Marth Tech-Chasing

[PenguinShift]

How do I tech chase with this guy? I'm really not too sure. The most I can do when trying to cover someone's tech is to dash-wavedash back and hope they tech in. If they tech in place/away all I try to do is try to grab them, since I feel like I don't have any other options.

This is especially bad if they tech away on a downthrow. I feel like they're so far away that I don't have time for anything. I know downtilt it probably good, but it's always in that zone where you're in a dash and all you can do it grab, wd, or dash attack.

 

[Kansai]

Your grab is bretty good. I should work out most of the time. You just have to react fast.

 

[MookieRah]

Do you have the 20XX training mod (not to be confused with the Tournament mod)? It randomizes teching (to tech or not, as well as teching in place or rolling either direction) as well as DI (granted it has a huge bias towards cardinal directions due to how melee reads the controller input). While it doesn't help you *read* you can use it to craft a personal flow chart to catch specific options.

I'll give an example to help explain what I mean:
I've found that I can cover most options after a down throw to dash towards my opponent after the downthrow, and then follow the tech; however, it's hard (and possiblyimpossible for some combinations) to react to a missed tech, or a DI away roll away. So for general purposes, this is pretty good, cause it covers more options.

However; if you expect your opponent to DI away and tech roll away, you can work on another system that can catch that, and as many other options if they chose something other than this.

EDIT: I didn't read your entire post, but I'm certain that you could catch DI away and tech away, but it would be more of a hard read, because you kinda have to dash asap and keep running to catch them. That said, you can practice your reaction by using that tactic and trying to adapt it to what the computer does in 20XX and see what options you are able to cover with your reactions.

The idea here being that there is not one system that catches everything well, but you could develop and practice multiple and use your observations to inform your decisions.

A caveat though:
DI away + tech roll away gives up A TON of stage. As long as you cut your opponent off, that in and of itself is a victory in terms of stage control. A tech chase doesn't have to grant you another grab to be successful. As long as you can place yourself in such a way that you aren't vulnerable, if they gave up all that stage you win.

 

[Hunybear]

Whenever I D-throw tech chase anyone I always immediately dash back to where they'll land. If they tech away, I'm already running in that direction. If they tech in place, I'm already there. If they miss tech I punish. If they tech in I just DD back. Gravy posted a video on the 20GX YouTube channel on tech chasing that was really helpful.

 

[FE_Hector]

I haven't done any testing, but I'm relatively sure that fthrow techchasing works. I'm pretty sure PPMD has commented about thinking a lot more Marth's need to do that, especially in the Fox MU. Also, I'm pretty sure that techchase Dolphin Slash would work SUPER well at higher %s as soon as you learn to space the Dolphin Slash well. Actually, I feel that Dolphin Slash is really underused in a lot of players' punish games.

 

[Kansai]

I haven't done any testing, but I'm relatively sure that fthrow techchasing works. I'm pretty sure PPMD has commented about thinking a lot more Marth's need to do that, especially in the Fox MU. Also, I'm pretty sure that techchase Dolphin Slash would work SUPER well at higher %s as soon as you learn to space the Dolphin Slash well. Actually, I feel that Dolphin Slash is really underused in a lot of players' punish games.

I think it's because it's super ambiguous where the strong hitbox of Dolphin Slash is. With things like f-smash you can get away with not sweetspotting it most of the time and not get punished, but if you get the weak hitbox of d-slash (which is most of it) a punish is likely.

 

[Stride]

I think it's because it's super ambiguous where the strong hitbox of Dolphin Slash is. With things like f-smash you can get away with not sweetspotting it most of the time and not get punished, but if you get the weak hitbox of d-slash (which is most of it) a punish is likely.

It's not that hard to space, mostly because the strong hit takes priority. You get the strong hit pretty much whenever you're not right on top of the opponent (such that the strong hitbox doesn't touch them at all). Look at this: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Marth_(SSBM)/Up_special

 

[MookieRah]

I've been working on a flowchart for fthrow tech-chasing, and it seems to be quite good against heavies after 7-10%. I'm fairly sure it's humanly possible to cover pretty much every option too, and after playing with it for a couple of hours I honestly think that fthrow is better than downthrow in a lot of situations.

