Match-Up #5 Donkey Kong

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Donkey Kong

Bio:

Donkey Kong (ドンキーコング, Donkī Kongu?) is a fictional gorilla in the Nintendo and Mario Universe. He is roughly twice the size of a normal gorilla, weighing approximately 800 pounds. Donkey Kong first appeared in Nintendo's popular 1981 video game of the same name. Since then he has appeared in over 20 games in his own series, as well as in some games in the Mario series. Kong debuted at the same time as Mario, and he still spars with Mario on occasion, appearing as playable characters in Mario Kart and Super Smash Bros., and is the primary antagonist in the Mario vs. Donkey Kong games.[2]

Summary:
*coming soon*

 

[Beat11]

One thing to keep in mind in this matchup, SPACE!!!! Throw crap the whole match and play keep away with him. He has as much range as our sword with his arms but with much more power. We have good set ups on DK with projectiles and he has to approach to do anything while we don't, so take advantage of it.

More details later. Zair is **** in this matchup. too good.

 

[Huggles828]

DK is nasty because of his range and his ability to kill us so quickly. Jab locks are extremely dangerous because if you try to jab lock with boomerang, if it doesn't work, he's going to crush you during the lag (plus he has long enough gorilla arms that you're kinda inside his murder zone already if you try it). We can pressure him with zair and projectiles, but DK is pretty quick and can get around them better than you'd expect (plus he's got lots of super armor) so your projectile game needs to be spot on, and don't let up. His f and dtilt are long range and quick, which makes spacing very difficult. You need to just be patient; Link shouldn't be fishing for kills anyway, but you need to just kinda keep piling on damage until he's up there since DK is so heavy and hard to kill. He might be making it close to 200% pretty consistently if he has good DI. He doesn't need to spike you into the stage to kill you early with his cargo hold throw; after about 100% he can auto-kill you just like Ike by dthrowing you out of cargo hold offstage and floating with his UpB to intercept your jump, which you HAVE to use to get enough height to make it back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKchYwshwbk&t=1m7s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-k5HaGrWv8&t=2m57s
^Cargo hold vids.

It's not an auto-lose by any means, but it's tough. You have to be very precise and have little margin for error since a small mistake gets you punished really hard. I'd say 35-65, although I can see an argument for 40-60. I'd call it -2 on the new scale they're using. It's not much better than that though, in my opinion.

_________________________________

Haha, maybe I just suck at the DK matchup. I've played it a decent bit but not a ton. I think I get sloppy and leave openings since spacing is pickier and DK can punish it well.

I do agree with much of what ALSM's saying. Camp hard. Don't get in close because he'll murder you. Don't get grabbed. Be careful with your offstage game in general (both when you and when he are offstage).

Quote from the other thread about my opinion on DK. Have we asked them if they want to help out the discussion yet?

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ffma2N6QrSk

I want to be honest, I don't think DK beats Link that bad with 60-40, it's more even imo. Let me explain.

First off I want to say is that you need to camp hard against DK; I mean camp HARD; this is going to cause lots of trouble for DK. This is when you need to utilize your projectiles to the fullest; I'm talking about using lots of bombs and abusing zair as a spacing tool. Mix in projectile switching (chaining one projectile after another), for example, by zairing with a bomb in hand, and then you can choose to throw the bomb afterwards or using another projectile. Try to stay grounded for the most part, and spot dodge is so good, because you want to avoid getting grabbed. If you can avoid getting grabbed, you're already putting up a good fight against him. You do not want to be upclose with DK at all, and if you happen to get in that situation, retreating nair/fair/zair are good moves to choose. If you catch DK in mid %'s with your jabs, you can jab cancel jab, and follow up with a grab.

Yes, DK can gimp and kill Link early, but how is he going to do that when you don't give him the opportunity to do so? Link has the tools to avoid these situations. Another thing, if you are on the ledge, be super patient. If you have to stay and plank the ledge, by all means do so, until he makes an attempt to intercept your planking or until you can safely get back on the stage. I remember playing Bigfoot in tourney, I was at the ledge on Lylat and he was charging fsmashes, trying to bait me to get back. I just pulled bombs as I let go of the edge, and threw them at him. One ledge trick I do that's pretty safe, is zair regrab the ledge (once if I tether the ledge, at least twice if I'm already on the ledge) for invincibility frames when I ledge-hop air-dodge -> buffer to whatever move (spot dodge, roll, uptilt, jab, ftilt, grab, nair, etc.) is appropriate to the situation.

Moves you need to watch out for the most: Bair, his super armor punch, his upb, and his grab attempts. Keep these moves in your head and visualize when the DK player would choose to do these moves as you are camping, running, and spacing.

