Marth Is A Low Tier

[Rain0]

I recently played as Marth a few hours ago, and good god man...

I actually take back what I said about Marth "not being a low tier"

You literally have to be MkLeo in order to play him (Although I can land a few tippers), otherwise... good luck I guess
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But I won't say that Marth is that terrible, sure he sucks but he doesn't suck as much as the Bottom Tiers or few of the Low Tiers

But I will admit that he is competing against Robin or Corrin for the worst Fire Emblem character in the game (In my opinion)

I would go so far as to say that he is worse than Corrin (Also, I played as Corrin a lot recently and She feels much better to play than the series mascot)

 

[Rain0]

stixie

Could you land any tippers or just barely? Because I landed a few and they sometimes feel weak.

 

[stixie]

stixie

Could you land any tippers or just barely? Because I landed a few and they sometimes feel weak.

Well I secondary Marth. I also have him in elite smash.

Marth online is about 100x harder than offline.

Yes, I hit tippers all the time. I also hit side b quite a lot. The problem is good players don't allow you to hit those tippers. Marth gets relegated to trying to whiff punish as his entire strategy. Lucina can jump in someone's face and press buttons but because Marth HAS to land that ftilt/uptilt/smash attack tipper to kill... even if you tipper a lot of moves you won't kill. You have to tipper CERTAIN moves and as stated (even by mkleo) it makes Marth VERY VERY inconsistent. There are many many times if I would have been Lucina I would have taken a stock.

So... bottom line, yes I land tippers all the time. It takes practice on where to stand. I doubt you want to try actually learning Marth but if you do Ultimate Frame Data is a great place to look to see how the tipper boxes are. They'll confuse you sometimes: a move may tipper right next to Marth because of how he swung his sword. The dumb thing though is even PERFECTLY SPACED moves just won't tipper. As I said... inconsistent.

 

[Rain0]

Just used Marth a few hours ago

Yeah, I'll just stick to Roy

I do land some tippers though

 

[Rain0]

Just played Marth again

Yeah, no, he honestly is a Low Tier

Even Mewtwo and Zelda can beat him down

 

[Sucumbio]

Really? I usually have pretty good outcome against Zelda don't fight many Mewtwo tho...

 

[A_Kae]

Have you considered that maybe you're approaching Marth the wrong way here? He can be (luci too) a restrictive character in a number of aspects and not respecting those restrictions enough can get you in a lot of trouble.

You play Roy, I see, and there's a definite mentality difference there that can trip some players up.

Just a thought.

 

[Rain0]

Have you considered that maybe you're approaching Marth the wrong way here?

Probably, I don't know...

You play Roy, I see,

Yeah, I have been since Melee when he was considered an "Inferior" clone

 

[A_Kae]

Are there any videos available of you playing (marth)? Having other people take a look at your game can be a good way to adjust things. I'd be happy to take a look or you could go to a discord or something and ask people there (assuming that's something you would want).

Could get some people to play you too, that can be a big help in finding out if/what you're doing something 'wrong'.

assuming that that's all something you would want to do, idk of course and it's up to you and all.

 

[Rain0]

Are there any videos available of you playing (marth)?

I have a few replays, but I don't know how to upload them to YouTube.

 

[A_Kae]

I think there's an automatic way to upload to youtube, but I've never used it myself. IIRC it's: open the replay > convert to video > go to the video section > post. Something like that anyways. You can also convert to video and copy the file from the sd card and upload it more manually. That's a bit less convenient though.

Been a while since I've uploaded any replays in any fashion, so I don't know exactly how/what's best. Shouldn't be too hard though.

Edit: did a little searching and found this: https://gaming.stackexchange.com/qu...play-videos-directly-to-youtube/353519#353519 which should be what you need

 

[Rain0]

I think there's an automatic way to upload to youtube, but I've never used it myself. IIRC it's: open the replay > convert to video > go to the video section > post. Something like that anyways. You can also convert to video and copy the file from the sd card and upload it more manually. That's a bit less convenient though.