Anyways, here is the process.

After fthrow, always hold forward.

• If they DI so they are close to you (within dtilt range), let go of holding forward and crouch.
• If they DI so they are away from you, keep holding forward so that you will walk into dtilt range.

Right when they could input a tech, crouch. Here is a caveat to this step:

• If they DI'd so they are close to you, your main focus should be to watch for their attempt to roll through you. The reason for this is two fold: One, if they are really close to you and attempt to roll through you, they will be farther away from you after the roll, so it would be harder to regrab/attack them.
• If they DI in the middle or far away, your focus should be on landing a potential dtilt if they don't tech or tech in place. The secondary concern is that you catch an attempt to roll through you. Note that if they DI far away from you and attempt to roll through you, you can dtilt them out of their roll as they lose invincibility before they pass you.

What to do from there:

• If they miss a tech or tech in place, dtilt and push forward. If your throw pushes them so that the ledge is in fsmash tipper range, feel free to fsmash instead, as it will cover all the space in front of you.
• If they roll through you, take the regrab, and downthrow them so that they are put back into the corner again. If you accidentally dtilt, you may still have time to immediately turn around and regrab as long as they weren't DI'ing into you from the throw.
• If they roll away, it's most important that you don't dtilt, as you should try to close ground. If you have insane reflexes, you might be able to regrab, but honestly by rolling away your opponent gives up almost half of FD's length in stage so it's honestly not necessary. I'm not certain if it's wise to dash after them in situations that you know you can't regrab, because you lose options from run. Right now I think walking towards them is best, as it applies pressure to them and they will likely feel forced to engage you from a disadvantaged position.

The #1 important thing to remember is that as much as tech-chasing is about racking up percent and getting into your opponent's head, it should also be about gaining as much stage advantage as possible. Always be careful to prevent your opponent from rolling through you and reversing the situation.

EDIT:

If they DI towards you and you do not move forward after a forward throw, Captain Falcon cannot hit you with his get-up attack. I will test the spacies to see if this holds true. If that is the case, then you can streamline the process even more by simply not worrying about a no-tech scenario, as you have more time to react to it because you wouldn't need to attack in order to protect yourself from being hit.

 

[Ladder]

Your grab is bretty good. I should work out most of the time. You just have to react fast.

We need to play a best of 5 for the black marth profile picture man, I'm calling a 5-0.

 

[Archelon]

I haven't done any testing, but I'm relatively sure that fthrow techchasing works. I'm pretty sure PPMD has commented about thinking a lot more Marth's need to do that, especially in the Fox MU. Also, I'm pretty sure that techchase Dolphin Slash would work SUPER well at higher %s as soon as you learn to space the Dolphin Slash well. Actually, I feel that Dolphin Slash is really underused in a lot of players' punish games.

An easy trick you can do (though not necessarily optimal) is F-Throw D-smash. It works on some characters better than others (best on Sheik), but if you fthrow then time the d-smash to hit tech in place, the first hit covers tech in place, and missed, and the second hit covers tech in, meaning that you can have a 50-50 by reading Tech away (and grabbing/ f-smash) or any of the other options (and d-smashing). It's just little, easy trick that you can use. Hope it can help .

 

[FE_Hector]

Ah, well, I've been playing Falco almost exclusively for a while now. I was just throwing out some ideas I had. I don't wanna let this Marth knowledge go to waste.

 

[Archelon]

Ah, well, I've been playing Falco almost exclusively for a while now. I was just throwing out some ideas I had. I don't wanna let this Marth knowledge go to waste.

Yeah... I think yours is more optimal once you learn to do it.

