Mario Boards: General Discussion

[A2ZOMG]

Items are actually pretty fair in MK Wii. At least compared to say MK DS (and probably other MKs) where being in 2nd place is a HUGE tactical advantage over being in 1st place. MK Wii for the most part doesn't discourage you from staying in first place. The chance of acquiring a mushroom in first place makes the Blue Shell and shortcuts in general a lot more fair in MK Wii. Likewise you can acquire red shells in first place, so taking the lead before the end of the race doesn't really specifically punish you in MK Wii. Also, the Pow Block is generally a decent item that also generally reduces the advantage of being in a specific place.

I'll give special mention to MK DD for having a good idea for items, but it's pretty horribly imbalanced in multiplayer on the premise that the best items (Triple Shells) can be consistently occupied by hogging the two characters that use them.

Character imbalances suck. No denying that. It's been the trend for virtually every Mario Kart game as I recall though. In a game where the objective is pretty one dimensional, it's just gonna happen if you make the cast drastically different.

Yeah some of the tracks don't have too many turns, but that doesn't mean the terrain isn't tricky. If you want to beat someone good in MK Wii, you have to have good command over the terrain, especially when obstacles are factored (besides wheelies, a big reason why bikes are better than karts due to being smaller). Due to jump and trick mechanics and the associated commitments required for those, it's not always simple to take shortcuts in MK Wii. MK Wii by far has more complicated jumps than any other Mario Kart, and abusing them optimally requires skill. In fact, SMK doesn't even have "real" jumps. Jump abuse in SMK is for the most part retardedly easy to do since mode7 on the SNES can only do so much. Generally speaking, the terrain in MK Wii is much less simple than the terrain in other MKs, and while abuseable, requires skill to do. Take Rainbow Road. While you can do a lot of tricks on the rippling part of the track near the beginning, actually hitting the speed boost ramp correctly at the end and being able to make the jump across the middle of the half pipe area is alone more complicated than the majority of what the MK series has to offer. MK DD and MK DS do kinda try to implement fancy terrain in their courses (not nearly to the extent MK Wii does), but technical shortcuts and instances of skilled terrain abuse are much less common.

As I recall, the shortcuts you are mentioning are a result of glitches involving someone from the development team failing to properly define where a wall should actually exist, and outside of that, most of the courses in other MKs are fairly linear. The many many shortcuts in MK Wii however aside from Grumble Volcano abuse are pretty much all a result of smart design.

The change to the mini turbo system isn't really what I'd call dumbing down. It's timing dependent, and it takes just as much skill to judge the proper time to do an optimal mini turbo in MK Wii as it does to swivel in any other MK game. The only real difference is it's simpler if you're playing conservatively.

Also, playing this game with a Wii Wheel is simply amazing.

I used to be really into time trials for MK DS...I do think some of my times are fairly impressive in that game. I need more friends to play in MK DS and Wii...I want to get back into my groove for this series.

 

[Inferno3044]

Wall of text battle going on.

I hate Coconut Mall because the black mii hits me EVERY lap.

 

[Coolwhip]

Wall of text battle going on.

I hate Coconut Mall because the black mii hits me EVERY lap.

↑ I lol'd @ black mii.
Everyone is talking bout mkwii now? here of all places? :/

 

[UberMario]

[collapse=collapsed post]

Items are actually pretty fair in MK Wii.

You're pretty much alone there, the majority of people agree that there are too many spiny shells and POW Blocks, which eliminiate 95% of item strategy by removing them from your box. (Unless you were fortunate enough to have a mushroom/star for the former or a star for the latter, but you still have to "lose" them by using them.)

The Thunder Cloud is also pretty much a curse, especially if the person ahead has some significant ground on you.

At least compared to say MK DS (and probably other MKs)

You can NOT be serious, in Mario Kart DS, you could dodge spiny shells EASILY at 150cc and pretty well at 100cc aswell, and red shells come at a rate that you can easily block with bananas. I've YET to be in a MKWii race where I was leading and wasn't hit by two-three spinies, a plethora of red shells, and at least two lightning bolts. This is also the only game where I've gotten ITEM COMBO'D nearly every other race, I can name several times where I was hit with 5 items in a row from multiple drivers because of the ridiculous hitstun and overpoweredness of the items available.

where [in the other Mario Karts] being in 2nd place is a HUGE tactical advantage over being in 1st place.

MK Wii for the most part doesn't discourage you from staying in first place.

