Mario Vs. Marth Discussion

[UpBforVictory]

Being a Mario main there's always one thing that bugs me, Marth, i'm not sure to whether this is still Mario's worst match-up coming out of Melee, but it sure does seem like it because I still do terrible against Marths, so I need some help, what exactly are good options against a Marth player? (I could just go Game and Watch or Falcon, but I'd like to play as my "MAIN main.")

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

It's mario's worse MU. And things have changed since the last patch. Before the patch the MU was around 7:3 Marth's favor. I think with Dair toned being down, the recovery game being weaker(it's still solid) and fireball changes, it might even be harder now.

Read the Mario MU thread for some insight on the MU. I did a pretty good write up on this.

Also, I feel like most marth's aren't going to be helpful, inreguards to information on this, since most of the ones on smashboards, think it's even or in Mario's favor. Lol'd.

 

[UpBforVictory]

It's mario's worse MU. And things have changed since the last patch. Before the patch the MU was around 7:3 Marth's favor. I think with Dair toned being down, the recovery game being weaker(it's still solid) and fireball changes, it might even be harder now.

Read the Mario MU thread for some insight on the MU. I did a pretty good write up on this.

Also, I feel like most marth's aren't going to be helpful, inreguards to information on this, since most of the ones on smashboards, think it's even or in Mario's favor. Lol'd.

It kind of goes both ways for me, I'll either decimate a Marth, get my ass handed to me or come back from a 3-stock lead.

 

[CyberZixx]

7-3 for Marth in 3.5? Maybe in melee. In 3.02, I feel Mario had slight advantage. I think Mario players really overate this match up in particular. Mario might lose now, but I can't see it being too bad.

 

[UpBforVictory]

7-3 for Marth in 3.5? Maybe in melee. In 3.02, I feel Mario had slight advantage. I think Mario players really overate this match up in particular. Mario might lose now, but I can't see it being too bad.

This match-up is still pretty tough, though I don't think it's nearly as bad as Melee.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

7-3 for Marth in 3.5? Maybe in melee. In 3.02, I feel Mario had slight advantage. I think Mario players really overate this match up in particular. Mario might lose now, but I can't see it being too bad.

There is a reason there are no videos of this MU. But I'll let the marth players think what they want.

 

[CyberZixx]

There is a reason there are no videos of this MU. But I'll let the marth players think what they want.

I don't see how Mario can lose so solidly when Marth only has fair in that match up. Mario can keep him out and bait him with Fireballs. Mario combos marth real hard, the edgeguard is free for Mario. Marth conversily can't combo mario as well due to his weight and the edgeguard was not easy in 3.02. Mario just has more options to rely on and gets punished less with mistakes. Why do you feel it was so bad in 3.02?

With the change in Fireballs and recovery on mario, that should open up marth's movement options more and allow him to actually kill mario off stage. So I can see an arguement there, but i'll sustain from 3.5 talk, as it is so new.

 

[UpBforVictory]

I don't see how Mario can lose so solidly when Marth only has fair in that match up. Mario can keep him out and bait him with Fireballs. Mario combos marth real hard, the edgeguard is free for Mario. Marth conversily can't combo mario as well due to his weight and the edgeguard was not easy in 3.02. Mario just has more options to rely on and gets punished less with mistakes. Why do you feel it was so bad in 3.02?

With the change in Fireballs and recovery on mario, that should open up marth's movement options more and allow him to actually kill mario off stage. So I can see an arguement there, but i'll sustain from 3.5 talk, as it is so new.

I always take out Marths by spiking them out of Dolphin Slash with Fair.

 

[CyberZixx]

@ UpBforVictory That is pretty flashy. vs his upB as mario i'd just WD back to grab ledge if marth sweetspots, and then when he trys to o high for a mix up, free cape. Even 3.5 Marth is helpless off stage vs this character. He gotta he real tricky to get back, or the mario gotta mess up.

