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Official Mario Enigma Machine [1.1.1] Patch Notes

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Deotay

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How does the shield stun affect Ganons attacks does this mean he'll be harder to punish his slow attacks and since his attacks do a lot of damage does this mean he'll be viable?
The opposite is also very likely true. Ganon, being a heavy character, relied a lot on shield being a good option in order to get in on his opponent. With these new changes, Ganon may have a very hard time dealing with shield pressure now and since he doesn't have many good ways to get in aside from shielding, he'll be subject to shield pressure first.
 

Ridel

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I don't really think it's a theory, it will be harder to punish; it's a high damage move. Even still, it's not very safe on shield.
It will be harder to punish no doubt, but how much better is what's hard to determine on paper.
 

Skiji

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I don't really think it's a theory, it will be harder to punish; it's a high damage move. Even still, it's not very safe on shield.
Like I mentioned, it may just come down to reading what Charizard will do for its getup option. (Unless the opponent has a fast-acting attack, of course.)
 

GeneralLedge

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what do you mean by additive?
Every hit adding to the total stun. That would be awful.

But no, even if weak-but-rapid moves are theoretically more useful due to the shieldstun keeping them under pressure, the final hit will still has (relatively) very poor shieldstun, compared to, say, bowser nailing you with fsmash vs shield.
 
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Fatmanonice

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So multi hits and stronger attacks would be much more safe on shield now? This could be godsend for a lot of the low tiers. :4dedede: :4robinm::4shulk::4zelda: might have some of their biggest weaknesses now compensated for. Again, I'm dumb so I could just be talking out of my butt while I mull this over.
 

S_B

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you can still do this though? don't know if true for all characters.
https://vine.co/v/eQ5Yaia3VgW
Seen something similar in this:
https://twitter.com/_infrom_/status/649196617187246080

Is this truly inescapable now, or do you just need to drop shield and smash DI out of there?

EDIT: Okay, I'm hearing this is inescapable...wow...

Also, this should be dubbed "The Irony Patch", because Sakurai saw it fit to buff customs long after customs have largely been kicked to the curb and that fact isn't likely to change...
 
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Ridel

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So multi hits and stronger attacks would be much more safe on shield now? This could be godsend for a lot of the low tiers. :4dedede: :4robinm::4shulk::4zelda: might have some of their biggest weaknesses now compensated for. Again, I'm dumb so I could just be talking out of my butt while I mull this over.
:4ludwig: might get some huge benefits from this as well. D-Smash now seems to be a viable option.
 

Flamecircle

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floor(damage/1.8) + 3
It's not linear though. It's scaled based on the damage dealt, with an additional slight increase to the base amount.
You're right, but it's not that far off: floor(damage/1.8) + 3

The weakest moves will get the most proportional benefit.
 

Mazdamaxsti

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Since multi-hit moves are safer, can someone test Kirby's d-air on shield and if it is punishable? Also see if d-air to stone is s good shield break combo. This could be huge for Kirby.
 

JamietheAuraUser

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I don't wanna speak too soon, but the shield stun increase seems like an enormous buff for Roy.
Considering his FSmash was already silly on shield, yeah.

So multi hits and stronger attacks would be much more safe on shield now? This could be godsend for a lot of the low tiers. :4dedede: :4robinm::4shulk::4zelda: might have some of their biggest weaknesses now compensated for. Again, I'm dumb so I could just be talking out of my butt while I mull this over.
Phantom Slash might work on shield now? Didn't Zelda have a shield-breaker Phantom custom that might actually be decent now?

:4ludwig: might get some huge benefits from this as well. D-Smash now seems to be a viable option.
What about that FSmash though? Actually inescapable break, maybe?
 

valtykeaton

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I'm not 100% sure on this, but it feels as though Mewtwo's hit boxes and hurt boxes have been fixed. Will have to test it more thoroughly.
 

Ridel

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Considering his FSmash was already silly on shield, yeah.



