aproach and use his jab to actually beat Wolf's ground moves, (this takes a bit of practice to learn how to time the jab and stuff though but it's fairly practical). I see no sonic's taking advantage of using his Jab to get a favourable feasible trade, many of you have used your own experiences i have as well but. I have abused this to death as sonic vs tons of wolf players as a method of getting in on wolf. Once you get that first hit wolf will have difficulties, as Wolf vs this tactic reflector can beat the jab but seeing as how many frames reflector takes and the fact sonic could read the reflector and simply go for a quick Up throw U-air combo to rack up damage he can start chase teching wolf as he tries to land. When wolf lands it's basically this repeat process of wolf throwing out safe lasers sonic walking up and getting closer. And a ton of 50-50 situations, i assure you greatly B-air doesn't lock anyone out when your up close.

-2 vs sonic = bull **** i'd understand -1 I can see why people would think -1, -2 is plain silly. Especiall when sonic can walk up close for the 50-50 read situations and beat Wolf's entire ground game bar reflector with his ****ty jab lol.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Bowser V wolf +2, I'd hate to have to admit that 2 years ago when i was getting served in the bowser/ wolf mu.

But then i had no idea how to play that matchup yonks ago, even knowing what to do it doesn't really feel like i have any real advantage as wolf other than forcing bowser to aproach.

Sonic is not +2 that's an overexagerated figure, especially when sonic can gimp wolf off stage pretty decently and his throws put wolf in bad positions.

Walking to wolf as sonic works because wolf won't be able to throw out laser's all day because sonic will eventually get too close. As sonic your not really meant to try and get inside wolf and do damage your more meant to just wait for him to throw out a move. Sonic can actually get in with pateince and Wolf's ground game actually looses to sonic's jab. (yeah hard to believe) but basically sonic can use his frame 3 jab to clash with Wolf's smashes yes Sonic's jab clashes with Jab, F-smash and D-smash. The timing for doing it isn't hard and because sonic's jab is faster he can use it to get in on wolf when he lands.

The trick that not alot of people have got down yet is the fact sonic can't aproach wolf for **** when wolf is in the air and at decent range but if you walk up to wolf and be patience and get in you will either find wolf will get pushed to one side of the stage or he'll attempt the crossover or mix up to try and repeat. But the fact of the matter is sonic can aproach and use his jab to actually beat Wolf's ground moves, (this takes a bit of practice to learn how to time the jab and stuff though but it's fairly practical). I see no sonic's taking advantage of using his Jab to get a favourable feasible trade, many of you have used your own experiences i have as well but. I have abused this to death as sonic vs tons of wolf players as a method of getting in on wolf. Once you get that first hit wolf will have difficulties, as Wolf vs this tactic reflector can beat the jab but seeing as how many frames reflector takes and the fact sonic could read the reflector and simply go for a quick Up throw U-air combo to rack up damage he can start chase teching wolf as he tries to land. When wolf lands it's basically this repeat process of wolf throwing out safe lasers sonic walking up and getting closer. And a ton of 50-50 situations, i assure you greatly B-air doesn't lock anyone out when your up close.

-2 vs sonic = bull **** i'd understand -1 I can see why people would think -1, -2 is plain silly. Especiall when sonic can walk up close for the 50-50 read situations and beat Wolf's entire ground game bar reflector with his ****ty jab lol.

Why would ever be on the ground vs ? doesn't gimp . And 's walk is about as frightening as 's warlock punch.

Uthrow does not combo into Uair. You're considering DI's nothing.

Learn2MakeSense. This is why you aren't on the panel.

 

[Ishiey]

Yaaay Limit is on our side :D Bowser's jab is pretty good in this MU imo, allows for some solid damage-racking mixups and the attack itself has surprising range.

PMC, you basically said that Wolf loses to walk > PS/jab lol, I hope you're aware of how nonsensical that is. Next time I run into a good Sonic player I'll tell them to try out more jab stuff though, but tbh getting jabbed by Sonic is among the least of my concerns

 

[Cassius.]

I will always have a soft spot for Wolf. He was my first main character in Brawl haha waaay back in 08. He was the character I was most excited about. But yeah you guys had the information down, its not like y'all were spewing nonsense.

 

[M.C. Pee-Pants]

Bowser V wolf +2, I'd hate to have to admit that 2 years ago when i was getting served in the bowser/ wolf mu.