Wow . . . . this is pretty much the opposite from the truth. SMK, MK64, MKSC, MKDD, and MKDS encourage you to stay in the lead (except in 1-on-1 races involving item-camping, but that's in MKWii too). MKWii constantly bombards you with unavoidable spinies to make SURE you don't get a huge lead. I've lost a half-of-a-lap lead to a Spiny-POW Block-Red-Spiny combo so many times it isn't funny. The BEST place to be in MKWii is 2nd, because it's not even a matter of IF 1st place will be hit by a spiny, it's when, and odds are, when you get the lead you'll be hit too. NONE of the other Mario Karts discourage you this badly, and that was one of the biggest turnoffs about Mario Kart Wii for me.

The chance of acquiring a mushroom in first place makes the Blue Shell and shortcuts in general a lot more fair in MK Wii.

So . . . . you think that constantly attacking the leader and preventing them from using any item strategy is fair?

Likewise you can acquire red shells in first place, so taking the lead before the end of the race doesn't really specifically punish you in MK Wii.

Except for the spiny army.

Also, the Pow Block is generally a decent item that also generally reduces the advantage of being in a specific place.

Or in other words, it removes item strategy for no particular benefit.

I'll give special mention to MK DD for having a good idea for items, but it's pretty horribly imbalanced in multiplayer on the premise that the best items (Triple Shells) can be consistently occupied by hogging the two characters that use them.

The specials are actually pretty even in usefulness:

Mario & Luigi: A stream of fireballs which work like 5 shells being thrown at once either forwards or backwards (range: as high as 1st)
Donkey & Diddy: A giant banana that becomes three more bananas when struck (range: as high as 1st)
Bowser & BJr.: A giant shell which can be used to stage hog tight quarters. (range: as high as 1st)
Yoshi & Birdo: An egg that homes in the opponent, unlike the red shell, it will follow the track if thrown from 1st, and explode into three items, which can be a banana, bob-omb, mushroom, or star. (range: as high as 1st)
Koopa & Paratroopa: Triple Shells, if you get hit by an item, you'll lose all but one of them. (range for greens: as high as 1st. range for reds: as high as 4th[ish])
Peach & Daisy: Item protection against two weapons, of which you can use for your own will. (range: as high as 1st)
Toad & Toadette: Golden Mushroom (range: as high a 5th[ish])
Baby Mario & Luigi: A Chain Chomp which drags you along behind it, it kind of works like a giant star on auto-pilot that can also be used to get back on some of the tracks. (range: as high as 6th)
Petey & Boo: Everything

IMO the best special is the Egg, you can get them in the lead, throw them, then find their crash site and take any mushrooms/stars you find. The triple shells are actually pretty bad in MK:DD because one hit will automatically make you lose all but one of them, unless you get triple reds, which require you to be a pretty decent distance from the lead. Though Petey and Boo are broken due to the fact that they can get any item, there aren't that many viable heavyweight karts.

Character imbalances suck. No denying that. It's been the trend for virtually every Mario Kart game as I recall though. In a game where the objective is pretty one dimensional, it's just gonna happen if you make the cast drastically different.

I kind of agree with this, but the balance in MK64, MK:SC, MKDD, [and especially] MKDS was pretty good in competitive play. In the last one, all karts are obtainable by ANY driver. So you can have a heavyweight in a light kart, etc. normally. MKWii's tiers are also pretty well spaced, it's not like it's a continous line of who's better or not, there are definite cliffs in the two top tier sections. (I just wish that in MK3DS [or later], they'd give you a "setup mode" which allows you to use "stat points" to determine which stats get the most use. That way karts could feel the way the player wants them to and the drivers wouldn't need different stats (except weight and offroad power, which would get higher for heavyweights and lightweighs respectively, but not strongly effect the usability)

Yeah some of the tracks don't have too many turns, but that doesn't mean the terrain isn't tricky.

Subject to opinion, I won't argue for or against this because it's a matter of taste for the most part.

If you want to beat someone good in MK Wii, you have to have good command over the terrain

True, but it's hard to do so when you constantly lose your items to Spinies and POW Blocks (which can leave you defenseless against red shells and the like), and direct shoving is pretty pointless with bikes.

especially when obstacles are factored (besides wheelies, a big reason why bikes are better than karts due to being smaller).

Actually, it's more-or-less because they can turn more sharply than karts too, rather than the fact that they are smaller.

Due to jump and trick mechanics and the associated commitments required for those, it's not always simple to take shortcuts in MK Wii.

Semi-agreed, but it was [subjectively] harder to snake into them at the proper angle in MK64, MKSC (yes, this had snaking too), MKDD, and MKDS.

