Meta Mastery of the Arts - Greninja Matchup Thread Archive

[Sosuke]

that Greninja lost because he couldn't land kill moves, there's no way the match up is worse than 60-40 in Greninja's favor

 

[DrSoussou]

Does this surprise you:: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vue2zT4UQik

Not surprised at all, haha.

That was a very good match, and that Greninja is no pushover, but Charizard prevailed because he played more patiently and conservatively. If Greninja had done throughout game what he was doing to Charizard during stock 1, he would have destroyed his opponent. But he didn't. He got Charizard to kill % and then tunnel-visioned for the KO, completely changing his playstyle in the process.

Charizard with rage is one of the most dangerous opponents in the game, and going toe-to-toe with him is a bad idea, especially if it isn't necessary. If anything, that video proves how one-sided this matchup can be in Greninja's favor if it is played properly.

Also, it looks like I was right about the Flamethrower edge-guard. Greninja only took 7% by continuously HPing into it until the flames extinguished. Later in game 1, he even found an opportunity to shark Charizard through the ledge with up-air, which is a very intelligent and effective counter to that strategy.

 

[Funkermonster]

Loos like I oughta go pay that guy who made the rebuttal post a visit then..

 

[Spirst]

I actually think Rosalina is one of Greninja's harder matchups. Can't gimp Rosalina because her recovery is godlike and she just has to wait and UpB from below. Small shuriken gets eaten by Luma, and even if you DO fire enough to pop it, it comes back in 7 seconds while your opponent runs away. Large shuriken is only good if you're catching your opponent's landing. If you're in neutral, she just uses Down-B and negates it. If you think that move has enough lag to allow you to run in and punish her for it, you're gonna eat a frame 4 downsmash and wish you hadn't. Greninja's grab game is one of his best attributes, and it gets completely negated by Luma, who can hit you with a smash attack anytime you go for a grab. If you're fighting an aggressive Rosalina, you have all these problems and more. Her dash-attack, roll, and down-smash cover almost all of your offense options that aren't stuffed by Luma, not to mention that Greninja really isnt a heavy character at all (rather average bulk, imo) and Rosalina can often land two hits for the price of one thanks to Luma.

I would love serious answers to this problem because I can't beat the best Rosalinas and I often feel like its not because I'm doing anything wrong.

Honestly, I haven't faced stellar (pun not intended) Rosalina players so I'm not sure exactly how the matchup goes but one of Greninja's issues, KO power, is more negated by Rosalina's lightweight. Luma is a pain in the ass, but you can sometimes get a grab in considering how fast Greninja is and how fast the other player needs to react. Rosalina needs proper spacing to breathe and I feel like Greninja is annoying in that regard. I wonder how Greninja fares in the air against Rosalina. He's usually stronger on the ground, but with Luma there, he might have an easier time in the air baiting her rather slow aerials as well as abusing her slow falling speed.

 

[SolarDeath]

What's is everyone's input on facing a fast combo machining Captain Falcon player? I feel like a rag doll at low percents when I'm in the air, and I can't seem to land a kill.
He's so fast and has brute force to take us out easily! I died from many up airs at around 60-70% range, granted I should've probably air dodged but they leave no room to breath it seems :3 Like our play style

 

[bajisci]

Honestly, I haven't faced stellar (pun not intended) Rosalina players so I'm not sure exactly how the matchup goes but one of Greninja's issues, KO power, is more negated by Rosalina's lightweight. Luma is a pain in the ***, but you can sometimes get a grab in considering how fast Greninja is and how fast the other player needs to react. Rosalina needs proper spacing to breathe and I feel like Greninja is annoying in that regard. I wonder how Greninja fares in the air against Rosalina. He's usually stronger on the ground, but with Luma there, he might have an easier time in the air baiting her rather slow aerials as well as abusing her slow falling speed.

