Match-Up Chart v3: Wolf Panel

[Ishiey]

Hey everyone, Ish here. We just started the BBR Match-Up chart project, and I will once again be leading the Wolf panel. The thread detailing panel leaders, as well as other various information about the project, can be found here.

The current panelists for this panel are:
Ishieymoro
Kain
Seagull
Gheb
M.C. Peepants


If you have any questions or concerns regarding this panel or its activities, feel free to post them in this thread. You may also PM me if you would rather speak privately. Panelist selections will be finalized in a week or two, at which point we will begin discussing which match-ups to change in the panelist subforum.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'd definitely help you guys out again even though major changes aren't to be expected.

 

[Ishiey]

Whaaat. I thought you told me you had no interest in participating again xD

If you're really down though, sure thing Just out of curiosity, what major changes are you referring to?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't think any of our match-ups will change more than 1 point from where it is now. Stuff like Pikachu to -2 or Lucas to 0 are discussions I'm expecting but nothing like a previous disadvantage becoming an advantage or a match-up changing by 2 points.

 

[Ishiey]

Probably... is there anything you think needs to change by more than one point? @_@

 

[~ Gheb ~]

...no

 

[Ishiey]

Then all is well here

I'll add you in the OP. We still have room for one more!

 

[PMC66]

may i please join this time? lol (inb4Gull)

 

[Seagull Joe]

may i please join this time? lol (inb4Gull)

No.

I don't think any of our match-ups will change more than 1 point from where it is now. Stuff like Pikachu to -2 or Lucas to 0 are discussions I'm expecting but nothing like a previous disadvantage becoming an advantage or a match-up changing by 2 points.

Pretty much those are the only significant changes necessary ( -2 and 0).

/ can be argued as a 0 matchup. can be argued +2.

Opinions?

Version 2.0:

-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:

Version 3.0 (My opinion):

-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:

Changes: +2, 0, 0, 0, -2

 

[Delta-cod]

You forgot the Yoshi MU.

 

[Ishiey]

No.

Who died and made you panel leader?

Spoiler

jk<3

may i please join this time? lol (inb4Gull)

To be honest, I feel like your opinions are a bit too radical. Which would be fine if you could back them up well, but that isn't the case from what I've seen. Sorry :/


@ MUs: LUCAS IS NOT EVEN. Come on now.

If I had to make five changes...
-2
0
+2
+3
+3

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Isn't Zelda already +3?

It should be anyway.

Oh wait...

 

[Ishiey]

Exactly it's not even that I have the experience to say so, but the Zelda players have convinced me.

EDIT: MCPe is in for the panel, so we're all set!

 

[M.C. Pee-Pants]

No.


Pretty much those are the only significant changes necessary ( -2 and 0).

/ can be argued as a 0 matchup. can be argued +2.

Opinions?

Version 2.0:

-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:

Version 3.0 (My opinion):

-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:

Changes: +2, 0, 0, 0, -2

I agree with this list

 

[tekkie]

sonic as easy as ganondorf? :O

 

[_Kain_]

Yeah I still think Sonic is +1, Falco -1, and Diddy -1

Falco's close range just ****s up Wolf too much, and I'm still going off the things DEHF has shown me things Falco can do to mess with our recovery as well. Like, what can Wolf do about jab up close? Not really much answers to it, and I think thats what mostly sways the MU in his favor

Diddy is....diddy, he has bananas, he's very good at trapping our landings, he's way better with bananas then Wolf. I think this one is apparent why he +1's us

And then Sonic we just wall him out and make him getting in hard, but nothing he can't work around. I think -1 is perfect. We don't do anything ridiculous gay to him that makes it +2

I'll go with Lucas being even even though I still think we +1 him. Sparkles are too strong and I hate that *****

 

[Ishiey]

I actually think Sonic is +2 as well now :x It's really lame for him, like... really really lame.

Lucas isn't even

EDIT: Ninja'd lol. Agreed with Kain on DEHF, but vs any other Falco it's even and since we have no Wolves on DEHF's level, idk. Jab is still a ***** though. How does Falco mess with our recovery?

