• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Marth Counters?

Synch

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 29, 2006
Messages
29
Location
CA
A good Falco's pretty good at killing Marth. :) (You probably have to SHL spam to get past the disjointed hitbox, though, then follow up with some sort of combo.)
 

technomancer

Smash Champion
Joined
May 17, 2006
Messages
2,053
Sheik and Falco are the accepted ones. CF, Ganondorf, and Doc all go both ways but you can ***** if you're good. Use teh search function!
 

dark-war-cloud

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 23, 2006
Messages
247
Location
Missouri
i think falco does best against him because all you have to do is shl spam.... and piller the hell out of him...
 

Pye

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Messages
496
Location
Montreal. PM me if you're on the island! I need op
Falco because of his incredible projectile that Marth can't simply swipe down like he can Samus' missiles, plus his anti-shieldgrab maneuvers (pillaring. Marth relies quite heavily on grabbing, so not beeing able to shieldgrab is extremely limiting). I've never considered Falco a TRUE counter to Marth because Marth can zero-to-death chaingrab a Falco (it's tough to do, but it's there).

Sheik is also a widely accepted Marth counter, but you need to be a good Sheik. You need to be able to space your aerials as not to get sheildgrabbed. Sheik can also combo Marth very nicely. Sheik also has an "un-swipeable" projectile. Needles completely **** Marth's recovery, since he relies on his momentum to carry him back, and even a single Needle stops that completely.
 

JBM falcon08

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 24, 2006
Messages
4,374
Location
glenwood iowa
easily sheik, then to follow sometimes cfalcon, but its between him and the space animals. lol at those who said gdorf, u can uair the **** out of him soo easily and its pretty much inescapable(if thats a word). i'd say in this order

sheik
cfalcon/falco/fox
doc
peach
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
shiek isnt that bad... its fairly even actually.

if we are talking pure counters, marth has none. character advantages is a whole other subject.

as far as ive seen falco and fox do the best vs marth.

falco's SHL is very annoying to many characters, but he can also shine combo you for an easy 60-80%. marth does have a few advantages over him though like better priority (which falco can try to use SHL to get around) and marth's grab game is a lot better.

fox has the speed, and marth has laggy moves. simple as that. fox also combos marth fairly well. at low levels of play marth would win, but as you get higher up, fox keeps getting the adv. try not to stay predictable.

for shiek: she has a low range, but fairly fast fair (say that 10 times fast!). She cannot chainthrow you, but can use her dthrow to set up combos. Learn to DI her throws and tilts to make it harder for her to combo. you out prioritize her in the air, which is most of her game, without her air attacks she is left with a good dsmash, needles, and dash attack. shieldgrab her dash attack if u see it coming, and space yourself out of the dsmash. look out for tilts though cause they set up safely into her airs.

falcon: he has horrible priority and range. you have exelent priority and range. the only thing he has on you is speed and comboability. First thing you do vs a good falcon is ban FD. that is the best stage for falcon. after that it leaves PS which is annoying in the starting form, but on the other forms he is kinda weak. Also, DL is a good stage for falco too because of the length and platforms you cant abuse. any other stage falcon doesnt have much of a chance because he wont have room for his combos. keep to the air, and keep the pressure on. watch out for DD, it often leads to either grabs, nairs, or sideb's, all of which can lead into a combo if u arent careful.

doc: Maybe its because ive never played a descent doc, but i cant see a thing he has on marth. marth is faster, better range, beter grab game, better combos. the only thing i can see doc doing is caping your recovery, but it would be insanely hard because of the tip of your sword hitting him.
 

flaco

The Terminator
Joined
Nov 29, 2005
Messages
3,105
Location
Springfield Mass
Jesus Christ next time search there is already a thread of the same question and the answer is fox falco sheik thats it next time search
 

JBM falcon08

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 24, 2006
Messages
4,374
Location
glenwood iowa
Sveet, this is true what you and all, but in order to beat a GOOD/EXCELLENT sheik, you've got to have mad mindgames and be very unpredictable. Sheik sets up marth in soo many combos that her name should just say "marth counter" bc she is one easily. falcon your completely right, he is not much of a threat unless he gets a grab/>b/nair on you and starts a combo, but isn't that like every other character? but out of the space animals i'd easily have to say fox is more of a favorable/soft counter pick against marth more than falco just bc shine spikes **** marth. marth is probably top 5 easiest to shine spike off of the edge because his recovery pattern is one path basically and fox players abuse that, and the fact he has his falling uair/usmashes etc.