I played dabuz a bunch and its a tough matchup, I really can't tell who wins it. One of the issues of the matchup is Luma prevents a lot of setups that greninja relys on like baiting airdodges and grabs. I tend to just play a hit & run tactic game vs rosalina and never commit hard to anything.

 

[Spirst]

What's is everyone's input on facing a fast combo machining Captain Falcon player? I feel like a rag doll at low percents when I'm in the air, and I can't seem to land a kill.
He's so fast and has brute force to take us out easily! I died from many up airs at around 60-70% range, granted I should've probably air dodged but they leave no room to breath it seems :3 Like our play style

Falcon's lack of projectile hurts him in this matchup. Greninja can match him and speed and Falcon's large hurtbox helps for utilt follow-ups and so forth. His jab, if I remember, can be beaten with our own jab and his recovery is pretty easy to gimp. As always, punish every little thing he does. Falcon kick has some cooldown time and leaves him open, as does the raptor boost. He's going to be wanting to do a lot of throws into aerials into an nair or uair so be ready to buffer jumps and airdodges. Shurikens can interupt his flow but hopped charged shurikens can be interrupted with his DA since he's quick enough. I don't think this is a particularly hard matchup but you have to be reactive and on point.

I played dabuz a bunch and its a tough matchup, I really can't tell who wins it. One of the issues of the matchup is Luma prevents a lot of setups that greninja relys on like baiting airdodges and grabs. I tend to just play a hit & run tactic game vs rosalina and never commit hard to anything.

Yeah, I played a decent Rosalina the other day and the grab follow-ups being diminished is a pain in the ass. Hit and run seems like the best tactic to try and bait the Luma shot for a rush-in.

 

[Coffee™]

Also, it looks like I was right about the Flamethrower edge-guard. Greninja only took 7% by continuously HPing into it until the flames extinguished. Later in game 1, he even found an opportunity to shark Charizard through the ledge with up-air, which is a very intelligent and effective counter to that strategy.

You can also just Up-B alongside the stage to avoid flamethrower completely.

 

[Funkermonster]

You can also just Up-B alongside the stage to avoid flamethrower completely.

And then get punished by Zard's Flare Blitz while you're in a helpless state, possibly killed if you're already at high damage and if Zard is in Rage mode. I wouldn't risk that, not worth it in my opinion.

 

[Coffee™]

And then get punished by Zard's Flare Blitz while you're in a helpless state, possibly killed if you're already at high damage and if Zard is in Rage mode. I wouldn't risk that, not worth it in my opinion.

I don't mean recovering onto the stage. I'm talking about recovering low and simply hugging the stage with Hydro Pump. In doing this Greninja will avoid the flames and simply grab the ledge. The Greninja in the video posted above did it like once or twice after being hit a bunch by Flamethrower initially.

 

[Jmacz]

I played against a really good DK player the other day and had a lot of problems recovering against him. I initially tried to wait it out and recover from the bottom but he would just spam down tilt and I would be unable to snap on the ledge. I tried shadow sneaking, but he read that like a book, and DK is surprisingly quick so recovering over his head wasn't working either. If I tried to challenge him head on in the air I'd get wrecked every time, his aerials all seemed to come out faster than mine and if I didn't doge he'd wait and just start spamming down tilt. Was I just that bad and not sweet spotting the ledge? I would Hydro Pump about 6-7 times, each time getting smacked by a down tilt just before I was able to grab the ledge until eventually I missed all together and died.

I played 3 games against him and it was the same thing every time, I tried to save the last game but my replay vault was full. Normally even if I'm getting my ass whooped I'm able to figure out ways around stuff like this, but it felt like I tried everything and none of it worked.

 

[Endeby]

What do you guys do to handle Lucario? Seem like one of our worse matchups, considering that it's hard to kill him early. I know Sheiks tend to have serious trouble with him.

 

[Gunla]

For me, my main Lucario issue is that I try to keep distance with Lucario because an Aura Sphere with lots of Aura is lethal. I've found that Substitute has it's better uses as a higher aura impatient Lucario may try to hastily go for a KO, and timing it right and aiming correctly can take one down if it's at a higher %.