As for choosing stages, I say it's all on your preference; which stages you are most comfortable with and which stages you can run/camp better. I personally like flat stages like Final Destination, so I usually strike Battlefield and Pokemon Stadium 1 for starter stages. Ban Frigate Orpheon (gimp city), and counterpick with a neutral you're comfortable with; don't go for a counter stage. Also beware of pocket characters that can destroy Link if you think about counterpicking to Final Destination.

Do not ever try to chase DK offstage, the most you can do edgeguard-wise is add damage with projectiles, or edge/zedge him.

Another thing, you want to keep the lead on DK the whole game, so that he will have to keep approaching you.

In my experience, I've beaten DK players in tourney; the most notable I've played and beaten so far is Bigfoot. I know Kirinblaze has beaten Will before as well. Legan vs. Ripple (friendlies) is an example of not camping (using projectiles) enough.

Overall, this matchup is a -1 for Link, or 55:45 DK's favor imo.

 

[Legan]

I wouldnt use that vid as an example of your argument, Will is sandbagging hard from what I see. Thats not the dk i played last year.

 

[Ripple]

this is at least a -2 for link.

cargo d-throw off stage> up-b guaranteed gimp. I've done this to legan way too many times

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

I still stand by what I've said; Link can make it hard for DK to get in. Ripple, next time we meet, we gotta play. =)

I wouldnt use that vid as an example of your argument, Will is sandbagging hard from what I see. Thats not the dk i played last year.

That vid is just an example of some things (esp. the way projectiles and zair is used) to do against DK. I understand that this is a friendly, but who's not to say Kirinblaze was sandbagging too? It would be great to have both of these players' inputs on this MU.

 

[Huggles828]

I wouldnt use that vid as an example of your argument, Will is sandbagging hard from what I see. Thats not the dk i played last year.

If I were a DK main, I'd sandbag every match, even in tourney; DK is awesome and freaking hilarious, and I laugh every time I play as him

Also, I like the list of people we've got in here, haha; Legan, Ripple, ALSM...

I'm still thinking a -2/ 35-65 or 40-60 matchup.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Link is gonna play keep away and abuse the fact DK's shield to his body ratio is kinda bad. Keep in mind he has good range even if it you can hit his limbs. He ha kill power very similar to Snake.

UpB has super armor on start up, his Donkey Punch has super armor as well.

The biggest issue is gimping, surprise. The other is is Link makes a mistake, DK can capitalize on it with his kill power and knock back hard. Dk works on using bair to space in the air, tilts on the ground.

Getting into Link can be hard, but when he does Link is in big trouble.

Stage choice confuses me in this MU, I'm not sure what is good outside of striking/banning YI.

I wanna play Ripple, I play Ook a lot and want to see how other DK's play.

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

Red Ryu, I'm curious as to why you think of banning Yoshi's against DK; I would think to ban Frigate Orpheon. Please explain.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I find the stage to give him the reach from the stage he needs with how the platforms tilts to give him and edge over most stages.

I don't mind Frigate, that is personal taste of mine as Link.

 

[Ryos4]

Frigate isnt that bad. If DK wants to gimp you, he will on any stage. Regardless if their are ledges or not. Plus i think the lack of ledge on the right side would own DK just as much as Link if DK falls a bit too far down. The worst thing DK can do is to Dtilt lock you against the wall when the platform is lowered.

 

[DKwill]

If you guys want to learn this matchup, just play me or Ripple. Pretty sure we have more experience with DK vs Link than any other DKs in the world =)

My more recent matches vs Sasook adequately represent me in a non sandbagging manner. Kirinblaze and I know each other so well that we either go even bc we both know each other's habits, or I play the matchup correctly and its just gimp after gimp D= He tends to go Mario on me more often than not nowadays. Although I will say that Halberd is a ridiculously good stage for Link due to that middle platform serving as a base from which to space z-airs to keep out opponents and negate aerial approaches.

 

[Huggles828]

Oh look, speaking of which, new videos of Sasook and Will!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAE2qMgIVd8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4qw8Jd0m_M

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

Sasook be improving. I liked how he avoided that cargo-throw gimp offstage at 0:42 (second game).

 

[Beat11]

I would emphasize a "bomb in hand" type strategy against DK. I've heard that DKs hate bomb spammy Links and they have trouble grabbing them. It is a must for anyone to keep DK from grabbing them and the bomb strategy seems to be the only effective way for Link to do that. I find that Bombs can keep DK out of CQC well when Z dropped, U thrown and D thrown from a SH. Keeping him from getting close is a key component to winning this matchup so do what you can, even if it means to spam bombs or whatever.

