Guide Mario matchup thread

[Kulty]

Guys,

So after discussing all those MUs, I want to ask you guys this question: do you feel that according to these MUs that we've discussed, do you guys feel that Mario is solo mainable? I want to hear what you guys feel about it, but let me tell you what I think. Personally, I don't think he's solo viable, because I feel that unlike some other high-tier characters (correct me if I'm wrong if you have knowledge of other high and top-tiers), I feel that Mario does struggle a lot more against some characters that are lower than him. Plus, the other high-tiers don't have too much of a problem going against these characters. While these MUs are duable, I still feel that it's not enough for me to consider Mario a solo viable character. I feel imo he struggles against:. I feel that's a ton of characters that he struggles. How could Mario be top-tier if he has that many characters that he struggles fighting against? I just don't get that logic. Plus, Mario has to watch out for characters such as. That's just me. Do I make any sense here? Sorry if I ask this question out of nowhere, but hearing people say that Mario is top-tier as of now makes no sense to me...

 

[Xandercosm]

Guys,

So after discussing all those MUs, I want to ask you guys this question: do you feel that according to these MUs that we've discussed, do you guys feel that Mario is solo mainable? I want to hear what you guys feel about it, but let me tell you what I think. Personally, I don't think he's solo viable, because I feel that unlike some other high-tier characters (correct me if I'm wrong if you have knowledge of other high and top-tiers), I feel that Mario does struggle a lot more against some characters that are lower than him. Plus, the other high-tiers don't have too much of a problem going against these characters. While these MUs are duable, I still feel that it's not enough for me to consider Mario a solo viable character. I feel imo he struggles against:. I feel that's a ton of characters that he struggles. How could Mario be top-tier if he has that many characters that he struggles fighting against? I just don't get that logic. Plus, Mario has to watch out for characters such as. That's just me. Do I make any sense here? Sorry if I ask this question out of nowhere, but hearing people say that Mario is top-tier as of now makes no sense to me...

Do I really need to explain again? He's solo main viable for the same reasons as Diddy Kong, Meta Knight, Ness, Yoshi, etc. He's extremely solid. Plus, having only 12 sketchy MUs is something most characters dream of. I think the person we should all be asking this question is Ally. But, unless someone finds some miraculous strat for beating Mario consistently, he'll always be one of the best characters in the game.

 

[Kulty]

Do I really need to explain again? He's solo main viable for the same reasons as Diddy Kong, Meta Knight, Ness, Yoshi, etc. He's extremely solid. Plus, having only 12 sketchy MUs is something most characters dream of. I think the person we should all be asking this question is Ally. But, unless someone finds some miraculous strat for beating Mario consistently, he'll always be one of the best characters in the game.

I see. I just don't see Mario being around top-tiers, because Mario has so many MUs that he struggles like I mentionned before. Some of this characters are even less viable than he is.

Also guys! Do you feel that we should continue some MU discussions or is it really too late? I just want to discuss about what you guys feel about MUs that need to be rediscussed and also discuss?

 

[Red Stache]

Thank you, sir.

You're quite welcome!
Thank you for your contributions, Xandercosm!

I just don't see Mario being around top-tiers, because Mario has so many MUs that he struggles like I mentionned before. Some of this characters are even less viable than he is.

Wait... you don't think Mario should be considered up there? Even though he has such amazing frame data and that all of his moves have use, in one way or another, in a match-up?

Forgive me if I have misunderstood something, but I don't get why many of the match-ups you listed are ones Mario struggles with.
I mean, you think Mr. Game and Watch , is a poor match-up for Mario? In what way is it bad?
Last I checked on Mr. G&W, he has quite a bit of problems when I comes to fighting against most characters. Not only does Mario destroy him with his superior frame data, but Mario also has a great air game, powerful and quick moves, and combos that can KO on stage or gimp Mr. G&W quite well, especially since Mr. G&W is so light.

The only match-ups I see there that Mario possibly or does struggle/lose against are, , , , and possibly .

Even then, most of those match-ups you stated either, don't seem like ones Mario would or should struggle against, or are sketchy/debatable at best.


And just like Xandercosm said here:

unless someone finds some miraculous strat for beating Mario consistently, he'll always be one of the best characters in the game.

And I agree with this too. While I can be wrong about Mr. G&W, until we see a character that can beat Mario consistently (or in a exceptional way), Mario will be treated (or at least considered) as one of the best characters in this game.

also discuss?

I feel it's still early to discuss Cloud as he, at this time, only a few weeks old.
All I know right now is that Mario can combo Cloud hard and has the tools to gimp Cloud off stage, that work well.
But still, this is subject to change.

 

[Kulty]

You're quite welcome!
Thank you for your contributions, Xandercosm!



Wait... you don't think Mario should be considered up there? Even though he has such amazing frame data and that all of his moves have use, in one way or another, in a match-up?

Forgive me if I have misunderstood something, but I don't get why many of the match-ups you listed are ones Mario struggles with.
I mean, you think Mr. Game and Watch , is a poor match-up for Mario? In what way is it bad?
Last I checked on Mr. G&W, he has quite a bit of problems when I comes to fighting against most characters. Not only does Mario destroy him with his superior frame data, but Mario also has a great air game, powerful and quick moves, and combos that can KO on stage or gimp Mr. G&W quite well, especially since Mr. G&W is so light.

