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Official Master's Dojo - Greninja Matchup Thread

SSB ReVerb

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Either Pikachu or Rosalina would be perfectly fine choices in my opinion. I think it's important we look at them first being as they are very good characters that we have a better chance to see in bracket than someone like Zelda or DDD. Rosalina has been a controversial matchup as well especially with Falln putting it as +2 Rosa's favor on his chart so I am very interested.
 

bc1910

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I think Greninja loses to Rosalina 45:55 at best, 40:60 at worst. Probably the latter. Not unwinnable but very tough if the Rosa knows what they're doing. Sadly we don't have many examples of this MU at high level. Note that iStudying's victory over Willxy at BEAST wasn't a good example of the MU IMO, Willxy clearly didn't know the MU and isn't really a high level Rosa.

I know @Dabuz messes around with Greninja and has played iStudying in friendlies so I'd be interested to hear his thoughts on this. To reiterate I think this MU is probably 40:60 Greninja's disadvantage.
 

bc1910

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Everyone seems to think we lose to Pikachu but I don't see why. Should be even, any advantage for either character is very slight.

The immortal ESAM vs iStudying set. This is old but still worth analysing - do bear in mind it's old though.


Things to note:
  • People often claim iStudying only won by winning Game 4 by the skin of his teeth, but please note that he had Game 1 in the bag before getting thunderspiked. This would have given him the counterpick advantage throughout the whole set. Some more MU knowledge would have allowed him to avoid this (a simple airdodge or slightly delayed jump would have sufficed), we shouldn't be dying to thunderspikes.
  • Greninja's high mobility and range force Pikachu to commit to any kill option. Even dashgrab is a fair commitment considering Pikachu's awful grab range, and Uthrow > RAR Thunder is inconsistent.
  • Greninja can be walled out by Pikachu's Fair and other aerials semi-reliably. I think Pikachu has the slight edge in neutral, but he can't get careless with Quick Attack because of Hydro Pump (which hard counters aerial QA and is safe to throw out).
  • Greninja has been buffed since this set. His faster DA and grab in particular are useful against Pikachu.
  • Since this set, the Pika/Ninja record in bracket has been fairly even.
  • ESAM thinks this MU is even.
 
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Lawliet626

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Oh shoot im late lol
Gonna write my thoughts on rosa and DDD since I have decent experience against both characters

:rosalina:
We have MANY ways of getting rid of luma which are Dash attack, last hit of bair, simple jab combo, fair (when luma already has some percentage stacked), heck we even have dash attack to back air as a true combo on luma just to get rid of it.
Putting that aside the MU will be all getting rid of luma and catching rosa when shes playing defensive, when she DOES have luma, she can make it pretty hard to catch her and can throw out a lot of safe moves with luma bs, plus she has some nice juggles on us but we also have some options to get away from them and mix our landing, we also can edge guard her pretty decently
Shuriken are good plus you can short hop them, and throw them where it hits rosas head and not luma, just remember she can just spam down B. Just remember that if you have the lead and she keeps absorbing shuriken, let her do so by all means since she will have to stop and approach eventually.
Last thing on my head is that if she tries to trap you between her jab and lumas, you can roll behind her and punish her for it.
Personally think the MU is 50:50


:4dedede:
-Hes combo food
-Its also an MU where you gotta know when to camp and when to go in
-You're better off killing him horizontally
-Don't be afraid to use gordos for dair, jump/run under them to punish DDD (that's if you can still punish him by the time you get to him depending on the distance)
-You can SSHC out of his jab
-Although shuriken is pretty good for gordos, bairs also do a pretty good job sending them back
-DDD also like to nair alot as previously mentioned, if you dont punish it on time, make sure to take note of what he does afterwards (they usually like to either dtilt or jab)
-Fighting at midrange isnt the best idea due to his hammers disjoint
-Edge guard him like crazy, since its your best bet to kill him since getting a read will most likely work at high percents where he feeds off rage
-When hes edge guarding you, pay close attention to the angle he shoots his gordos (he only has 3 angles), and wait for the right moment to either hit one back, or get back to the stage
-If he up Bs to the stage and tries to land on you, thats a free substitute
-Shadow sneak CAN get you of of jab, especially if hes not expecting it and tries to go for jab1. jab2, grab

I had the pleasure of playing Bryce who is an amazing DDD btw and was able to get this from our matches, I also like to mess around with DDD and have played the MU from both sides
Id say its an in between of 55:45 and 60:40 our favor
The MU needs to be played campy but also at a range that extends a bit more from midrange.
 

◥θ┴θ◤ | Locke

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Pika has better OOS game, better combos, better time landing, is better at edgeguarding, and has a better recovery. Who is better at zoning is debatable when paired against each other.

I would say the reasons listed above are what contribute to people putting the pika-gren mu in pikas favor. Just pika being better at specific things, even if it feels even to play.
 

Y2Kay

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Is there still any interest in this thread? I'll bring it back, but participation really dwindles at times.

:150:
 

Y2Kay

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I'm bringing this back anyway!

let's finish this chart before SSBU comes!

This week, we'll cover :ultluigi: and :ultganondorf:

:150:
 

SJMistery

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About Mewtwo above... Up Smash will kill at 70, and his laggy jump means easy Up-airs

The Ganondorf matchiup... LOL. That's free combo video
Luigi is volatile, thanks to the Down-B messing up Hydro Pump, and Greninja is a fast faller that means Luigi can combo for days, but Luigi is combo fodder too and has predictable recovery, and we have two very strong spikes.
 
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Y2Kay

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Luigi :ultluigi:

Greninja's effective range is notably farther than Luigi's. Luigi wants to close in on you so that he can outbox you wityh Fair, Bair, and Nair. Max spaced Fair, and shuriken are obviously your go to zoning tools for the matchup. Luigi will try to powershield > through ur shurikens so make sure to mixup the charge times on shuriken. Luigi will also try to fireball camp as well and react to your response. Respect Luigi's amazing aerials and DON'T approach. Most of your damage will come from zoning, juggling, and edgeguarding, so don't force anything, it will almost always go wrong. Also, Don't be hasty in your recovery either due to cyclone gimping.

:150:
 

SJMistery

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Bair can help against Luigi too, it can outrange his own aerials and has WAY less lag than Fair, so it's less commital. It is completely unsafe on shield unless at very specific circumstances, so don't spam it.
 

Redblur44

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Ganondorf :ultganondorf:

I say this match-up is heavily in our favor which I put 60:40 Because ganondorf is very slow for one,so we can get in and get in and get out of his range, two he's combo food since he's a heavy so we can juggle him in the air very well.


Some things I would like to say thst his Up Smash had no ending lag so he can use any other move as a burst option and be careful when juggling in the air be mindful of his down b and down air if you do not tech you can die at high percentage or be spike.

If you feel pressured by him use water shuriken to zone him out or F-air. And if he's off stage you can either stage spike him with d-air or bair , use Hydro pump to intercept his recovery or use water shuriken to gimp him.

Also watch out for his side b off stage that could cost you the game


*heavies in general have a hard time getting in so zone them out*

Heres a clip from a set from Istudying vs Adom at Syndicate 2017
 
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