Official Master's Dojo - Greninja Matchup Thread

[FullMoon]

Dunno if you guys have had any high level Grens vs high level Bayos in the US, but just a week back we had our major in Australia and Waveguider's Greninja had at least a game or two vs Ghost's Bayo so if you're interested I'll dig that up.

Venia has also played against Pink Fresh a few times, IIRC he lost at WF and won at GF and then in Smash Con I think he lost 2-1? Either way they're kinda equal in sets right now.

Personally I think both MUs are even but I don't have much to say about either.

 

[Illusion.]

This is a MU I've played a lot and I think it's 50:50. I think it's important to note that high and top-level Bayonettas (Pink Fresh, Saj, AeroLink, and Captain Zack) all believe this MU is even. She's a scary character due to her powerful combos and our relatively poor disadvantaged state. If you get hit by one of her combo-starters, it's going to hurt. Keep in mind that there are some moves that you can Shadow Sneak out of it, but don't do it too much because they can bait it out and punish it. She's a little tricky to edgeguard due to her plethora of mixups, so don't be upset if you drop an edgeguard opportunity. Be aware of Witch Twist OoS because it's a really fast move that is one of her main combo-starters, and also be aware of Heel Slide (I think that's what it's called) as it can be used as a burst option.

If you want to be successful in this MU, I'd suggest playing a bait-and-punish playstyle while also using your superior mobility to keep her guessing what you will do next. It's important to note that her disadvantage state is basically nonexistent, so this MU is basically raw neutral. Use Shurikens and F-air to apply safe pressure,

Spoiler: Stages

Stage(s) to pick:
Duck Hunt- a great stage for us to play defensive that gives us plenty of room to avoid her setups
Final Destination- no platforms for her to extend combos and makes Shuriken work better, pick an Omega with walls to give you another recovery option

Stage(s) to ban:
Lylat Cruise- platforms help her extend combos, tilting helps Bullet Climax while hindering Shuriken

Spoiler: MU example

Venia vs. Pink Fresh

On paper, I think we win this MU, but in practice, that's not the case. S1 consistently beats iStudying and Awestin consistently beats Gibus. On the other hand, we have DarkAura beating Luffy and me beating Asa and Mikeffect. I'm gonna have to mark this as 50:50. He has powerful grab combos and they work well on us due to being a fast-faller. A lot of his aerials either auto-cancel or have little endlag so it's important to watch out for since they use them as bait. In general, he is just a really strong character (especially that B-throw) as a lot of his moves do a lot of damage coupled with him having good frame data; he beats up close having those characteristics. Watch yourself offstage as they tend to use PK Thunder to edgeguard.

Although he's really strong, he has the same issue as where he can struggle to get in due to his mobility, but if he gets in you will pay for it. You want to be playing campy/defensive by using a lot of Shurikens and F-air while running away to avoid having damage racked up on yourself because he can easily end your stock with a B-throw. When he gets offstage, capitalize because his recovery is easily exploitable with Hydro Pump; keep an eye on whether or not they have their double jump though.

Spoiler: Stages

Stage(s) to pick:
Duck Hunt- great stage to play defensive considering our mobility is drastically superior
Final Destination- same concept as Duck Hunt, just not as big

Stage(s) to avoid:
Smashville- the smaller horizontal blastzones means you can die from him (especially his B-throw) sooner since he tends to kill off the sides, and the platform can set up for an early death with his F-throw or a string of aerials

Spoiler: MU example

DarkAura vs. Luffy

 

[Y2Kay]

Good Job guys~

Session 6 Begins with and
​

You can still post your thoughts on the Ness MU if you want Luco

 

[Derpnaster]

Pit and Dark Pit are a surprisingly painful matchup, mostly because of their multiple jumps, good disjointed anti airs, and overall balanced concept, Their reach means we have to play things a lot more careful with our movement and the existence of their fast multi hit up smash and to a lesser degree up tilt mean we can't just autopilot jump in NAir.
That said I still give this to Greninja 55:45 as a starting point. We might be denied many of our autopilot neutral tools but we're faster with our own good disjoints and quick hits that can turn into long strings or even death if we get the right read.

Just my opinion for now: Subject to change.

 

[Y2Kay]

Just gonna mention that Earth's Pit routinely eat's up frog shinobi's for breakfast.

The only ninja that has beaten him is Some, and that was (A) a long time ago and (B) doewsn't account for the multiple times he's lost to Earth too.

Some used to think this MU was -1 as well.

Also gonna summon @Coffee™ for this discussion.

 

[Luco]

Alright, here are the vods from CS17, which happened a few weeks ago. Custom music was tops btw.

Games 1 and 2 of WFs look really messy lawl, but there's a few things we can take from them as well as the games later in that set and GFs:

Neutral is really fast going. Shurikens, especially small ones are Gren's best friend in this MU, and no amount of attempted reflects will stop Ness having to approach. That said, Nair beats out a lot of Gren's close-up tools and also wins the OoS war. Retreating Fair does put up a substantial wall, but on Ness' side retreating Bair does similar work. Wave loves to go for grabs in neutral as they're vital for getting Ness offstage, and Ness wants grabs because he has conversions and obviously kills. Instead of the usual Uthrow combo which Ness finds easy to escape from because our aerial mobility and AD are seriously busted reasons you should probably be going for Fthrow / Bthrow in order to get Ness offstage. Ness will want to do the same because...