sheik
fox
falco/falcon
peach
doc
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
Sveet, this is true what you and all, but in order to beat a GOOD/EXCELLENT sheik, you've got to have mad mindgames and be very unpredictable. Sheik sets up marth in soo many combos that her name should just say "marth counter" bc she is one easily. falcon your completely right, he is not much of a threat unless he gets a grab/>b/nair on you and starts a combo, but isn't that like every other character? but out of the space animals i'd easily have to say fox is more of a favorable/soft counter pick against marth more than falco just bc shine spikes **** marth. marth is probably top 5 easiest to shine spike off of the edge because his recovery pattern is one path basically and fox players abuse that, and the fact he has his falling uair/usmashes etc.

sheik
fox
falco/falcon
peach
doc
i disagree with just about everything u said. First of all, dont u need good mindgames and unpredictability to beat ANY good player? With the falcon thing, it is very hard to get those moves off unless u fall for his mind games. basically, what im trying to tell you is where they are going to try to pressure you and help you see through it. also, fox has a horrible time trying to shine spike you. any good falco does better than a good fox vs marth. next time u go to a big tournament, play fox and try to shine spike a descent marth. u will get faired the moment u get near them. marth is easily one of the HARDEST characters to shine spike because every one of him moves has a disjoined hitbox. foxes wont even do it because they know it is one of the riskiest things to do vs marth. if they get hit, they give marth a free edgeguard which everyone knows is the worst place to be vs a marth.
 

flaco

The Terminator
Joined
Nov 29, 2005
Messages
3,105
Location
Springfield Mass
it is true you do need mindgames but you need to go to torny to learn mindgames you don't learn mindgames by just playing the computer or your friends go to torny's and you will learn mindgames
 

JBM falcon08

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 24, 2006
Messages
4,374
Location
glenwood iowa
i disagree with just about everything u said. First of all, dont u need good mindgames and unpredictability to beat ANY good player? With the falcon thing, it is very hard to get those moves off unless u fall for his mind games. basically, what im trying to tell you is where they are going to try to pressure you and help you see through it. also, fox has a horrible time trying to shine spike you. any good falco does better than a good fox vs marth. next time u go to a big tournament, play fox and try to shine spike a descent marth. u will get faired the moment u get near them. marth is easily one of the HARDEST characters to shine spike because every one of him moves has a disjoined hitbox. foxes wont even do it because they know it is one of the riskiest things to do vs marth. if they get hit, they give marth a free edgeguard which everyone knows is the worst place to be vs a marth.
Foxes have problems with marth players? lol i need to get F&F in here and let you know that falco has a much harder time with marth than fox does. Look at KDJ and Ken. Ken is well known for being able to dominate foxes with his playing style but hasn't he been beat the past 2 or 3 mlgs by KDJ's fox/sheik? Ken is still and will be the best guy in smash and you say that fox and sheik aren't favorable or a counter? You go to a big tourney with pros like them and realize that anyone above marth on the tier list is counted as favorable/counterHave you ever seen the japanese play? go watch some vids of thunder(koto) vs Masashi(tama) and watch how masashi gets shinespiked plenty of times and its done so easily when you put pressure on the marth while he's near or off of the edge.

not only that, but foxes just **** marths with their uthrow to uair chained together. it is in fox's favor to win that match. falco is good yes, but any good marth player like you said urself can get falco/fox off of the edge and kill him with good edgeguarding, but then you have to judge and notice that fox has a much better recovery than falco does plus being edgeguarded by marth leads to wall/edge techs.

i'm not johning by any means nor am i a noob at all. if we were to take a poll which would be interesting to see is what the majority of marth's believe marth's hardest matchup is.
 

illboyzeus

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
855
Location
Beyond the Bounds
I'd have to say Falco simply for the SHL. If you cant powershield it your bound to take damage and it leads into so much. plus pillaring and falco's ability to combo a marth, its a uphill battle. Marth can chaingrab and has priority but thats only if the falco makes a mistake to get into the marth's comfort zone. I main Falco and only time I have trouble against Marth is when I become overly agressive and stop SHL'ing. Other than that its a battle in Falco's favor.
 

