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Official Master's Dojo - Greninja Matchup Thread
- Thread starter Y2Kay
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#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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Greninja slightly beats Charizard.
Charizard has some strong punishes but Greninja can make him combo food and Charizard needs to be extra careful off stage when recovering since Greninja's UpB can make him die easily. Flamethrower can cover Greninja using UpB to the ledge but Greninja catching charizard is stronger than the other way around. Charizard does have a good recovery but he still has to be careful in a match-up like this.
Greninja doesn't have the KO power on Charizard outside of Usmash which can kill him easily while catching his landings. Use Water Shuriken to make him have to come to you while also limited Charizard's fast ground speed.
Charizard should be looking for strong punishes and fast KOs. Greninja is a middle weight so he will not die as early as say like shiek/pika/Bayonetta etc. But more around like Ness dying percents.
Charizard would most likely ban FD I feel since he want to land and do something in this match-up. He will want a platform set-up to help him land or let him get some cheese off like the tree on duck hunt. I see Charizard going for Dreamland or Battlefield more often than not in this MU. While Charizard has much better landing options than other heavies it's still a weakness for him since if you call what he will do you can punish it well.
Both characters stronger KO options in terms of being reliable would be vertical I feel like. Greninja can kill horizontally still pretty decently but not super lol like a Charizard bair can. I think Greninja would be aiming for fair kills more often than other kinds of moves he would use unless he catches with a Fsmash, maybe more charged Water Shuriken would also do the trick.
+1 Greninja overall but still can go either way I feel like.
Charizard has some strong punishes but Greninja can make him combo food and Charizard needs to be extra careful off stage when recovering since Greninja's UpB can make him die easily. Flamethrower can cover Greninja using UpB to the ledge but Greninja catching charizard is stronger than the other way around. Charizard does have a good recovery but he still has to be careful in a match-up like this.
Greninja doesn't have the KO power on Charizard outside of Usmash which can kill him easily while catching his landings. Use Water Shuriken to make him have to come to you while also limited Charizard's fast ground speed.
Charizard should be looking for strong punishes and fast KOs. Greninja is a middle weight so he will not die as early as say like shiek/pika/Bayonetta etc. But more around like Ness dying percents.
Charizard would most likely ban FD I feel since he want to land and do something in this match-up. He will want a platform set-up to help him land or let him get some cheese off like the tree on duck hunt. I see Charizard going for Dreamland or Battlefield more often than not in this MU. While Charizard has much better landing options than other heavies it's still a weakness for him since if you call what he will do you can punish it well.
Both characters stronger KO options in terms of being reliable would be vertical I feel like. Greninja can kill horizontally still pretty decently but not super lol like a Charizard bair can. I think Greninja would be aiming for fair kills more often than other kinds of moves he would use unless he catches with a Fsmash, maybe more charged Water Shuriken would also do the trick.
+1 Greninja overall but still can go either way I feel like.
Ludiloco
Smash Journeyman
We have a really good Villager here in Colorado, we've gone back and forth so I'll give some input.
I feel that this matchup is even or slightly Greninja's favor. Villager has to play an incredibly patient game to win, but the problem is when Greninja gets a lead and doesn't approach it can be hard for Villager to net a kill. It's really hard for Greninja to kill Villager as well, and as a result I've had a couple matches go to time or have just spammed shurikens until I could up throw for a victory.
Slingshot is really good at controlling the air, so you can't get too jump happy, but at the same time lloid rockets do a good job controlling the ground. The nice thing is, Greninja is fast enough to where lloid is punishable at midrange. If Villager pulls one out too close, run in and punish him with a grab or dash attack. The hitbox on lloids doesn't start until it starts moving, so you have a solid couple seconds to get in there. If you're too far away, just throw a shuriken to blow up the rocket so Villager can't get reads off your reaction to them.
Overall this is definitely a matchup where you want Villager to be doing most of the work. Villager's defense and anti-approach (bowling ball, pivot grab, nair, slingshot) is too strong to rely on things like Greninja nair to start offense, so make him come to you. You should put away your full charged shurikens in this matchup, Villager risks nothing to pocket them and they can score him an easy kill. Throw the uncharged variant constantly, they're too fast to do much with and pocketing them does him almost no good.