MK Wii by far has more complicated jumps than any other Mario Kart, and abusing them optimally requires skill.

True, but this came at the cost of losing snaking's usefulness, which could be done the entire race and also required optimal timing and angles when doing it over jumps.

In fact, SMK doesn't even have "real" jumps. Jump abuse in SMK is for the most part retardedly easy to do since mode7 on the SNES can only do so much.

Well, even though the jumps were painted on the layer, you could still "fall through" them, Mario Circuit 2 crosses over itself, so that coudl be considered a "real" jump. I do agree it was too easy though since the shells just die at any jump, even if their speed would suggest they could make it. (It was most likely just easier to not program to cross it, though they could have just made it so that it works like normal terrain for them. *shrugs*)

Generally speaking, the terrain in MK Wii is much less simple than the terrain in other MKs

I disagree here, I can name several instances in past games where the terrain is more varied.

and while abuseable, requires skill to do.

That's true in the other Mario Karts too.

Take Rainbow Road. While you can do a lot of tricks on the rippling part of the track near the beginning, actually hitting the speed boost ramp correctly at the end and being able to make the jump across the middle of the half pipe area is alone more complicated than the majority of what the MK series has to offer.

You really should try playing SMK Rainbow Road at 150cc if you believe this is the case, there are no guardrails, and you have to make a turn a second on AVERAGE, not to mention the Thwomps can make you spin out, most of Mario Kart Super Circuit is more complicated than anything Mario Kart Wii has, of course, it doesn't help that they included the worst course from MKSC (Shy Guy Beach, which is virtually a square) and made Bowser's Castle 3 too large in MKWii (it's nearly 50% larger and longer), otherwise it would be a bit more apparent. DD's DK Mountain (which was included as a retro course in MKWii) is by far the most demanding course in MWii, even though that wasn't the case in the game it originated from.

MK DD and MK DS do kinda try to implement fancy terrain in their courses (not nearly to the extent MK Wii does), but technical shortcuts and instances of skilled terrain abuse are much less common.

I agree about Double Dash (mostly because there wasn't that much offroad terrain period, not even in Dino Dino Jungle), but Mario Kart DS's metagame is strongly based on terrain abuse, which can be done on all of the tracks except MKDD Baby Park.

As I recall, the shortcuts you are mentioning are a result of glitches involving someone from the development team failing to properly define where a wall should actually exist, and outside of that, most of the courses in other MKs are fairly linear. The many many shortcuts in MK Wii however aside from Grumble Volcano abuse are pretty much all a result of smart design.

For the former, that's only true about the Luigi's Raceway one:

The Spiral Jump @64RR (It may look like he went through it, but he did clear it if you pause, and it's even more visible that you clear the fence if you aim for the stretch of track BEFORE the spiral)
MKSC RR This isn't a glitch, he lands perfectly on all of the edges, which are designed to launch you upwards.
MKSC YD The speedpads let you skim over water in this game, and there's a jump pad near the end.

I disagree about the "smart design" thing, most of the shortcuts are either just minor corner cutters, extremely blatant designs (probably the only one that is well hidden is the one in Wario's Gold Mine, and it has a piece of track that points in it's direction and a speed pad visible from the main course), or lap ticking tricks. The only shortcuts I'd consider to be based on "smart-design" that AREN'T blatant, would be the corner-cutting patches, the U-turn skip at Mushroom Gorge, the true [not the wall glitch, lap-ticking variant] shortcut at the beginning of that course, the one on Daisy Circuit's final turn, and possibly the one off of the lone peak in Grumble Volcano. The ones at DK Pass and Rainbow Road were most likely unintentional because you can drive up a patch of NETTING in the former and U-turn off of that, and in the latter, the shortcut is formed in such a way that you can clip the ledge occasionally if you attempt it, which shouldn't happen if it was intentional.

The change to the mini turbo system isn't really what I'd call dumbing down. It's timing dependent, and it takes just as much skill to judge the proper time to do an optimal mini turbo in MK Wii as it does to swivel in any other MK game. The only real difference is it's simpler if you're playing conservatively.

I can't really argue with that, it is the main reason that karts aren't as good as bikes though, if snaking was possible at more than a select few points, the power of the kart's mini-turbo (which is twice as strong as the bikes') would be more pronounced.

Also, playing this game with a Wii Wheel is simply amazing.

