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Marth video critique thread

C.J.

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 30, 2008
Messages
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Florida
I can't imagine anyone DOESN'T know the drill by now.

If you post it, I will look at it/offer something about it (assuming nobody else has) as long as:

1) It's not wifi
2) I don't see constant fairs not being FFed for no reason.
3) You've read this thread first:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=315099
4) Seriously, READ THE ABOVE THREAD. I REALLY don't want to spend time posting things that are in that thread.

If you want advice on something specific, post what it is along with the match. Different members, other than me, here are able to help with specific things quite well and I'll point out your match to them for them specifically to look at.

Obviously anyone is welcome to critique anyone else, I assume most people here know who is likely to give good advice and who isn't.
 
D

Deleted member 189823

Guest
Hey.
Thanks for opening up this kind of thread once again. I am eager to recieve some advice, as a new Marth player:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPt2D6YWFxw

My 2-week old Marth. 8P
And by the way, if you wonder why I don't use the full DB, it was because I had trouble doing it consistently back then (I didn't know you had to press B slowly, I thought there was something wrong with my controller).

EDIT: I'm the black Marth
 
D

Deleted member 189823

Guest
Sorry about that.
I edited the post. I'm the black Marth.
 

ScareMl

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
Messages
436
Location
Northern California
I don't want to get too detailed because you're still new to Marth, but a couple pointers:


-walk more during the neutral game. Dashing around is giving up stage control
-pummel whenever you grab. refreshes moves and the extra dmg adds up.
- If you're going to attempt a Leon-like spike (:25 seconds), make sure you do it and land on the stage. spiking and putting yourself farther away from the stage creates so many bad situations for you. You shouldn't be trying it; it's not worth it.
- Dancing blade is a good punishing move. You have to learn how to do the whole thing. If you just do db1, don't always follow up with a grab, he caught on to it. Mix it up with a roll, smash, jab, tilt, etc.
- when you jump, make sure you have something to gain out of that jump (like a ff aerial, empty hop mindgame, etc.). Near the beginning, you threw a lot of short hops out and followed with d-tilt when he wasn't close to you. No need.
- i liked that retreating nair at 1:40.

hope this helps
 

reslived

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 27, 2011
Messages
106
Location
College Park, MD
Reviving this thread. Please help a nub marth trying to catch up to the pros.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX5R0o2gA-U&list=UUBCMlyRbnlVPVkPrVUE1psA

I can typically pick up on obvious mistakes, ie whiffing attacks and going off the ledge. I'm hoping for more general feedback ie stop spotdodging so much and use dtlit more (<- i'm working on those).

Also don't forget to watch Blunted_object's video, he posted like a week ago :).
 

Ayce God

RIP Nova 9
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still not sure why this thread was created, no one ever gets help.

yo scare, you need to use your kill moves more, those games dragged on and on bc you would never finish him. start punishing with tipper dsmash or db or ds instead of fair. your reaction time/speed are kinda slow, lots of times you're too busy walking and waiting they just walk up and smack you which kinda defeats the purpose of doing the whole patient thing yes? try to inticipate more and move a bit quicker. also that dk player played pretty bad in those vids. should have been easy two stock for you. start picking up and punishing that awful rolling habit he has. oh your first stock on ps1 vs the dk was pretty good. awesome stuff man.
 

ScareMl

Smash Journeyman
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Aug 1, 2011
Messages
436
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dude i beat his dk with my trash falco and other random characters, i just have trouble with marth vs dk. thanks though, i'll work on that stuff
 

Mripod128

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 13, 2010
Messages
41
Location
Calgary, AB, Canada
I'm not very confident in posting but seeing as I guess there's not much response on this thread, BUTTTTT

Anyway, I've been playing Marth off and on for the past couple years (Not competitively might I add), just recently started to actually get it into tournaments and such. I've always had a problem with playing against Snake. I have some footage from November 2012 of myself playing a Snake. I've went over this footage lots and I think I can see many of my mistakes, but I think a second or third opinion would be nice.

http://www.twitch.tv/fgccstream/b/342718241

Action starts at 0:47 and ends at 9:38

I have improved quite a bit since this tourney but unfortunately it was my only recorded gameplay of fighting a snake. Anyway I think my main problems were a lot of rolling, not playing defensive enough against Snakes Utilt, and a bad CP. I could go over a lot of other mistakes but I didn't think it was as big.

Anyway, I encourage you guys just to watch both the matches in their entirety and just give me some critisim, this is my hardest MU by far and I want to know if I should just work on using a different character against Snake or maybe I can improve my Marth for it. ROB's a ***** of a MU for me too, but that's another story.

Much thanks, real thanks.
 

C.J.

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 30, 2008
Messages
4,102
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Reslived vs Peach:

The very first thing I see is you CONSTANTLY shielding->unshielding->reshielding in a position where Peach can't hit you or apply pressure to you, but is also easily able to be ftilted if she were to attempt to get closer to you for fair (and, if you felt like committing more, you could weave with nair to press her back some/hit her if she moves forward). To expand slightly more, the very first shield, at 9 seconds in, Peach was too far away from you to hit you with anything. If she wanted to throw the turnip she would have to cancel her float and then throw the turnip. Just knowing what you're looking for would result in an easy fair to catch the turnip while swatting at her on reaction.