Nike

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 14, 2006
Messages
170
Location
Chicago, IL
i don't know where u guys get that falco counters marth. if anything it's an even matchup, that is totally stage dependent. IMO marth has the advantage against falco on YS, battlefield and FoD. His sword just swipes through the platforms. On larger stages like FD, PS and DL64 if the falco shl's the **** out of marth he has the advantage. For all your talk of shl and shine to spike combos (that's right it's called shine to spike not pillaring for all those who have been using it wrong) u forget falco's sh**** recovery, marth's insane edgeguarding, tips and chaingrabbing.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
Foxes have problems with marth players? lol i need to get F&F in here and let you know that falco has a much harder time with marth than fox does.
F&F is one of my old friends :D we used to go to school together. i dunno what he will say, but i still say marth has a horrible time with falco.

i agree its stage dependant, but im not going to get into my ideas on stages. falco can combo marth very very easily. lasers force marth to approach from above, where he is the weakest, instantly putting him at a disadvantage. If marth can get a grab out he can start a good combo, but it is very hard to get that.

i agree shiek does well against marth, but i still that it fairly minor advantage compared to falco's. but what do i know? i got 2 stocked 2x by 5150's shiek :/
 

Mr.C

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 22, 2004
Messages
3,512
fox, falco, sheik

**** teh marth bad

not so much sheik when u get to be pro
 

JBM falcon08

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 24, 2006
Messages
4,374
Location
glenwood iowa
Yeah i agree with u sveet and Mr. C. if i were to list any person who mained marth who had problems with characters my guess is that they would list falcon, sheik, fox, and falco in no order.

I guess i never really thought about it that way how falco has the advantage and makes marth approach from the air which is alot harder to do than what falco can easily do to him. Idk though, i've never played a Good/pro fox so i don't know much about that, but from experience i can say that i don't have so much trouble with fox or falco, but falco actually more so. So basically i'm contradicting myself but i can only go by what others say as pro experience saying that fox is the harder character.
 

Mr.C

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 22, 2004
Messages
3,512
Id also like to add Falco ***** marth for free on FoD, because of MJN's post.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
lol the only fox ive had a real problem with was CunningKitsune's... he ***** me so hard... just thinking about it makes me want to cry... 4 stocked, 4 times... i havent been beat that bad since my first time playing a competant human (ei, a bunch of pros at MLG chicago), but even then i was taking off stocks T_T
 

NJzFinest

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 12, 2004
Messages
8,861
Location
NYC
F lol i need to get F&F in here and let you know that falco has a much harder time with marth than fox does.
<3
F&F is one of my old friends :D we used to go to school together.
<3

The name is NJzFinest guys >.>

Counter = A ONE SIDED MATCHUP

Okay, so the the closest thing to a counter for Marth is Sheik. Most people saying Sheik completely ***** Marth, others disagree, but nevertheless, she's a great character to use against Marth.

Fox and Falco vs Marth is a pretty close matchup. Fox vs Marth is one of the closest matchups in the game when considering every stage advantage. Falco has a better time than fox. I think the space animals overall have a slight advantage. But let's not forget there's people that people do pick up and use Marth just to fight space animals.

Donkey Kong is said to be even with Marth. I'm not completely sure why...NEO said DK vs Marth is even, and me and Mew2King thought it was a joke. After M2K faced Captain Jack, he told me that NEO is right. Bum (an amazing DK player, one of the best if you didn't know) has shown me some nice DK vs Marth strats. I'm not completely convinced that DK does well, but I'm just sticking it out there.

Link does well vs Marth. Link vs Marth is pretty even, I think this is pretty well known. And....NO, it's not because Ken lost to Aniki ****it.