But then i had no idea how to play that matchup yonks ago, even knowing what to do it doesn't really feel like i have any real advantage as wolf other than forcing bowser to aproach.

Sonic is not +2 that's an overexagerated figure, especially when sonic can gimp wolf off stage pretty decently and his throws put wolf in bad positions.

Walking to wolf as sonic works because wolf won't be able to throw out laser's all day because sonic will eventually get too close. As sonic your not really meant to try and get inside wolf and do damage your more meant to just wait for him to throw out a move. Sonic can actually get in with pateince and Wolf's ground game actually looses to sonic's jab. (yeah hard to believe) but basically sonic can use his frame 3 jab to clash with Wolf's smashes yes Sonic's jab clashes with Jab, F-smash and D-smash. The timing for doing it isn't hard and because sonic's jab is faster he can use it to get in on wolf when he lands.

The trick that not alot of people have got down yet is the fact sonic can't aproach wolf for **** when wolf is in the air and at decent range but if you walk up to wolf and be patience and get in you will either find wolf will get pushed to one side of the stage or he'll attempt the crossover or mix up to try and repeat. But the fact of the matter is sonic can aproach and use his jab to actually beat Wolf's ground moves, (this takes a bit of practice to learn how to time the jab and stuff though but it's fairly practical). I see no sonic's taking advantage of using his Jab to get a favourable feasible trade, many of you have used your own experiences i have as well but. I have abused this to death as sonic vs tons of wolf players as a method of getting in on wolf. Once you get that first hit wolf will have difficulties, as Wolf vs this tactic reflector can beat the jab but seeing as how many frames reflector takes and the fact sonic could read the reflector and simply go for a quick Up throw U-air combo to rack up damage he can start chase teching wolf as he tries to land. When wolf lands it's basically this repeat process of wolf throwing out safe lasers sonic walking up and getting closer. And a ton of 50-50 situations, i assure you greatly B-air doesn't lock anyone out when your up close.

-2 vs sonic = bull **** i'd understand -1 I can see why people would think -1, -2 is plain silly. Especiall when sonic can walk up close for the 50-50 read situations and beat Wolf's entire ground game bar reflector with his ****ty jab lol.

Sonic is plus 2 cause I three stocked espy nuff said

 

[Seagull Joe]

I will be on both the and the panel and I believe it's -2 .

's jab is ****. If walking and holding A for /// is the new metagame to beat out then it's over for us.

-4 matchups for us vs everyone.

 

[Uncle]

I'll keep this brief, since Limit already covered things well here.

My Bowser/Wolf experience isn't massive, (One tourney set and a few friendlies against McPe over a year ago, a bunch of friendlies with Ishiey at WABA), but it (along with theorycraft) is enough to firmly convince me that the MU is a -2 for Bowser. Ishiey and I agreed that it was either a "harder" -1 or an "easier" -2, and I eventually settled on the latter in my head.

Bowser's biggest problems lie not with his movement speed and move startup (he's solid in both regards), but his lack of evasion, along with his weak ledge options past 100%. It's no secret that Bowser is a bad roller, spotdodger, lander, and a massive target. Fortress OOS is awesome, but like Limit said, it can't always protect you, and it will even screw you over if it's always your answer to shield pressure against a savvy opponent.

Also, I'm glad I got you to respect the Fair, Ishiey. I'm also glad that you figured out that being grounded is key in dealing with it.

Anyway, if you guys want to go for Wolf +2ing Bowser, we probably won't object. 3/5s of the Bowser panel is already cool with it, after all.

 

[PMC66]

Yaaay Limit is on our side :D Bowser's jab is pretty good in this MU imo, allows for some solid damage-racking mixups and the attack itself has surprising range.

PMC, you basically said that Wolf loses to walk > PS/jab lol, I hope you're aware of how nonsensical that is. Next time I run into a good Sonic player I'll tell them to try out more jab stuff though, but tbh getting jabbed by Sonic is among the least of my concerns

no the point is Sonic shouldn't be trying to rush in. and yes there are situations where your ariels won't work if sonic gets close enough.

It actually does make sense, the typical method of going in on wolf is to run up and shield, but this has more limiting options and wolf can try for grabs because he knows it's either that or dash a to get in.