Villager will often set up camp behind a tree and throw rockets to get you to approach. Just wait for the tree to die or him to cut it, and stand out of reach throwing shurikens. If they approach with tree up, they are looking for axe so be careful. Take your opportunity to approach when the tree dies (if you're not in the lead), as it takes a long time to set up another and he can't when you're in his face. If you're in the lead, you should not be approaching ever.
Out of Greninja up throw, Villager will often try to mash dair to punish your up air follow up. Since dair has some startup and up air is disjointed, you should be able to beat the turnips out most of the time for extra damage. If you're late, it's better to try to wait and catch the landing instead.
Believe it or not, Villager is actually pretty fun to edge guard in my opinion. It's a challenge, especially with how far his balloons take him, but definitely not impossible and I've gotten several crucial kills from edge guarding. Retreating fair will hit him every time if he tries to short hop fair from the ledge, until he mixes up his timing. Use this to your advantage, as it's a pretty common Villager habit.
When Villager is offstage, they tend to try to distract you with a million things so they can get to the ledge. Use shurikens to knock him low enough to where he has to balloon (and not just wall jump), and then you can go out and hit him. If he rides the stage on his way up, bair will be an almost guaranteed untechable stage spike. If you time it right, you can even pop the balloons with one bair (or hydro pump if you're a god)! If you keep him out there eventually he'll lose his balloons and you can hydro pump his drift for a free KO.
On the flipside, Villager is one of the few characters that makes recovery ridiculously hard with Greninja. You need to really know what he's going to do, because bowling ball will annihilate your low recoveries and slingshot or axe will intercept a high hydro pump. If there is a high platform available (BF/DL), sometimes that can be a safe haven but if he reads it you can also get hit with an up air. There's no great way to consistently recover vs Villager, but just know his vertical mobility is pretty limited so if you go up high enough most likely he won't hit you. Otherwise, mix up going to the ledge and going past him on stage to keep him guessing, as he can't really cover every option.
But yeah, that's pretty much how it goes. Villager shouldn't kill you if you play patiently and mix up your recovery, and if you can get an up smash setup or fair setup to work early you'll put yourself in a great position. Don't be afraid to time Villager out, either. Better that than eating a bowling ball with a 100% lead and dying.
Edit: I'm sorry, I missed the boat on the new season. Hope this is still helpful/accepted.
I feel that this matchup is even or slightly Greninja's favor. Villager has to play an incredibly patient game to win, but the problem is when Greninja gets a lead and doesn't approach it can be hard for Villager to net a kill. It's really hard for Greninja to kill Villager as well, and as a result I've had a couple matches go to time or have just spammed shurikens until I could up throw for a victory.
Slingshot is really good at controlling the air, so you can't get too jump happy, but at the same time lloid rockets do a good job controlling the ground. The nice thing is, Greninja is fast enough to where lloid is punishable at midrange. If Villager pulls one out too close, run in and punish him with a grab or dash attack. The hitbox on lloids doesn't start until it starts moving, so you have a solid couple seconds to get in there. If you're too far away, just throw a shuriken to blow up the rocket so Villager can't get reads off your reaction to them.
Overall this is definitely a matchup where you want Villager to be doing most of the work. Villager's defense and anti-approach (bowling ball, pivot grab, nair, slingshot) is too strong to rely on things like Greninja nair to start offense, so make him come to you. You should put away your full charged shurikens in this matchup, Villager risks nothing to pocket them and they can score him an easy kill. Throw the uncharged variant constantly, they're too fast to do much with and pocketing them does him almost no good.
Villager will often set up camp behind a tree and throw rockets to get you to approach. Just wait for the tree to die or him to cut it, and stand out of reach throwing shurikens. If they approach with tree up, they are looking for axe so be careful. Take your opportunity to approach when the tree dies (if you're not in the lead), as it takes a long time to set up another and he can't when you're in his face. If you're in the lead, you should not be approaching ever.