The only match-ups I see there that Mario possibly or does struggle/lose against are, , , , and possibly .

Even then, most of those match-ups you stated either, don't seem like ones Mario would or should struggle against, or are sketchy/debatable at best.


And just like Xandercosm said here:


And I agree with this too. While I can be wrong about Mr. G&W, until we see a character that can beat Mario consistently (or in a exceptional way), Mario will be treated (or at least considered) as one of the best characters in this game.




I feel it's still early to discuss Cloud as he, at this time, only a few weeks old.
All I know right now is that Mario can combo Cloud hard and has the tools to gimp Cloud off stage, that work well.
But still, this is subject to change.

Well... I'm one of the few people who say that people tend to overrate Mario a bit too much. I don't think that Mario is as threatening as people think once they know the MU. That's just me. I'm just scared that there's no more things left to discover for Mario. I just hope he won't fall into the mid-tiers, but I believe he will stay in the high-tiers as years will come.

Also for G&W, you have to know that G&W has one of the best down throw combos in the whole game which can even compare to characters like pre-patch Luigi and even Mario. G&W can instant kill you if he's lucky to get a nine. Plus, G&W is a character that has huge disjoint hitboxes in which Mario does suffer from. Along with that, G&W has some guaranteed throw combos and his moves pack a punch in terms of damage. Because of this, he doesn't have trouble KOing as opposed to Mario. Plus, G&W is small and doesn't get comboed as hard, which does hurt Mario's ability to combo him. At the same time, he has an invincible up-smash that's so frustrating to deal with... Finally, G&W has an ungimpable recovery which pretty shuts down one of Mario's greatest strenghts. Overall, G&W shuts down Mario's ability to combo and to edgeguard which is why I think that G&W is a bad MU for Mario (one of the reasons why I HATE G&W SO MUCH BECAUSE HE`S SO ANNOYING AND OBNOXIOUS). However, it's not the worst. It's definitely duable due to Mario having a better neutral game and he can kill G&W pretty early due to his up-smash being also ridiculous.

Anyway, if you guys feel ready to discuss Cloud, we can start the discussion as soon as we know more about Cloud...

 

[Xandercosm]

If I were to make an early judgement about Cloud right now, I would say its at least 60:40 in Mario's favor (if not even more). Mario combos Cloud so easily since he has no combo breakers and has a perfect sized body and falling speed for it. Also, Mario has high air speed and great frame data, meaning he can get past Cloud's wall of sword slashes for easy grabs/punishes' Also, Mario can seriously mess with Clouds recovery which is huge. So, for the time being, I would venture to say that Mario destroys cloud.

 

[Xeze]

The only match-ups I see there that Mario possibly or does struggle/lose against are, , , , and possibly .

Mario doesn't lose or struggle vs Pikachu, imo. That MU is even or in Mario's favor (slightly). I agree with ZSS, Sheik and Rosalina though (I think Rosalina is harder than the other two). DK is also a bad MU for Mario, as he outranges us with most of his moves, has a scary edgeguard game and the Ding Dong is the just the final nail in Mario's coffin.

 

[Xandercosm]

Mario doesn't lose or struggle vs Pikachu, imo. That MU is even or in Mario's favor (slightly). I agree with ZSS, Sheik and Rosalina though (I think Rosalina is harder than the other two). DK is also a bad MU for Mario, as he outranges us with most of his moves, has a scary edgeguard game and the Ding Dong is the just the final nail in Mario's coffin.

This makes me wonder: Does Doc have a good MU with Pika? It sure seems so from the Nairo vs. ESAM match. Which would likely mean it's a good MU for Mario, as well.

 

[Xeze]

This makes me wonder: Does Doc have a good MU with Pika? It sure seems so from the Nairo vs. ESAM match. Which would likely mean it's a good MU for Mario, as well.

I think I've heard some top player say (not sure which one) that it's more or less even.

 

[Smoking_Hot_BBQ]

How are doc's out of shield options compared to mario? I feel like that affects the matchup to some degree.

 

[Xandercosm]

How are doc's out of shield options compared to mario? I feel like that affects the matchup to some degree.

Well Doc has that super potent U-special...

 

[Smoking_Hot_BBQ]

Well Doc has that super potent U-special...

I think that helps Dr. Mario a lot against Pika.

 

[Xandercosm]

I think that helps Dr. Mario a lot against Pika.

I agree. I also think that Doc just hits Pika hard enough that he induces just a bit of fear. So that's useful too.

 

[Kulty]

Guys,

If you know AceStarthe3rd, I was watching one of his blind dates video and I heard something pretty interesting. When he played Mario, I heard something that kinda caught my attention and it kinda brings me back to my point that I was trying to say early on. You can watch the video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRIO5xHJ3os. It starts at 3:15 and ends at 4:40. Based on this statement, I really agreed to what Ace's friend has to say about Mario. That's just me though. Sorry if I bring this up again, but it has just been bothering me for the past few days.

