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SCORPADORPMango just beat Armada's Marth with Mario 4 stocks vs 4 stocks. Hmm...
Never claimed that. I said his best finisher usually requires a read. But I assumed you meant killing at a reasonable percent.Killing Marth doesn't require a read.
Not that rough really, unless you are close to ledge. Even with a nearby platform, you have to rinse/repeat little combos like that until he's dead. Lots of effort means not super reliable (human error factor). Marth can usually DI the bair appropriately and not be in such a bad spot.Grab combos into nair which puts Marth in a rough
Ehh, that's a stretch. At mid percent + good DI (no one misses DI on a throw with an animation that long), marth is high up enough to have several recovery options.Marth offstage at mid percents to basically kill him 1/3 of the time if you know how to intercept his recovery.
True, but marth has a ton of moves that fit this description.And Mario's f-smash is borderline spammable in the matchup.
I realize that, agreed.you have to realize that Mario isn't completely limited to playing like a Sheik would.
That's really only when Mario has a decent frame advantage because marth over-committed in neutral. Marth's aerial game is definitely superior.You have better aerial options in neutral in some regards, because you have a lower, faster short hop.
Marth can often pivot shield stop into grab this, or reverse up-b OoS when it would land an edgeguard opportunity. Shield DI helps this.You can SH nair cross up Marth's shield,
True, sh bair is pretty sick.you can SH bair to zone with less fear of Marth getting under you or punishing your landing.
Yeah it's true that you will be killing Marth at pretty high percents, considering Mario is not Ganon. But the reverse is true, in that Marth generally will not kill you below 130-145% if your DI is solid.Never claimed that. I said his best finisher usually requires a read. But I assumed you meant killing at a reasonable percent.
Yeah but still being able to combo guaranteed from a throw is more than Marth has against our floaty little man.Not that rough really, unless you are close to ledge. Even with a nearby platform, you have to rinse/repeat little combos like that until he's dead. Lots of effort means not super reliable (human error factor). Marth can usually DI the bair appropriately and not be in such a bad spot.
Fair enough. But again, having a high knockback throw is a boon vs Marth. Marth is good at damaging us, but bad at killing us. This is where the matchup can swing in our favor, in closing out stocks.Ehh, that's a stretch. At mid percent + good DI (no one misses DI on a throw with an animation that long), marth is high up enough to have several recovery options.
Marth doesn't have a single spammable move that can kill, except nair, which depends on terrible DI to even force us to up-b back to the stage, and u-tilt, which is generally telegraphed and avoidable, except on FD. D-tilt is spammable af, but doesn't lead to a kill commonly.True, but marth has a ton of moves that fit this description.
I feel like fighting Mario out of shield isn't particularly good. Marth wants to keep characters with good close range games at an arm's length where his sweetspots are. Anyway, the bottom line is that Mario's aerials are probably better than Sheik's in neutral, at least for winning exchanges. Obviously, Sheik's aerials connecting tend to be more profitable though.Marth can often pivot shield stop into grab this, or reverse up-b OoS when it would land an edgeguard opportunity. Shield DI helps this.
Yeah it's true that you will be killing Marth at pretty high percents, considering Mario is not Ganon. But the reverse is true, in that Marth generally will not kill you below 130-145% if your DI is solid.
Marth doesn't have a single spammable move that can kill, except nair, which depends on terrible DI to even force us to up-b back to the stage, and u-tilt, which is generally telegraphed and avoidable, except on FD. D-tilt is spammable af, but doesn't lead to a kill commonly.
Yeah but still being able to combo guaranteed from a throw is more than Marth has against our floaty little man.
Again I agree marth doesn't have super reliable KO setups but his huge advantage in neutral trumps all these points imo.Marth doesn't have a single spammable move that can kill, except nair, which depends on terrible DI to even force us to up-b back to the stage, and u-tilt, which is generally telegraphed and avoidable, except on FD. D-tilt is spammable af, but doesn't lead to a kill commonly.
Again, Mario will lose neutral too much for this to be a deciding factor imo.="ChivalRuse, post: 21118932, member: 64610"]Fair enough. But again, having a high knockback throw is a boon vs Marth. Marth is good at damaging us, but bad at killing us. This is where the matchup can swing in our favor, in closing out stocks.
Well there's always fair OoS too, which is always money when spaced, just didn't mention it because it's obvious. Marth doesn't always want a tipper for aerials, more follow-ups come from maximum spacing without tipper + fade back when necessary. Not so sure about that sheik statement.I feel like fighting Mario out of shield isn't particularly good. Marth wants to keep characters with good close range games at an arm's length where his sweetspots are. Anyway, the bottom line is that Mario's aerials are probably better than Sheik's in neutral, at least for winning exchanges. Obviously, Sheik's aerials connecting tend to be more profitable though.
Caping his up b isn't too hard, you just need to force out an option or two of his flow chart recovery by shooting projectiles and/or grabbing the ledge. after hes forced to recover high with an up b, you can drop down turnaround cape his up b and kill him with good timing. It takes practice but is marios version of the marth killer (with more swag).ledge camp -> punish is a very strong option in this MU, and totally counters late fair forcing them to adapt and use different strategies.
For caping the sword, you need to stand well far back from the edge and almost tipper his sword tip.