Out of Greninja up throw, Villager will often try to mash dair to punish your up air follow up. Since dair has some startup and up air is disjointed, you should be able to beat the turnips out most of the time for extra damage. If you're late, it's better to try to wait and catch the landing instead.
Believe it or not, Villager is actually pretty fun to edge guard in my opinion. It's a challenge, especially with how far his balloons take him, but definitely not impossible and I've gotten several crucial kills from edge guarding. Retreating fair will hit him every time if he tries to short hop fair from the ledge, until he mixes up his timing. Use this to your advantage, as it's a pretty common Villager habit.
When Villager is offstage, they tend to try to distract you with a million things so they can get to the ledge. Use shurikens to knock him low enough to where he has to balloon (and not just wall jump), and then you can go out and hit him. If he rides the stage on his way up, bair will be an almost guaranteed untechable stage spike. If you time it right, you can even pop the balloons with one bair (or hydro pump if you're a god)! If you keep him out there eventually he'll lose his balloons and you can hydro pump his drift for a free KO.
On the flipside, Villager is one of the few characters that makes recovery ridiculously hard with Greninja. You need to really know what he's going to do, because bowling ball will annihilate your low recoveries and slingshot or axe will intercept a high hydro pump. If there is a high platform available (BF/DL), sometimes that can be a safe haven but if he reads it you can also get hit with an up air. There's no great way to consistently recover vs Villager, but just know his vertical mobility is pretty limited so if you go up high enough most likely he won't hit you. Otherwise, mix up going to the ledge and going past him on stage to keep him guessing, as he can't really cover every option.
But yeah, that's pretty much how it goes. Villager shouldn't kill you if you play patiently and mix up your recovery, and if you can get an up smash setup or fair setup to work early you'll put yourself in a great position. Don't be afraid to time Villager out, either. Better that than eating a bowling ball with a 100% lead and dying.
Edit: I'm sorry, I missed the boat on the new season. Hope this is still helpful/accepted.
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Nathan Richardson
Smash Ace
Charizard FG user here and I think can shed a tiny bit of light on the zard/ninia matchup on my end and honestly it's actually a lot more even than what people think.
Greninja's upb can mess up charizard but ONLY if charizard gets put in that position first. Zard's love aggressive greninjas because that's what they can effortlessly punish. Especially shadow sneak, if charizard shields that you're going to be eating a NASTY dsmash, all of greninja's aerials are countered by rock smash so greninja can't simply jump in and combo zard because he's expecting that and zard counters combos with rock smash and fly (super armor is nasty on zard's moves)
Things especially go south for greninja if zard manages to grab him, zard's grab range is the longest of any characters without a tether and if he establishes his grab early say hello to a downthrow>fair, dthrow>upsmash, or back throw>fair.
Combine that with flamethrower which cancels out water shurikan and you've got problems. And that's if zard doesn't consistently hit you with his jab!
Once you establish the combo or play hit-and-run then things start going in greninja's favor, zard has a quick dash but not as quick as greninja so a greninja playing keep away is the most frustrating thing a zard can encounter. Zard only has his flamethrower and grab to really punish shields consistently without getting heavily punished himself so a passive playing greninja will just laugh off zard's attempts to rush him down while using counters, shurikans and shadow sneak not to mention his superior air speed to make zard's fight a royal pain.
TL;DR zard wins the matchup if greninja plays too aggressively but loses more easily if greninja camps or plays defensively.
Greninja's upb can mess up charizard but ONLY if charizard gets put in that position first. Zard's love aggressive greninjas because that's what they can effortlessly punish. Especially shadow sneak, if charizard shields that you're going to be eating a NASTY dsmash, all of greninja's aerials are countered by rock smash so greninja can't simply jump in and combo zard because he's expecting that and zard counters combos with rock smash and fly (super armor is nasty on zard's moves)
Things especially go south for greninja if zard manages to grab him, zard's grab range is the longest of any characters without a tether and if he establishes his grab early say hello to a downthrow>fair, dthrow>upsmash, or back throw>fair.
Combine that with flamethrower which cancels out water shurikan and you've got problems. And that's if zard doesn't consistently hit you with his jab!