 

[bajisci]

I time out lucarios now after dying to a side b at 70% on FD.

 

[Coffee™]

Not sure if it's general knowledge or not but you can use Hydro Pump to harass characters trying to recover from below the stage while never going off stage yourself. Basically position Greninja at edge that the opponent is trying to recover from and use Up B to go up then come back down in the same spot. The first pump will shoot water straight through the ledge downwards which can interrupt a lot of vertical recoveries like Mac, Marth/Lucina, Shulk, Diddy...etc,.

 

[FullMoon]

So, can anybody give me tips for fighting Villager? That slingshot drives me crazy because it comes out too fast for me to react and the llyoid is really annoying to get around when coupled with it.

 

[Funkermonster]

Advice against pit or Dark Pit?

 

[Accidental]

Not sure if it's general knowledge or not but you can use Hydro Pump to harass characters trying to recover from below the stage while never going off stage yourself. Basically position Greninja at edge that the opponent is trying to recover from and use Up B to go up then come back down in the same spot. The first pump will shoot water straight through the ledge downwards which can interrupt a lot of vertical recoveries like Mac, Marth/Lucina, Shulk, Diddy...etc,.

It's been mentioned in this thread.

Advice against pit or Dark Pit?

Jump over the arrows, and approach with a dair/nair. You dont want to spam shurikens in this matchup. Also, if you see the side b coming, dodge it and grab. His aerials are outmatched by yours.

 

[Primer TMT]

Greetings, I’m making a new clan named TMT (The Money Team)

We have our emblem already and three members. We are currently recruiting members. I want the best smashers of every character (only a really good player per character ((example: Since I play Ganondorf, if you main Ganondorf you cannot join))) So if anyone is interested PM me and I will test you guys as I am the leader of the crew. Ign: Brad. Hope to make a good and fun crew as we hone our skills for improvement and reach to be the best !

 

[MrFrigid]

Not sure if it's general knowledge or not but you can use Hydro Pump to harass characters trying to recover from below the stage while never going off stage yourself. Basically position Greninja at edge that the opponent is trying to recover from and use Up B to go up then come back down in the same spot. The first pump will shoot water straight through the ledge downwards which can interrupt a lot of vertical recoveries like Mac, Marth/Lucina, Shulk, Diddy...etc,.

This is actually so great.


I NEED HELP WITH G&W, ROBIN, AND FALCO.

 

[Accidental]

This is actually so great.


I NEED HELP WITH G&W, ROBIN, AND FALCO.

With Robin: Gimp the recovery with hydropump, dodge the arc fire, keep the opponent in the air.

With G&W: Space with shurikens, punish the hammer/dair with up tilts and grabs.

With Falco: Run in and get him above you. Then make sure he never touches the ground.

 

[Lemonade Candy]

Anyone else having problems with Duck Hunt and Sonic? I feel like their match ups involve them just running away with rolls the entire match causing me to be impatient. I do bait air dodges and punish silly things like sonic's dair. But Sonic's mobility and Duck Hunt's side b makes it really hard to approach or punish.

Edit: Didnt realize SolarDeath asked the same question.

 

[MrFrigid]

With Robin: Gimp the recovery with hydropump, dodge the arc fire, keep the opponent in the air.

With G&W: Space with shurikens, punish the hammer/dair with up tilts and grabs.

With Falco: Run in and get him above you. Then make sure he never touches the ground.

the falco one is a LOT harder said than done.

 

[G-Beast]

What's is everyone's input on facing a fast combo machining Captain Falcon player? I feel like a rag doll at low percents when I'm in the air, and I can't seem to land a kill.
He's so fast and has brute force to take us out easily! I died from many up airs at around 60-70% range, granted I should've probably air dodged but they leave no room to breath it seems :3 Like our play style

I personally find Captain Falcon to not really be that bad. In my experience, spacing bairs helps a lot in the MU and I find him especially easy to gimp with bair as well.