I think that's about it. Everyone else has gets ***** by Marth (not just low tiers like Roy, but even characters like Mario and Ganondorf) or they simply has the disadvantage (like CFalcon who can pull of some beastly combos...but has a hard *** time landing them and getting setups).
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
u listed ganon as a char that gets ***** by marth, but that is not true. at one point he was considered even with marth due to range and advantage when exchanging blows. i dont agree with whoever said that (i think it was in a guide for ganon or marth), but i do think a good ganon (maybe... uhh... eddie??) can still do pretty well against marth.

and thank you NJ'zFinest (how do u have that name? isnt there better players in NJ??? (no offence(plz dont kill me))) for explaining the matchup from that angle, it was what i was trying to say the whole time i guess i just didnt say it well enough. btw, why are u never on the hub anymore!?!?!? and did u get a wii??
 

NJzFinest

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 12, 2004
Messages
8,861
Location
NYC
"u listed ganon as a char that gets ***** by marth, but that is not true. at one point he was considered even with marth due to range and advantage when exchanging blows. i dont agree with whoever said that (i think it was in a guide for ganon or marth), but i do think a good ganon (maybe... uhh... eddie??) can still do pretty well against marth.
Nah. I understand what you mean though. I used to think Ganon had a good time holding his own, but, IF the Marth player knows what he's doing, he'll be gay and outspace everything hit Ganon tries to land.
(how do u have that name? isnt there better players in NJ??? (no offence(plz dont kill me)))
LOL, haha. I never said I was NJ'zFinest smash bros melee player >.>
I could be the best SSB64 and Soul Caliber player here though.

But, the name is mainly for repping my state ^.^
btw, why are u never on the hub anymore!?!?!? and did u get a wii??
I've been really busy with school work and college stuff >.> I come on like...once a week, but it'll change soon.
I "kinda" got a Wii. I bought it, played Zelda for awhile, and then my parents where like "WTF, it's not Christmas yet" and hide it from me :(
Then I bought the Zelda: TP official guide and ruined the ending for myself...hehehe
 

Plairnkk

Smash Legend
Joined
Jan 18, 2006
Messages
10,243
marth has no real counters, period.

sheik does well against marth, about as well as fox or falco. these matchups aren't "counters" though, they just happen to be the only matchups that marth isn't at an incredible advantage. marth players aren't used to that.
 

JBM falcon08

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 24, 2006
Messages
4,374
Location
glenwood iowa
^ same goes for sheik players though, but i guess it isn't as bad as people who main fox and falco who don't have to worry about people counterpicking since there is no character to cp them.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
marth has no real counters, period.

sheik does well against marth, about as well as fox or falco. these matchups aren't "counters" though, they just happen to be the only matchups that marth isn't at an incredible advantage. marth players aren't used to that.
same thing we said like 10 posts ago basically. although, it isnt that marth doesnt have an "incredible advantage" that marth players arent used to losing, but marth does get disadvantaged. Marth's main weakness is the lagtime after his moves. look at his fsmash. u have like an HOUR before u recover from that attack. anyone who is descent will just bait the fsmash and punish u to hell. that is why marth has a hard time with some of the faster characters.

in the end though, i think that his priority and comboability, in the hands of someone who can read the opponent, is completely unstopable. I believe this is why Ken and Azen have been on the top so much, because of their great prediction skills.

this is also one of my main reasons for having falco being the best char to beat marth. His lasers out prioritize marth's sword, which takes away his ability to stay on the offensive, forcing the marth to attack at a disadvantage or go defensive. Falco has EXCELENT anti-defensive tactics (pillaring shields anyone?) and even better combos once he gets that shine off. Honestly i think falco has better (and more damaging) combos than marth has on him, and the only real advantage that marth has is edgeguarding, but it is very hard to get that falco off the edge and into a favorable position.
 

7ak

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 12, 2006
Messages
442
Location
Brawlisbad, Pakistan.
I always thought Doc was pretty good against Marth and people always said, "No way, Marth is a Doc counter." Now I see some people actually agree with me.

I also think Marth doesn't have any real "counters"................a very smart/technical Marth is just as deadly as a smart/technical Fox, Falco, or Sheik. In my opinion a really good Sheik does have a slight advantage against Marth.............you've got to really play your smartest/best to beat Sheik as Marth.
 

Nike

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 14, 2006
Messages
170
Location
Chicago, IL
"No way, Marth is a Doc counter."
they're right. sword slashes right through pills and marth outranges doc so bad.