Once you establish the combo or play hit-and-run then things start going in greninja's favor, zard has a quick dash but not as quick as greninja so a greninja playing keep away is the most frustrating thing a zard can encounter. Zard only has his flamethrower and grab to really punish shields consistently without getting heavily punished himself so a passive playing greninja will just laugh off zard's attempts to rush him down while using counters, shurikans and shadow sneak not to mention his superior air speed to make zard's fight a royal pain.
TL;DR zard wins the matchup if greninja plays too aggressively but loses more easily if greninja camps or plays defensively.
FullMoon
i'm just joking with you
Greninja shouldn't be using Shadow Sneak in neutral in the first place unless they're going for a hard read or are simply bad.
Spaced F-Air outranges both Rock Smash and Fly.
Wrong
If Greninja is in Flamethrower range he shouldn't be using shurikens in the first place.
You're basically saying Charizard wins as long as you don't play the MU properly which is, well, duh. A MU discussion should assume both characters are playing optimally against each other.
I don't wanna be rude but For Glory really isn't a very good place to look through if you want to get good MU experience, you seem to be basing most of what you're saying on FG Greninjas which are... not very good.
Derpnaster
Smash Journeyman
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If I'm correct Greninja's pivot grab is the longest non tethered grab in the game. Yoshi might be the closest in comparison though. I'm not too well versed in it these days
Nathan Richardson
Smash Ace
I'm not going to argue that FG is a real mixed bag of quality, most people who play are average but then you get the truly awful ones and then the awesome ones. On a side note what was that link you showed me? I saw a greninja and a zard but they weren't doing anything , on a side note when I said that grab was the longest pivot grabs weren't taken into account as I thought it was self-evident that pivots don't apply in my example. Zard can't really pivot due to his size and the amount of time it takes for him to turn around is awful.
Derpnaster
Smash Journeyman
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I was strictly referring to overall grab length, pivots included (BTW they are universally tiny, like single digits in frames, the lizard can pivot grab it just takes a very fast flick of the jpystick to pivot. that said even standing Greninja dominates most of the cast for gab length, even Lucas is a close race for grab length and he has a tether grab. The price we pay for such crazy range is we have a very slow (Still faster than Zelda as of 1.1.5) startup and massive endlag on a wiff
bc1910
Smash Lord
The video clearly shows Charizard spamming his standing grab at Greninja and whiffing. Greninja then grabs once and hits Zard, showing that he has a longer standing grab range.
You shouldn't be talking pure For Glory evidence, much less starting your posts with "FG Zard here". Come on bro. I'm sure you know this.
Fullmoon already corrected some of your points, so I'll just reiterate that saying "X character loses unless they play defensively" doesn't mean they lose the MU. It just means they need to... play defensively.
Nathan Richardson
Smash Ace
Right right at the end of my post I did say that greninja needs to play defensively I get that MU matchups aren't just on FG but tbh that's the only one I can play, if there's a regional competitive seen in my state I don't know about it but this is getting SEVERELY off topic. Back to the discussion of the greninja MUs but I'm going to stay out of it if FG doesn't even deserve to be mentioned in the MU matchup.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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That's Bowser.
Charizard using fly is as an OoS option or as to win a trade for a kill due to super armor.
Fair might outrange Rock smash, not sure about the rock shards, but I'm thinking if a situation that would clash right there.
FullMoon
i'm just joking with you
I tested it myself on training, the rock shards seemed to always miss Greninja at the max distance in which he can land F-Air on Zard, I didn't test it very throughly though so I could've missed something.
I'm think with spaced F-Air Greninja can stay at a safe distance enough from Charizard that Fly will miss, and F-Air is only -5 on shield while Fly is frame 9, though I guess adding the 4 hard landing lag would make it possible to catch Greninja if he's in range.
#HBC | Red Ryu
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It's more so I don't see him using fly unless he is aiming for that punish off that used poorly or some other situation.
It's like using fly against spaced Ike fair or something, you don't unless they space horribly.
FullMoon
i'm just joking with you
Oh, I got it now. I misunderstood what you were saying earlier, my apologies.