Disadvantage. It sucks. For everyone involved in this MU. Ness getting juggled is a serious issue for us, even if Gren just chooses to sit onstage and use shurikens to abuse our landings. Gren also has less than stellar landing options I found, probably because whilst his vertical mobility is tops his horizontal mobility leaves some to be desired. Offstage is also damn hard for both characters, but is a bigger threat for Ness because Hydro Pump just kills whenever as opposed to yoyo and PKT which are generally just damage dealers until the former kills at high percents. Of course both characters have ways around this gimping method - Ness has DJ which is vitally important to save and use when it's right and Gren also has the option of moving out first with upB or going high which Wave started doing. A more adaptive Ness would have started to mix up yoyo with Uair to catch the high recoveries, but alas... I didn't think of it at the time. :< Generally though, these characters will be doing a heck ton of damage to each other in their respective advantaged states. One thing also to keep in mind is most of Greninja's setups don't work on Ness, you'll see Wave go for a lot of Dtilt --> Fsmash reads and various other stuff... Ness just has the aerial mobility to straight up Nair him for his trouble or at worst fade away from it. I believe Gren can also get out of some of our combos with SS stuff.

Stages for Gren, DH and FD were mentioned and I know I was banning FD like hell during my set with Wave after losing so badly to him at one point there. DH also sucks slightly for us, Ness has a 6 frame-vulnerable airdodge but about 3 of those frames have all of us except for I think our arm inside the Z-axis, meaning we're really hard to hit in that time and effectively get a 3-frame vulnerable AD instead. Duck Hunt cuts the Z-axis out so we're a lot more vulnerable there.

A stage that I found surprisingly useful for Ness was lylat, aside from Wave SDing there Lylat's platforms allowed me to be a little safer from Dair footstool shenanigoats and also if Wave jumped from the ledge he wasn't able to punish with a Bair on my whiffed Dsmashes. That said I think it's pretty easy for Gren to hit the Usmash sweetspot there so make of it what you will. Animal Crossing stages were interesting, and I found they benefited both characters pretty well. I suspect Gren doesn't like DL/BF too much in this MU but I could be wrong, I found it a lot easier to edge-guard and also to make it back safely there.

Anywho, this match is fast-paced and highly depends on the skill and adaptive ability of both players. Wave is welcome to disagree, I feel this MU sits around the 50:50 mark as others have stated. I think it's one of the most fun MUs I can play, so I'm excited if/when I encounter wave in bracket or in friendlies again. We've played for a very long time (like 4 years) online since Brawl days and that was only our second time meeting each other in person (and I barely got a chance to talk to him at BAM) so it was an awesome experience for me.

Hope this input helps! Also Lucas Gren sucks, don't do it PK kid co-mains you're gonna have a bad time. That Undertale music's really starting to affect me.

 

[Fenny]

This is a MU I've played a lot and I think it's 50:50. I think it's important to note that high and top-level Bayonettas (Pink Fresh, Saj, AeroLink, and Captain Zack) all believe this MU is even. She's a scary character due to her powerful combos and our relatively poor disadvantaged state. If you get hit by one of her combo-starters, it's going to hurt. Keep in mind that there are some moves that you can Shadow Sneak out of it, but don't do it too much because they can bait it out and punish it. She's a little tricky to edgeguard due to her plethora of mixups, so don't be upset if you drop an edgeguard opportunity. Be aware of Witch Twist OoS because it's a really fast move that is one of her main combo-starters, and also be aware of Heel Slide (I think that's what it's called) as it can be used as a burst option.

If you want to be successful in this MU, I'd suggest playing a bait-and-punish playstyle while also using your superior mobility to keep her guessing what you will do next. It's important to note that her disadvantage state is basically nonexistent, so this MU is basically raw neutral. Use Shurikens and F-air to apply safe pressure,

Spoiler: Stages

Stage(s) to pick:
Duck Hunt- a great stage for us to play defensive that gives us plenty of room to avoid her setups
Final Destination- no platforms for her to extend combos and makes Shuriken work better, pick an Omega with walls to give you another recovery option

Stage(s) to ban:
Lylat Cruise- platforms help her extend combos, tilting helps Bullet Climax while hindering Shuriken

Spoiler: MU example

Venia vs. Pink Fresh

This, basically. As for choosing Omega stages, remember that Bayo has an amazing wall cling herself, so keeping her offstage becomes damn near impossible and with and she can hang around for tons of time.

 

[Illusion.]

I have very little experience with so I won't be talking about him.