 

[IYM!]

this is true, Zair with bomb is the best tactic, DK gonna fell insegurity if he go to attack us.


this combo work for me Zair>throw bomb> dash attack>Utilt jump>Nair

this is kinda a safe combo, at leas the Zair bomb and dash and utilt part

 

[Scabe]

For some reason Link players get to play DK's a lot.

I wrote a pretty nooby match up thing last year I think.

Sorry that I took a while to post. I play the Link vs DK matchup all the time with my good friend. I think it's 60/40 in DK's favour.

What DK can do to us and how we can deal with him
​

​

At really low percents expect to see DK going for these true combos:
• Dtilt > Link Trips > Down B
• Dthrow > Ftilt.

​

Link should space well in the beginning of the match to avoid these. If he does his down B instantly try and hit him with Zair, the cool down for Down B takes a while and hitting him with Zair when you get hit into the air usually works.

​

Expect lots of Bairs. It’s such a good move. It comes out fast, it ends fast, has heaps of range and quite a bit of knockback. There’ll be lots of mixups with Bair, sometimes he’ll do an empty short hop and won’t use it, and sometimes he will.

Sometimes he will Back air into Side B while still in the air. Watch out for that, I fall for this everytime!

He also has a somewhat wall of pain with his Back air and can constantly hit you offstage until you can’t make it back. He can fit two Back airs into a short hop.

​

We can shield grab DK if he does a landing back air.

Watch out for the rising ones. According to frame data we only have 15 frames to punish this. Which isn’t a whole lot. Upsmash or maybe even Up B OOS could work but it’s very risky if their not in range. We should be able to jump OOS and Nair/Bair him. Zair could work, and if it did it would be the safest option. Test these things out and see what works.

Bair is probably his best move so do your best to keep DK looking forward at you.

​

His Side B is troublesome when it hits you. It puts you in a pitfall if you get hit. And it deals massive shield damage.

You won’t get put in the pitfall if your jumping, so try Nair. Rolling may help with avoiding this hit, it’s got some ending lag that you may be able to punish if you roll behind.

​

You’ll probably get grabbed a lot. DK has a pretty big grab range. **** those massive arms of his.

​

Don’t land in front of DK. Space your aerials such as Fair and Zair so you land as far as possible but still getting that last hit in. Nair is too weak and easily shield grabbed. A theory I have with Back air is to use it once then use it again on your double jump. Double jump away so that you don’t land in shield grab range. You don’t want to land behind DK with lag.

​

His Cargo is what you should fear. He can take you offstage and either stage spike you or throw just throw you out and make it almost impossible to recover.

​

There’s this dumb glitch where if you hold up during DK’s Cargo throw and he takes you offstage it pretty much makes you break out of it instantly. But at higher percents he’ll still be able to pull off his Cargo shenanigans. You can tech the cargo throw stage spike.

As for the ‘Ike Killer’ where he just throws you offstage, I’m not sure what to do against that yet. But yes this is why you should try and not get grabbed by especially at the sides. So stay in the center and it should be easier to break out of his Cargo if he decides to do it. I'll get you video evidence of this 'Ike Killer' soon.

​

On Yoshi Island and Pictochat DK has this AT where he uses his Up B and he's completely invincible. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-FXO43sUAc

​

What you can do is jab at the beginning of this move and it will cancel it out.

​

Watch out for his fully charged Neutral B, the range of that move is nuts. It also has deceptive ending lag where it ends really quick, so you’ll usually see it in conjuction with Dtilt or even Fsmash if the move misses and you try to go in and punish his Giant Punch.

​

Basically don’t approach him. Don’t have a forward momentum to go and attack him. Keep it cool and keep retreating.

​

His Fsmash is brutal. You can't sheild grab his Fsmash. And his Dsmash is really fast and strong.

A common thing you’ll see is DK living forever. He’s one of the heaviest characters the game and his Up B is like a bucket brake where it stops all momentum.

What we can do to DK and how he can deal with us

​

Zair wrecks DK. Space it so that you end up getting the furthest hit. It stops his short hop approaches and his ground approaches. It probably will shield poke too considering how bad DK’s shield is.

​

DK can do a running Shield and get inside your range to counter Zair. He can also approach you using full hops to avoid your Zair.

​

When DK is off stage hassle him with Arrows, Boomerangs and maybe but probably not bombs?. When he’s far away and recovering with Up B, Dair is disjointed and will hit him out of his Up B.

​

If you miss with Dair you probably won’t make it back with DK’s Up B stalling.

​

Keep mixing up your projectiles and find a way to make a wall to prevent from DK getting in.

​

Sadly our projectile wall can be pretty easy to go through.

​

We can Bomb footstool jab lock DK. For a good early 40 percent or so. It's hard to set up though.

Jab Jab cancel into jab cancel and so on works really well. If done right, DK will be stuck inside and will be forced to take the hits.