Next Session Will Be and
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Hey, so I play Akashic quite a bit, and I think I have a decent grasp of the matchup. I'd start by saying it's 55-45 Olimar's favor. The main reasons being; Greninja's weight makes killing him easy, hitting his ledge snap with down smash is one of the easier characters to hit, and his frame data isn't the fastest meaning he usually needs some start up time to hit me.
I think he does have some decent tools though. His bair is fast enough to catch Olimar off beat, and his fair is solid shield pressure. It comes down to the Greninja abusing his movement speed to start pressure with aerials or dash grabs. Once you have Olimar in the air if you can consistently read/react to his options the only real way for him to land is to whistle your attack or retreat to ledge. Shuriken here and there in mid range is nice as well to disrupt Olimar and not let him get complacent with filtering his line.
The doozy comes when Olimar gets in on you though. Greninja doesn't have the best get off of me options which means Olimar can get some strong combos on him, even more so if he reads the shadow sneaks. Purples disrupt almost everything Greninja can do except fair and nair approached, but those have their own weaknesses. The best way to get in on Olimar is to abuse your speed and sit mid range. Use footsies and mix up the grab/ short hop aerials to get in. Keeping Olimar guessing makes it infinitely harder to deal with the speed. If Olimar does get you try to reset to ledge and mix up your options getting back. He has it easy punishing Greninja on the ledge so watch out for dsmash, and dtilt.
Overall it can swing either way, but I think Olimar's advantages give him an easier time killing and ledge guarding. If anyone has questions shoot them my way!
I think he does have some decent tools though. His bair is fast enough to catch Olimar off beat, and his fair is solid shield pressure. It comes down to the Greninja abusing his movement speed to start pressure with aerials or dash grabs. Once you have Olimar in the air if you can consistently read/react to his options the only real way for him to land is to whistle your attack or retreat to ledge. Shuriken here and there in mid range is nice as well to disrupt Olimar and not let him get complacent with filtering his line.
The doozy comes when Olimar gets in on you though. Greninja doesn't have the best get off of me options which means Olimar can get some strong combos on him, even more so if he reads the shadow sneaks. Purples disrupt almost everything Greninja can do except fair and nair approached, but those have their own weaknesses. The best way to get in on Olimar is to abuse your speed and sit mid range. Use footsies and mix up the grab/ short hop aerials to get in. Keeping Olimar guessing makes it infinitely harder to deal with the speed. If Olimar does get you try to reset to ledge and mix up your options getting back. He has it easy punishing Greninja on the ledge so watch out for dsmash, and dtilt.
Overall it can swing either way, but I think Olimar's advantages give him an easier time killing and ledge guarding. If anyone has questions shoot them my way!
SSB ReVerb
Smash Rookie
Well now that we've moved on to a new session that involves Olimar, I guess now is a perfect time to post this set between Consome and Shuton. As far as I know, this is the highest level video representation of the matchup that we have to date so hopefully this adds to the discussion. Do note that Consome was able to win this set as well. I personally believe this MU is even but I have limited experience overall so I'll refrain from trying to debate. Hope to learn a thing or two about this matchup from the eventual conversations:
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I am a noob so i'll limit myself to facts gathered against some level 9 Artificial Incompetence enemies, who are supposed to have instant reaction time. Down B unexpectedly shines on the Olimar matchup. As we all know, this move is too weak and predictable to work reliably, which is a shame ad it has tremendous knockback and can be activated at full power regardless of what you counter, even with incredibly weak moves Bayonetta's bullets or Fox's blaster, and also acts as an incredibly laggy sidestep. But, for some reason, it activates with the attacks of the attached red and yellow pikmin. This means that if Olimar throws them you can potentially surprise Olimar with an instant point blank range Substitute. And at mid percents he will either die or go offstage where he will be easy target for Greninja's aerials. If a L9 CPU with his one-frame timing cannot respond to that, nobody should.