Been a while since I've uploaded any replays in any fashion, so I don't know exactly how/what's best. Shouldn't be too hard though.

Edit: did a little searching and found this: https://gaming.stackexchange.com/qu...play-videos-directly-to-youtube/353519#353519 which should be what you need

Thanks, hope it works

 

[StrangeKitten]

I'm always shocked at how bad Marth feels to use. I have pretty solid fundamentals that allow me to do well enough with any sword character... and then Marth stands in stark contrast, feeling really weak. I think it's the combination of issues others have already mentioned: sour spots doing very little damage, tippers being really hard to land, and so many characters outspacing him. In theory, it feels odd to call him a low tier when Lucina is easily at the top of high tier if not better, but in practice, that's honestly how they feel. MkLeo not being able to do well with Marth due to his issues tells me it's mostly a problem with Marth himself and isn't much on me.

 

[A_Kae]

I'm always shocked at how bad Marth feels to use. I have pretty solid fundamentals that allow me to do well enough with any sword character... and then Marth stands in stark contrast, feeling really weak. I think it's the combination of issues others have already mentioned: sour spots doing very little damage, tippers being really hard to land, and so many characters outspacing him. In theory, it feels odd to call him a low tier when Lucina is easily at the top of high tier if not better, but in practice, that's honestly how they feel. MkLeo not being able to do well with Marth due to his issues tells me it's mostly a problem with Marth himself and isn't much on me.

I don't think looking at Leo's Marth is a good idea; he's said in the past that he just doesn't want to put the effort in to make things work there, not that it's impossible. Pretty sure Marth was high-ish on his most recent tier list or at least the last one I saw from him.

Just wanted to mention that since I think leo has come up a couple times in this thread and often in Marth discussions elsewhere too.

Edit: while I'm posting here...

I think it's a good point you make that Marth "feels bad" to use. Irrespective of strength or tiers, he just doesn't. But feeling low tier isn't low tier and I think the successes that some players are finding in their areas points to that.

I don't want to end up repeating myself too much and it's like the middle of the night here so I'll stop now.

 

[stixie]

And db's first three hits are actually weight-independent knockback, so that doesn't matter.

I didn’t actually know that.

 

[Rain0]

I unfortunately ran into a few issues when getting my Marth clips up onto YouTube.

 

[A_Kae]

stixie replying to my post about db consistency reminded me of a little project I did a while ago that might be of relevance/interest to this thread. I wanted to know how reliable it is, how often real players could land tipper 4f in real tournament matches. Our own perception of these kinds of things is often skewed.

So I opened a bunch of recorded matches and watched them at double speed looking for uses of dancing blade and recorded how often the tipper was hit and how often it wasn't.

50% (roughly)

The sample size wasn't very large - about 45 uses total - so the results may be considered suspect. My (very simple and informal) methodology could probably be justifiably challenged too. But it's good to have some sort of real-world, practical look at these things so I thought I'd share since I just remembered about it.

 

[stixie]

stixie replying to my post about db consistency reminded me of a little project I did a while ago that might be of relevance/interest to this thread. I wanted to know how reliable it is, how often real players could land tipper 4f in real tournament matches. Our own perception of these kinds of things is often skewed.

So I opened a bunch of recorded matches and watched them at double speed looking for uses of dancing blade and recorded how often the tipper was hit and how often it wasn't.

50% (roughly)

The sample size wasn't very large - about 45 uses total - so the results may be considered suspect. My (very simple and informal) methodology could probably be justifiably challenged too. But it's good to have some sort of real-world, practical look at these things so I thought I'd share since I just remembered about it.