Phantom Slash might work on shield now? Didn't Zelda have a shield-breaker Phantom custom that might actually be decent now?



What about that FSmash though? Actually inescapable break, maybe?
I don't see it being inescapable at all now. Also Up-B on shield might actually be able to link together properly and could possible set-up for a shield break,
 

A2ZOMG

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Cause her shield pressure is already pretty much perfect so you can't really make it any better.
Perfect is a vast overstatement. Several characters on a read could interrupt her pressure options with quick frame data options. That just became harder.

The bigger picture is she gets you to shield, has MORE frame advantage (meaning you have fewer options to interrupt her for doing X move or needles), and she doesn't need to shield because she's top tier and can run away, camp, do really annoying things to dominate neutral, etc. Meaning your low tier isn't benefiting from pressuring her shield.
 
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Ridel

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His jab might actually be deadly now, dtilt might now be a good spacing tool, dair should be significantly safer on shield, and his koopa cart follow ups would be safer if I'm reading into this correctly.
Yup. We may have a neutral now Koopalings!
 

BSP

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Shaya Shaya your OP is confusing me w.r.t shieldstun formula. Does that "over" mean division or "as opposed to"?
 

New_Dumal

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Hey guys, I did this (if the formulas given in the OP are right):



I think it's cool to analyze.what can be used to guarantee a grab as shield punish, or what we can/can't punish anymore.
 

Ridel

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Perfect is a vast overstatement. Several characters on a read could interrupt her pressure options with quick frame data options. That just became harder.

The bigger picture is she gets you to shield, has MORE frame advantage (meaning you have fewer options to interrupt her for doing X move or needles), and she doesn't need to shield because she's top tier and can run away, camp, do really annoying things to dominate neutral, etc. Meaning your low tier isn't benefiting from pressuring her shield.
Guess that's true. It could make other top tiers have better MU's with her though.
 

Snackss

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LancerStaff

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Pit could get silly as well... If you can't escape Fsmash or Usmash in shield anymore then they're not ridiculously punishable like before, and being his two strongest kill moves that'd be huge. Rapid jab might be a good option against shield. Aerials on shield are most likely 100% unescapable instead of being like 98%. Arrows being safer on shield is also a biggie.

And if this seriously effects electric attacks as well... Dunno what fatties will do to punish an aerial Electroshock from Dark Pit.
 

Pierce7d

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I'm not going to go into super detail here, but I wanted to address a lot of the cadets and journeyman inquiring about if a Universal Change causes their character to be "nerfed" or "buffed".

When discussing if a character is nerfed or buffed, the direct new capabilities (or deficiencies) of that character are typically a very minute factor unless they have a game changing mechanic they can capitalize on heavily or the most. For example, if Marth's Shieldbreaker did NOT get nerfed, then potentially Nair or Dtilt connecting into ShieldBreaker as a true block string and doing 100% damage to a full shield would obviously be insanely good and we would consider it a buff to Marth.

However, for most characters (including Marth, since Shieldbreaker got nerfed), what determines if a character is actually nerfed or buffed in comparison to the metagame is how it affects the game as a whole, and which characters will become more popular because of it. Suppose Marth is considered 5% better by the change, because he gains offensive pressure and doesn't struggle much with pressure against him since he has Counter and Dolphin Slash. Now suppose his worse match-ups are Sheik, Donkey Kong, and Rosalina, and they all increased by about 15% power. From a tournament perspective, this patch would be considered a nerf to Marth.

Characters do not exist within a vacuum, and if you are a competitor, you should not treat them as such. Your character is buffed if they have an improved match-up spread against other relevant characters, and nerfed if they perform worse than other relevant characters: not just based on only what they now can and cannot do, but also what their opponent's can and cannot do against them. A character is judge based on the merits of their match-ups, and ability to fight other characters.