Honestly, I think this MU is still trash. It's not as bad as pre-patch (where I would argue 35:65), but it's still not pleasant. I'd argue this MU is 40:60. This is one of those MUs that can drastically change depending on the level of play it's taking place (at mid-level, I can see this MU being 45:55, or even 50:50). At high/top-level play, mains can push their advantage state for the most optimal punishes and combos, and consistently hit her kill confirms; combine that with our bad disadvantage state and I think you can see where I'm going with this. Her recovery is still extremely hard to intercept, and her offstage game in general is better than ours. She has no problem attempting to edgeguard us since we lack a hitbox on our recovery and lack fast aerials that hit in front of us. Her frame data is just straight-up better than ours by a lot. As I mentioned earlier, but am going to mention again because it's important, she is very, very good at abusing our disadvantage state. In fact, she's possibly the best character at abusing our disadvantage state due to her plethora of mixups and combos. Her mobility is only slightly worse on both the ground and air, so she will not have trouble catch up to us if we try to play lame.

Although she can combo us until extremely high percents, we can rack up damage since we do more damage per hit; landing the combo-starter is the hard part since her frame data is plain godlike and she has relatively low endlag overall. If you do luckily happen to catch her on something unsafe, you need to push your advantage as hard as you possibly can. She's a fasfaller so she gets combo'd easily; she's really light so it's common to kill her early off a crucial error due to rage. Partially charged Shuriken outranges needles, but don't try to sit back with Shuriken very much because it means you are in Bouncing Fish range.

Spoiler: Stages

Stage(s) to pick:
Battlefield- not really a good stage for us, but helps us stay alive longer to abuse rage since it'll take longer for her to kill you
Dreamland 64- double-edge sword, but the platforms help set up for the Uthrow kill setup I linked in the discussion

Stage(s) to ban:
Smashville- smaller blastzones means she can kill us more easily, platform can set up for early deaths due to her infamous F-air strings

 

[Y2Kay]

Discussion this week was not good, so I'm gonna leave some input for my for my former main / secondary.

Do not let the "honest character" shtick fool you, Pit's anti air attacks are effective and powerful, and the start up on his are very low, just behind the Mario Bros, in fact.

Similar to Diddy Kong and Mario, if you choose to use Nuetral Air, you better make sure it can land, because Pit has multiple ways to punish. Also, you should not be getting trapped on your landings. Hydro pump landings are near impossible for him to punish with his average run speed. Pit's ground game is much more easier to fight than in the air. His tilts are not as good as ours. His main grab moves are dash attack and dash grab, which both can be punished with retreating Forward Air. He can punish our grab attempts to with Down smash so be on the look out for that move too (It comes out frame 5 in front of him!). Both of us have hard time edge guarding, but Pit needs this for killing more than we do. Our huge mobility advantage let's us weave around arrows and close long gaps in the blink of an eye. Just like with Mario, you can pester him some with shurikens but you cannot charge it unless he commits to a bad upperdash arm.

It's another match up where you have to develop a strong mix up and punish game. Openings can be very hard to spot or create, so your going to need some experience to fight a competent Pit that knows the match up.

I'll label as a 50:50 for now.

Session 7 begins with and ​

 

[Y2Kay]

I'll go ahead and extend the deadline till friday but I'm pretty suprised that we didn't get a single post in here the whole week.

 

[free33]

I'll add my scrubby two cents on MK. Meta knight is not that fast, and although he has many jumps, he still has no projectile and that stick he calls a sword does give some range, but not enough to be anything but an up close, melee character. The main moves to watch out for are dash attack, dash grab, and uair. Obviously in the neutral it is pretty easy to run away from MK and spam shurikens, but when he's up close, our superior mobility and aerial range is key. Spaced/retreating Fair should be sufficient to catch many of the dash attacks they love to throw out. And due to Grenina's light weight and Shadow sneak, Greninja has the best tools out of any character to get out of Meta Knight's main kill setup --Uairs to up B. We can SS out of Uair up to 38%, so his 0-death setups straight up will not work against a knowledgable greninja. Also, we can SS out of the first hit of shuttle loop as long as it's not sweetspotted. Although we may take some good damage from the combos, our tools to get out of them, even with the bair jablock, are some of the best in the game. Along with his lack of spike or jank options aside from Uair, meta knight should pretty much never get early kills on greninja.
Furthermore, because of shurikens and mobility, meta knight will literally always be approaching us. However, this is not all meta knight has. Greninja must be careful not to land unsafely in front of meta knight, as he has many close up kill setups, such as Dtilt to dimensional cape and raw up b oos. But overall if you cross him up or space him well enough, he should have to rely on mixups or hard reads to kill you (like dimensional cape as you throw a shuriken, or his surprisingly good upsmash.) Offstage, he can edgeguard us fairly well with bair, dair, and nair due to our lack of hitbox, but in all likelihood his edgeguarding should not kill us because of our ability to mix up hydro pump angles and SS and the fact that he just doesn't have any or powerful semispike moves.As long as we are ready to tech stage spikes, recovering should not be too much of a problem. Against Meta knight's options, Greninja must read which option MK will use- Side B, Down B, or Up B. We can Hydro pump up B and side B fairly easily, and MK's low horizontal air mobility afterwards makes it a pretty good option to get the kill. maybe one follow up will be necessary. Dimensional cape can be 2-framed by bair, which MK can tech.

