Mario Forum is dead

[FakeTaxi]

What's up with that? Is everyone switching to Doc or something?

 

[Britex]

No. Just trying to find a nearby tournament atm.

 

[Wreckarooni]

Well right now there is way more rep for Mario than there is Doc as for as top national tournament placings go (basically KoopaTroopa & A Rookie, Schlimmshady in Europe). I see about as many Marios as I do Docs in my region (not many), they probably just aren't on here or active online.

 

[T-Skittle]

We need to just find more stuff to talk about outside of the up-b walljump tech, seriously that is like half of the threads on here

 

[ChivalRuse]

PPMD started as a Mario main. We should talk about his tournament matches from like 5 years ago.

 

[Sheepomg]

I have some thought provoking mario ideas. Will post soon.

The reason mario forums arent as active as lets say fox/falco/falcon forums has less to do with there being a lack of legitmate mario players and more to do with brand new players who have absolutely no idea how to do anything trying to play a select few characters. The "activity" in the spacey forums is mostly new players asking the same basic questions, e.g. "How do i SHDL?" "How do i waveshine?" Basic things like this that any veteran smasher either knows or could determine on their own.

Mario isn't as popular (for obvious reasons), and so we don't ppl in the forums asking how to do mario specific things.

On the other side of the spectrum, we dont have any top level mario champions. Thus strategies, hype, and new tech aren't as voraciously sought after.

 

[ChivalRuse]

We need top Mario players to appear. KoopaTroopa and ARookie, I have faith!

 

[T-Skittle]

Well let's start just talking about random stuff to try and optimize Mario's game so we can level up the plumber meta. Since we don't have many Mario's out there whose example we can follow, let's start digging on our own into the game.I have been trying to find ares of Mario's game that aren't being fully exploited, as far as I can tell in matches I have watched. One thing I have been trying to implement into my game is chain grabbing spacies more efficiently. When done well you can grab them from 0-80% which can lead into u-air - f-smash type combos(really simple 2-3 hit combos that end into a nice edge guarding situation.) The main problem I have is the chain grab from 0-35% where it is far more difficult. I have tried tech chasing here and have experimented a bit with using boost grab. The main problem is that you don't have the speed of falcon to tech chase 20GX status, and Mario's T-rex arms make spacing the grab tough (hence trying to boost brag where necessary) especially at lower percents. Does anyone know of an optimal way to get long chain grabs going?

And one random thing I have been experimenting with that is an interesting edge guard option: caping the opponent's ledge roll. In just about all of the ledge rolls in the game the fist half is invincible and second half is not. So you can attack the opponent and where in the second half of their ledge roll and it will hit. I noticed when playing friendlies you can cape them and it puts them into a tumble animation and nobody expects it, so it's a little mind games oriented but leads into all sorts of combos, gabs, and edge guard resets. Just have to make sure you hit on with the hitbox frames (12-14), not the reflect frames. Taken from the Mario hitbox thread so you see what I am talking about with the frames, the red is where you can hit them with your cape. thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/mario-hitboxes-and-frame-data.312343/

Total: 35
Hit: 12-14
Reflects: 6-33

I like this option when I am about mid platform distance away from ledge, so if they roll behind me (typically lower level players will try this a lot, essentially trying to do a cross-up with a roll from ledge) I can just turn around cape and get a big punish, just have to time it right to frames 12-14 hit them when they are out of invincibility.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Lol. That caping idea is quite interesting. That just goes to show that there are so many aspects of the game that are unexplored. There still needs to be experimentation done on caping various aerials and other hitboxes.

As far as chain grabbing is concerned, if you grab a spacy at about 5%, you can uthrow > up-smash and the up-smash knocks them onto the ground I believe. Most people miss that tech as well. We just have to get really good at getting the first regrab if you grab at 0% I guess. It's easy enough to practice on CPUs.