Even once you start using attacks such as ftilt and nair, you're still hiding in shield too much giving Peach the idea that you're scared of her options. By giving off this impression, you make any player's job a LOT easier since the risks they need to take to be able to give off implied pressure are far more minimal and results in you wasting your shield. Against Peach specifically, you want to make sure your shield is a s healthy as possible since she shieldpokes well and can pressure your shield *fairly* safely.

Watch out on your patterns following throws (just wait a little longer and react to their option) and your nairs are REALLY telegraphed actually.

When Peach is floating in the air, you don't want to jump INTO her. Jump up, or even backwards slightly, then WEAVE into her so that you have a hitbox going in front of you to dissuade her from just fairing you.

Watch your ADs.

32 seconds in, your shield is annoyingly low and able to be shieldpoked quite easily. Additionally, you're still shielding for no reason out of fear for the turnips when you have so many other options to deal with them. Keep in mind, turnips move very slowly so don't be scared of them,

For the next 20 seconds Peach hit your shield with unsafe attacks and you dropped every punish. I'm not going through them all, but you really can't afford to be doing that.

53 seconds in, you finally get out of the corner and... retreat across the stage letting Peach move freely. You HAVE to keep pressure up when you have such a huge positional advantage. There's no excuse for letting Peach have that much freedom for no reason.

Seriously, be careful with how you jump.

1:19- see 54 second comment.

You got gimped your first stock because you were too scared of the turnips. Catch them, swat them, IT them, etc. There's no reason to be afraid of them, jump, get hit, and then gimped over such an irrational fear. Turnips aren't BAD, but you're Marth. You are super mobile, are on the boards that has a super comprehensive list of options/things to do with items, and have a giant sword. Abuse these things.

You HAVE to know your punishes and what is and isn't safe on shield as well as what can and can't be grabbed.

If your nair is whiffing, don't just keep moving forward to let it whiff more. Fall back and try to land safely/get to a neutral position.

Seriously, throw follow-ups, refine them.

Learn how to land with uair. At 2:36 you had the ability to land with a beautiful uair on shield on the right-hand side of Peach which would have pushed her offstage since she was on the ledge. Instead you cornered yourself, for no reason, by nairing trying to land between the ledge and Peach. Luckily, you were able to get back onto the stage and regain field presence without taking much damage.

Go through this match, count EVERY time you tried to shieldgrab her fair. Now compare hits vs whiffs. KNOW YOUR PUNISHES

Your second stock is just a lesson in unsafe recoveries. I don't think much more needs to be said about it.

2:57 You held your shield for about 2 solid seconds. Don't let her pressure you that much. You have the better options- use them.

Great dsmash kill.

If you have an item in your hand, and you roll, EVERYONE knows that a GT is about to come since you PROBABLY made a tech error. In Marth's case, that means either super-committing to an approach or giving up a LOT of stage control. Peach had waayyy too much notice on this.

Please stop DJing for no reason.

I got bored at 4 minutes in. Most all of your damage that you get is from either being scared for no reason or just being slow on punishes/picking bad ones which results in the opponent getting to punish you for free.

Scare's game(s), depending on how many I want to do, coming next.

@ Twitchtv people, I REALLY dislike critiquing streams matches since it's very difficult to be able to go back to a specific spot without re-watching an additional 20 seconds of I-don't-care. If possible, see if you can get them on YT somehow? If not, I'll do them but yeah... I may or may not get bored more quickly and stop.
 

C.J.

Smash Master
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Scare vs DK

You whiffed two HUGE opportunities right off the bat. I don't necessarily agree with the immediate PC->fair approach, but whatever. Immediately following that though, you let him through your (poorly spaced) ledge traps for free and then you let him DJ while above you and let him land for free.

Your rolls are getting you hurt

Stop jumping when he's in the air with his back to you. You're pretty split on that.

You have to counter that upB when it's that easy/obvious (the onstage one after he respawns)

Your first death was just due to awful decision making. You had a really solid lead on DK while at kill %s yourself. Uair hits like a truck and the R/R wasn't worth it. Go to the stage and just trap hi on the ledge.

Be more careful of your DJs in general.

When you have a decent lead, slow the pace of the match down. If attacking is what has been working so far and he doesn't seem to be adapting to it, cool, attack, ut go slower. It gives you more time to react, you're not approaching for him, and you force him to play your game. This is true for almost every MU. When you have a decent lead, slow the match down and make things happen at the pace you want them to happen at.

That entire thing from like 2:08 till you died where you were on the ledge getting hit by random badness for not spacing DS right, not drop away fairing, etc was just cringeworthy. Just examine that yourself and think how each option Marth has would have affected that differently. I'm not going into detail on that. I will say that had you slowed down, things would have gone better.

When you respawn until you drop the edgeguard (juse wait onstage/at SH height when they're that high up since it leaves you with the most flexibility- specifically, don't fall below the stage for no reason. It's better to land then jump again) was all wonderful. You were much more methodical than in the previous parts of the match and it's because you slowed down.

Go to the DK frame data thread. Learn what you can usmash as a punish.

NEVER EVER EVER GR DK. He gets a 10 frame advantage on you.

3:56-4:04 was wonderful. Watch how, while you were still attacking, you were going slower and more methodically. That needs to be how you play ALL the time when you have a decent (stockish) lead.

His respawning up, and including, through the fsmash you finally landed on him was awful. You whiff free punishes a ton. LIke I stressed to reslive, you HAVE to know your punishes.

Don't overcommit on your juggles.

Don't AD into someone onstage.

I'm going to hit you for your first death when I finally meet you. There were so many things you could have done that entire sequence. You deserved that death.