Landing should not be a problem for greninja either. MK's Uairs are dangerous, but our ability to get out of uairs and up B is a lot better than other characters'. Our ability to just hydro pump somewhere else on stage, landing nair, etc. make our landing options good against him. However, when he is landing, he can dimensional cape to the ground or to a platform, and his many jumps help, but if MK decides to be aggressive, Greninja's Usmash stuffs dair, nair, etc. and Utilt stuff out his aerials well enough due to invincibility.

As long as Greninja plays defensively with lots of Fair and good spacing, MK should have to rely on too many mixups and reads for this to be even. Greninja's projectile and superior mobility give Greninja the advantage in the medium and long range, while his escape options severely limit MK's reward up close (where greninja doesn't do too bad himself). Overall I would label this 55-45 Greninja's favor.

 

[Amadeus9]

MK covers greninja's landing options extremely well to the point of it being the deciding factor of the MU imo. It can be really hard for Greninja to return to a neutral state versus metaknight just because his dash speed combined with how good usmash is, is very hard for froggy to deal with. It kills you pretty darn early. SSHC is a crutch in this mu and using it against an mk that knows the matchup well will get you punished harder than the original punish in most cases. It's main use is to escape shuttle loop when it doesn't tumble, but i would need to specifically lab those percents when it doesn't (including interaction with shuttle loop's 2 hitboxes that seemingly have a mind of their own) to know when that actually is a factor... basically just mash side b after the first hit of shuttle loop if you can, sometimes you will escape and kill mk with shadow sneak. Other than that it's not that good in the mu TBH. Well you can also use it to reduce nado's damage if you mash it but thats a very small niche usage lol. Neutral isnt THAT bad for MK, shurikens can be annoying but thats pretty much all they are, a retreating sh fair from Greninja is a good bait option but no good MK will fall for that.

I think, realistically, the matchup is slightly metaknight favored, or even. **** mu numbers out of 100 tho, they are cancer.

tl;dr: mk's usmash is good, yo.

 

[FullMoon]

I will say MK mains seem to go back and forth on this MU a lot lol

First it's a slight advantage for Greninja because SSHC then maybe it's even because reasons then suddenly Greninja is one of his hardest MUs then all of sudden it's MK's favor.

I mean, I know MUs can change with time and all but sweet Jesus lol

 

[Y2Kay]

MK covers greninja's landing options extremely well to the point of it being the deciding factor of the MU imo. It can be really hard for Greninja to return to a neutral state versus metaknight just because his dash speed combined with how good usmash is, is very hard for froggy to deal with. It kills you pretty darn early.

I wonder if you took into account hydro pump landings when you made this statement. I am pretty confident that MK can't up smash us for mixing up our landings like that.

 

[Y2Kay]

Notes on the Corrin MU

• She's not good at closing horizontal space quickly, but if you do something punishable or aren't paying attention, she can spear you
• Ledge coverage is insane, mix up your ledge get up options. Pay attention to how she angles her forward smash, and don't jump into those charging hitboxes
• Greninja's jab is faster than all her grounded moves, so stuff her with it if she gets too close
• Don't run or roll into chomp . . .
• Up air and Counter Surge come out the same frame. If you call out the counter, you can use shadow sneak instead.
• Whiff punish her aerials with Forward Air
• Her Aerials aren't as safe as they look, punish them with Jab OOS when you can
• If she pins near your shield, don't be afraid to hold it

pretty even steven if you ask me.

Next Session Begins with and
​

 

[BigHairyFart]

A follow-up on the Corrin MU is that he is especially susceptible to Hydro Pump gimps since his air mobility isn't that great. The biggest defining aspect of this MU is whether or not Corrin's opponent can punish Lunge Kick away. We can almost always run after Corrin and get a dash grab off, which can lead to big damage for us. We can also SS out of rapid jab and F-Smash charge. I would label this 55:45 our favor, not because we have a lot going for us, but because what we do have goes a long way.

 

[Ludiloco]

I don't have much mu specific input on Wario despite playing the character a decent amount. He's gonna have some troubles approaching (disjoints + projectiles expose his weakest area as a character), and since our oos game is weak he shouldn't be catching you in shield with bite. Wario's matchups are actually pretty straight forward anyway. He tends to lose slightly or go even with most of the cast, but waft is the wild card that's going to determine if he wins or loses 60% of the time.

If you know what to look out for as far as waft setups (late hit nair, up air, and cancelled down air his best setups) you should be ok on stage, it's just avoiding it offstage that can be problematic. Weak fair offstage is pretty easy to hit and can lead into waft, and since we're unprotected with our recovery it's much less risky for Wario to attempt to hit us with it while we have to hydro pump. If he sets up the bike at the ledge it's probably best to bypass the ledge and head for a platform or any other safe ground you can reach, unless you can get around him with a ledge option before he's able to pick it up and toss it. That's designed to catch ledge options. High recovery will also bypass him falling off the ledge with the bike to fart on it.