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Watching that set vs Some and Shuton I noticed a few things. First off it seemed as if Shuton wasn't super familiar in the matchup. He gave up qutie a few dsmash at the ledges instead opting for dtilt, which missed a bit. Secondly he wasn't taking into account the shadow sneaks after dthrow. Some didn't seem to be to aggro with fair pressure, but that's probably because Japanese play more reserved overall.
I'm gonna link 2 sets between me and Akashic here. One with him winning, and one with me winning. I'd wager we play the matchup more than anyone else, and even though he may not be on Some's level I'm most definitely on Shuton's so it is a different take on the matchup at top level. I think it can be played a few different ways, I feel mine and Akashic's is on the more aggressive end as we both try to match each other's speed.
Here's the set where I win https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIBmwGkxS6M
Where I lose https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq_wswDRvJU
I'm gonna link 2 sets between me and Akashic here. One with him winning, and one with me winning. I'd wager we play the matchup more than anyone else, and even though he may not be on Some's level I'm most definitely on Shuton's so it is a different take on the matchup at top level. I think it can be played a few different ways, I feel mine and Akashic's is on the more aggressive end as we both try to match each other's speed.
Here's the set where I win https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIBmwGkxS6M
Where I lose https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq_wswDRvJU
I will mention that Some and Shuton have already played before and Shuton lost then too.
bc1910
Smash Lord
Results don't point to Greninja losing to Olimar, slightly or otherwise. They point in the opposite direction, to be honest. I think your writeup is good but the conclusion of Greninja losing slightly doesn't work with the current result spread.
I would put this as even for now.
I would put this as even for now.
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If someone plays a matchup wrong that doesn't mean they lose it. I'm already critical when watching Olimar players since most times "losing matchups" are just played wrong. As for results which are you referring to? I don't feel Shuton plays the MU right if that's the one you're referring to. There's also not a ton of top Greninja and Olimar running around so that doesn't help things.
bc1910
Smash Lord
Who's to say there aren't things Some could be doing better too? For example not being so predictable with ledgesnap recoveries (even though Shuton may not be abusing them to the fullest) when Hydro Pumping over characters with average mobility like Olimar is a good strategy. I'd like to see him use that a little more.
Plus if you're saying that you're as good as Shuton but your playing partner isn't as good as Some, yet he still beats you a fair amount, that doesn't support your argument.
I'm generally skeptical when someone thinks they're playing the MU "right" when other results all point in a different direction. Don't take that the wrong way of course - your input is still very much appreciated.
Plus if you're saying that you're as good as Shuton but your playing partner isn't as good as Some, yet he still beats you a fair amount, that doesn't support your argument.
I'm generally skeptical when someone thinks they're playing the MU "right" when other results all point in a different direction. Don't take that the wrong way of course - your input is still very much appreciated.
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That's true both parties could play it better. As for my partner being worse than some, he's arguably the best Greninja in FL and has been playing the Olimar MU since the game came out. I'm quite confident when I say he plays the Olimar matchup better than probably all other Greninjas.
Next Session will be and
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w00t w00t.
Lawliet626
Smash Apprentice
Shulks and the Greninjas will never agree on this MU lol
Lawliet626
Smash Apprentice
And reading myrans post, I do agree that both parties could play the MU better after watching the sets, and I also disagree because although it sounds stupid, just because youve played an MU since the beginning of time, doesnt mean you play it completely optimal.
Next Session will be and
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Rango the Mercenary
The Mercenary
Ike vs. Greninja is 60-40 in Greninja's favor. If you're using Ike, avoid Town and City and Final Destination. You absolutely need platforms to recover to. Anytime you have a flat platform is a free grab from Greninja's insane grab range, or a fully charged Water Shuriken, which leads into a grab when blocked.
Greninja has less range than Ike, but mostly faster attacks. He can stuff our attacks with his own, and his superior air and ground speed give him that advantage. It's very hard to keep him off of you, and even moreso due to pressure from Water Shuriken and RAR Bair.
I've gone up against both Venia and Akashic and have found, firsthand, how rough this matchup is. In neutral, when you're not being pelted by Water Shuriken and your approach isn't being forced, he's in your face with aerials. His Utilt hits behind him, so it's hard to get a solid punish, even behind the character. Also, Hydro Pump flat-out gimps Aether, if you weren't keeping score.