On Diddy, I think it's that he's just so much faster/more mobile than us with bananas that gives him a +1.

Sonic can't do much about laser/shine/bair. I promise, once you figure it out it's a reeeeeeeeeally irritating MU for Sonic. He can't kill until like 200% without a pretty solid read, no lie.

Lucas is not even. Sparkles are annoying but we edgeguard him well (dsmash the tether), bair outspaces him, and he has a hard time killing us without going for one of his DIable setups like dair > dtilt lock (not that we have an easier time killing him, but we have safer options). The main thing keeping him from doing worse is his crazy mobility and fast jab imo. Oats, PF, and Ravenlord all agree with me on the +1/-1 ratio :x

 

[_Kain_]

Yeah I know I'm sticking with Lucas being +1 for us I was kidding lol.

And well all you have to do is put a hitbox between our Side B and we get hit out of it. Even though it was wifi he made it a bit troublesome to recover, he even spiked me out of it sometimes. Also, jab

And Sonic...man +2 though? Idk I just feel like it's too much compared to other +2 MU's

 

[Ishiey]

Yeah lol, most people are pretty booty at interrupting sideB but after I play with people enough they start to do some nasty things ._. jab is dumb as **** though.

I used to feel the same about Sonic, but every number is still a spectrum of MUs. All the Sonics I've met and actually chatted with think it's right up there among his hardest MUs. At higher levels of play where Wolf starts to set up walls and avoid unnecessarily committing to things, it gets so much harder for Sonic to get in. It's crazy how much of this game depends on one's ability to approach ._.

Also, I was going to say Bowser is +2 but Uncle didn't let me convince myself on that during WABA it's still borderline though, either category works imo.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

When are the discussions starting?

 

[Ishiey]

Actual discussions with other panels? After APEX, so everyone that's going (which includes the majority of panel members I'm sure) can get some experience in the MUs their panel will be debating if they so desire.

The part where we decide which MUs to change, idk, two weeks earliest. We have to set up the subforum and usergroup permissions first.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I can agree with -1 for / if everyone else thinks that.

however is EVEN. We just can't camp because he heals our lasers nor do we reliably gimp him. We can't shine his PKT2 like . We only get a GR>Fsmash, which PF has consistently SDI'd...And our OoS options when is bodying our shield is garbage. The problem is the fact that 's ground game is far better then 's even if our air game is better. This hurts if we attack him grounded because he can punish us OoS on block or Ps with Nair/Ftilt. And lets be honest, why would jump above outside fo Fh Dair as a punish? 's just retreat Sh Pk Fire's forever and that move is transcendent. Also, Fh Dair keeps us stuck in shield for the longest most ridiculous time and if we do get hit then it's tech or die (And if we tech we can still be followed up upon even if we tech roll).

Pink Fresh does NOT think vs is 's favor. He thinks it's even as does Mekos.

 

[PMC66]

I actually think Sonic is +2 as well now :x It's really lame for him, like... really really lame.

Lucas isn't even

EDIT: Ninja'd lol. Agreed with Kain on DEHF, but vs any other Falco it's even and since we have no Wolves on DEHF's level, idk. Jab is still a ***** though. How does Falco mess with our recovery?

On Diddy, I think it's that he's just so much faster/more mobile than us with bananas that gives him a +1.

Sonic can't do much about laser/shine/bair. I promise, once you figure it out it's a reeeeeeeeeally irritating MU for Sonic. He can't kill until like 200% without a pretty solid read, no lie.

actually i've played it tons as sonic and done well unless i was on battlefield, then it got really hard. Honestly Wolf's blaster shouldn't be locking a character like sonic out it's 49 frames long and Sonic should just walk power shield the shots and simply use his punish game to get in when wolf throws out a move. B-air isn't that much of a problem either roll behind wolf as he lands or run in power shield when you see it coming. As sonic if you get in on wolf throw him off stage and just keep throwing him off and hope you score a lucky gimp. Depends on the stage, really, it feels fine everywhere except battlefield, then wolf really destroys because you have pretty much no room to fight him and aproaching gets difficult. In my view it's an endurance match for Both sides unless Wolf gets lucky with a down smash or N-air to down smash read or sonic gimps wolf off stage. Gull makes it sound like Blaster is all that's needed to wreck sonic but think about this logically how can a frame 49 move, beat the fastest running character in the game? it's not feasible. Oh and sonic can d-tilt lock wolf to 30-40% and get a free up tilt, just figured i'd mention it.