You CAN'T mess up your low % autocombos- especially not a 0% uair

If nair 1 whiffs, don't go forward... basically ever. ESPECIALLY not when you have the stock lead and can just play safer to make him play your game.

Actually, the last part of your second stock and a fair bit of your 3rd stock you were trying to win when you should have been trying to just keep on doing what you were doing.

UP SMAAASSHHHHH

More grabs!


I stopped at your SD because... yeah.
 

C.J.

Smash Master
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Blunted object vs Stupid-awful-annoying-run-around-in-circles-character

Your fsmashes are amazingly telegraphed. BigD avoided a ton in a row. I'm not going to go through and time stamp them because I hate searching for things on stream archives since it end up with me watching 20 seconds more than I want whenever I try to backtrack and find something. But, go through yourself and watch how/when you fsmash. You'll catch on very quickly to how telegraphed they are.

Your nair spacing is lacking. You rising nair over Sonic's head on more than a few occasions and proceed to not FF them letting Sonic get under you (or at least he should be- he missed a few easy ones). Additionally, you have the same issue that Glen does. If nair1 whiffs, you have a tendency to keep moving forward and hoping to get lucky with nair2 hitting instead of retreating and setting up your zone again. By doing this, you just put yourself into the opponent's range while applying no pressure to him. For an easier to identify example, look at Scare's matches vs DK and watch how many times he keeps moving forward resulting in getting fsmashed/dsmashed/etc

You BIGGEST problem that I'm seeing is when you jump. Sonic is annoyingly fast. If you jump while across the stage for no real reason, and you do this a lot, you are going to get punished for it. Watch how often Sonic will charge spindash, you jump very far from him, and then you end up getting hit by spindash or uair or fair or something.



There's really not much to say in general about DDD matches, it's all covered in my guide on it, but you just really need to get your capitalizations better vs him. When he's offstage, that needs to be either almost a stock or if he's at higher %s, it needs to be a stock. You're above DDD w/o your DJ too often and you should basically try to play the MU pretending that DB and fsmash don't exist unless ftilt/dtilt/some other really unsafe move hits your shield. DB and fsmash are just too unsafe and will get you put on the ledge from anywhere on the stage.

You REALLY need to know what to do on moving platforms with grabs/your low % grab combos. Grabbing anyone on the SV platform, and then throwing them the direction opposite the way you're moving (throwing them to the left when the platform is going to the right, for example) is REALLY bad. You let them land for free and reset to a neutral position when you could be following up and applying pressure/gaining stage control.

WALK out of CGs. DS/SD can get you punished REALLY hard.

See previous comment about nair.

You need to work on your ledge play. You take your time before committing to an option, jump around and the like, but the final options you choose to get up are all consistently beaten by the same one or two options from most characters.

I have to say though, I REALLY REALLY like that you're not afraid to grab DDD first. People are always so paranoid about IC and DDD grabbing them that they're too scared to just grab them first. It's such a powerful tool.


IN general, you need to FF your aerials a lot more.
 

C.J.

Smash Master
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Messages
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Ipod vs Snake

Very first thing you did was an approaching fair, while falling into Snake with no regards to spacing it out. You want to be using rising fair a LOT in this MU (FH and SH) to prevent Snake from getting grabs (12%+ follow-up) or ftilts (21%). Additionally, Snake isn't mobile outside of his DACUS so by using rising fair you retain the ability to have more area you can land on which makes it extremely difficult for Snake to cover the options appropriately.

You have a terrible rolling habit. Replace it with walking or, if you feel you're in immediate danger, dashing away from the opponent. Rolls are easy to read and punish and Marth's back roll is barely usable (outside of as use as a return to neutral post-perfect falling fair) and his forward roll is all kinds of trash. (Stupid MK getting the best f-roll in the game)

Vs Snake, being confident in the mid-range is one of the most important things in the MU. I talk about this all the time, and really don't want to type it all out again so I'm going to go get David to talk about it since he talked to me about it recently. BASICALLY the idea is that Snake's best tool(s) in the MU are DA and nades. If you react to them in midrange, Snake loses his most effective tools vs Marth.

Your second stock until you killed him for the first time was all just a result of poor spacing.

Fun fact: Snake's DA isn't safe on hit at low %s.

Utilt is an awesome AA move. You're getting hit by it so much because you're not spacing your aerials correctly (and they're not rising) and you're falling into Snake after the active hitbox wears away.

Go through the match and just count the number of times you get grabbed out of fair- it's a lot. You need to be using rising fair more and when you are falling with it into the ground, you need to be doing so going away from Snake instead of into him.

Count your whiffed fsmashes. Replace fsmash with ftilt- it has a "better" arc, is about as safe on shield- maybe safer, I don't remember offhand, and if you connect you don't stale your kill moves. Additionally, although it hasn't come up yet, it functions quite well as a platform pressure tool.

Last death was from going in too far with fair. Fair on hit isn't really safe at low %s. You need to maintain appropriate spacing at all times.

Still waayyy too much rolling.

Refine your ledge trapping a lot. You're letting Snake back onstage for free. You should be getting a fair bit of damage off of ledge traps.

Work on your grenade game. You're letting yourself get stripped too often and then losing out of positional advantage and taking damage.

Your wake-up game is really predictable.

Watch your ADs.

You're trying to kill him too much. Grab more and get the positional advantage- it'll lead you into getting hits.