Basically, mix up your recovery depending on what Wario is doing and what charge of waft he has (you can figure this out by the timer, full waft takes ~1:50 to charge and half I believe is ~1:00) and run away from his landing aerials onstage at waft kill % and you shouldn't be dying. Like I said, though, it's super tough to put a number on a Wario matchup just because it's hard to quantify the impact waft will have on it. I'd say this one's 55:45 our favor on paper assuming Greninja is able to run away from waft setups, but the great wild card makes it feel a little more 50:50.

Ryu is a matchup I'm pretty well versed in at this point. In my opinion, either the Ryu or Luigi matchup is our campiest. We cannot whatsoever afford to go toe-to-toe in cqc with Ryu, he will combo us to 50% and kill us at 70% with relative ease. His up tilt strings can take us for long painful rides, and his aerials will beat out anti air attempts or unsafe challenges with their large disjointed hitboxes. The nice part about the matchup is that hadouken and its fire counterpart are both pretty mediocre projectiles, so shuriken is going to make Ryu come to you 9 times out of 10. This means we can use our speed to work around Ryu's approach options, which are actually pretty average if you know how to get around them. We can space fair around his aerial approaches, just be mindful to respect the range of his f-air. Our pivot grab is also pretty effective in this scenario, it just kind of depends on the spacing what you should go for.

Ryu's biggest weaknesses are being camped like crazy, small and fast opponents, and though it's often over exaggerated it definitely helps to have multi hit moves. Greninja has all of these, you just have to play the matchup the right way. You need to be keeping Ryu out of your face at all times and not ever overextending your grounded follow-ups. Take your chip damage until you can land a grab and throw him up in the air. Then you need to go nuts and take all the damage you can get before he resets neutral. You should be able to get at least a couple up airs, and if he gets too comfy landing with focus you can punish it with a few things: Up air, up smash, or run away and pivot charge a shuriken (or grab it if he whiffs/you're feeling dangerous). Landing with focus is also what gets Ryu killed in the matchup, because up smash is a pretty safe option to beat it and kills him earlier than anything else.

Shadow sneak can be useful on up tilt strings, but only if you can escape safely to a platform or know when the Ryu is going to try to combo it into a shoryuken. If you manage to get out you should only get hit with the sour spot of the shoryu which doesn't kill til pretty late. If you don't, you'll probably just start eating more up tilts or worst case scenario get an f smash to the face. So, shadow sneak is helpful but you have to be smart.

Hydro pump is good vs Shoryuken, especially since his fist clips above the ledge most of the time and can be hit with proper timing and aim. If he has to tatsumaki, bair is a pretty safe bet to keep knocking him out there. If you can't gimp him, you can at least take some great damage before he makes it back. On the flipside, Ryu doesn't have many safe bets vs our recovery but tatsumaki ledge trump can cover you pretty effectively if you get predictable. Just be ready to buffer an input or go around Ryu, as he's a little too slow to punish high Hydro Pump unless he reads it preemptively.

Overall I think this matchup is incredibly annoying for Ryu, but the payoff he gets when he gets in is amazing enough to make it almost trivial. I think this mu is even right down the middle.

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

: The only experience I have vs 's are from fighting against IStudying and other notable Greninja players in Europe, and I can agree this MU feels like a 50:50 for both of them.

Greninja's projectile game is not THAT big of a deal for Wario thanks to his option to stay in the air or cover it with the bike, BUT it's still annoying for a character who isn't that good with approaching in general. If you see Wario's try to counter the shurikens with the Bike, I'd recommend not charging the Shuriken if you're sure that Wario hasn't time to jump off or go for the SH shurikens instead.

Greninja can combo Wario well, but sometimes Wario's air mobility can save him from the biggest footstool or other strings Greninja's can get.

Wario can combo/killsetup Greninja much easier like many fastfallers. Thanks to his falling speed, Wario is enable to have a better potential to Waft-Setup Greninja at even higher % than they normally would. Although unlike the more floaty characters, some of Wario's moves like D-tilt isn't really safe vs Greninja at Low / Mid %, because Greninja can easily counter it with his fastest punish options like Jab or maybe even D-tilt.

Keep in mind that Chomp is crazy good if the Greninja is more focused on playing more aggressively than playing defensively. If the Greninja's are more playing defensively, then they should be aware that Wario can camp as well if they want too for charging their Waft.

Both need to play more patient and have to focus on not screwing anything up.

50:50

 

[BigHairyFart]

Small note is that our dash attack beats bike easily.

 

[Amadeus9]

I wonder if you took into account hydro pump landings when you made this statement. I am pretty confident that MK can't up smash us for mixing up our landings like that.