I wouldn't classify killing with Up throw to really be a solid read. Solid read would be killing with F-smash or B-air though B-air will only kill wolf at the 180s if it's fresh.



Falco can shoot lasers off stage and edgeguard sounds basic but it can work, also i've managed to gimp Wolf using Falco's own reflector lol wouldn't recommend it though.

N-air is too good vs Diddy for it to be -1 for wolf. You can break a ton of Diddy's aproaches with it as well as use it to grab a banana N-air bana throw> single nana lock is pretty accessible as far as nana locks go. to be honest neither side can safely aproach unless Diddy has 1 or none bananas. If he has two stay away at all times. If you get a nana grab it and throw it upwards or away from Diddy and use your ariels they're a better option. Also N-air's duration can be canceled when landing so lond jump N-air on places like BF and Lylat is a solid tactic vs Diddy especially if you catch a banana with it.

Wolf V Diddy no nana +2
Wolf V Diddy one nana +1
Wolf V Diddy 2 nanas -3

my opinions only get 'radical' when the tier list is discussed and it's only because i'm right about pretty much everything i say on that topic especially ROB.

Not that my opinion ever mattered but i have never felt Falco to be a bad matchup for wolf.

BTW Gull your opinions on Lucas are ridiculous. 'you won't DI it everytime' well point is you CAN DI it Lucas is not mid tier, if he gets mid tier next list i'll just laugh at people like you who jump on bandwagons because they meat ride the next low tier mainer they see do well.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I don't bandwagon characters. I base them from my own experience/results. cannot Dtilt lock for that long nor can it combo into Utilt (And I don't see how using Dtilt is very applicable since it isn't a move can just randomly throw out at low percents). can't hit because just moves away, jumpshine camps, or wrecks spindash. You say should be walking, but doesn't even have an amazing walk and his start up speed to dash is really slow (Ironically). There is nothing threatening about grounded .

is broken on Wi-Fi because spindash can't be punished as reliably.

 

[PMC66]

I don't bandwagon characters. I base them from my own experience/results. cannot Dtilt lock for that long nor can it combo into Utilt (And I don't see how using Dtilt is very applicable since it isn't a move can just randomly throw out at low percents). can't hit because just moves away, jumpshine camps, or wrecks spindash. You say should be walking, but doesn't even have an amazing walk and his start up speed to dash is really slow (Ironically). There is nothing threatening about grounded .

is broken on Wi-Fi because spindash can't be punished as reliably.

some mus sonic is broken on wifi not all vs Snake he's complete garbage.

I do play offline as well y'knowi i'm not a pure wifi brawler it irritates me when people think that.

and actually you can D-tilt juggle wolf for that long it's quite irritating, you are right though it's not easily landed it was just a bit of trivia i threw in

Look just because your region actually has good players and you don't have to wifi in order to practice. Doesn't really mean you should imply i'm a sole 'wifi brawler' if i was i wouldn't say anything but once upon a time i used to play 20-30 people locally at this game and all that's really left is the London smash scene which i'd decimate with pocket secondaries (apologies to UK offline smashers everywhere), wifi is far too unreliable to measure true skill levels and the meta game itself is far too different from offline

 

[Ishiey]

however is EVEN. We just can't camp because he heals our lasers nor do we reliably gimp him. We can't shine his PKT2 like . We only get a GR>Fsmash, which PF has consistently SDI'd...And our OoS options when is bodying our shield is garbage. The problem is the fact that 's ground game is far better then 's even if our air game is better. This hurts if we attack him grounded because he can punish us OoS on block or Ps with Nair/Ftilt. And lets be honest, why would jump above outside fo Fh Dair as a punish? 's just retreat Sh Pk Fire's forever and that move is transcendent. Also, Fh Dair keeps us stuck in shield for the longest most ridiculous time and if we do get hit then it's tech or die (And if we tech we can still be followed up upon even if we tech roll).