Shield drop->turn around -> grab Do it over and over again in training mode until you can do it a hundred times in a row. Go back and watch the match only looking for times where that would have been useful. Your gameplay will instantly get significantly better.
 

smashkng

Smash Lord
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I think there are situations where GRing DK can be actually useful. I love to pummel people a lot when I grab near the edge of stages. People usually get afraid of mashing because they are aware that it could make them accidentally buffer something that makes them SD and then they also get to the ledge (eventually Fthrowing is also good I guess). When he falls offstage from a ground release he gets that slip thing and gets forced to grab the ledge. The ledge prevents him from having frame advantage I think, because he can't do anything from a ledge grab until about frame 26. If we grab DK at a slope or the ledge and see that his feet aren't touching the ground, we can get a GR Fair on him right CJ? Otherwise yeah no reason to ever GR DK, if we grab him and Uthrow (or Fthrow at low percents) he's in huge trouble anyway.
 

Dogg/Naoki/Suzaku

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
183
Ipod vs Snake

Playing against Snake at mid ranges is extremely important, as this is usually where Snake starts the momentum. Ideally, Marth should be walking and reacting (like C.J. was saying). Treat the mid range as Snake’s dash attack length. Shielding is really good; beats f tilt, dash attack, and DACUS, but loses to dash grab (you should be able to see it coming though). Snakes love to DACUS as soon as you dash in, so be patient and bait it when you can. To punish Snake’s dash attack, try to turn around grab after shielding it. D tilt after the dash attack can lead into strings, such as dancing blade, fair, another d tilt, or a grab. If you’re not sure if Snake is in front or behind try to pivot dancing blade. You can even attempt to upsmash if you can react fast enough, potentially setting up a juggle.

I actually liked that you were trapping Snake's landings with uair. Just refine your juggles and traps (punishing landings with d tilt or grabs depending on your spacing and if there is a nade present) and the MU will be much easier.
 

Nicholas1024

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 14, 2009
Messages
1,075
I wish I had vids of myself vs MK, considering how I struggle in that matchup, but this will have to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SlRKzWZAaU

By the way, I know D-throw/F-throw to F-smash isn't a good option when it's not guaranteed, blame it on the amount of Melee I'd been playing. (That said, I would like to hear what setups you like out of those moves.)
 

Keys1281

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 9, 2008
Messages
207
Location
Madison, AL
Nick, you seem to be over-committing to certain things that you shouldn't be. Your approaches are really straightforward, so you should feign them a little more. Do more empty shorthops I suppose. You have really good usage of USmash OoS but I think you rely on USmash just a bit too much overall (like 2:03). At certain points you kept trying to retaliate with landing/doing aerials right next to your opponent, which ended up with you getting hit with stuff like 1:23. Don't airdodge so much when trying to recover, and remember to recover low if possible.

4:25 DB down is bad in this situation, when he was so close to you. Against DK, you want to make sure you stay grounded if he is using bairs, because properly spaced FTilt/maybe jab will beat that easily. Again, a poorly used USmash at 4:33 when you coulda gone for DB. Luckily he misspaced Dsmash. You're also wayyy too close to him when he was at the ledge around 4:37.
5:24 excellent DTilt, just poorly spaced.

Just DS people if they keep hitting you with aerials offstage. 6:07 DTilt would be much safer and basically guaranteed here. 6:12 UpSmash HERE would be incredible, but you were nervous and hit the panic button, letting DK keep his stock D: and then went for a useless UpSmash.

Your reaction time seems a little slow....which you may need to work at. It's really easy to just play completely reactionary against DK. You shouldn't be getting hit with Fairs. Ever.

Overall, less UpSmash (unless it's guaranteed or to punish obvious stuff like DK's Bair), more reaction/less aggresion, and more DTilt for landings. You defninitely played alright this set, you just had a few bad habits. Good spacing for the most part. Just be a little more patient.
 

Keys1281

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Exdeath--

You want to use DB1 a little later in your second jump for maximum height and stalling. You probably could have done another DB1 but nonetheless, DI is really the most important part about why you died here. So many people don't realize it, but if you DI properly, you will not only NOT die off the blast zone, but you have WAY better stage positioning/easier time recovering. So important.

Around 1:00- No reason at all to be FSmashing here. Terrible laggy option when you can just wait and see what he does. Also, don't UpB out of tornado if you're at the very end. It's worth taking the extra 2% to be back on the ground, and not above MK.

1:05- You can't really catch MK offguard when he's just throwing attacks out--especially USmash. If you're going to just dash in (which is not advised), use DB/shield/mayyyybe cross-up pivot grab. MK/Marth is really all about having the center of the stage, but you have to walk in and look for an opening; you can't just run in there.

Good USmash OoS @ 1:10, though I don't think it's guaranteed at all....

1:18 I know you want the grab (we all do), but DSmash did too much shield push and DB would still have given you 18%ish.

1:36 recover LOW. You were in a terrible position right there; you gotta be more patient.

You're camping in shield a lot, which MK could've just tornadoed you for. Again, make sure to walk around to retreat/approach. FF aerials too. You were also pivot grabbing almost non-stop...which pivot grab is DEFINITELY a good option....just don't be so predictable with it I suppose. You're also giving up a little bit of stage each time you do it.

Air dodging to the ground too often. MK's love that garbage.

Dthrow -> FSmash doesn't work at all on MK really....unless they airdodge, which you should charge it or walk, then. Dthrow -> Dtilt, tho....that's super legit.