If you're going to fight Greninja as Ike, here's what I recommend.
Stages:
Strike Town & City
Ban Final Destination
Pick Battlefield
Pick Lylat Cruise
Pick Dream Land
Punishes:
If Greninja uses DTilt, block and punish with your own. At late percents, he can, and will, confirm DTilt into Fair for a kill.
If Greninja overcharges Water Shuriken, jump in, land, and punish with a grab. He may be expecting an aerial.
If Greninja is afar from you, prepare to counter Shadow Sneak with Counter. This is a potential kill. If he goes below the ledge area, wait for Hydro Pump. Even an uncharged Eruption is good damage. Otherwise, prepare ledge trump Bair or a ledge punish option, such as Nair, retreating Nair, or holding your ground and punishing with a grab.
If Greninja uses Dair and misses, and your back is turned, Quick Draw immediately. This will reset neutral.
Do not:
Force a landing on the ground against Greninja. This is free grab damage. At kill percents, he can finish you with USmash, which has a massive hitbox going upwards. Go for the ledge or the nearest platform.
Attempt Aether as a recovery, except as a last resort. Quick Draw is the better option here. Hydro Pump is a free gimp.
Repeatedly challenge him in footsies wars. Due to speed, RAR Bair will stuff your own. Greninja will flat-out disrespect your range due to his speed. Out-space him as best as you can, from as afar as you can. If he's attempting repeated Nairs, max-range Bair may be useful. Retreating with Nair, you may also hit him from afar with the tail end of the attack.
Hold shield when Water Shuriken is being charged. This leads into dash grab, and you can't escape it, and this may lead into a kill confirm. If you're in a forced, pressure situation, you're simply better taking the Water Shuriken, unless you're in kill percent. If nothing else, retreat with Quick Draw if you're not at the ledge.
Stay grounded and play a superior neutral. Utilize your powershields against Fair, dash attack, and Nair for free grab punishes. Punish him as hard as you can at the ledge. Keep in mind he's always low, so Bair and Fair aren't good options.
Greninja has less range than Ike, but mostly faster attacks. He can stuff our attacks with his own, and his superior air and ground speed give him that advantage. It's very hard to keep him off of you, and even moreso due to pressure from Water Shuriken and RAR Bair.
I've gone up against both Venia and Akashic and have found, firsthand, how rough this matchup is. In neutral, when you're not being pelted by Water Shuriken and your approach isn't being forced, he's in your face with aerials. His Utilt hits behind him, so it's hard to get a solid punish, even behind the character. Also, Hydro Pump flat-out gimps Aether, if you weren't keeping score.
If you're going to fight Greninja as Ike, here's what I recommend.
Stages:
Strike Town & City
Ban Final Destination
Pick Battlefield
Pick Lylat Cruise
Pick Dream Land
Punishes:
If Greninja uses DTilt, block and punish with your own. At late percents, he can, and will, confirm DTilt into Fair for a kill.
If Greninja overcharges Water Shuriken, jump in, land, and punish with a grab. He may be expecting an aerial.
If Greninja is afar from you, prepare to counter Shadow Sneak with Counter. This is a potential kill. If he goes below the ledge area, wait for Hydro Pump. Even an uncharged Eruption is good damage. Otherwise, prepare ledge trump Bair or a ledge punish option, such as Nair, retreating Nair, or holding your ground and punishing with a grab.
If Greninja uses Dair and misses, and your back is turned, Quick Draw immediately. This will reset neutral.
Do not:
Force a landing on the ground against Greninja. This is free grab damage. At kill percents, he can finish you with USmash, which has a massive hitbox going upwards. Go for the ledge or the nearest platform.
Attempt Aether as a recovery, except as a last resort. Quick Draw is the better option here. Hydro Pump is a free gimp.
Repeatedly challenge him in footsies wars. Due to speed, RAR Bair will stuff your own. Greninja will flat-out disrespect your range due to his speed. Out-space him as best as you can, from as afar as you can. If he's attempting repeated Nairs, max-range Bair may be useful. Retreating with Nair, you may also hit him from afar with the tail end of the attack.