I discussed this mu pretty extensively with illusion on the MK discord like 7 months ago lol. wish i had access to the archives

 

[Derpnaster]

After some long discussion I'm here to offer some contrary opinions, and here it is.
Greninja takes this matchup 60:40.
Reasoning behind this radical opinion is as follows.
Wario only has ONE way of guaranteeing a stock and a game, and that is Waft. AKA a gimmick that happens roughly once every two minutes. Beyond that he lacks range, damage, and knockback. Sure bike and up specail are good and Wario is fast for a heavy, but he get's out ranged by Greninja on almost all his moves, he gets beat hard in the mobility department to the point where keeping up and even approaching Greninja can be a near impossibility. Bite is not safe at all and get's beaten by unchanged shuriken, and above all Greninja can just kill better and faster. Throw on our grab game being very good and our recovery being both more unpredictable and less susceptible it becomes clear Greninja is just a better character in this matchup.

Granted for his part Wario is survivable and can be annoying if you don't expect it but just because you have a trump card means nothing if the target you have to hit can just walk, not run guys walk circles around you all while having keeping shield at one frame deployment.

Once more, just my opinion, take it as you will.

 

[Y2Kay]

Good job everyone, now for our next round . . .

Next Session Will Be and
​

 

[BigHairyFart]

Shuriken beats Paralyzer and we can get out of Boost Kick every single time. Those alone make this either 55:45 or 60:40 for us. Both characters get a lot off of grabs, but ours is safer and easier to land, and we have a kill throw.

 

[Ludiloco]

ZSS Greninja is pretty even in my opinion. It's a frustrating mu for ZSS if the player isn't aware of the Greninja mu or uses boost kick to kill a lot.

The threat of being roofed by just the multi hits of the boost kick is still there on the platform stages, and we can't ban both of them. Back air is super strong for her, good for spacing, and excellent at beating our recovery. That'll kill us early or force us to block which is our worst scenario. Also, ledge trump bair is kinda free (if you don't buffer) for ZSS in this matchup, just since our recovery doesn't threaten her trump attempt with a hitbox. Flip kick can punish you hard and kill early if you commit to charging a shuriken, even just slightly can be too long.

Overall I think Greninja has safer damage racking and a good run away game here, but at the same time ZSS is so good at approaching and gets so much off one combo starter it almost doesn't matter unless you play super patient the whole game. Her shield pressure is also super safe and her aerials have almost no lag.

Being able to get out of boost kick is sweet and definitely has an impact on the matchup, but I don't think that nullifies enough of ZSS's great options to say it's super in our favor because of it.

50:50 matchup or 55:45 Greninja at worst for ZSS.

 

[Y2Kay]

Ledge trump bair isn't free for ZSS, shadow sneak can kill her for attempting it. She can wait out the shadow sneak, but at that point it's a 50:50

 

[Y2Kay]

Next Session Will be and ​

 

[divade]

 main. Hey I'll stalk this a little and comment what I can. Ive fought a real good in Louisville a couple of times maybe I'll be helpful.

 

[Y2Kay]

I'm extending the date to about Halloween. Come speak you guys!

 

[BigHairyFart]

The only thing I know about Yoshi is that they like to approach in the air, so running in with an Up Smash is really effective.

 

[free33]

Yoshi loves to be in the air, jump, and use that egg. we get a ton of free af Usmashes. plus his head is huge making for easy footstool combos. We cant really gimp him with hydro pump, which sucks, but we outspeed him and outmobility him. yoshi loves to use moves like dair and fair on shield, but honestly, crawling around under him is a great place for us to be, despite being able run a way from him pretty well. Utilt and Usmash will stuff a lot of his aerial approaches, and running under him is a great idea. The one thing we do not want to do is get stuck in shield. He can easily destroy players holding shield with down b and with his command grab. Use greninja's mobility to great advantage. However, yoshi can be quite scary strong, and has surprising frame data. What stops him from capitalizing with it on us is his lack of speed. You will want to play patiently, more bait style, force the yoshi make a move. Overall I would give the mu a 55-45 in greninja's favor.

 

[Y2Kay]

Next Session Will Begin With and /
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[free33]

I'll give my opinion on DK. DK is probably the biggest combo food in the game. Large, large head to footstool on, very heavy, etc. This is just what greninja needs to combo and juggle the crap out of him. Greninja has superior frame data and combos, especially on DK, and Greninja can run away and throw shurikens in the neutral. However, DK can outrange a grounded greninja very easily with his grab, jab and ftilt. If he grabs us, he only needs 3 or 4 grabs to end us. His large hitboxes and decent frame data on moves like bair, uair, nair, etc. give him the ability ot stuff out greninja if greninja doesn't space himself correctly. A big hole in DK's play is that he really can't do much about greninja's spaced Fair on his shield. As long as greninja plays patiently and spaces correctly, he can limit DK's chances to rack up the damage necessary for a kill. Offstage, DK can put a big hitbox in front of greninja's lack of a hitbox on his up b, but greninja does have ways of mixing up his recovery. although DK's up B can B vulnerable, it is fairly difficult to challenge and cannot be affected by hydro pump. DK is vulnerable from above, but greninja's dair is very, very risky. I would put the mu at 55-45 in favor of greninja. Almost at 60-40, but not quite. Although greninja can control the pacing and range of the match, he only needs to slip up a few times in how he plays the neutral in order for dk to capitalize and punish greninja hard for it with greninja's fast fall speed and light weight.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I'll likely expand on this later down the line, but seeing as I am short for time, I'll keep it short and sweet for now.