4:29 use more Utilt/Nair/maybe FTilt to pressure people on platforms above you. But SH UAir is slow and not the best option here.

You aren't mixing up your approaches enough. Your movement is really easy to predict/react to. Empty SH, don't always approach.

5:45 no reason to stop the DB...5:59 useless USmash. 6:26 you were very vulnerable here.

Your movement was a little better at the beginning of game 3. Again, just take the nado imo. UpB is too risky.

10:31 dat tech lol.

Hopefully this helped a little. Sorry I didn't give a lot of "general bad habits" advice. C.J.'s thread, tho....
 

Exdeath

Smash Master
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Exdeath--

You want to use DB1 a little later in your second jump for maximum height and stalling. You probably could have done another DB1 but nonetheless, DI is really the most important part about why you died here. So many people don't realize it, but if you DI properly, you will not only NOT die off the blast zone, but you have WAY better stage positioning/easier time recovering. So important.

Around 1:00- No reason at all to be FSmashing here. Terrible laggy option when you can just wait and see what he does. Also, don't UpB out of tornado if you're at the very end. It's worth taking the extra 2% to be back on the ground, and not above MK.

1:05- You can't really catch MK offguard when he's just throwing attacks out--especially USmash. If you're going to just dash in (which is not advised), use DB/shield/mayyyybe cross-up pivot grab. MK/Marth is really all about having the center of the stage, but you have to walk in and look for an opening; you can't just run in there.

Good USmash OoS @ 1:10, though I don't think it's guaranteed at all....

1:18 I know you want the grab (we all do), but DSmash did too much shield push and DB would still have given you 18%ish.

1:36 recover LOW. You were in a terrible position right there; you gotta be more patient.

You're camping in shield a lot, which MK could've just tornadoed you for. Again, make sure to walk around to retreat/approach. FF aerials too. You were also pivot grabbing almost non-stop...which pivot grab is DEFINITELY a good option....just don't be so predictable with it I suppose. You're also giving up a little bit of stage each time you do it.

Air dodging to the ground too often. MK's love that garbage.

Dthrow -> FSmash doesn't work at all on MK really....unless they airdodge, which you should charge it or walk, then. Dthrow -> Dtilt, tho....that's super legit.

4:29 use more Utilt/Nair/maybe FTilt to pressure people on platforms above you. But SH UAir is slow and not the best option here.

You aren't mixing up your approaches enough. Your movement is really easy to predict/react to. Empty SH, don't always approach.

5:45 no reason to stop the DB...5:59 useless USmash. 6:26 you were very vulnerable here.

Your movement was a little better at the beginning of game 3. Again, just take the nado imo. UpB is too risky.

10:31 dat tech lol.

Hopefully this helped a little. Sorry I didn't give a lot of "general bad habits" advice. C.J.'s thread, tho....
1:10 was indeed guaranteed. 5:45 was a bad hit confirm. 5:56 was me expecting him to cancel his Up-B.

Your advice was good and I learned several things that I'd initially missed. Thank you.
 

Keys1281

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1:10 was indeed guaranteed. 5:45 was a bad hit confirm. 5:56 was me expecting him to cancel his Up-B.

Your advice was good and I learned several things that I'd initially missed. Thank you.
Glad I could help, and I'll keep the guaranteed USmash in mind if I see an MK misspace ftilt 2 :D
 

Exdeath

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Glad I could help, and I'll keep the guaranteed USmash in mind if I see an MK misspace ftilt 2 :D
Unless :metaknight:'s tilts are perfectly spaced (which is uncommon unless it's at neutral), Usmash is guaranteed. If you power shield his smash attacks or your body touches his before the attack comes out, then it's also guaranteed vs. those as well. This is because :metaknight:'s joints tend to be low and Usmash's early hit boxes easily grab these.
 

Keys1281

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Good start to the match--work on your spacing a little.

0:55 Don't always go for the Fair when Fthrowing your opponent. Dthrow -> walk -> wait/dtilt/commit less is so good. Good upsmash at 0:59.
You don't really need to be Fsmashing at 1:00, especially when sheik is only at 50%, and that gave up your stage positioning.
Good DS at 1:11. Preemptive UpB is da bess.
Again, work on your spacing and commit less to stuff, *especially* when your opponent is on the ledge. You should be wrecking sheik here.
2:03ish downblade was probably your worst option here....just stop the DB if you miss, unless you think you'll move far enough away doing the full thing (forward), I guess...
DB1/DB1&2 -> shieldbreaker should really not be used (nearly as much as you did here). Only as a rare mixup should you do this.
2:37 There's no reason for you to be using your second jump, and especially not as high up as you were. It led to you losing your stock, when if you'd just wait and recover low, you could have made it back. Your fair will beat sheik's too, so if you're in range, just fair her away.
2:48 Way too close to the ledge again.
2:48-49 Rising aerials not recommended against sheik, and a lot of characters. FF your aerials.

Match 2:
3:47 excellent uair.
You had great spacing when sheik was on the ledge, but your lack of patience helped Ed get back onstage.
4:29 Work on your sweetspotting...you got hit quite a few times for missing this.
4:36 Probably could've waited/stalled with DB to avoid getting edgehogged.
5:35ish Early double jump, and you might could have made it back with an uncharged SB...keep that in mind (though don't be predictable).
6:30 You can't punish sheik/zelda for transforming at the beginning of her 2nd/3rd stock.