 

[Mejonat]

I'm kinda new, but I've been trying to play Mario a lot, and something that I've found extremely useful is knowing exactly how long dair lasts and exactly when and where you can throw it out so that it will autocancel. It's an incredible tool that I feel is key to a lot of Mario's potential.

Full hop dair is pretty common tech, but imma try to elaborate on some of the variations that I use.
If you full hop and immediately flick the c-stick down as soon as you can when you leave the ground, the dair will autocancel right near the ground if you fast fall at the peak of your jump. You can also catch standing opponents on the way up with this, which might throw them off.
I also find that short hopping from a platform onto the ground and immediately dairing/fast falling makes the move autocancel on battlefield (this one I haven't really tested out or thought about for a while, so I might be dead wrong about it, sorry if that's the case)
If you're in the middle of a full hop or just descending, try throwing out dair without fast falling to get a feel for how long it lasts. I've had a good deal of success with non fast fall dairs, I think because it throws people off.

The bottom line is that dair is amazing. Mario mains need to try it in all kinds of variations to get a feel for it imo. Try double jump rising dair ac onto platforms, try it against aerial opponents too. I've found that if I'm dairing an opponent in the air, I can fast fall after the dair and they'll plop down right in front of me. I've been able to get d-smashes and even f-smashes out of this, although I'm sure this wouldn't work consistently in high level play. The reason it works for me once or twice per set is because it throws off the opponent's rhythm. They don't expect it.
For grounded opponents, if you connect the dair and ac it right, it can lead to quick grabs, uptilts, ftilts, jabs into grabs or d-smash, it's just a very versatile move.

That's my 2 cents anyway. Can better players than me confirm some of this stuff? I know a lot of it's not guaranteed, but it's stuff that's worked often for me, even against good players.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Dair has a good hitbox and can be useful for protecting yourself. You have to be careful using low knockback moves like that as a bread and butter, though, because you can get counterattacked very easily. I think it can occasionally be good as a surprise approach angle or to deny opponents charging into you.

 

[Mejonat]

I agree, it's not good to be approaching with dair all the time or anything like that. It depends on circumstance and positioning. But you can mix up your opponents with it by working it into your combos, in which case there's not much risk of being counterattacked. I think it might be a good way to extend combos - instead of using the standard upair-upair-nair, maybe upair-ACdair-grab-dthrow-uptilt-upair. That's not gonna work in a lot of scenarios of course, but i think mario is a character that really rewards creativity like that.

 

[T-Skittle]

Ya d-air is great, but i just never think to throw it out that much. Here is something else I was messing around with, a neat option from the ledge. It works best on Yoshi's since it is safer there (you can do it quicker). Essentially you can drop from the ledge and then immediately up-b, angle the up-b to get the most horizontal distance and then drift into a ledge cancel. The ledge cancel makes it safer and you can hit people guarding to close to the edge and steal their money, which can lead into some interesting follow ups. It's also super fast that its pretty much instant, and frames 3-6 are invincible. You can do it on other stages besides Yoshi's but you have to delay the up-b till you are practically on the stage under the platform, so if you get hit you don't have a jump and are off stage.

 

[Mejonat]

That's so simple, I can't believe I haven't done that haha thanks

 

[T-Skittle]

Haha ya no problem, I just figured it out a few days ago. I am going to my local weekly in an hour so I will be testing this out in friendlies and such.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Nice discovery.

 

[GeZ]

You don't need Mario discussion to improve. Smashboards can be a good resource, and a fun place to chill, but a lot of players act like talking here makes you a better player. It doesn't matter that these boards aren't active. There's enough info out their to learn the ins and outs of this character, or any character, and start improving, by playing the game.

Stop checking to see if A Rookie or KoopaTroopa have posted here, and start bodying your locals with Mario, and hitting up weeklies. The character meta doesn't get pushed by lab time and discussion, it gets pushed by bopping top tiers, so get to it, my dudes.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

You don't need Mario discussion to improve. Smashboards can be a good resource, and a fun place to chill, but a lot of players act like talking here makes you a better player. It doesn't matter that these boards aren't active. There's enough info out their to learn the ins and outs of this character, or any character, and start improving, by playing the game.