I'm surprised not one of you knew that sonic's jab can clash with all of wolf's ground moves and put sonic in slightly favourable positions.

The point of that argument is you should go in slowly vs wolf because you have more options available on response. Also you don't have to be right next to wolf alot of sonic's make the mistake of trying to make themselves point blank with wolf when you could stand around the distance of half way in b-air, and F-tilt or jab.

Also spin dash cancel to U-air if you do it in advance can punish wolf when he's throwing out lasers.

yes U-throw U-air is not a true combo i mean as a tech chase, sonic can get solid rewards if wolf is above him. And throwing wolf off stage works because you can use your speed coupled with wolf's bad RCO lag to punish his landings. but as i said earlier your best bet is to get wolf throw off stage as much as possible and it is possible to gimp wolf on the odd occasion.

@ Gull I'm sorry i may not be a panelist but at least i knew ROB V ZSS is at least -2 without having an completely unknown player from an unestablished region having to correct you about it. (in my opinion -3). Also i said if you time jab right it wins it doesn't work if you hold A but you time jab to clash and get into better positions vs jab, F-tilt, D-smash and F-smash. Your overexagerations are cringe worthy at best.

Wolf has to land at some point and seeing as jumping adds extra start up frames to alot of ariels they're somewhat out of the list of options. and if Wolf's ground game is being out classed then the main option left is reflector, which is quite laggy and somewhat unsafe vs a character with a fast punish game like sonic if he see's it coming and shields.

Snake's jab is frame 3 which should theoretically beat wolf in ground trades but in practice it oddly doesn't F-tilt however whilst it's frame 4 has more of a knockback to it meaning wolf when he comes out of his jab animation is laggier.

And i am making perfect sense Sonic's jab beats wolf's entire ground game but it doesn't work if you hold A, it needs to be timed right well with F-smash and D-smash to cause a clash but it beats out wolf's jab which is the main thing, in that scenario sonic's jab will merely hit first out of F-smash and D-smash.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Me and Ish clearly are wrong. Can Pmc lead the panel with Viviff and Kalo? I think me, Gheb, Kain, Ish, and McPP are not worthy/not as experienced/need to theorycraft some more before we get on their level. How could we not realize 's jab was an almighty punisher/defender vs ? Jab merely needs to be thrown out because all 's will dash in (Because we're forced to approach . Slow projectile and all and his walk reaches us too fast...) and play incredibly grounded with spamming Utilt/Ftilt/Dtilt/Fsmash/Dsmash. The days of shine and bair/fair is over. We're doing it wrong.

 

[Ishiey]

Looks like we'll get to save a formal discussion on Wolf vs Bowser we should still get a write-up for the MU, but there's plenty of time before we need to worry about that.

PMC, I wasn't even continuing the discussion tbh :x You're neglecting a LOT of what Wolf can do and not accepting the feasibility of the situation, but regardless we'll be having this debate with more established mains of the character during the discussion cycles, and as I said, the next opportunity I get I'll suggest the whole walk and jab thing to a Sonic main to see how it works out / what they think.

 

[MegaRobMan]

Uh..................

Sonic is +2 on every stage but YI, which makes it +1. Sonic can reliably force wolf into 3 spots so he can beat sonics spin dash with blaster but sonic can anticipate this and do stupid stuff.

Thaaaaaaaaaattttttttt's about it for +1 on sonic vs wolf..

 

[PMC66]

wait. How the hell did none of you know about Sonic being able to limit wolf's counter attack options with jab? like most characters can, ness, Oli, Snake, Mario, e.t.c.

It is a little specific but quite feasible, tell them to practice trying to time it on D-smash and F-smash first, Jab is pretty straight forward. Sonic jab vs Wolf jab Sonic does have some form of frame advantage if they clash (not exactly sure by how much) i'd estimate by about 1 or 2 frames which would be enough for sonic to score a free jab unless wolf shields. the trades themselves and the frame advantage vary on what move is clashed with sonic's jab F-smash and D-smash are definetly laggier in comparison to jab.

BTW the tactic works with snake in a similair fasion, only difference is snake is safer to cross up in my opinion than Sonic is mainly because Snake's jump speed acceleration and punish methods if wolf trie to reset with long jump N-air or reflector, are kinda safer though i'm sure it's feasible for Snake to maybe score a free U-air is wolf tries to long jump in this fasion. Though vs a snake doing this tactic i find running through them and pivot grabbing is surprisingly effective.