Hold shield when Water Shuriken is being charged. This leads into dash grab, and you can't escape it, and this may lead into a kill confirm. If you're in a forced, pressure situation, you're simply better taking the Water Shuriken, unless you're in kill percent. If nothing else, retreat with Quick Draw if you're not at the ledge.
Stay grounded and play a superior neutral. Utilize your powershields against Fair, dash attack, and Nair for free grab punishes. Punish him as hard as you can at the ledge. Keep in mind he's always low, so Bair and Fair aren't good options.
...I actually use Greninja, tough I have been using the FE fighters as secondaries in general, mostly Corrin who is really good at covering the fighters with reliable enough aproach options to break through Water Shuriken. I guess the perfect frame-inputs of the CPU (I have never seen a player-controlled Ike) prevented me from noticing how weak Ike is to the shurikens and multi-hit attacks. Thanks for the advice anyway! It will be very useful when using either caracther.
And, simply jumping over the charged Shuriken won't work? I know, Greninja's Up Smash can murder you even at low percents if you get predictable, but when the alternative is either a kill throw/kill setup or a potentially lethal fully charged Shuriken...
EDIT: forget that, you already said it.
By the way, is it me or Greninja's (and many new fighter's) main weak point is that Sakurai balanced them around Final Destination alone? because every single Greninja matchup has a comment on how much his chances improve in stages as flat as possible.
And, simply jumping over the charged Shuriken won't work? I know, Greninja's Up Smash can murder you even at low percents if you get predictable, but when the alternative is either a kill throw/kill setup or a potentially lethal fully charged Shuriken...
EDIT: forget that, you already said it.
By the way, is it me or Greninja's (and many new fighter's) main weak point is that Sakurai balanced them around Final Destination alone? because every single Greninja matchup has a comment on how much his chances improve in stages as flat as possible.
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Rango the Mercenary
The Mercenary
The meta is based heavily on how well you can catch and punish your opponent's landings.
I main greninja, and my twin main ike. I will say right now that the mu is 60-40 greninja. first, greninja's water gimps make ike's up B incredibly risky, and quickdraw can fly ike across and over the stage or convert into an Usmash. Greninja is much faster, has a much better recovery mu wise, and has much better frame data than ike. Ike has trouble landing against greninja, and ike's slow speed and lack of projectile makes it easy for greninja to run away and spam shurikens at ike while he tries to get in. However, ike's amazing power, damage, and huge disjointed hitboxes can stuff out greninja if he gets greedy or spaces anything incorrectly. Ike wins all trades, and both characters have a similar kill throw due to the weight difference. If Ike can get in and bait mistakes out of the greninja from close mid-range, he can heavily punish greninja and kill off grabs mainly with his Uthrow 50/50 and dthrow as a crutch. He can also edgeguard greninja's Up B rather well due to its lack of hitbox and ike's huge fair and quick bair. However, going offstage against a greninja can cost ike dearly at any % if he misses and has to use his up B, since greninja will be over him and can freely use hydro pump to gimp ike and snap the ledge. This has happened so many times that I strongly advise ikes to respect greninja offstage unless they are confident they can hit him. If greninja plays lame and runs away, ike can't do much about it except on maybe lylat, which greninja hates since shurikens are screwed up there. Furthermore, if greninja does decide to go in, his frame data allows him to pressure ike rather well. It would still be a losing mu without greninja's projectile, but up close ike has more of a chance.
Just so you know, I've been pretty busy with exams, so I haven't gotten a chance to update this thread. Since I don't want to start a week a day late, I'll just make this an off-week for the students and pick up with session 17 next week. I'll let you guys pick which match up we analyze next.
JTaylor
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2016
- Messages
- 2
What about a week on Link and Toon Link? Their play-styles are very similar (although Toon Link's is more centered around speeding around the stage) and it would help to analyze Greninja's options against their projectiles and the pressure they apply with them.
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Lawliet626
Smash Apprentice
I would like Rosalina, DDD or G&W, I actually know these MU pretty well and would like to give some tips if possible