General tips:
Less Fsmash at low percents, space properly when your opponent is on the ledge/be patient, don't use your second jump unless absolutely necessary, more dtilt. (One small hint-- SH -> (land) dtilt is great for ledgetraps if they think you'll aerial and tend to AD to the stage.)
You like to retaliate with aerials a lot too, which wasn't punished as much as it should have been. Just because it works doesn't mean it's always a good idea.
 

Ereth

Murda Bidness
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Gainesville, FL
Yeah, I got kinda nervous and messed up some inputs, the SB was supposed to be a DS.

Thanks a lot. Ill take all of this into consideration, and hopefully win next time
 

Exdeath

Smash Master
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXNsj9Gqaos
A set vs. Player-1, who I always narrowly lose to. Anyone have any advice? I went over some of Ramin vs. P-1 and he seems to be in the air a lot more. Any help would be appreciated.
1:30 - Your opponent gave you a guaranteed opening and you dash danced on the other side of the stage instead. If :diddy: pulls a banana at neutral you should take stage control. If he pulls a second banana, you should hit him.

1:35 - When :diddy: is going to hit your landing with a banana, drift forward and air dodge to catch the banana. From there you're usually in a good position because he's either going to pick up a banana or dash in. For the former, he'll either go for a banana lock or he won't go for a direct follow-up. If you instant toss the banana>attack to cover a possible dash attack/re-toss (I feel that the optimal option in this case is to Nair a re-catch and SDI the dash attack>punish him for it -- I never see this used but it is very good in this situation), he'll throw the second banana if he waited but you won't trip. If you go to the latter scenario he'll retreat (generally loses to glide toss forward), throw banana forward (probably the best overall and most common option in this case), or wait in shield. He can also Side-B, at every phase, but if you Naired then it will cover this in addition to him attempting to instant throw your instant throw (it's a set timing).

In regard to him tossing his second banana forward, he'll probably do so since it loses to catch banana>sit in shield, which loses to :diddy:'s initial dash in follow-up that we began with, which happens to be the most common follow-up and effectively makes it into a 50/50 instead of a 33/33/33 if :diddy: can react quickly enough to hit confirm the first banana toss (if he caught the banana and shielded then grab/Side-B; if he caught the banana and tossed it, dash attack).

1:46 - I believe that you did this to simply move that banana away from his control, but in this case :diddy: was open and already had a banana in hand, so I believe that you were better off advancing in this case. Even so, you still chose a good option and this -- along with your banana control at the beginning -- suggests that your understanding of bananas is above average.

1:48 - This was too close; :diddy: had an easy infinite set-up here but either reacted too slowly and/or made a technical error (glide tossing down instead of toward you>grab/attack).

1:56 - Here you hesitated with shield instead of pressing the advantage on his banana pull like earlier and you were put into a poor position because of it.

2:00 - When he spot dodged the Fair, you should have either used Uair (less risk and more reward than Fair in that position), Side-B (to be spot dodge), or empty FFed instead.

2:18 - That roll was one of the worst possible options in that situation. He could have thrown you>pressured you off-stage with that banana.

2:33 - You should have moved forward and grabbed the banana. From there either he pulls another banana and hit him with the first and then follow up (keeping mind the timing to catch it with whatever aerial if he instant throws it back in case you were too slow) or else he grabs the ledge and you glide toss away and reset the ledge trap.

2:46 - Fsmash was a poor option here and I'm not sure what you were reacting to in order to provide an alternative.

2:53 - You were too close to the stage and needed to drift more. He could have safely Ftilted you to end your stock.

3:00 - It would have been better if you grabbed the banana and tossed it up and then proceeded to either aerial him when he attempted to grab the banana that was on the platform or ledge trap him if he let it go.

3:08 - That double jump was considerably risky and was too high to really get any reward and too low to obtain a better position.

3:13 - You committed yourself off-stage (presumably for a Uair), but you could have safely Ftilted at him and then either hit him (less risk with better reward than the off-stage aerial) or proceeded to ledge trap him if he didn't get hit.

3:26 - You should either get on-stage for a ledge trap position or use a longer lasting attack (Nair/Side-B/etc.)

3:36 - That was another risky and unrewarding double jump. You gave up stage control and pressure and put yourself in a bad position.

3:43 - If glide tossing away from :diddy: then either don't throw it at him (it either gives you a positional reward and negligent damage reward or gives him a banana, which isn't really worth it in this case) or use the short glide toss so that you can get a better reward.

4:13 - It would've been ok to air dodge earlier in order to cover a larger area of timing for catching that banana.

4:17 - Spot dodge was a bad option in that position; the banana still would have tripped you and you would still have taken the hit.

4:20 - You should have short glide tossed forward here; you lost the guaranteed as a follow-up even though you would have stayed in just as safe of a zone. This spacing is also why I said not to far glide toss and throw the banana at :diddy:.

4:40 - You didn't react to Side-B at all. You could have at least Up-Bed it.

4:45 - At that range, walk to the ledge instead of dashing. Dashing is mainly for assuming a ledge trap position from across the stage (e.g. after hitting :diddy: from the other ledge with Fair when he's at ~150%).

4:47 - Just in case this wasn't a technical error, you had ample time to hit confirm the Side-B into completing it.

5:04 - You should have short glide tossed the banana upward so that the banana still went out of play and you could safely assume a ledge trap position.