 

[UpBforVictory]

@ UpBforVictory That is pretty flashy. vs his upB as mario i'd just WD back to grab ledge if marth sweetspots, and then when he trys to o high for a mix up, free cape. Even 3.5 Marth is helpless off stage vs this character. He gotta he real tricky to get back, or the mario gotta mess up.

You can mind-game them by Up-B cancelling with a wall jump, immediately fast-fall to the ledge and jump up and hit the Fair, you can also dive back down for another up-b to bait them off stage so you can stage-spike or spike them.

 

[Gallo69]

In 3.0 I felt it was about even. In 3.5 it's probably in Marth's favor, but not even close to as bad as the melee MU.

 

[UpBforVictory]

In 3.0 I felt it was about even. In 3.5 it's probably in Marth's favor, but not even close to as bad as the melee MU.

I totally agree.

 

[Sir Bubbles]

3-7 Marth's favor in PM? It isn't even close to being that bad. It's in his favor, but it's not bad.

IMO, Mewtwo is his worst MU, even then it's only 4-6 in Mewtwo's favor.

 

[j3ly]

you need to stay on the ground. as soon as mario jumps, he drops about 5 tiers vs marth, so abuse the facts that:

you moves start up faster
you act faster out of shield

use your shield!!
you running in and blocking an attack generally leaves marth in a position where you can counter him.
wd -> ftilt is safe vs his shield.

wd -> jab -> grab is our best offensive option
run in -> shield is out best defensive option

 

[UpBforVictory]

you need to stay on the ground. as soon as mario jumps, he drops about 5 tiers vs marth, so abuse the facts that:

you moves start up faster
you act faster out of shield

use your shield!!
you running in and blocking an attack generally leaves marth in a position where you can counter him.
wd -> ftilt is safe vs his shield.

wd -> jab -> grab is our best offensive option
run in -> shield is out best defensive option

Ohhh. .That explains alot, I jump alot when fighting ANYONE. .but shield grabs seem to annihilate Marth.

 

[TTTTTsd]

This is by far one of Mario's worst MUs alongside Mewtwo from what I can tell (still not abysmal or unwinnable by any means), so it definitely warrants discussion. With the fireball nerf, the Mario v. Marth stalemate is broken and Mario has to respect him a bit more, for sure. Not as bad as Melee MU because fireballs are still BETTER than Melee fireballs, and Mario's movement and options are expanded on greatly compared to Melee in this MU in particular, in terms of finishers, edgeguarding, and ways he can set up into optimal things.

 

[cod3kill]

I don't think this MU is that bad, I only really ever lose to Marths that are just better than me at smash. You have to crouch cancel a lot at low percents and dash dance a lot at higher percents. Marth can just go for grabs or dairs if you are crouch cancelling a lot though. Fireballs only get you so far, they only got you so far in 3.02 too, you can't be predictable with them or Marth can just slash right through them. Ideally you want to condition him to shield them so you can get grabs. You really have to make your punishes last as long as possible and edge guard well.

 

[KinGly]

I've decided I'm done with this matchup. I've talked to a lot of people about it, played it a ton, and I'm just worn out from it. I think it's time I work on a secondary anyway. I'll be on the sheik boards.

 

[JipC]

Lately I've just been switching to Mario for Roy and Kirby for Marth, I have an easier time that way.
I don't nearly have as much trouble with the Marth MU in PM than I do in Melee though, even if I decide to stay Mario. I think its really doable with all his buffs in this game, specially compared to Melee where I feel like it's 9:1 for Marth.

Just throw fireballs at them, if they aren't smart enough to slice through them or just maneuver around them and instead just shield them then go ham

It's mario's worse MU. And things have changed since the last patch. Before the patch the MU was around 7:3 Marth's favor. I think with Dair toned being down, the recovery game being weaker(it's still solid) and fireball changes, it might even be harder now.

Read the Mario MU thread for some insight on the MU. I did a pretty good write up on this.

Also, I feel like most marth's aren't going to be helpful, inreguards to information on this, since most of the ones on smashboards, think it's even or in Mario's favor. Lol'd.