I'm suggesting this because this is what i did as mario vs wolf a long time ago, i found i was able to walk up and PS wolf and use Jab to beat out his ground game and get semi favourable clashes.

i'd imagine if this tactic works with mario it'd work with Sonic too i've tried it out and had success but i main wolf so i had some idea of how to time the jab. But i emphasize that RAPID A does not work and it NEEDS TO BE TIMED.

i know Gull's comment was sarcasm but damn straight i agree with it, I should run the entire wolf panel though :D. jk. srsly though i feel i'm the only one qualified to say anything on Wolf vs Shiek though, -1 my *** lol. I argued it even quite well the other day so get@me

 

[Ishiey]

We know about jabs faster than frame 4 that don't suck being good against us at close range, just stop ranting already -_- nobody is even trying to have this conversation with you. Seriously, drop it.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Pmc is ahead of the metagame. Next he's gonna argue that since 's jab/nair are faster then ALL of 's moves that we just spam A/Nair to win (Which is true since has 0 moves quicker then frame 4).

Man is taking the next step in the metagame Ish. Don't tell him to stop! He's gonna do the impossible! vs Even!!!

 

[Ishiey]

You too though, Joe. Let's keep this thread productive, no need for extra mockery.

So for MUs we're going to bring up, looks like:
+2 (agreed on both sides)
+2
-2
maaaaaaybe

Anything else that a lot of people agree on, or that you feel other panels might bring up? I bet the Zeldas will put us into -3 for them, and if that's the case I don't see why Captain Falcon shouldn't have a -3'd as well :x

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I guess results really support a +2 MU for us against Sonic, don't they?

 

[Espy Rose]

It's only +1.
This gon' be fun.

 

[Ishiey]

I have no idea what results support lol. Looking forward to seeing you on the battlefield, Espy

 

[Espy Rose]

Results support a +2 to some extent, but it's probably not something that should be heavily considered as such.

Besides, if results really mattered that much, Sonic would be +1 vs Marth.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Besides, if results really mattered that much, Sonic would be +1 vs Marth.

Been supporting this for a while fyi

 

[Espy Rose]

I do it because it's funny to see the Marths deny it.
But seriously, it's probably even at best.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Anything else that a lot of people agree on, or that you feel other panels might bring up? I bet the Zeldas will put us into -3 for them, and if that's the case I don't see why Captain Falcon shouldn't have a -3'd as well :x

It's interesting that it seems we've all started matchup discussions in this thread.

Also the reason Zelda is -3 and Falcon is not is because Falcon can do stuff.

Zelda has running up smash, and that's about it. lawl

 

[Ishiey]

But Falcon *can't* do stuff

 

[KuroganeHammer]

idk, he at least has mobility and some form of aerial game.

I feel like, in comparison to Zelda; he can do stuff.

If that makes sense. >____>

 

[PMC66]

Pmc is ahead of the metagame. Next he's gonna argue that since 's jab/nair are faster then ALL of 's moves that we just spam A/Nair to win (Which is true since has 0 moves quicker then frame 4).

Man is taking the next step in the metagame Ish. Don't tell him to stop! He's gonna do the impossible! vs Even!!!

I actually think your kind to wolf over the D3 MU i think he's -4 :/ after playing the two top D3's in EU one of them being able to perform the infinite the room for error for spacing B-air is far too small, you die in a single grab, crossovers are unsafe, blaster is easily power shielded and D3 can punish with F-tilt pretty well. I don't think Wolf V D3 is winnable to any extent when played at a top level with both sides playing at the peak of the meta game. Wolf is just screwed no matter what he does, I just rush in with spaced B-air and go for grab mix ups because there is no optimum way of playing this, camping doesn't work, being aggro doesn't work so i just rush in and try to predict him because in all honesty wolf is screwed no matter what he does.

And argue pikachu not -3 because it isn't lol

Zelda is probably +4 she has 0 decent options other than taking trades that go in Wolf's favor. Wolf lives longer, locks most of her options down with B-air, she's just bad vs Wolf tbh.