5:12/5:15 - You need to work on moving around hostile objects (e.g. :diddy:'s bananas, :snake:'s Dsmash, etc.) and probably just in general. Try naming two near different objects on Battlefield, naming a series of actions, and then proceeding to complete those actions from the two objects (e.g. Dtilt>Nair beginning in front of Pillar A and ending up in front of Bush C).

5:21 - Mostly a player-specific tip, but it would have done your edge guard game a service to FF>Up-B and/or RAR SHFFNair>Up-B (if you believe that you have enough time) when you predict him going beneath the stage, which that particular player seems to make a habit of doing.

5:22 - You gave up having him cornered by the ledge. Even if you were anticipating him to cover a large area with a hit box (e.g. Ftilt) then you still retreated too far away.

5:26 - Nair would be better in a lot of places in this match-up, but especially so when :diddy: is cornered but not close enough to the ledge to slip off of the stage.

5:28 - You were desperate to force that kill.

5:37 - You can press Z while snap to the ledge to have it drop it while you edge hog. I believe that it would have allowed you a follow-up beneath the stage and probably to take his stock if you had done so here.

5:45 - I'm not sure why you Uaired here. If it was because you reacted to him jumping over you, then you should have FHed and waited to Uair.

5:57 - You once again retreated when you probably could have ended his stock. Once again, even if you expected something like Side-B, you retreated too far.

6:44 - Once again you unnecessarily tripped on a banana while landing. If you landed and tripped on a banana, it's almost guaranteed to have been your mistake.

6:57 - Keeping the banana in hand without a specific purpose tends to be a poor idea while ledge trapping.

7:19 - You should have either Daired or Baired in that situation. You were too high to be ambiguous, too low to escape his OoS options, and Fair wouldn't have had enough shield push to slip :diddy: off of the stage.

Side Note: The amount of damage that you took from peanuts was equivalent to a chain grab and it was unnecessary.
 

Keys1281

Smash Journeyman
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Thanks for the tips. So overall, more airdodge to the ground (when he's throwing bananas), more short glide toss (which I actually don't use/don't know how to do--I'll look it up I suppose), and overall, commit less. Makes sense.
 

Shaya

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Asides from your technical errors, there are are a few things I could pick up

1. You roll instead of walking (or other alternatives to respace) in close range situations.
2. You need to put some attention into what you do after hitting someone. Especially at low percent. And especially if they're close to the ground. There's tons of possible scenarios after you hit someone and it also depends on their percent at the time. Hitting with fair and then completely whiffing the next aerial is enough to get punished (it's even worse if you whiff an aerial afterwards and then do another one to that perfect 38 frames later for easy power shields). You can generally only continue a tipper fair on someone who's on the ground only if you were fast falling shortly after. Learning to feel comfortable with how much leeway you get after hitting someone at ANY percent is a struggle, but you're better off being cautious or taking a little longer to choose your next action (and guess what, staying in the air with a retreating jump against a grounded opponent is so ****ing safe against everyone) then getting punished for being overeager.

3. CROUCHING CROUCHING CROUCHING
Crouch everywhere, Jesus christ. Shielding sucks. Crouch instead. Crouching and then shielding is AMAZING.

4. You need to try and pick up on some of his habits and really get that punishment thing going. You could maybe call this a bit of match up awkwardness though.
Don't do wasted sh fast fall jumps at the same pattern of timing when edge guarding (notice how you never really got anything out of that?)
If you stayed grounded and HAD CROUCHING IN YOUR ARSENAL and were ready to forward tilt/dtilt/jab (or anything) at 2.33 for that risky ledge jump into using his SECOND jump to b reverse then you would've gonked him. Afterwards, it was obvious that he could only side b or go for the ledge. You can definitely react to that binary situation.

P1's go to option from the ledge is fair, and against you he often stalls it so its hitting higher, yet again, crouching.
If he has a banana its a ledge throw. If you power shield that banana you get a guaranteed punish. If you mess it up, reset to neutral. If you regularly shield it and try to punish you're going to get side-b'd or faired or something otherwise.
I can tell you that from the ledge P1 is going to do (80%) one of two sequences of three actions. It isn't even hard reads. If you mess up punishing the ledge jump (or better yet, not even bothering for a highly reactionary thing) then you know what you should be trying to punish next, etc.

5. Don't ever jump when your body is ever vertically aligned with the stage while recovering. You didn't get punished for it because P1's bad. But people good at the Marth match up will **** you for this. DOn't ever do it. This is one of the bad habits nearly every Marth main has. 2.36 3.39 6.47 (you should've uaired for your punish) 11.06 15.45
btw, what i'm trying to say is, that jumping right there is leaving you open, and while you can obviously jump there when you aren't in jeopardy but why have the habit there in the first place?
Also you can afford to weave backwards and forwards a bit whilst recovering, you have more leeway than you think, and everyone tries to punish a timing window they've muscle memorised 5 years ago (aren't marth main habits amazing?)

6. Don't use your second jump for juggle "traps". It's 9/10 times not worth it. Being able to get to the ground first is one of Marth's natural strengths. 12.41 for example

7. People punish marth while he dashes forward.
So stop dashing forward when close. Lol.

I like your Marth though. Less panic and fill in some of your holes and you'll be ****** :D
 

Shaya

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For lacking of words, you don't have much control nor precision with Marth. Bad jumps, bad whiffs/useless laggying-me-ups.