I feel /have a minor disadvantage to , but I don't think it's set in stone (as in I could see it even, for example, but not right now). Greninja being fast can make KO'ing him a trouble for them both (luckily Marth has clutch tippers, but sourspots are still a thing, and Lucina can't really safely KO him at all). However, they both have the tools to trap Greninja at the ledge, and in general combo him fairly well (but don't use Dancing Blade Down 4, Shadow Sneak is a thing).

A good thing about Marth and Lucina, is that they aren't utter combo food for Greninja either, which is a big bonus when playing a character that thrives off of combos and footstools etc.

Like I say, I'll expand later on, but for now I would say 45:55(potential for even MU).

 

[bc1910]

I would put the DK MU reasonably strongly in favour of Greninja. It's more within 6:4 territory than 55:45.

It plays out a little like the Sheik MU for DK (which is evenish/slightly in her favour), only Greninja is arguably better at keeping him out and has more meat on his bones to withstand the Ding Dong at lower percents. Greninja's ledge trapping is not as good as Sheik's, but with DK's ledge options being so horrible it doesn't need to be. Dsmash can snipe DK's recovery pretty easily as well, 2-frame or not.

I used to think Greninja beat Marcina handily but after the buffs I don't know any more. Both of them can kill him pretty consistently through edgeguarding. He slightly wins in neutral. For now I'd say he's even against both.

 

[Derpnaster]

Lucina actually wins the matchup, Marth needs his tipper to kill early and consistently. Lucina does not which means Greninja's mobility means less overall and even less on the approach because we have to worry more about eating a potently stock ending punish if we mess up. Marth I'd say is in Geninja's favor, for the same reason marth loses to Sheik, better mobility means we can disrupt the really early options and survive for a long time which only helps us rack up damage in neutral and kill with a setup or combo.

 

[Big O]

DK vs Greninja is probably evenish. Maybe a slight advantage for Greninja, but it isn't really solidly in anyone's favor imo.

I see some mention of of it being similar to DK vs Sheik, but that doesn't sound right to me because Sheik's OoS options and neutral + ledge trap game is miles ahead of Greninja's. It tends to be a very volatile MU due to her inability to close stocks and DK's rage enabled comebacks, neither of which really play out in the Greninja MU.

What keeps DK vs Greninja from being a lopsided MU is Greninja's poor OoS game. Due to Greninja's OoS options being slow, DK has more wiggle room for attacking shields safely and Jab on block in particular is a lot more flexible. On most characters Jab is free to shield grabs (unless spaced), but on Greninja it is a mixup. Jab 2 beats his shield grab and any shield drop counter attack he might try. Jab being pretty safe to just throw out makes his normally crappy CQC pretty decent and shores up a lot the usual holes in DK's game. Landing with AC Nair is also a lot safer than usual and puts Greninja in an awkward spot where DK is in his face and can grab Greninja before he can.

I haven't played against Greninja too often due to how rare he is, but Greninja doesn't really feel like a losing MU for DK.

 

[Y2Kay]

Next Session: and /

 

[JTaylor]

Hi guys! New to Smashboards and kinda new to this forum. The discussions about Greninja's matchups have been really good so far and I thought I'd add something!

I’m not too certain about the Lucario matchup, but I main both the Ninja-Frog and the Demon-Child and have faced a couple good Greninjas and Villagers, so think I’d be able to add a couple notes on the matchup. I would say that the villager-greninja matchup is a pretty even 50-50

Villager at their best can be an INCREDIBLY annoying character to fight as Greninja – which is fair, considering that they’re one of the most if not THE most zone-oriented character in the game. The BIGGEST issue you’ll find in facing a Villager is the slingshots: they’re fast and travel a pretty good distance. In my opinion, you should only play long range in certain circumstances because with their multiple slingshot pellets and Lloid Rocket zooming towards at the same time, Villager most definitely can outprojectile Greninja and his single Water Shuriken. Villager’s best is when he’s in the air and that’s where they’ll spend the majority of the neutral. They’ve got pretty fast, and often times deadly, aerial moves – all of which can seal stocks pretty well with the exception of RNG up air and dair.

However, despite all of that the reason why I see this matchup as a 50-50 is because although Villager has a powerful zoning game, one of their most fatal flaws is in their ground game. Villager is one of the slowest characters on the ground and as such, Greninja is easily able to get into their face. If you’re able to duck and weave through the barrage of projectiles Villager throws out, there’s not a lot they can do – sure they can jab, but that’s about the only safe option they have.

And speaking of not-safe options, Villager’s grab – although it has good follow ups from Down Throw and although Back Throw acts as a kill throw at high percents – is really, REALLY punishable! Why is this important? Because if Villager shields then they’ll either 1) Go for a grab (which is easily telegraphed) and odds are get punished for doing so if you react fast enough or 2) Become conditioned NOT to go for a grab, knowing that they’ll get punished if they do so, opening up an opportunity to shield pressure or grabs. That's not to say immediately go for grab once a villager shields because 1) we don't have the fastest grab ourselves and 2) there's always OoS nair to deal with, but it's just an idea to bear in mind.