Agreed, though it took a while for me to get used to the "limit" you could turn the wheel, because if you go beyond that limit, your kart/bike could suddenly make a sharp turn in the opposite direction, but it didn't take me that long to figure out how far I could turn it, so I guess that's not really an issue.

I used to be really into time trials for MK DS...I do think some of my times are fairly impressive in that game. I need more friends to play in MK DS and Wii...I want to get back into my groove for this series.

I still play MKDS online, if your's is compatible with your router we could always go against each other, I do have to warn you though, my Wifi Rating is 600+-to-30.
[/collapse]

 

[Jimmyfosho]

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Its.... So.... Powerful!!!

 

[Inferno3044]

I wonder if A2 is going to reply.

 

[Matt07]

I loved 'Snaking' in Mario Kart DS although it was looked down by a lot of people (I myself too at times), it made the game a lot more faster paced.

 

[A2ZOMG]

One of the primary differences between MK Wii and the multiplayer of any other MarioKart is that there is more players on at a time. This is probably why you feel item comboing is a huge deal. While it may be less common in MK DS where wifi only permits a maximum of 4 players and quite often you'll end up in a 1v1 match, being in 2nd place in those matches is much stronger in MK DS than it is in MK Wii.

Honestly the Thunder Cloud is really the only item I don't care for. Blue Shells are annoying, but there's generally more speed boost opportunities on more of the tracks to regain momentum, and mushrooms are also more common. I guess the only thing you can't do in MK Wii is avoid Blue Shells with a mini turbo like you can in MKDS.

POW blocks are not a bad thing. They don't really slow you down much, and removing the items of every player on the racetrack depolarizes item strategies in general. For MK wii where smart use of the items has very obvious results, the Pow block is an acceptable addition in my book.

MK64 tiers are pretty distinct as well, making the lightweights not just the fastest in general, but having the highest acceleration and handling abilities. For competitive purposes, that's veeeeery bad balance design.

MKDS allowing every character to use every kart doesn't count for tiers if you ask me. The karts that belong to every specific character are probably by far some of the worst balanced karts in the MK series. They go so far as making a high Drift stat counterproductive in the vast majority of situations. If you're using Dry Bones and the Egg kart, you might as well just be using Yoshi in my book, minus the slight weight discrepancy.

MK DD kinda does accomplish balance better than the other games, since Kart weight does kinda matter in tight races in singles. For normal races, Boo Pipes is actually pretty practical despite normally being bad in time trials. The game still has a huge emphasis on lightweight karts in general though.

At any rate though, balance is something Mario Kart never has been good at. I can't speak for super circuit since I've never played it though.

For SMK Rainbow Road, saying that a track is complicated just because of turns is an overstatement. Turns alone aren't difficult as long as you know the mechanics behind them, (and honestly turns and sliding mechanics in SMK are simply counter intuitive just because it's mode7, not exactly hard if you just know how the spacing works). The track is fairly static outside of the mentioned thwomps, but like in every MK, you get fair warning as to where the thwomps are coming up, so avoiding them isn't a truly huge issue.

What Mario Kart Wii has is dynamic terrain and shortcuts involving it. On such courses, taking the shortcut exactly the way you intended like last lap is not always as clear cut, and that part of the game requires more of an experience demand than other MKs of the series. Rainbow Road was my first example. Abusing half pipe jumps optimally is also precision dependent to the extreme especially on DK Summit. On Toad's factory, maneuvering around obstacles is something that's fairly hard to do on a memorization basis.

One of the things that's really awful about MKDS is how only a few karts can take certain terrain abuse shortcuts. In MK Wii there's really not many kart specific abuses on the racetracks. While you can call it fair game in competitive play, I'm not a fan of bad designer oversights like that. While it still doesn't change that MK Wii has bad character balance, the shortcuts in MK Wii are generally speaking applicable to everyone.

I believe in shortcuts being obvious, but requiring technical skill and an ability to adapt to accomplish. Hiding shortcuts cleverly only makes the game more gimmicky and less inclusive to incoming players. In that aspect, that is one of the main reasons why I prefer Mario Kart Wii over other titles of the series. There's a high distribution of obvious shortcuts and time saving tricks, and the majority of them require skill and good reactions to abuse (technically you could try memorizing some of the patterns of dynamic elements at specific time checkpoints, but that's mostly stupid impractical especially in normal races). Back when I did time trials in MK DS, sure I can appreciate that keeping up Snaking and perfect turns for two minute stretches is technically taxing, but the courses themselves are generally linear, and there isn't much in the name of reacting to anything dynamic on most of the MK DS tracks.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Bowser is top tier in Mario Kart

Oh god, what have I done?