Pink Fresh does NOT think vs is 's favor. He thinks it's even as does Mekos.

We don't need to camp Lucas, and we can still gimp him with shine jank even if it's harder than it is vs Ness. GR > fsmash is not even necessary imo, I just go for dthrows because people know how to SDI :x our OoS options are somewhat limited in comparison to vs other characters (usmash ), but we can make do with jab and just avoiding shielding in general. SDI nair up and shine if that's an issue. His ground game is better, but we can somewhat reliably keep him out of the range where he excels (jab/ftilt range) with bair. PKF is irritating but dealable. FH dair loses to jumpshine outside of punishes, and you can DI the hits up so that you don't go down. Idk man, don't shield much against Lucas :x

PF told me that he thought it was slightly Wolf's advantage iirc, this was when we played at Collision 5. It's not by much though.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I can ask Ravenlord what he thinks of Lucas vs Wolf. He has experience vs Semifer and had the same placing as Mekos did at Apex afaik.

 

[Ishiey]

That would be appreciated if possible, thanks hopefully he can still make it to APEX, but chances are tickets cost too much now.

 

[tekkie]

I can ask Ravenlord what he thinks of Lucas vs Wolf. He has experience vs Semifer and had the same placing as Mekos did at Apex afaik.

that *****'s lucas is off the chain

 

[M.C. Pee-Pants]

Yeah lol, most people are pretty booty at interrupting sideB but after I play with people enough they start to do some nasty things ._. jab is dumb as **** though.

I used to feel the same about Sonic, but every number is still a spectrum of MUs. All the Sonics I've met and actually chatted with think it's right up there among his hardest MUs. At higher levels of play where Wolf starts to set up walls and avoid unnecessarily committing to things, it gets so much harder for Sonic to get in. It's crazy how much of this game depends on one's ability to approach ._.

Also, I was going to say Bowser is +2 but Uncle didn't let me convince myself on that during WABA it's still borderline though, either category works imo.

I think bowser is +2 after playing zigista at whobo

 

[Ishiey]

I played him at E4U and was starting to think the same, but Uncle plays differently so I'm thinking that maybe Zigsta's style is just less effective? Either way it's definitely borderline.

 

[M.C. Pee-Pants]

I played both before, the mu didnt seem that much different to me

 

[Ishiey]

I just haven't learned the best way around fair yet although there's like no hitbox low to the ground so AC fair fails on Wolf when he stays grounded. We could probably make a case for Bowser, how do the rest of the Wolves feel? Kain/Gull/Gheb?

 

[MegaRobMan]

-+1
+1
+1/even
+2 but I haven't played enough quality bowsers
+1 but I haven't played enough quality DK's
-1
+1/2
-2
-+2
-+2
-2/1
-1/even, I mean, why would they switch to Zelda, and when would they be safe to change?
+2
+1/even
+3
I don't know.
+1
-1/even
Even/+1
+1/Even
-1
-3
-1/even
+1/even
-1/even
+2
-2
+1
+1
+2
Even/+1
Even/+1
+1
+1/Even
I don't know
-1
+2

imo

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I haven't played against Bowser since like early 2010. My knowledge on the match-up is probably outdated.

 

[tekkie]

- free

 

[_Kain_]

Idk, Bowser gets shut down by regular Wolf bair/laser camping pretty bad,, and all his **** is easy to punish. Once you put him in the air it's even more free.

I agree with MCPE seems like -2

 

[Ishiey]

In contrast to the rest of our -2s, I think he fits in better there. It's just that all the Bowser mains are awesome and I don't want to do that to them

Mildly related, but I'm probably going to drop my "Luigi for +2" campaign.

 

[Seagull Joe]

is only +1 Arda. I don't know when you're gonna finally accept it's +1 or even. is definitely +2. I agree with McPP/Kain.

 

[Ishiey]

But Luigi is terrible dw though, I said I won't be going for that lol