 

[Lemonade Candy]

Is this happening to anyone else?

 

[Spirst]

Is this happening to anyone else?

Yep. If you do the fsmash when you're so close your hurtboxes are overlapping, the hitbox for the fsmash will extend past the other character. It needs to be spaced out a bit more.

 

[Sosuke]

fsmash and dsmash both don't hit near Greninja, just another reason usmash is the best

 

[Spirst]

fsmash and dsmash both don't hit near Greninja, just another reason usmash is the best

That, and dsmash isn't so great even if it does hit

 

[Accidental]

the falco one is a LOT harder said than done.

Alternatively, dash shadow sneak past the blasters, up air, and run all over him.

 

[Karasu]

So far I have only problems with one character: Mario

His Fireballs are annoying as hell, he can cape my Shuriken and even the Hydropump and his attacks seem to be faster than Greninja's. If it weren't for the Cape I could gimp him easily but I end up killing myself with it.
How do you beat this guy?

 

[Funkermonster]

So far I have only problems with one character: Mario

His Fireballs are annoying as hell, he can cape my Shuriken and even the Hydropump and his attacks seem to be faster than Greninja's. If it weren't for the Cape I could gimp him easily but I end up killing myself with it.
How do you beat this guy?

Why gimp him with hydro pump when you can keep him out with Bair instead? Mario's recovery is ass if you hit him out of his midair jump given its short distance, and I believe you can just cancel out his (crappy) fireballs with a jab since they don't have this much priority. Besides his fireballs and his cape, he doesn't really have a lot of range on most of his other moves and he generally has difficulty landing KOs.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Hydro Pump is viable, it's just situational. Like we're talking Mario returning to the stage with Super Jump Punch and you using Hydro Pump so Mario misses the edge. You can pull off premature KOs with this. Though generally, you're either using the forward aerial or back aerial while Mario recovers, the former for a stronger guarantee and the latter as a safer alternative. Depending on the positioning, a uncharged Water Shuriken can be used to disrupt Mario too.

 

[Lemonade Candy]

Uptilt is so iffy too.

 

[MartinAW4]

If custom moves are allowed Greninja seems to have the best anti-Rosalina tool I`ve seen so far: Shifting Shuriken. The charged version pierces through everything just like the standard fully charged Water Shuriken. So it will go right through Luma, hit Rosalina and suck her towards you right into range of your Usmash which is a true combo. And because of her low weight, she will die off the top if you land an Usmash at around 90%.

Greninja is also one of the fastest characters in the game (5. tied with ZSS and Sheik), has great gimping moves in Hydro Pump and Bair and can even land sweetspot Usmashes against Rosalina standing on the ground because of how tall she is.
So it seems the Rosalina matchup should be in Greninja`s favor. Have any of you tried using Shifting Shuriken against a good Rosalina player to see how they deal with it?

 

[Sosuke]

So it seems the Rosalina matchup should be in Greninja`s favor. Have any of you tried using Shifting Shuriken against a good Rosalina player to see how they deal with it?

Yes, I've done this exact thing and it makes the match up way easier.
Like, way, way easier. It's about the only legitimate way to kill that character without them messing up from my experience.
Now with that and Dacus, the matchup -should- be in Greninja's favor. Without either, it's hard to tell as neither character can approach. This is the only character I've had games go to time against.

Also, set distance shadow sneak is great too.

 

[Sync.]

After today's tournament, I realized we should really discuss a few of Greninja' harder matchups. Rosalina, Sheik and Diddy. They are seriously CRAZY. I can see those characters being pretty threatening as they develop in the meta.

 

[DrSoussou]

I played dabuz a bunch and its a tough matchup, I really can't tell who wins it. One of the issues of the matchup is Luma prevents a lot of setups that greninja relys on like baiting airdodges and grabs. I tend to just play a hit & run tactic game vs rosalina and never commit hard to anything.