Now do Roy

 

[A_Kae]

Now do Roy

...

oh all right then, just for fun

Spoiler: source videos

SWT Championship Winners Quarters - ProtoBanham (Lucina) Vs. Kola (Roy) SSBU Ultimate Tournament

The Smash World Tour Championship is a Smash Ultimate Tournament featuring the best players in the world. Top players qualified through several events to com...

www.youtube.com

4o4 Smash Night 44 GRAND FINALS - Kola (Roy) Vs. Mugen (Roy) SSBU Ultimate Tournament

Streamed Live at: https://twitch.tv/vgbootcamphttps://smash.gg/tournament/4o4-smash-night-44/details4o4 Esports Arcade6035 Peachtree Rd Suite C-220Atlanta, G...

www.youtube.com

SWT Championship Winners Semis - MkLeo (Byleth) Vs. Kola (Roy) SSBU Ultimate Tournament

The Smash World Tour Championship is a Smash Ultimate Tournament featuring the best players in the world. Top players qualified through several events to com...

www.youtube.com

Cardd's Basement Losers Finals - Fatality (Captain Falcon) Vs. Kola (Roy) SSBU Ultimate Tournament

Streamed Live at: https://twitch.tv/vgbootcamphttps://smash.gg/tournament/cardd-s-basement-500-pot-bonus-ft-kola-moxi-fatality-2/details4o4 Esports Arcade603...

www.youtube.com

SSC Fall Fest Losers Quarters - Light (Fox) Vs. Kola (Roy) SSBU Ultimate Tournament

Super Smash Con Fall Fest is a huge Smash Ultimate Tournament in Dulles, VA. This Super Smash Bros Ultimate tournament has the best players in the world! Che...

www.youtube.com

CEO 2021 GRAND FINALS - Glutonny (Wario) Vs. Kola (Roy) SSBU Ultimate Tournament

CEO 2021 is a Super Smash Bros Ultimate Tournament in Orlando, FloridaStreamed Live at: http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcampBrackets: https://smash.gg/ceo#SmashUl...

www.youtube.com

All those are of kola and I didn't want to just be looking at the absolute top of Roy (not that ded is all that high skill) so after those I looked at a few more non-kola matches:

4o4 Smash Night 32 - Element (Roy) Vs. Eleven (Shulk) SSBU Ultimate Tournament

Streamed Live at: https://twitch.tv/vgbootcamphttps://smash.gg/tournament/4o4-smash-night-32/details4o4 Esports Arcade6035 Peachtree Rd Suite C-220Atlanta, G...

www.youtube.com

Tam Invitational 2021 - Goblin (Roy) Vs. Bonilla (Roy, ROB) SSBU Ultimate Tournament

The Tam Invitational is a Smash Ultimate Tournament in Mexico. This Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Tournament is a 3-day event with the best players from Mexico ...

www.youtube.com

ULTIMATE WANTED 3 Top 12 - Flow (Roy) Vs. iStudying (Greninja) SSBU Ultimate Tournament

Ultimate Wanted 3 is a Super Smash Bros Ultimate Tournament held in FranceStreamed Live at: https://twitch.tv/vgbootcampBracket: https://smash.gg/tournament/...

www.youtube.com

30 uses in total, with 20 hits and 10 failures, or a 66.6667% success rate. A bit lower than I would have thought, I imagine more data would probably up that number some, but it's not too far outside expectations. I would have guessed around 75%.

also the possibility is that i screwed up the counting once or twice but that wouldn't change the result much.

but of course, a number like that doesn't begin describe the difference in effort between the two, i.e. 'mashing' and 'really really hard'. The effort on Marth's part is like a 1000x more and killing 15% or so earlier doesn't justify it being orders of magnitude harder. The relative tuning on these moves is... shocking.

 

[Rain0]

I just used Marth for a few days now.

It's like a 50/50 chance to get the Tipper or his moves just not landing anything at all (Not even the Sour Spots).

 

[A_Kae]

Meant to make this post closer to when it happened, but some stuff happened and I forgot until now.

About two weeks ago, Ignaize placed 49th at Genesis 8 with solo Marth. We were talking before a little about (super)major results being the real showing of a character's potential, and while this is only one data point, it's a significant one nonetheless and a very strong result. It's the sort of evidence of 'practicality' that's been missing and at one of the biggest tournaments in a long time too. A shame more of the matches weren't recorded though.

Discuss? I'd be interested to hear what you all think of this.

 

[Rain0]

I don't know who Ignaize is, but he honestly knows what he is doing.