Stop checking to see if A Rookie or KoopaTroopa have posted here, and start bodying your locals with Mario, and hitting up weeklies. The character meta doesn't get pushed by lab time and discussion, it gets pushed by bopping top tiers, so get to it, my dudes.

At some point I think most people are going to get to the point where they reach a plateau. There becomes a point where you no longer improve and playing more does absolutely nothing for you.

From my experience and watching others playing is the best way to start. You literally have no reference point to base anything. With practicing tech skill you can do the stuff you want to do and eventually you gain a good set of options to select from based on experience and copying other people. However, at some point I think this "play only" sort of strategy stops letting you improve.

In order to reach the next plateau you need to gain an understanding which is incredibly hard for people on their own. Therefore, you talk with other people and get a different understanding and try to come to conclusions on what to improve next. At the basic level a person with Kirby stops inhaling and stoning because someone told them you should stop doing that and helped them realize what else you might do.

Eventually this gets to the point where rather than replacing bad choices with good choices you try to replace good choices with the best possible choices. You can optimization through experience, but you often lack optimization in other areas or can speed it up by other means. You can do this by watching videos of yourself to see where you need to practice more. Talk with people to help you realize stuff you could be doing better or are messing up you do not see yourself. Go into debug mode to figure out things.

I would say your ability as a player is dependent upon taking time to do both; discussion/lab time and playing. If you mean to become a pioneer and advance the metagame of a character beyond what others have done I am almost certain you would have to do your discussion and lab time to do what other people have not already accomplished.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Just want to point out that PPMD has over 25,000 posts on here. I think discussion can't hurt.

 

[T-Skittle]

I would say your ability as a player is dependent upon taking time to do both; discussion/lab time and playing. If you mean to become a pioneer and advance the metagame of a character beyond what others have done I am almost certain you would have to do your discussion and lab time to do what other people have not already accomplished.

This is exactly why I keep trying to find out what little things I can, whatever I can find as an advantage to Mario is something that can help grow the character.

 

[GeZ]

@ E Elyssa Xey Hexen But their are a lot of players who get trapped in the forums digging for information, without ever hitting up tournaments. That's kind of the forum trap. Or would you argue that their are more players that enter tournies without browsing forums, rather than the vice versa?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

@ E Elyssa Xey Hexen But their are a lot of players who get trapped in the forums digging for information, without ever hitting up tournaments. That's kind of the forum trap. Or would you argue that their are more players that enter tournies without browsing forums, rather than the vice versa?

Oh, if that was the main concern than I fully agree with that as well. I was mainly being a proponent of doing the research and discussion at all. There is certainly the question of how to use your time wisely. I would agree you should mainly focus on playing to build up you execution ability and general gameplay experience before being able to discuss strategy and other nuances in greater detail. I remember getting caught in a rut mainly because I did not have the technical prowess to do what I wanted to do. Its better, but its still not there to the level I want even now after like 3-4 years.

There is still some things you can pick up doing your research even with less experience by say copying what others do and practice it yourself. So, you can spend a little time early on. Later when you sort of become the best or equal with those around you you need to break out somehow. Fine tuning your gameplay at that point I think is when discussion and more strategy and research starts to help out.

 

[GeZ]

Oh, if that was the main concern than I fully agree with that as well. I was mainly being a proponent of doing the research and discussion at all. There is certainly the question of how to use your time wisely. I would agree you should mainly focus on playing to build up you execution ability and general gameplay experience before being able to discuss strategy and other nuances in greater detail. I remember getting caught in a rut mainly because I did not have the technical prowess to do what I wanted to do. Its better, but its still not there to the level I want even now after like 3-4 years.

