NoLife
Smash Apprentice
Any good options against tether recoveries?
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Marth vs Tethers
- Thread starter NoLife
- Start date
cisyphus
Smash Ace
Hold ledge. If they try to hit you off of ledge before tethering, just use Marth's ledge regrab invincibility to avoid it, or time your ledgehog so that that isn't an issue. If they fade back ledge hop down air spike them. If they fade into stage do a ledge stand grab and reset the edgeguard until they get tricked into doing the former. The trick of course is when they know to do the edge cancel out of their up b, which I think you could still cover with down air to either double dunk or techchase.
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lain
Smash Master
Would it then be best to always go for ledge-hop dair to cover fade back, land on stage and regrab after if they went in? Timing might not line up perfectly, not sure, but it'd be nice if this were the case.
cisyphus
Smash Ace
Lain on Smashboards? What?
Lemme check the frame data.
Okay so ledge hop into fast fall takes ~25 frames based on a quick test of trying to fastfall every other frame of the ledge hop with frame advance. Down air landing lag is 12 frames, and grab is 7 frame startup, so you're looking at roughly 45 frames total, and tethers have 50 frames of cooldown. Given average reaction time is somewhere around 20 frames, it doesn't look feasible to do that, although you could probably cover their option out of the landing well with Marth anyway. It won't net you a kill outright is the problem, and if they edge cancel I'm pretty sure dair whiffs and you open yourself up to a punish.
You have enough time to react and cover either fade in or fade back otherwise (30 frames after reaction time) although I have to ammend my previous statement and say you probably can't ledge stand in that model, but instead ledgedash as it'll save ~15 frames overall. the regrab is tight but more doable than the method you're theorizing.
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That reaction time doesn't assume that you're in a position to react, and even so, it's a couple of frames off, but I suppose it's always fair to low-ball. Since you're hanging on ledge, waiting for a reel in, knowing exactly what you're going to do when they reel in, you should have more than enough time to react and do what lain is suggesting.
However, I don't do any of this. Dealing with a character like ZSS who can tether>reel>fade back>double jump/wall jump/aerial, etc, hanging on the ledge is pretty bad. Maybe against someone like Samus or Ivy. Lucas has quite a significant amount of drift and probably better options to force you off of ledge than everyone besides ZSS.
Instead I just wait for my opponent to get into position and quickly drop zone rising bair just AS they're tethering (aka, in tether start up). It covers almost every character's reel in, including super fast ones like ZSS. It takes a little getting used to, and may require a read, but beyond 50%~, it should almost always kill. It's a bit harder to do when they're closer to the height of the stage. In this case, I try to punish the ledge hop with reverse hit nair to push them far enough off stage to force another tether/recovery option.
However, I don't do any of this. Dealing with a character like ZSS who can tether>reel>fade back>double jump/wall jump/aerial, etc, hanging on the ledge is pretty bad. Maybe against someone like Samus or Ivy. Lucas has quite a significant amount of drift and probably better options to force you off of ledge than everyone besides ZSS.
Instead I just wait for my opponent to get into position and quickly drop zone rising bair just AS they're tethering (aka, in tether start up). It covers almost every character's reel in, including super fast ones like ZSS. It takes a little getting used to, and may require a read, but beyond 50%~, it should almost always kill. It's a bit harder to do when they're closer to the height of the stage. In this case, I try to punish the ledge hop with reverse hit nair to push them far enough off stage to force another tether/recovery option.
cisyphus
Smash Ace
Oh wait landing lag is 50 on tether, but the tether itself adds another ???? frames.
Yeah Lain, do that.
Yeah Lain, do that.
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Denjinpachi
Smash Journeyman
Im inclined to agree with the ledge holding idea here. if they recover with tether, they suffer from severe landing lag, and if they don't do that, the tether recovery characters (Ivy/ZSS/etc.) will be forced to try to tether again. Really easy to punish because if you are good at ledge dashing, you get any punish you can manage.
There is no etc., those are the only two strictly tether recovery characters. ZSS can jump after her tether, so if you just hold ledge, she'll reel up>drift back>jump fair/uair you off of ledge>tether and steal ledge from you. You have to force her to use her jump early.
Denjinpachi
Smash Journeyman
My bad. I didn't know that those were the only two. When I thought of tether, I was thinking of everyone that could tether. I noted those two because they have their tether command used by their up-b. but there are more than those two who have the ability. So I believe there is an "etc." but those two are the only ones that you have to worry about for a dead set one-way recovery when they are even with, or below the stage.
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Salty Sam
Smash Rookie
With me I just try to read their legde get up and punish it with either a f-smash or neutral-b. I know fairly basic, but it has paid off for me on a few occasions. Sorry I can't be more useful on the topic.