Marth tech discussion&P.Pivot application

[DariusM27]

When Perfect Pivoting was first discovered, I thought it was pretty useless, because of it's difficulty and how difficult it is to act out of it consistently.
Now I can now do Perfect Pivoting basically on command, in most situations, and do just about anything before or after.

I have recently found this makes spamming full hop Fair a pretty nice option, and can both make Marth safer and improve his punish game.
This is because he can land farther away, while still being able to pressure with strong hits very quickly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOIAzO8g2IU&t=0m6s
0:06 - 0:33 Dash to P.Pivot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOIAzO8g2IU&t=0m35s
0:35 Long distance Fsmash via P.Pivot & Dash cancel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOIAzO8g2IU&t=0m47s
0:47 Land behind or in front - perfect pivot Fsmash (Can be used to bait a grab or jab after dropping shield)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOIAzO8g2IU&t=1m04s
1:04 Another long distance Fsmash

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOIAzO8g2IU&t=1m14s
1:14 Another Land P.Pivot fsmash (Landing to pivot in the same direction as the jump=a farther pivot)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOIAzO8g2IU&t=1m27s
1:27 Approaching out of range - P.Pivot Fsmash (Could have landing farther away and used a DashCancel to gain extra range)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84efeALlIi8
This shows an idea of the potential distance that can be covered.

Here's these techs being applied in matches. The opponents are not very good, but they aren't cpu lvl terrible either.

Land out of range to raw P.Pivot Fsmash
(Difficulty level - Above average. Risk level - depends on situation - Little risk if punishing bad spacing or laggy moves - High risk if just throwing it out raw in the neutral.
Great for hard punish on wiffs.)

1. Marth v Sheik https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02My5oPMfqs&t=2m58s

2. Marth v Dk 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3-e1HRgU0I&t=1m00s
I know this wasn't the best DK ever, but he was dangerous enough with the grab combos.
I feel these videos showcase how safe Marth can be in the air vs DK if he maintains good spacing.
I got a Landing out of range pivot Fsmash here also - It was no where near as far as others I've gotten, I'm still practicing for consistency - and I think my falling momentum was working against the direction of the P.Pivot.
But the general idea is, if Marth can land outside of range, then quickly move in, the opponent may not expect it.

Edit -
Got it here too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anQiejdgKJc
^This one is the general strategy. If the opponenet commits to a move or just doesn't get out of the way fast enough after dropping shield, they could die pretty easily.



So yeah, P.Pivoting can be used for offense and defense.

I think it comes down to the test of time to see if these movement options really pay off for Marth. But at least for now, I feel like I am maintaining a good offense while doing a better job avoiding getting chased down - grabbed - and braindead Nairo/copy-cat JANK KOd.

If anyone has any other ideas for setups or other ways to lead into Fsmash tippers, feel free to speculate.

Also, check out Logicalityz's YT channel. He is doing a lot of really cool things with P.Pivots too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB1kmbnuxow

 

[GeflGabe]

Ah yes, the true pain of having only the 3DS to grind on.
I have never gotten into P. pivot practice in fear my circle pad will snap. Although I have yet to break a single circle pad out of the 4 3DS systems I have used.
Do you have any tips on trying to P.P. on 3DS? I'm starting to get uneasy that the switch won't get a Smash 4 port, but if it happens, I pray they will have GC adapters so I may finally train properly.

 

[DariusM27]

Ah yes, the true pain of having only the 3DS to grind on.
I have never gotten into P. pivot practice in fear my circle pad will snap. Although I have yet to break a single circle pad out of the 4 3DS systems I have used.
Do you have any tips on trying to P.P. on 3DS? I'm starting to get uneasy that the switch won't get a Smash 4 port, but if it happens, I pray they will have GC adapters so I may finally train properly.

Do you use SmashCstick or Tilt stick?

 

[DariusM27]

New P.Pivot tech application!! Excited about this one!

P.Pivot bait to dash away Tipper
(Difficulty - Below average. Situational, read-based, risk level - medium, probably good for exploiting ledge getups, recoveries, and landings)

So basically, Marth has trouble being aggressive, because Dancing Blade is nice, but pretty punishable on shield.

This tech offers a practical mix up to apply safer pressure against defensive play.

Basically, instead of dashing into Dancing Blade, the idea is to dash into a P.Pivot, then P.Pivot the opposite direction into a well spaced tipper attack zone.

The timing can be so that by the time they realize you aren't dashing in for a Dancing Blade, a Jab, Tilit, Fsmash, or Shieldbreaker could be in their face before they can act out of shield.

It could also be used to bait grabs and other options.

Although this tech definitely loses to attacks, so the opponent has to be conditioned into shielding or passive play first.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa-hCeIxufs - In practice

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQFRfIW2QCI&t=2m20s - In a match

 

[GeflGabe]

Do you use SmashCstick or Tilt stick?

Well I do have the N3DSXL, but the c-stick controls cannot be changed. I'd change it to tilt otherwise.

 

[DariusM27]

Well I do have the N3DSXL, but the c-stick controls cannot be changed. I'd change it to tilt otherwise.

Then you can use the same input method I use.