 

[Dr. Bread]

ideally you want to move so that youre standing right next to where they land, facing them. that way you have ample time to cover no-tech or tech in place. tech rolls aren't actionable until 40 frames, compared to the 26 frames on tech in-place and no-tech(which has no intangibility).

your character might also have certain options which cover no-tech but also leave you enough time to react to all 3 tech options, which may be helpful for you.

 

[ETMIV]

I see there are a couple threads on Marth tech chase. Just for clarification, does anyone know if Marth can tech chase like 20GX Falcon, i.e. theoretically-guaranteed zero to death reaction tech chases, even beating an immediate Fox shine?

I wonder because part of the pitch 20GX seems to make is that Falcon's speed really makes these outrageous tech chases possible, but Sheik can reaction tech chase too. So obviously if members of the community are going this route for punishes, it'd be nice to know how many of the strongest characters can do this stuff.

I'd try to run a simulation of this myself, but I don't have 20XX unfortunately...

 

[MookieRah]

If I had to guess he could, as Marth's grab range makes up for some of CF's speed. I'm hesitant to say whether it is actually 'reactible' for Marth or CF though. At the very least I don't think it's likely that anybody would be able to consistently tech chase perfectly for very long.

 

[FE_Hector]

I know that there's been a bit of discussion before about fthrow techchasing as Marth before, but I have never done any true testing with it.

 

[xXadevs2000Xx]

I see there are a couple threads on Marth tech chase. Just for clarification, does anyone know if Marth can tech chase like 20GX Falcon, i.e. theoretically-guaranteed zero to death reaction tech chases, even beating an immediate Fox shine?

I wonder because part of the pitch 20GX seems to make is that Falcon's speed really makes these outrageous tech chases possible, but Sheik can reaction tech chase too. So obviously if members of the community are going this route for punishes, it'd be nice to know how many of the strongest characters can do this stuff.

I'd try to run a simulation of this myself, but I don't have 20XX unfortunately...

Marth can techchase spacies on reaction below around 45-50% off of fthrow. After that, you CAN'T reach DI down + away and tech away.

So I made a gameplan from there:

0-45% - Chaingrab at center stage OR fthrow/dthrow techchase.

45-58% - Depending on stage, uthrow at the center if not interrupted by a platform AND fthrow/dthrow techchase IN CORNERS (since they can't DI away + tech away to get out)

+58% - Always uthrow. They can't double stick DI out of platform combos now so you can just fish them with uairs.

 

[FE_Hector]

That actually solves the problem we spoke about a few months ago in PPMDs thread. The issue was over-reliance on CGing and technically unsafe uairs. Getting them to 58% and getting one random dtilt and then being completely safe with uthrow uair plat techchases helps a ton.

 

[1000g2g3g4g800999]

Marth can techchase spacies on reaction below around 45-50% off of fthrow. After that, you CAN'T reach DI down + away and tech away.

While true, fthrow won't do knockdown at 0.
And yes, if they're not in a corner dthrow isn't guaranteed.

 

[xXadevs2000Xx]

While true, fthrow won't do knockdown at 0.
And yes, if they're not in a corner dthrow isn't guaranteed.

That was implied, but yes.

 

[Hunybear]

implications have no place in the year 20xx

 

[ETMIV]

While true, fthrow won't do knockdown at 0.
And yes, if they're not in a corner dthrow isn't guaranteed.

Back throw does induce knockback at zero, though, and I see that you can begin inducing knockback with forward throw at around 10%. Is it possible to reaction tech chase using back throw until 10%?

 

[FE_Hector]

Back throw does induce knockback at zero, though, and I see that you can begin inducing knockback with forward throw at around 10%. Is it possible to reaction tech chase using back throw until 10%?

Even if it isn't (didn't test), one dtilt handles that quite nicely.

 

[Sutekh]

Back throw does induce knockback at zero, though, and I see that you can begin inducing knockback with forward throw at around 10%. Is it possible to reaction tech chase using back throw until 10%?