You need to start focussing on walking. You need to figure out how to use your shield and become more comfortable with doing things out of shield. You need to not make so much commitment in what you do as it's PUNISHMENT season.
Your ground game consists of dashing and dancing blade. And as I said in the other topic, you need to respect pre-100% edge guards... forward smash (which is a bad punish, especially because you NEVER hit with it) needs to get out of your head -> oh wait you hit it a few times on PS1... to me you're just gambling with it rather than being exceptional with it.

Never jump where you jumped at 2.03 second match. There's a paragraph in my post above yours about it.

You're not comfortable with your punishments and your follow ups. If you hit someone with dtilt, then again but it tippers, a third down tilt is completely wasted. Instead of 3 down tilts you should have gone for aerials after the tipper. A lot of these things/situations (which there are thousands of) come a bit from experience.
You get a few power shields but fail at capitalising every time.

The basic step in punishment is not trying to punish the move you see, but what they're going to do afterwards. Start thinking about this more and think about what your opponent's next options are/will likely be, usually, they have very very very little going for them, but it's easy to make it free highway for them. If you are getting punished consistently for trying to punish then you are NOT DOING IT RIGHT @@@@@

You know how M2K plays against CPUs. Practises strings and gets comfortable with the positions he needs to be in for follow ups. Always think after a hitconfirm.

Take melee marth as an example, you hit someone with forward air and [wave]dash forward and fsmash, either as a guess or because you are comfortable with the distance you needed to travel after your hit confirm. Marth is essentially the same thing in Brawl except your tools require more skill. You hit someone with forward air and consider where they're going to be in a few moments, that's what you're setting yourself up for.
On the same vein, how you follow up forward throw beyond combo percent is exactly the same thing. No you can't wave dash (or dash), but you can walk and shield and use every move you have. And you have the mobility anyway.
 

Sar

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Aug 23, 2012
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Shaya

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I can tell you don't have much experience in match ups or in Marth completely. I do like a couple of things you do and you have an idea about spacing.

What you need to do is watch high/top level Marths, a lot.
Concentrate on what they do for punishing things. You chose to fsmash a lot. Better players will go for things that have follow ups.
Concentrate on what they do when their shield gets hit. Marth's punishment options are amazing out of shield.
Concentrate on what they do after they hit someone with an aerial when coming in from the ground, and from rising scenarios. You need to figure out what buffering is and start to get comfortable with it; this will speed up your otherwise extremely slow moving Marth.
In terms of being safe/keeping safe, this really is a massive experience thing. Trying to land with a knee high forward air directly above a Snake isn't a good idea, for example (but if you timed that forward air to be hitting his head, then you would be either trading with a sourspot utilt or hitting him with something that sends him directly into the air for COMBOS).

tl;dr stop fsmashing.
And get better at buffering.

Buffering protips:
Being able to spot dodge into a buffered spot dodge
being able to spot dodge into a buffered turn around
Being able to buffer that turn around into other things, such as another spot dodge or shielding. (with the latter being harder and if you mess up you'll roll).
Being able to buffer all the aforementioned things out of a shield drop rather than a spot dodge.

Now buffering turn arounds is very good against a lot of levels of play because it allows you to GRAB people who try to cross over you (with aerials or dash attacks/etc). This all comes back to your punishment options/choices.

I got all this from your first two minutes or so of your snake video.
If you want me to talk to you about how you're playing the match up I can delve further. For one though, Marth's backwards roll out of a tech (or snake dthrow) is the second longest in the game and has to be hard read for Snake to punish. Do that instead of just getting up and being regrabbed :p also use fthrow at low percent against fatties, uthrow from mid percent if you like using it.

seriously, stop fsmashing
 

Sar

Smash Journeyman
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Thanks shaya, that helped a lot. I realized that I fsmash way too much, part of it is that I think I don't get punished enough for it. What would you suggest as an alternative punish option? A quick rising fair/nair maybe?

Also if it's not too much of a bother, any other snake mu advice would be greatly appreciated. I main GW and really only picked up Marth because I have a snake problem.

And that snake dthrow advice probably would help a lot. I'm assuming you didn't get to the part of the video where I get grab techchased for 96% .
 

Shaya

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Grabbing is pretty good.
Dancing Blade is the bread and butter and unstales your moves.
If you aren't getting punished for things, usually its more of a "I should be getting punished for this though" thought process going on in my mind, and knowing that they fail to punish that often (and usually they fail to punish that option in the SAME WAY (failed dash grab or spot dodge for example)) you can get a lot of others things going for you that take a little more time. Although you don't always get punished for these things, you get punished for them at least more than once per game.

Fair, uair, dtilt, everything really. This is a "see what the better players do and practise doing the same things".

The way I play against Snake is probably hard to explain and I think you should look for a thread by C.J. (I'm pretty sure he did one).
I rely a lot on going for things out of power shield (like power shielding a nade throw and moving forward and reshielding the explosion [and extending the hitbox of the explosion further]). I like to bait dash attacks, and generally the best way to deal with that is shield drop -> turn around -> grab. How I bait dash attack is usually nair.

I find that I'm pretty okay at catching items in the air and I tend to count (not really count, its more like "okay its not going to explode for at least another 2 seconds, okay its about to explode or **** its going to explode" for every grenade pluck) grenades to best abuse them. I like to throw them back and having a general idea of timing and the likelihood of snake pulling another nade to make it drop, I power shield that now dropping nade/explosion for a really amazing rush down approach.

Also another thing, if you get a hit confirm from any move (usually aerial), you need to get your reflexes/movements out of it down pat so you can continue to apply pressure.
 
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