Cap Falcon is +3 lol

 

[~ Gheb ~]

the two top D3's in EU

What

 

[Seagull Joe]

I thought the only in Europe was T. Confirm?

vs is definitely not -4. You just suck at the matchup. It's definitely winnable via timeout/camping/outsmarting. 's airspeed is balls and so is his recovery. If you lose the lead it is over, but the matchup is "winnable", just very unlikely. -4 would be if we had 0 options safe on shield like vs

You didn't mention at all the fact that 's quick roll can net you a free follow up if comitted himself to a move nor the fact that sh fair is safe. Don't spotdodge or challenge his spotdodge. Don't Fsmash unless it's a low percent Bair>Fsmash string. Don't Dsmash unless is recovering/jumping back to grab the ledge. Don't laser except at long range or when is airborne.

It just takes some common knowledge to fight . The only overall problem is killing because exhausts his kill moves on .

I don't advocate playing the matchup in tournament because a -3 is very hard to win. I +3 it with to continue onward in tournaments.

 

[Cheeri-Oats]

I can agree with -1 for / if everyone else thinks that.

however is EVEN. We just can't camp because he heals our lasers nor do we reliably gimp him. We can't shine his PKT2 like . We only get a GR>Fsmash, which PF has consistently SDI'd...And our OoS options when is bodying our shield is garbage. The problem is the fact that 's ground game is far better then 's even if our air game is better. This hurts if we attack him grounded because he can punish us OoS on block or Ps with Nair/Ftilt. And lets be honest, why would jump above outside fo Fh Dair as a punish? 's just retreat Sh Pk Fire's forever and that move is transcendent. Also, Fh Dair keeps us stuck in shield for the longest most ridiculous time and if we do get hit then it's tech or die (And if we tech we can still be followed up upon even if we tech roll).

Pink Fresh does NOT think vs is 's favor. He thinks it's even as does Mekos.

Seagull Joe is one smart puppy.

 

[PMC66]

I thought the only in Europe was T. Confirm?

vs is definitely not -4. You just suck at the matchup. It's definitely winnable via timeout/camping/outsmarting. 's airspeed is balls and so is his recovery. If you lose the lead it is over, but the matchup is "winnable", just very unlikely. -4 would be if we had 0 options safe on shield like vs

You didn't mention at all the fact that 's quick roll can net you a free follow up if comitted himself to a move nor the fact that sh fair is safe. Don't spotdodge or challenge his spotdodge. Don't Fsmash unless it's a low percent Bair>Fsmash string. Don't Dsmash unless is recovering/jumping back to grab the ledge. Don't laser except at long range or when is airborne.

It just takes some common knowledge to fight . The only overall problem is killing because exhausts his kill moves on .

I don't advocate playing the matchup in tournament because a -3 is very hard to win. I +3 it with to continue onward in tournaments.

theres Akuma and Phaussil they're Germany/ Austria. Gheb knows Phaussil he uses MK alot but he mains D3/Ness.

I haven't seen any recent videos of T the only D3's in EU i know of that do well are who i just stated.

I do know this mu i've actaully managed to win it, but it's utterly insane if your fighting a proper DDD main, that knows how to small step chain grab and infinite, with extreme consistancy, (Phaussil) the only advantage wolf realistically has is punish game, juggle ability and some of his moves being faster.

And i get your point about 0 safe options i do suppose your right about that Wolf can attack D3 safely there's just little room for error when doing so.

I meant to write two of the top D3's in EU. If there are others then fair enough, UK has no D3 players, and Austria/ Germany have 2 between them, i unno about places like france or netherlands i don't follow their smash scenes.

 

[MegaRobMan]

You too though, Joe. Let's keep this thread productive, no need for extra mockery.

So for MUs we're going to bring up, looks like:
+2 (agreed on both sides)
+2
-2
maaaaaaybe

Anything else that a lot of people agree on, or that you feel other panels might bring up? I bet the Zeldas will put us into -3 for them, and if that's the case I don't see why Captain Falcon shouldn't have a -3'd as well :x

Talk about useful matchups to know. @bowser/sonic.

The others though, Lucas especially, considering that apparently, lucas's tend to grow near wofls...are good to go over imo.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Talk about useful matchups to know. @bowser/sonic.

The others though, Lucas especially, considering that apparently, lucas's tend to grow near wofls...are good to go over imo.

They're like annoying hedges that can't be hedged.

And Akuma mains -____-

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Akuma's DDD is kinda good though. Beat quiksilver's ZSS, yo.

 

[Seagull Joe]

But that matchup is +2 .