 

[Xandercosm]

But its a good thing if a character mostly loses to low or mid tier characters since those are the ones nobody plays.

 

[miniada]

What do u think of Marios my cart from the community ssb4 mu chart. I think it's weird.

 

[Kulty]

But its a good thing if a character mostly loses to low or mid tier characters since those are the ones nobody plays.

But what will happen if they might become tournament viable threats later on when we know more about the metagame? I can see characters likebeing threats and viable in national and big tournaments.

 

[Xandercosm]

But what will happen if they might become tournament viable threats later on when we know more about the metagame? I can see characters likebeing threats and viable in national and big tournaments.

Every character has a few bad MUs, though. Honestly, his only real "bad" MUs are:

I think it would be hard to make a case for him not being solo viable.

 

[Xeze]

Losing to mid-low tier characters isn't as relevant as losing to top threats, because you have less probabilities of encountering them in a tournament.

Mario isn't top 10 though, imo. He probably is top 15 though.

 

[Xandercosm]

Losing to mid-low tier characters isn't as relevant as losing to top threats, because you have less probabilities of encountering them in a tournament.

Mario isn't top 10 though, imo. He probably is top 15 though.

I just don't understand how one could not consider him top 10. All I've ever heard anyone say is that he's solidly top 10. However, I don't take peoples' word for things without making my own judgement. But, I honestly can't see him any lower than top 9 or 8. But that's just my/most peoples' opinion.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Is the Sheik matchup really 50-50 or 45-55 at its worst? Mario has been my secondary for a while, but I'm thinking of training either him or Cloud as my pocket anti-Sheik.

 

[Xeze]

Is the Sheik matchup really 50-50 or 45-55 at its worst? Mario has been my secondary for a while, but I'm thinking of training either him or Cloud as my pocket anti-Sheik.

I'd say 45:55. If Sheik didn't have that stupid recovery it would be 50:50, imo.
I don't know how Cloud does against Sheik though.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I'd say 45:55. If Sheik didn't have that stupid recovery it would be 50:50, imo.
I don't know how Cloud does against Sheik though.

I have some replays to upload if you're interested in watching one or two. Might have to work on some things, but I really had a hard time landing against the guy.

 

[Xeze]

I have some replays to upload if you're interested in watching one or two. Might have to work on some things, but I really had a hard time landing against the guy.

Sure I'll watch those replays when you upload them.

 

[Kulty]

So if we count all of the MUs discussed, Mario`s worst MUs at high levels of play are? Am I missing anyone? I just want to know the general consensus of Mario`s worst MUs according to top professional Mario players.

EDIT: Btw, is this thread dead? Should we rediscuss some MUs?

 

[Fluttershy]

I'd wait until the 3rd since a new update is coming and we don't know what could change.. most of the matchups will need to be redone because data may be different then..

 

[Kulty]

I'd wait until the 3rd since a new update is coming and we don't know what could change.. most of the matchups will need to be redone because data may be different then..

Sure. When we are ready (few months later most likely), we can discuss theMUs along with some MUs that we have to rediscuss. We have to expect our MUs to be even harder later on and maybe less significant results, because I've heard that Ally might drop Mario as his main for someone like. Ally, along with Anti and maybe Zenyou, are the only Mario players that do have strong consistent results with the character.

 

[Fluttershy]

Sure. When we are ready (few months later most likely), we can discuss theMUs along with some MUs that we have to rediscuss. We have to expect our MUs to be even harder later on and maybe less significant results, because I've heard that Ally might drop Mario as his main for someone like. Ally, along with Anti and maybe Zenyou, are the only Mario players that do have strong consistent results with the character.

I won't be able to help much with the MUs aside from CF and a few others because I'm still a bit inexperienced with characters I haven't fought yet and still developing with Mario (I don't have much farther to go imo..)

Probably could do those that were already done after the list of changes comes out and know if there's anything game changing about a certain MU and go over the topic

 

[TupacLives123]

This matchup guide is actually really funny

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

What are the do's and don'ts of the Mario vs. Diddy matchup?

 

[Kid_Carlton13]

What are the do's and don'ts of the Mario vs. Diddy matchup?

Of course you ask after CEO. Plus this thread is dead af I've been asking for advice here and nobody comes through. But overall its pretty even IMO don't get baited by banana use fireball to space every now and then don't challenge him in the air that much because of up air and fair. Other than that he's easy to combo at early % but it get's tricky as the % stacks on

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

I use and have a major Mario weakness. And since its Plumber land here in CO I need a solution. I have some characters I've had some success with. Who do against Mario ?

 

[Darth Tobito]

Any tips for the Cloud/Mario matchup? Neutral is very hard against Cloud because it's hard for Mario's stubby arms to get past his sword.

 

[Megamang]

If Cloud is in the air near you, you wanna be expecting an aerial. Usually this means shield. Cloud lacks a good grounded poke that is safe; abuse this. If he does a tilt on your shield, you should get a grab. Dont contest his aerials, play around them.

Sh happy clouds should be Fludded on sight.

 

[Crosstails20]

Where is ?