 

[hippiedude92]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=291249

mario da bess in mk banned tourneys

also kirinblaze is the best clutch mario in the history of smash.

*insert soon to be vid*

 

[A2ZOMG]

Go Kirin!

Any word on the stagelist for the MK banned tournament? Something that occurred to me is that when you ban MK, a lot of stages instantly become 9001x more fair.

I would for example consider Halberd more fair than FD in an MK banned tournament.

 

[Inferno3044]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=291249

mario da bess in mk banned tourneys

also kirinblaze is the best clutch mario in the history of smash.

*insert soon to be vid*

Good job at getting first with Dabuz in teams. Also Good **** for teaming with him. He's mad good.

One more thing: why is there no mario next to your name?

 

[hippiedude92]

Go Kirin!

Any word on the stagelist for the MK banned tournament? Something that occurred to me is that when you ban MK, a lot of stages instantly become 9001x more fair.

I would for example consider Halberd more fair than FD in an MK banned tournament.

stardard stuff, tho i think we kept LGL altho it didnt really matter since no one doesnt really plank and **** in our region

and the only thing is that, pictochat is becoming more stardard here now.

edit: this is why kirinblaze is da bess mario.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cARzjuYa-s0

CALL HIM CAPTAIN CLUTCH PPL

edit: also if any1 hasnt seen's anti's mario, it's def true; black people use mario and ****.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpIG96vOJIc

namesearchbait.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Oh ****, Kirin weaving through Lucario's fsmashes like they were killer bees or something!

 

[A2ZOMG]

Kirin plays sooooo safe and his ability to weave in and out of range is nothing less than pro. Mad props.

 

[SKidd]

Funky + Flame runner is all you need in MKWii to win

 

[Kanzaki]

In Melee, everybody knew about Ice Climber's infinite grab for years, how ever, Wobbles was the first to use it extensively. Therefore Ice Climber's infinite was renamed to "Wobbling".

Ever since the player "Plank" first stalled, the term for stalling was renamed to "Planking".


From this post onwards, I now deem "wall of texts", as the "A2Zing".

 

[JuxtaposeX]

^ I second that motion. But how does one pronounce it?
Aie-Too-Zee-ing?
Aie-Two-Zing?
Ah-too-zing?

 

[Kanzaki]

I like pronouncing it like this:
A - Like the letter "A"
2 - Like the number "2"
Zing - Zing!

 

[JuxtaposeX]

**** fast reply....

 

[Inferno3044]

So Kirin is a member of the BBR. Good for him!

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

I retired from Mario Kart Wii w/ 9300 BP, my Wii won't read my MKW disc so I moved on and focus on Brawl.

 

[hippiedude92]

ily kirin blaze

u da bess

 

[Fire!]

That's just awesome. Strange, but awesome.

 

[Coolwhip]

Good stuff kirin.

 

[KirinBlaze]

Thanks guys. :D

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

*appluses for Kirin and gives him a thumbs up*

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Go make Mario top of low tier Kirin!

 

[KirinBlaze]

He's pretty Mid Tier, imo. Neat the bottom of it.
Link is toward the Top of Low Tier imo too.

 

[HeroMystic]

So Kirin is a member of the BBR. Good for him!

Nicely done, Kirin.

 

[Matt07]

Congrats at your placings Hippie, and Kirin.

Also grats to Kirin for becoming a BBR member!

At Hero - Day9 ftw.

 

[Fire!]

His name looks pretty legit in purple.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

His name looks pretty legit in purple.

I agree, good stuff Kirin

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Good stuff Kirin. I'm glad SOMEBODY from this board finally got in there. I was thinking about applying myself but with my lack of activity in the scene lately I didn't really see a point.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Looking cool with that cape and purple name

 

[A2ZOMG]

For the longest time I knew Kirin was easily qualified for that title...he knows his **** and beats people with BOTH Mario and Link. You can't get much more hardcore than that.

 

[Inferno3044]

For the longest time I knew Kirin was easily qualified for that title...he knows his **** and beats people with BOTH Mario and Link. You can't get much more hardcore than that.

I beat people with Tom Nook. BBR please.

 

[hippiedude92]

He's pretty Mid Tier, imo. Neat the bottom of it.
Link is toward the Top of Low Tier imo too.

ohhhhhh godd the purple name


UNRANKED RANDOM -> RANKED BBR?


****

LOOOOOOOOOOOL

aib warrior *****es

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

I didn't know u was a aib warrior. *chews on bubble gum*