Suppose every attack in the game did an additional 15% damage (without affecting knockback values). While it's true that we would say everyone got buffed, relatively speaking, many characters would have still been nerfed by the change, in the sense that they would perform worse in comparison to other characters. Characters who have stronger neutral games would be much better, because they will be more rewarded for their ability to score the first hit, and can gain greater conversions from advantageous positions. You might speculate that Bowser or Ganon would be stronger because Forward Smash would kill you from 7%, but in reality, this is not how the game flows, and you have to consider how the mechanics will affect match-ups in regular gameplay. As a result, this buff would likely be considered a buff to Sheik above everyone, since she has the strongest neutral.

The nature of Smash suggests to me that a change in the way Shield Hitstun works means that a character like Sheik will likely be the one who can capitalize the most, as she has the most options to both pressure a shield and avoid shielding. The way your character is affected by this directly relates to how your match-ups with these types of characters are affected. Bowser is still going to get completely wrecked for Forward Smash, because I'm not going to Shield it, I'm just going to dodge it on reaction. There are some moves that do open up new options though, like some Smash Attacks that will be safe on block (I'm excited for Little Mac's Fsmash), but ultimately it will be the character's performance relative to the rest of the cast which lets you determine if they are buffed or nerfed.
 

ParanoidDrone

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I'm...hesitant to ask this here since I know Shaya and co. are showing no mercy with the infractions, but I'm at work and can't investigate anything for myself until 5.

I've heard two specific changes that caught my attention that I'd like verified, if possible. The first is that tournament mode now has an option for custom specials only, no equipment, and also an option for Battlefield only. The second is that For Fun has some kind of "platforms only" option, although I'm not sure exactly what this entails.
 

Mario766

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Can someone help me identify what this means from Master Core?

DownAttackU
DownAttackD

Is it get-up from ledge?
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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q_e_d

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Can someone explain to me what does:
Screw Attack (Up Special)Looping hitboxes 2-4
  • Angle altered 100 → 96
  • Weight knockback altered 150/120 → 178/140
means for samus Screw Attack?
I assume that is meant to make the looping hitboxes link into each other better. So no huge change.
 

Mr. Johan

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The frame speed multipliers Robin has may have something to do with Robin's victory screen animation.


The sword trail did not occur in patches before this.

For any other characters with these frame speed multipliers, check your victory animations. That may be where they're at.
 

MOI-ARI

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I'm...hesitant to ask this here since I know Shaya and co. are showing no mercy with the infractions, but I'm at work and can't investigate anything for myself until 5.

I've heard two specific changes that caught my attention that I'd like verified, if possible. The first is that tournament mode now has an option for custom specials only, no equipment, and also an option for Battlefield only. The second is that For Fun has some kind of "platforms only" option, although I'm not sure exactly what this entails.
Hmm i have not heard anything like that. But i also haven't checked xD
-----

So Bowser's Nair has Endlag reduction.

frames. 25 --> 21
 

SolCalibre

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There are roughly 700 people looking at this thread last time I checked and rightly so...

This patch has potently changed so many things around: more attacks are safe on shield, yoshi's dair being bad (for your shield), Luigi salt, etc.

And all before an international tournament. THANKS SAKURAI!
 
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LRodC

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I'm...hesitant to ask this here since I know Shaya and co. are showing no mercy with the infractions, but I'm at work and can't investigate anything for myself until 5.

I've heard two specific changes that caught my attention that I'd like verified, if possible. The first is that tournament mode now has an option for custom specials only, no equipment, and also an option for Battlefield only. The second is that For Fun has some kind of "platforms only" option, although I'm not sure exactly what this entails.
The tourney additions are true. Battlefield is an option for For Fun and For Glory in tournament mode only, and there is a "Platforms Only" option in this mode. The actual For Fun mode is completely unchanged as far as I can tell, aside from the obvious additions of the new stages.

If someone wants to infract me for spouting out this information, boot up the game and check out the new rooms yourself.
 
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