People overestimate/overrate Mario too much, I have no idea why (maybe its just the fireballs)

 

[Gallo69]

^ People overrate Mario because he was seriously a god in 3.0. He didn't get any glaringly noticeable nerfs or changes, so a few non-mario players just assume he's still as good as he was. The slight nerfs all around make him a totally fair character now imo, and 3.5 Mario is exactly where I think he should be.

 

[AssTAStic_ACA]

This is a bad match up but it can get either better or worse depending on the play style of the marth. If its the typical spacing type marth, the match up is like 4:6. with good reads and reactions its totally possible for seasoned mario mains. If its an aggro marth well.....its gunna be really frustrating. Though marth has laggy moves it doesnt help that he out spaces you on like everything, and mario doesnt have good answers to that already out side of shield grab. Both styles require good reads and near perfect play, most importantly awareness of when to go aggressive and when not to.

 

[yellowdee]

I like to dash dance within Marth's smash range, then short hop away and release a turnaround B fireball. This seems to throw off just about anyone, and possibly enough to short hop back in and do an L-canceled up-air. I then like to run back and repeat the B-reverse. This makes it difficult for an aggro marth to get a footing, and you can finish the mix up by going back to more traditional fighting styles.

 

[CelloLuCC]

As a Marth main myself, the Mario MU is a pain in the neck.

Fire balls are seriously annoying sometimes. If you wanna annoy Marth, throw a fireball out when you have space. Basically, make him approach you. Space right, and keep him in your range when you can, but not too often. Use sidestep a good bit against grabs. Most of Marth's combos use grabs. Lastly, be careful with your recovery, Marth's dtilt can edgeguard well.

Trust me, as someone who is an adept body bagged, I know how to lose.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

As a Marth main myself, the Mario MU is a pain in the neck.

Fire balls are seriously annoying sometimes. If you wanna annoy Marth, throw a fireball out when you have space. Basically, make him approach you. Space right, and keep him in your range when you can, but not too often. Use sidestep a good bit against grabs. Most of Marth's combos use grabs. Lastly, be careful with your recovery, Marth's dtilt can edgeguard well.

Trust me, as someone who is an adept body bagged, I know how to lose.

Fireballs aint shet no more

 

[CelloLuCC]

Fireballs aint shet no more

still annoying tho

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

still annoying tho

I guess? Before Mario could spam them, which was extra brain dead and annoying. This was because the IASA was like 24, now its 42 or something close to that. Idk who is gonna find it annoying anymore.

 

[D e l t a]

Lately I've just been switching to Mario for Roy and Kirby for Marth, I have an easier time that way.

Sorry if this is a bit late and slightly off-topic, but why Kirby?!? That's literally Kirby's worst MU. It's worse than Mario v Marth...

==

Anyway, back on topic...

When 3.5 dropped and I quit Lucas for the beginning few weeks, I picked up Marth & Fox (yay Melee top tiers..) I would pick Marth as a counter to Mario ONLY because most Mario players recklessly spammed fireballs with little thought to spacing or stage control. Once I clanked the fireballs with jab / tilts / Fair, I either claimed stage control and forced their approach, grabbed them getting scared in shield, or sliced thru the fireball while they were in the air. From there, it was simple Fair / Utilt / Uair juggles and bad landing punishes that led to a strong hit and converting into a ledge guards.

Against Marth, Mario can survive a long time due to his good recovery and decent weight not allowing raw hits or long combos. Smart fireballs can give Marth players headaches and rack on quick damage. Catching Marth in the air can lead to juggles of your own and he has a much better time converting into big hits. Dthrow should lead into 30-50% on Marth if you play it correctly and Bthrow sets up for easy gimps on Marth. IMO, crouch cancelling is so underrated in the MU. Marth in the air isn't that great and gets punished easily. You can either CC Fair at low % or bait the landing aerial with a shield / spot dodge / being spaced back. The biggest thing in the MU is range, but every other character in the game has to work around this as well. Learn to bait attacks and punish whiffs / mis-spaced aerials.