I also think Marth doesn't have any real "counters"................a very smart/technical Marth is just as deadly as a smart/technical Fox, Falco, or Sheik. In my opinion a really good Sheik does have a slight advantage against Marth.............you've got to really play your smartest/best to beat Sheik as Marth.
agreed. people misuse the word counter alot when talking about smash. advantages are what most characters have against each other.
 

Virgilijus

Nonnulli Laskowski praestant
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 27, 2006
Messages
14,387
Location
Sunny Bromsgrove
same thing we said like 10 posts ago basically. although, it isnt that marth doesnt have an "incredible advantage" that marth players arent used to losing, but marth does get disadvantaged. Marth's main weakness is the lagtime after his moves. look at his fsmash. u have like an HOUR before u recover from that attack. anyone who is descent will just bait the fsmash and punish u to hell. that is why marth has a hard time with some of the faster characters.

in the end though, i think that his priority and comboability, in the hands of someone who can read the opponent, is completely unstopable. I believe this is why Ken and Azen have been on the top so much, because of their great prediction skills.

this is also one of my main reasons for having falco being the best char to beat marth. His lasers out prioritize marth's sword, which takes away his ability to stay on the offensive, forcing the marth to attack at a disadvantage or go defensive. Falco has EXCELENT anti-defensive tactics (pillaring shields anyone?) and even better combos once he gets that shine off. Honestly i think falco has better (and more damaging) combos than marth has on him, and the only real advantage that marth has is edgeguarding, but it is very hard to get that falco off the edge and into a favorable position.
Agreed on basically all aspects. All of the characters that typically play favorably against Marth are faster characters (running, jumping). And because of Marth's lag on some moves, a good player can capitalize and pull of a great combo and possibly get you off the edge and kill you. But good players like Ken and Azen can predict very well what a faster player will do to take advantage. By doing this, they almost completely take away the speed advantage (not to mention the mind games that go with it).

Personally, I play a wicked Falco who is quite a bit faster than I and while right now he is significantly better than me in skill I can tell that because I have played him so much I have begun to predict his attacks. While he still beats me, he notices it's getting harder and harder to do so even though his Falco can jump circles around me...as of now.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Agreed on basically all aspects. All of the characters that typically play favorably against Marth are faster characters (running, jumping). And because of Marth's lag on some moves, a good player can capitalize and pull of a great combo and possibly get you off the edge and kill you.
you could just choose not to use those laggy moves. Marth beats characters by sword and dash camping until he can grab, generally. Characters that can shoot things the sword can't stop (fox/falco/sheik) need to be dealt with differently. For sheik, you sword camp less, and dash camp more, and avoid needles. For falco and fox, you grab them and they die anyway, so just wait for them to land next to you or something and grab. Luckily for marth, MLG banned all the stages he sucks at, and doesn't let you ban neutral from a set, aka all the stages marth is good at. Marth can't be chaingrabbed or death combo'd, which sheik fox and falco all suffer from. Marth can grab at least sheik and fox out of every attack they have except sheik's chain, which isn't getting used anyway. I'm not sure about falco.

Marth has no bad matches, only even ones (sheik, himself, maybe falco) and good ones (the other 23 characters)
 

AS Money

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 22, 2005
Messages
1,224
Location
UP-MI
Marth can grab at least sheik and fox out of every attack they have except sheik's chain, which isn't getting used anyway. I'm not sure about falco.
for fox and falco l cansel shine marth cant grab and when you sheild dope ***** it and breaks it but thats only an exeptional falco
 

Mr.C

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 22, 2004
Messages
3,512
Marth can cg on one stage... FD

to bad fox , falco and sheik also **** FD =(
to bad for marth
idk marth is very simple for me to beat
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
Marth has no bad matches, only even ones (sheik, himself, maybe falco) and good ones (the other 23 characters)
i disagree. If Marth is such a godlike character that there are only 2 characters that go EVEN with him, and he beats everyone else, then why is he not in the top tier?

for the reasons i stated above i beleive that falco has advantage over marth.

For fox and shiek it is a little less defined, and much more open to opinion, so i will not bring that argument back up.
 
Top Bottom