Marth's Hitboxes

[EmptySky00]

So on a character where you're supposed to try and space perfectly and land tippers, nothing is more stupid and frustrating than spacing it too well and not getting what you earned. I never knew specifically why this happened however.

So courtesy of the new debug mode, here's what I've found.

At the very least this seems unpolished and it's a little unprofessional to leave something like this so I feel like it should be addressed in some way. This happens with other moves as well, though I haven't tested to what extent.

So, yeah. Marth is channeling Obito Uchiha and ****.

 

[Deleted member]

i hate this ****

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

...

Are you kidding me

 

[FMSKenny]

Did some testing myself too, same thing.

Deadzones on utilt + ftilt and a minor one on uair as well. Utilt and fair are easily the worst and can completely miss people above or in front of you. I think this has been an issue forever though, he's always felt so janky compared to melee with **** just missing randomly.

I guess this explains it.

I'll contribute some pics if I get a chance tomorrow, but it is very easy to see with frame advance.

 

[Magus420]

The hitboxes themselves are correct, and Roy isn't within the previous frame and current frame's hitbox positions (that area is indeed filled btw, just no way to draw such a thing with debug's circle GFX). The sword trail GFX interpolating outwards more than melee is what's off there.

 

[FMSKenny]

Ahhh, so it's more a visual problem. I presume then that uptilt looking like it's completely missing around shin height is due to rogue gfx, and it shouldn't actually hit that low?

Is this an issue with fair also? It clearly passes through but doesn't connect on the tipper line at the angles roughly 30 degrees above his eye level.

If it's just visuals making his moves appear bigger, time to make some mental adjustments I guess!

 

[EmptySky00]

And this? This has cost me games before. That dead zone is enormous. And Utilt not hitting grounded opponents sometimes is ULTIMATE annoying. I wish that at least would be fixed.

Edit: So what you're saying is the area between the hitboxes is still active? So what causes this to miss? Is it GFX again? I had no idea this was a thing.

 

[Magus420]

Yea, hitboxes in melee/brawl fill the bubbles where they are currently and previously, and all of the area inbetween, forming a capsule shape. Not knowing how to reasonably draw a capsule in 3d space using assembly code, I have PM hitbox display just show the current/previous locations of the bubbles, and you can just connect the space between them visually to know where it hits.

So while hitboxes interpolate in a straight line between the positions, the sword trail interpolates a curve (rounder than melee's trails as well I think). D-air is probably worse than others with actual hit area vs sword trail because the hitboxes on that move are smaller than his other attacks (not covering the tip and interpolating a line, while trail covers tip and interpolates a curve).

 

[EmptySky00]

That's interesting. Now I know. I was wondering how that would work ingame, since the way the frames work there would in theory be a million small dead zones. At the very least could the GFX be altered to more accurately show where he's hitting? Just so that there isn't as much confusion?

 

[Magus420]

Might be possible to attach it to an invisible bone instead of the sword so it can follow the sword's location but use different rotations on each frame to reduce the amount it curves outward, but it would probably be a lot of work to do it that way.

 

[EmptySky00]

Ya that does seem like a nuisance.

 

[Deleted member]

Might be possible to attach it to an invisible bone instead of the sword so it can follow the sword's location but use different rotations on each frame to reduce the amount it curves outward, but it would probably be a lot of work to do it that way.

i suppose more importantly, is there any simplistic way to fix it in terms of game feel? having a character based on tipping that punishes you for tipping "too well" is absolutely brutal to play in such a precise game.

 

[EmptySky00]

If the visual cues were more accurate, you wouldn't be aiming for that part of the hitbox because it would be obvious that it isn't there. It's mostly just misleading visuals. If the visuals were fixed it would probably be fine.

Edit: Uptilt though. That ****.

 

[Deleted member]

take a picture of it imo

 

[EmptySky00]

It could be the little area behind the hitbox. That makes sense.

 

[Deleted member]

admittedly that looks a lot less stupid than fsmash fair and dair. maybe our use of uptilt is just legitimately poor on this one.

 

[EmptySky00]

That's what I figured initially tbh.

It's still kind of annoying how it arcs above that one area so it misses. This is completely avoidable by using it with more discretion though.

 

[ObdurateMARio]

I think the struggle with tipping is the SFX. I can't be the only one that relied heavily on Marth's sword SFX in melee... They were so good man.

But yeah these are definitely misleading. Dair looks obnoxious as sin.

 

[CyberZixx]

This explains a lot. When I mained Marth in PM I rarely went for Fsmash platform tech chases because I felt it was real finicky. I'm with @ ObdurateMARio in that I love the Melee sword sword effects (and sword trail visuals). Those and this really contribute to making marth a lot more fun in that game for me. Plus he was booty last patch, hence why I play Roy now.