I've only gotten to play Xaltis, but all the matches we play end up being close until the last stock. It may just be my grabby playstyle, but I feel like I can't do anything I want with Luma waiting to punish me. I probably just need more practice in the matchup.

 

[Funkermonster]

May we talk abut the matchup with Villager ? On a lot of matches (maybe its because I play on FD most of the time) he gives me hell.

1. His UpB is probably the best recovery in the game, and it feels useless for me to try and gimp him.
2. His Fair slingshot comes out fast and has some hitstun on it and he's got a good projectile in his Lloyd rocket, both of which seem to aid his already godlike recovery and makes edgeguarding even harder, at least for me.
3. Lloyd Rocket and his Tree block my uncharged shurikens so he doesn't get hit. If I throw to throw a charged one, he just pockets it and fires it back at me when I least suspect it.
4. His Bowling Ball Smash attack seems to kill anyone who tries recovering low, and his Tree Seems like a great edgeguarding move.

I almost feel he is OP, but I think I'm always struggling more due to my lack of matchup knowledge against him. People look at Rosalina, Sheik, and Diddy Kong as some of the top threats, but Villager makes hell for me in comparison.

 

[MartinAW4]

Yes, I've done this exact thing and it makes the match up way easier.
Like, way, way easier. It's about the only legitimate way to kill that character without them messing up from my experience.
Now with that and Dacus, the matchup -should- be in Greninja's favor. Without either, it's hard to tell as neither character can approach. This is the only character I've had games go to time against.

Also, set distance shadow sneak is great too.

Glad to hear Shifting Shuriken also works against good Rosalina players. Hopefully custom moves become the standard in tournament play.

And how do you use Shadow Dash (SD)? I liked the idea of a faster Shadow Sneak (SS) at first, but when I realized that the ending lag is still the same and the damage is reduced from 10 and 12 to 6 and 7, I decided I liked the regular SS more. There`s also the problem, which will hopefully be solved with the release of the WiiU version with a Gamecube controller, that if you accidentally SD off stage, it takes longer for you to regain control than a minimal distance SS, so you`re more likely to die.

Basically SD`s only advantage over SS I could think of is its upwards launching angle and its defensive use in avoiding an attack with the teleport since you don`t need to charge the shadow. But I find that roll -> Dtilt or Jab does the same job but is much safer if they shield or dodge.
What I don`t like about SD is that it doesn`t let me do any of the things that make SS unique: punishing players who try to attack me after a Dair, hitting players who try to edguard me and as a surprise kill move (SD doesn`t kill until around 200% vs 110% from SS).

 

[Spirst]

Glad to hear Shifting Shuriken also works against good Rosalina players. Hopefully custom moves become the standard in tournament play.

And how do you use Shadow Dash (SD)? I liked the idea of a faster Shadow Sneak (SS) at first, but when I realized that the ending lag is still the same and the damage is reduced from 10 and 12 to 6 and 7, I decided I liked the regular SS more. There`s also the problem, which will hopefully be solved with the release of the WiiU version with a Gamecube controller, that if you accidentally SD off stage, it takes longer for you to regain control than a minimal distance SS, so you`re more likely to die.

Basically SD`s only advantage over SS I could think of is its upwards launching angle and its defensive use in avoiding an attack with the teleport since you don`t need to charge the shadow. But I find that roll -> Dtilt or Jab does the same job but is much safer if they shield or dodge.
What I don`t like about SD is that it doesn`t let me do any of the things that make SS unique: punishing players who try to attack me after a Dair, hitting players who try to edguard me and as a surprise kill move (SD doesn`t kill until around 200% vs 110% from SS).

With the weak KO potential of SD, I think it's more about pressure and limiting your opponents options as opposed to being a reliable kill move. It's about instilling the mindset of, "Okay, if I try to camp Greninja, he'll get through and shadow dash me." Against characters trying to keep you at midrange like Mega Man with his lemons, shadow dash can really mess with him. It can help against Rosalina as well when evading a luma shot or just getting in.