In terms of recovery, I think that – correct me if I’m wrong – Hydro Pump actually can pop Villager’s balloons without causing Villager to get out of helplessness? If that’s the case, then that is an important thing to focus on as Villager is recovering. After all, although Villager can mix up their recovery by altering the direction he flies to the stage or by throwing out a Lloid Rocket beforehand, Villager has no hitbox while recovering, so Hydro Pumping their balloons is definitely an option to be considered.

Recovering as Greninja against Villager can also be difficult for more or less the same reason – no hitbox above Greninja while he’s recovering. I would think that Villager’s main edge-guarding tools would be nair, fair, bair, dair, Timber (both planting and chopping the tree down [though this would probably be more of a mixup, I guess]), and MOST IMPORTANTLY OF ALL – his Bowling Ball. There's no great way with dealing with any one of these options except to constantly mix up your recovery - ESPECIALLY when it comes to vertical recovery because getting hit by the Bowling Ball offstage at 60% is not gonna go well for you.

So, just as a recap, Villager-Greninja matchup would be a 50-50 because while Villager can get a lot of mileage off of his long range zoning against a character that does best when it can get combos going from up close, there’s not much they can to against Greninja when he gets up close and personal – and with Greninja’s speed, that’s not all that much of challenge. We both have susceptible recoveries that have pretty good range (although Villager's undeniably travels further).

In terms of what type of stage to go to pick against villager, I don’t really have a great idea, but I would suggest a smallish stage so that Villager has less room to set up projectiles and traps and so that Greninja doesn’t have to close a large gap when advancing to Villager.

 

[BigHairyFart]

All I really know about Lucario is that we can get out of AS>U-Smash every time, which is actually a huge deal. Getting the kill isn't super hard as Greninja, so we're able to mitigate his aura pretty easily, and Hydro Pump basically guarantees that he'll land onstage with hella lag.

 

[bc1910]

DK vs Greninja is probably evenish. Maybe a slight advantage for Greninja, but it isn't really solidly in anyone's favor imo.

I see some mention of of it being similar to DK vs Sheik, but that doesn't sound right to me because Sheik's OoS options and neutral + ledge trap game is miles ahead of Greninja's. It tends to be a very volatile MU due to her inability to close stocks and DK's rage enabled comebacks, neither of which really play out in the Greninja MU.

What keeps DK vs Greninja from being a lopsided MU is Greninja's poor OoS game. Due to Greninja's OoS options being slow, DK has more wiggle room for attacking shields safely and Jab on block in particular is a lot more flexible. On most characters Jab is free to shield grabs (unless spaced), but on Greninja it is a mixup. Jab 2 beats his shield grab and any shield drop counter attack he might try. Jab being pretty safe to just throw out makes his normally crappy CQC pretty decent and shores up a lot the usual holes in DK's game. Landing with AC Nair is also a lot safer than usual and puts Greninja in an awkward spot where DK is in his face and can grab Greninja before he can.

I haven't played against Greninja too often due to how rare he is, but Greninja doesn't really feel like a losing MU for DK.

I already noted that Sheik's ledge trap game is better, it just doesn't have as much of an impact in this MU because DK's ledge options are so horrible anyway. Greninja's down taunt(!) can cover every single one of DK's ledge options by itself except for ledge attack. The big shuriken is hard for such a big character to deal with too.

Sheik's neutral is not miles ahead of Greninja's after the nerfs. I don't deny hers is better, but his is very good. I'd argue the only time hers is "miles ahead" is at high percent when a single needle can put the opponent into tumble (and even then, "miles ahead" isn't really accurate).

Greninja shouldn't be allowing a character as slow as DK to get in on him very much to abuse his poor OoS. Greninja controls the pace of the match and doesn't need to engage DK in CQC, mitigating the fact that jab 1 is a 50/50 on shield. In my experience Greninja can punish AC Nair as easily as everyone else, potentially easier than some due to his good grab range.

Next Session: and /

I think both of these are even, leaning slightly toward Greninja. So, 55:45 for both.

In short, don't use the charged shuriken against Villager (pocket isn't fun) and you have a good shot at winning the camping war. Greninja's stance is low enough for slingshot to miss a lot of the time, forcing Villy to land with (highly punishable) lag if he wants to hit it consistently. Villager can absolutely ruin Greninja's recovery which keeps the comeback factor alive. His floaty nature and fast aerials make him annoying to combo. I feel Greninja does have the edge, but it's slight.

Lucario loses quite hard in neutral, but again the comeback factor is huge here. AS ledgetraps work okay on Greninja; Fair can beat them unless Lucario is at an insanely high percent, by which point you should have killed him with Uthrow OR lost the match anyway. I think Uair always trades with them, and Shadow Sneak can beat them but it's risky. Getting out of AS > Usmash is a plus. Lucario is pretty easy to combo and killing him isn't too hard for Greninja who tends to be quite good at killing anyway.