There is still some things you can pick up doing your research even with less experience by say copying what others do and practice it yourself. So, you can spend a little time early on. Later when you sort of become the best or equal with those around you you need to break out somehow. Fine tuning your gameplay at that point I think is when discussion and more strategy and research starts to help out.

Definitely agree with most of what you said. I wasn't at all saying you shouldn't discuss, I've spent a fair amount of time as a forum monster myself, but just getting out their and playing is super beneficial, and I feel like it's something a lot of players here are too scared to do. You get a lot of "I need more time to practice" and less "I'll definitely carpool to mayhem!". I think, in the current state of forums effect on the playerbase, we need more active and willing travellers and friendly monsters.

 

[KoopaTroopa895]

Well let's start just talking about random stuff to try and optimize Mario's game so we can level up the plumber meta. Since we don't have many Mario's out there whose example we can follow, let's start digging on our own into the game.I have been trying to find ares of Mario's game that aren't being fully exploited, as far as I can tell in matches I have watched. One thing I have been trying to implement into my game is chain grabbing spacies more efficiently. When done well you can grab them from 0-80% which can lead into u-air - f-smash type combos(really simple 2-3 hit combos that end into a nice edge guarding situation.) The main problem I have is the chain grab from 0-35% where it is far more difficult. I have tried tech chasing here and have experimented a bit with using boost grab. The main problem is that you don't have the speed of falcon to tech chase 20GX status, and Mario's T-rex arms make spacing the grab tough (hence trying to boost brag where necessary) especially at lower percents. Does anyone know of an optimal way to get long chain grabs going?

And one random thing I have been experimenting with that is an interesting edge guard option: caping the opponent's ledge roll. In just about all of the ledge rolls in the game the fist half is invincible and second half is not. So you can attack the opponent and where in the second half of their ledge roll and it will hit. I noticed when playing friendlies you can cape them and it puts them into a tumble animation and nobody expects it, so it's a little mind games oriented but leads into all sorts of combos, gabs, and edge guard resets. Just have to make sure you hit on with the hitbox frames (12-14), not the reflect frames. Taken from the Mario hitbox thread so you see what I am talking about with the frames, the red is where you can hit them with your cape. thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/mario-hitboxes-and-frame-data.312343/

Total: 35
Hit: 12-14
Reflects: 6-33

I like this option when I am about mid platform distance away from ledge, so if they roll behind me (typically lower level players will try this a lot, essentially trying to do a cross-up with a roll from ledge) I can just turn around cape and get a big punish, just have to time it right to frames 12-14 hit them when they are out of invincibility.

1) For the chain grab question, Mario's CG on Fox (Falco's is a little different and I have to test this) goes till about 50% with upthrow. from there if they do no DI they can double jump out, you could usually respond with an up tilt right there. Up smash works too.

http://www.twitch.tv/shinespiketv/v/6323647
4:21:05

^this example is more of a show of how long the CG is, I actually went for up tilt but messed up and got an up smash instead. But just as a general example. The only time tech chasing may be necessary is like at 0-8%. Otherwise its just practice.

The real trouble with the CG is def the slight DI. I usually react with a pivot grab if they decide to slight di in a direction, but they can def make you work for your CG a lot more if they incoporate slight DI along with no di full di e.t.c. At like 50 everything starts depending on DI. like if they are going towards/near the ledge you can upthrow pivot f-smash for a guranteed strong finisher, it leads and off stage into an edgeguard. otherwise in the center stage uptilt >Wd Uptilt works pretty well along with general followups like upair and nair. Platform punishes are a whole different monster that I could elaborate on later if people are really curious.

If we are talking about theory and things no mario does but should do, I think we really need to start getting used to d-throw'ing fox and falco. The CG starts at like 60 technically but thats unrealistic. After like 100 % though, its pretty reactable if your on point and with some practice. after 125% if they di d-throw it leads into f-smash which almost always kills. if they don't di you just regrab (this is something I do do already but I don't do the CG). IF they actually aren't di'ing the d-throw just make sure you upsmash them after like 140% and they die on most stages (might require some testing as 140 is a ballpark number). I think this is important because after like 100 we get less followups when players use good DI. Personally for when I do do the CG I squeeze in as many pummels as I can, since I want the reaction window to get bigger and more lenient. So if you don't hear them mashing squeeze two or three in there before the next throw (for up throw probably like one or two max).