Down-throw knocks down at zero too, and Marth is actionable 29 frames after release vs 38 frames after release on back-throw according to Magus's info sheet. Marth is actionable 18 frames after release on F-throw, so that is still the best option over 10%, but it's better to down-throw vs back-throw below 10%. (All of these numbers are before weight is calculated, but that's irrelevant when comparing them)

 

[Kaoak]

Marth can techchase spacies on reaction below around 45-50% off of fthrow. After that, you CAN'T reach DI down + away and tech away.

I find this very unlikely, are you absolutely sure you can't reach DI down + away with a dtilt?

 

[xXadevs2000Xx]

I find this very unlikely, are you absolutely sure you can't reach DI down + away with a dtilt?

I think my percents were wrong and it might be a little higher.

The point is that there is a percent where Marth can no longer reach DI down + away and tech away.

And even then, dashing in that direction is more of a read and it doesn't let you cover the other options.

 

[ETMIV]

Down-throw knocks down at zero too, and Marth is actionable 29 frames after release vs 38 frames after release on back-throw according to Magus's info sheet. Marth is actionable 18 frames after release on F-throw, so that is still the best option over 10%, but it's better to down-throw vs back-throw below 10%. (All of these numbers are before weight is calculated, but that's irrelevant when comparing them)

Thanks for explaining about down throw. LoZR has told me never to back throw, and that explains why. So it seems like down throw is the best option to tech chase from 0%. But does the 29 frame wait time make pure reaction tech chasing impossible at 0%? That just seems like a pretty big delay compared to the forward throw delay.

Semi-related to that question, I'm also wondering if we know how viable non-regrab follow-ups are for reaction tech chasing. The 20GX guys advocate aerial tech chases on reaction with Falcon. Would throwing out a normal or aerial with Marth allow for a follow-up where a regrab might not work? I'm just trying to imagine ways to extend Marth's tech chase range. If they are possible, normal/aerial reaction tech chase follow-ups would also be more efficient, as they would rack up damage faster and extend a guaranteed combo.

 

[Tablesalt]

I like to dash dance over the other player on missed tech then go on from reaction, if they do tech then I also go on reaction and sound. If I can't get a grab in then I reverse up b.

 

[xXadevs2000Xx]

I like to dash dance over the other player on missed tech then go on from reaction, if they do tech then I also go on reaction and sound. If I can't get a grab in then I reverse up b.

That's a very suboptimal method.

Although it allows you to bait a getup attack, if your opponent times their roll away so that you would react to it as you dash away, you aren't going to reach them.

 

[Klemes]

-Have 20xx (for the good DI and random tech)
-Practice f-throw techchase regrab on FD
-Start with techchasing Cpt. Falcon : his tech animations are very easy to identify, therefore it leaves you free to see and react to the tech way earlier. Regrag him for days.
-Then fox (more ambiguous tech animations)
-Then falco (longer tech-rolls than fox)

 

[Kyomaku]

I'm a little late to this topic, but is there a good way to differentiate the exact techs? I just started learning/focusing on tech chasing and it seems quite annoying when tech chasing fox to differentiate roll forward from tech in place. Roll back is really easy to distingush, though.

Been using this a little as well: http://reactiontraining.herokuapp.com/

Is that one actually useful or should I stick to the aforementioned f-throw > tech-chase practice on FD? And around what frames do I need to be in that minigame for my follow-ups to reach? What's your average result? I tend to be at around 18-22 atm, but I just started so there's a lot of improvement coming. Feels slow for now though.

Thank's for any replies!

 

[Klemes]

I'm a little late to this topic, but is there a good way to differentiate the exact techs? I just started learning/focusing on tech chasing and it seems quite annoying when tech chasing fox to differentiate roll forward from tech in place. Roll back is really easy to distingush, though.

Been using this a little as well: http://reactiontraining.herokuapp.com/

Is that one actually useful or should I stick to the aforementioned f-throw > tech-chase practice on FD? And around what frames do I need to be in that minigame for my follow-ups to reach? What's your average result? I tend to be at around 18-22 atm, but I just started so there's a lot of improvement coming. Feels slow for now though.