"Easy Perfect Pivots" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxSZbjT4uUM

Controls
Set A+B=Smash
Set a convenient shoulder button to Special (Mine is Left-Z - a friend of mine uses the rear Left button)
Smash Cstick

Method
Use a move - any move (Attack, aerial, roll, ect)
Before that move's animation ends, press and hold both A and B (use the Left shoulder Special button you set up) - without accidentally buffering an Fsmash
(Example - While doing Dtilt - press and hold A to attack, then hold B right after that)

You can now move around while A and Special are held down, which will allow you to do easy P.Pivots - like this...

Dash one direction and Cstick immediately the opposite direction.

If you practice that for a while, you will have the same control setup that I have, unless I have overlooked something.

I am still labbing this out, but if my speculation is correct, this should make more oppenings to land Tipper Fsmashes.

I have some other strategic uses for this setup in mind to use to get early kills, and I have already posted a few.

But as I posted above, it can also give you some mobility options you might not have otherwise had.

Anyway, hope that helps, good luck. If you come up with anything, please share.


---------------------------EDIT------------------------------

"New" Application/ Strategic Tipper Fsmash Setup!
(Difficulty - Average. Risk level - Below average. Excellent to use when you have both ideal spacing and psychological advantage. Can cover a lot of range very fast.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt2UvENb4MM&t=1m36s

I used to dislike Marth's ground range, even post-buff. Now I think it's good.

So, first of all, I want to point out that my play was really sloppy and bad in this match a lot.
The reason for that is because I am waiting for a replacement controller, so right now I'm using the Wii U gamepad and it is awkward and puts tension on my wrists.
I just really wanted to try and get this Tipper setup, and luckily, it worked out the very first game I tried it on, so I had to upload.

So, I recommend watching this setup at .25 speed, starting at 1:37.

-I P.Pivot back to gain a bit more space. I could actually P.Pivot dashcancel Fsmash from this distance, but I decided to move up a bit more, in this case.

-I step into a Dancing Blade. At this point I have almost completely check-mated Mario.

He is thinking "I can't dash into shield at this range because he is too close. I also can't roll behind him because he is too far away. I don't want to stand here without a shield because I know Marth can use the rest of Side B to cover the distance."

Even after the two swings of DB is finished, the Mario doesn't approach because I could throw out an attack before he could reach me - and experienced Mario players know this.

-He starts flashing shield. That's when I P.Pivot Fsmash. Again, I could have successfully landed that Tipper Fsmash starting from further back, if I needed to. I'm still working on perfecting it.

The reason this setup is so good is, I could have done the P.Pivot Fsmash after a Dtilt or a Jab, which both have less cool down, but Dancing Blade is much more likely to bait out the shield from Mario than those other moves.

Another thing I want to add.

At 3:08 I go for the exact same setup, this time closer to max distance range. The Mario player, to his credit, attempts to adapt to the situation by waiting for the attack and rolling behind it.

I could have done a lot of things to anticipate this. The fact that he wasn't shielding could have tipped me off to his adaptation.

Perhaps the best thing I could have done would be to either wait in place and Dtilt, or I could have P.Pivoted to bait the roll and then punished the roll with either a grab or an attack. But any number of options could have been taken.

Another good reason to use Dancing Blade into this Tipper setup is that you can set this up easily at any time. You can run across the stage and throw out a few hits of Dancing Blade, then decide to either Shield, attack, or evade the opponent's approach from that distance - or press forward with the KO option that they can't possibly be expecting.

So that's it. I think it's a very strong tool in Marth's arsenal. This and other P.Pivot applications could make up the difference in a lot of match ups currently difficult for Marth, but time will tell.

(Just for comparison - these show a good idea of close to the maximum reach this input can achieve- which is pretty darn far
1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOIAzO8g2IU&t=1m04s
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOIAzO8g2IU&t=0m35s)

Since basically the game came out, the setups for Marth's strongest KO option have been
-Hard reads
-Capitalizing on poor opponent neutral play by getting a Tipper off of bad DI, or off of Nair1 (which is nice when you can get it, but it's unlikely to get it vs very good players)

That's just about it.

I think this tech adds a more -rock/paper/sissors- aspect to Marth's Fsmash neutral game, and rewards Marth for playing at a safer distance more consistently. Not that Marth couldn't get it some other way before, but this tech just has a reliability to it, I think.

edit -

Got it here vs a not-that-good Rob.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfTSZuF0RuQ

 

[Nyhte]

Full hop FAIR is pretty good, and perfect pivots are really good too because the standard movement Marth has is pretty limiting in terms of getting that KO. Aside from a movement option besides dashing or walking with the forward smash, ever since that patch where they buffed jab, perfect pivot is also really good for spacing with jab into the kill moves.

You have some really nice tippers.

That ending kill on the rob in the last clip was nice

 

[DariusM27]

Full hop FAIR is pretty good, and perfect pivots are really good too because the standard movement Marth has is pretty limiting in terms of getting that KO. Aside from a movement option besides dashing or walking with the forward smash, ever since that patch where they buffed jab, perfect pivot is also really good for spacing with jab into the kill moves.

You have some really nice tippers.

That ending kill on the rob in the last clip was nice

Thanks!