2) As far as the cape on the ledge, it was something i messed with for like a week or two, but I think its good or bad mostly depending on the character. Like I think it may actually be okay vs peach, since from the edge most of the time peach's double jump is slow and reactable, and they'll mix it up with the options you mentioned like rolling/getup/getup attack from the ledge. However its also honestly really awful against a lot of characters if they decide to do a ledgehop >attack, you can get kneed/nair'd for falcon and marth fair/nair e.t.c. It's not really a good enough punish to warrant using it against puff imo (not that a puff would ever roll on the stage). Against some characters you reverse them and can maybe get a folllowup, but it kinda relies on them not properly using their invincibility which is something im not too keen on relying on. Also anybody with a good ledgedash makes this technique not work at all. Sheik fox falco ic e.t.c. will mess you up for trying this so avoid doing it against anybody that has an even remotely decent one. This is of course applied to the specific idea of covering covering a lot of different ledge options. There are a few other options with cape that I feel can be explored. But this is just addressing this one since it's something I actually tried to do at one point.

 

[B_Cypher]

Yea I feel like the cape still has so much undiscovered potential. I recently realized that the cape actually can hit people below the ledge. I looked it up and its been known for a while but it was super exciting and now i feel it opens up so much more options for my mario. If we could find only find more tech like this then Mario would be much more viable than he is considered now.

Mario relies on gimps so Im gonna go practice more with the cape and try to find anything else interesting.

I just wish mario had a tech skill video that showcases tech skills to practice like the other top tiers. Its such a terrible feeling not knowing what to practice or where to go with your mario game

 

[PMMikey]

I haven't really played Melee Mario a whole lot though I've been playing PM Mario and I want to assume that it's about the same. What are some basics that I can learn about him? Like the play style and what not.

 

[Zalak]

I haven't really played Melee Mario a whole lot though I've been playing PM Mario and I want to assume that it's about the same. What are some basics that I can learn about him? Like the play style and what not.

Actually, the Mario in Project M is sort of a blend of Doctor Mario and vanilla Mario from Melee. I think your best bet would be to ask the folks on the PM Mario board. I can give some quick really general tips that might help you out though.

Mario can be played aggressively, but trying to apply serious pressure with him can be risky, so you need to play with caution. If you can't seem to break through your opponent's defense, you should play more defensively, and try baiting attacks out of your opponent instead of rushing head in. Use the fireballs to lure them into a tight spot if you need to.

Mario's killing options (at least in melee) might not seem to be very good at first, but you should soon find that Mario can combo into his most deadly moves pretty easily... which reminds me...

MARIO HAS A SICK COMBO GAME. If you want, you could spend some time in training mode to learn how you can extend Mario's combos. If you're not into that, I would recommend you just keep trying to find new ways to extend your combos/create new combos whenever you play Mario.

Never underestimate the possibilities that open up when you use Mario's cape to increase your mobility options... The cape also gives Mario a rad edgeguarding game. The ability to flip your opponent's direction comes in handy when they're trying to grab the ledge. If they're facing away from the ledge, they can't grab it.

THAT BEING SAID, caping is not always the best edgeguarding option for Mario. Sometimes you need to use your fists/feet. You can also gimp your opponent using your fireballs in certain situations.

AND FINALLY

Make sure you learn to use all of Mario's moves. Mario doesn't have a bad move. Not a single one! Some are definitely more situational than others, but that doesn't mean they don't have their uses.

 

[-ACE-]

PPMD started as a Mario main. We should talk about his tournament matches from like 5 years ago.

He switched to falco about 9 years ago. But his Mario was sick for how little he had played the game back then.