Thank's for any replies!

You can watch gifs of fox's tech animations over and over again. If you have any questions about frames and Marth, the man to ask is @Kadano. You could also find out yourself by comparing marth's grab vs tech in place frame data.

Tech chasing fox is HARD though. Usuallly better to focus on uthrow follow ups. fthow and dthrow are most useful at low%, when his options are limited (corner and platforms), and eventually fishing for a dolphin slash kill on tech away / miss tech (tech in = regrab>uthrow>tipper or something, and tech in place is too hard / risky to slash imo).

 

[Hunybear]

Bringing this thread back. Is there any reason to not up throw sheik aside from stage position or something cheesy in the corner? I've started F-throw tech chasing sheik on smaller stages and have had (mixed results)

 

[xXadevs2000Xx]

Bringing this thread back. Is there any reason to not up throw sheik aside from stage position or something cheesy in the corner? I've started F-throw tech chasing sheik on smaller stages and have had (mixed results)

P sure you can't fthrow techcase Sheik if they can DI down and away + tech away. Might be wrong but that's what I recall.

 

[Hunybear]

P sure you can't fthrow techcase Sheik if they can DI down and away + tech away. Might be wrong but that's what I recall.

Yeah you can't catch her full tech away with grab. will test other moves.

 

[bts.mongoose]

I think the only time tech chases are really worth doing is fthrow tech chase vs Falcon past 7-9%. There are other instances where you CAN tech chase, but I believe that your uthrow followups will almost always be more lucrative vs. spacies, sheik, marth, etc.

And as for dthrow tech chasing, to me it seems dubious at best. I'm not certain, but it seems to me that it's nonreactable unless you soft read tech away.

 

[Klemes]

I think the only time tech chases are really worth doing is fthrow tech chase vs Falcon past 7-9%. There are other instances where you CAN tech chase, but I believe that your uthrow followups will almost always be more lucrative vs. spacies, sheik, marth, etc.

And as for dthrow tech chasing, to me it seems dubious at best. I'm not certain, but it seems to me that it's nonreactable unless you soft read tech away.

dthrow fastfallers in the corner so there is no tech away escape.
Haven't you seen 1000000 times dthrow>dtilt>turnaround grab if they tech in ?

 

[Army805]

Marth can techchase spacies on reaction below around 45-50% off of fthrow. After that, you CAN'T reach DI down + away and tech away.

So I made a gameplan from there:

0-45% - Chaingrab at center stage OR fthrow/dthrow techchase.

45-58% - Depending on stage, uthrow at the center if not interrupted by a platform AND fthrow/dthrow techchase IN CORNERS (since they can't DI away + tech away to get out)

+58% - Always uthrow. They can't double stick DI out of platform combos now so you can just fish them with uairs.

How exactly did you get these numbers? Did you test it with TAS (make the TAS react at frame 18) or did you just test it with your own reactions? The marth discord has been telling me that even falco can DI down+away tech away and we can't actually ever get it on reaction. Feels like thats not true but i'm not 100% sure

 

[Klemes]

How exactly did you get these numbers? Did you test it with TAS (make the TAS react at frame 18) or did you just test it with your own reactions? The marth discord has been telling me that even falco can DI down+away tech away and we can't actually ever get it on reaction. Feels like thats not true but i'm not 100% sure

Not gonna argue that it's insanely difficult to get consistently, but BrTalrog gets the reaction techchase on Falco everytime. With PAL Sheik. So I will not believe Marth actually cannot do it. Plus there's always the corner.

Also I happened to see you vs WBallz. Good **** man.

 

[Army805]

Not gonna argue that it's insanely difficult to get consistently, but BrTalrog gets the reaction techchase on Falco everytime. With PAL Sheik. So I will not believe Marth actually cannot do it. Plus there's always the corner.

Also I happened to see you vs WBallz. Good **** man.

Thanks man! Hopefully I can clutch it out next time