​

It probably could be SDI’d of. Link’s Jabs can be shield grabbed between each hit, which is dumb. It usually happens. If done at early percents he probably falls fast enough to grab us.

​

Keeping DK high above you is good. Our Up air beats his Dair.

Stages
​

Starter
Battlefield – Matchup get’s better
Final Destination - Counterpick worthy
Smashville - Matchup gets worse
Yoshi's Island – Matchup Gets Worse/Ban Worthy

Starter/Counter
Castle Siege - Neutral
Halberd – Matchup gets worse
Lylat Cruise - Neutral
Pokémon Stadium 1 – Neutral/Matchup Gets Worse

Counter
Brinstar – Matchup gets worse
Delfino – Matchup Gets worse
Frigate Orpheon - Matchup gets worse
Jungle Japes – Ban Worthy
Pictochat – Neutral/Matchup Gets worse
Pirate Ship – Matchup Gets worse
Pokémon Stadium 2 - Neutral
Rainbow Cruise – Matchup gets better

Counter/Banned
Distant Planet - ?
Green Greens - ?
Luigi's Mansion – Ban Worthy
Port Town Aero Dive ?
Yoshi's Island (Pipes) ?
Norfair - ?

Strengths and Weaknesses
​

Mostly stolen from Smash Wiki

DK's Pros:
Well rounded attacks, good mobility, good range and incredible finishers

Donkey Kong is a very heavy character with very powerful attacks, great attack range, and high knockback capabilities. He is one of the fastest heavyweight characters; his movement speed is above average: fast running, fast walking, fast air speed, and very high initial jump.

DK's Cons:
Donkey Kong lacks projectiles and a reliable way to deal with them, which makes his moveset and style of approach unvaried.

He's got a very small shield in proportion to his body size.

Link's Pros:
3 Projectiles
Good DI
Lot's of AT's

Link's Cons:
Gimpable
Slow moves, slow air movement, slow etc

Videos of this matchup

KirinBlaze
​

(5/09) KirinBlaze (Link) vs. Will (DK)
1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IILWJw5IQ0
2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ffma2N6QrSk

The Tenth of York vs The Sixth of York. (Meanlies. 2/26/10)
1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bNVQt4ye60
2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q1K3REk7pY
3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUj4m0C1Ylw
4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Di0a_ObNIyE
5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUawExASt_o

Legan

​

(5/24) Legan (Link) vs. Ripple (DK)
1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eF63T80Igk
2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-hCpi9PpFg

Aerial rave November 11, 2009. Legan (Link) vs. Ripple (DK)
1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_S-2khlMm4
2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMsc_oOB8NY&feature=related

May 04, 2009 —
1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAzH5jwlpL4&feature=related
2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xYJKVvXI0U&feature=related
3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgAIQiJ6UD4&feature=related
4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDamHqLl5Kc&feature=related
5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abdPZInCBkI&feature=related
6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69ehLRtaBBY&feature=related
7: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFiZM2i-dbs&feature=related
​

​

Scabe

​

Scabe (Link) vs Silfa (DK) Offline loser's bracket tourney match at "This Is It", 31/1/10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXHFgDSrpA8

Scabe (Link) vs Silfa (DK) March 15, 2010 — Mid Tier Tourney match.
1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCUSJxra2_A
2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4S8oicVLYc&feature=related

Scabe (Link) vs Silfa (Donkey Kong) 3/3 Friendly Offline 24/9/09
1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68N7VecWe5s&feature=related
2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK2D8IkfKiI&feature=related
3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj_S5NAKZRk
​

​

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Thanks Scabe.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Yup, bombs are definitely Link's greatest tool, approaching a Link with a bomb is no fun. At all. Also, Zair is stupid. DK's tilts cancel out arrows and the boomerang. DKs DownB has mad range so it'll be used if a Link just chills on the ground too long (or just when he's pulling out a bomb)

I definitely agree with 60:40, even when Link camps, it's only a matter of time 'till he gets gimped.

 

[Ryos4]

The main thing that really gets me Vs Dk is his super armor. I tend to eat a lot of reverse DK punches to the face from being too aggressive in this match up.

 

[Rizen]

^Shield grabbing DK's landings can be useful. DK's Bair is annoyingly long and chainable. Bombs/Zair are the way to go, like people said. Platform camp DK with an occasional Dair from a safe, auto-canceling, height.
6/4 DK's favor- at best for Link, I can see 65-35 DK too.

 

[Ryos4]

I also find it really hard to actually kill a defensive DK. Sure i can damage him to above 200%. But if he keeps running away, its rather hard to land a killing blow. I either have to go way out of my way to set it up or hope they make a mistake.

Something is obviously wrong when Link is forced to approach DK for anything to happen.