Making the Tier List Official.

[Pink Reaper]

Dont forget that Fair that lets him play mid stage at least somewhat well.

 

[Tero.]

If the placebo list is just a rough draw we don't actually need to break those ties, do we?

It also doesn't matter if Roy is placed in crap tier or in even-more-crap tier so why don't we just go ahead and post it?

 

[Pink Reaper]

Ok, well since there dont seem to be any real objections, anyone want to take the initiative and post it? I was thinking of having Drugged do it.

 

[SleepyK]

I'll do it. Gimme gimme, i'll post it om nom nom

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'd like to post it just to add the ambiguity of it. But someone else should probably do it for that very reason.

 

[Mew2King]

M2K's tier list

Jiggs
Falco
Fox (I think Falco is better)

Sheik

Marth

Peach
C.falcon

ICs

Doc
Ganon

DK

Samus
Pikachu
Luigi
Mario

Link
YLink
Roy
Zelda
GW

Yoshi
Mewtwo/Pichu (Pichu can auto-win on FD vs spacies cuz of CGs, and nair combo characters across the stage / tech chase them with it)
Bowser

Ness/Kirby (worst 2 by far)

 

[Pink Reaper]

Ignoring m2k, posting the Tier List right now would be kind of difficult i guess as theres no active mods to unsticky the old one and put up our new one. Whichever one of you guys can pin down Victra/Tec0 or whoever feel free to take the opportunity

 

[Druggedfox]

Are we officially keeping these ties in place, or should we resolve them? If we're keeping the ties in place, then we should go ahead and post it.

 

[KirbyKaze]

k it's done ******s

i got it unstickied

edit: if someone wants to post the placebo list now...

 

[Pink Reaper]

**** it, go for it KK

 

[KirbyKaze]

only question i'm going to ask is

are we ordering the top 3 or are we leaving them clumped together?

edit: nvm clumped it is

 

[KirbyKaze]

for this draft i'm putting zelda above mewtwo because i feel like it

 

[Pink Reaper]

Go for it. It's just the rough draft anyways lol

 

[pockyD]

i wasn't keeping up

can someone summarize the argument(s) in favor of posting a half-***** list?

 

[Tero.]

last page.

Actually I still don't get why we want to do that, probably I just missed something?

Mostly because from the looks of it we're a long time out from actually completing the tier list. The placebo idea is mostly a face saving thing to make up for the fact that we're already 2 years out from the last list and not really even certain of what to do with the list now.

Think of it as the rough draft list we'll be submitting. There's not anything hugely wrong with it but there are things that can be fixed. We give the Melee community this one to tide them over and generate more discussion while we fix the few kinks left in this list and make it a true Tier List.

 

[Skler]

Should we have a M2 vs Zelda thread in the MBR? I think that would be great.

 

[Druggedfox]

In the MBR? Why not put one in MD and sticky it at the top =PPPP

 

[Mew2King]

my list is perfect

 

[KevinM]

Again ignoring M2K I think we should start debating the lists even with that out.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Agreed

If nothing else we should work towards eliminating the current ties we have in the upper tiers.

 

[Mew2King]

YOU STUPID IDIOT *******ES LISTEN TO MY ****ING LiST

diddy is top 2

snakes overrated

falco is OBVIOUSLY rank 3 undisputably right now

Wario Diddy Olimar are debatable in any order

marth after

 

[Tero.]

Top
Jigglypuff
Diddy
Falco

High
Snake
Wario
Olimar
Fox

Upper
Marth
Sheik
Peach

someone go edit our tier list, we were terribly on placing Fox/Falco/Puff on top.
M2K said it.

 

[Mew2King]

ur a stupid noob dummy

 

[Luma]

tero knows his ****

 

[Druggedfox]

Hey...

We should actually get on this now. Before making the tier list, we should of course decide on the procedure that we're going to use to make it. Several people seemed to like the matchup chart idea, but several others either disagreed or left no comment. We should go ahead and decide on a procedure so that we can actually begin... this thread is turning into nothing better than MD.

 

[Tero.]

*digs out his post from several pages ago*

I am entirely in favor of creating a match-up chart and making a clear definition about how important each factor is for a characters placing within the tier list (like 1/3 match-ups 1/3 results 1/3 character potential for example).

We also should consider redoing the whole viable/non-viable vote because a) we have new members (and a few more should get added soon) and b) the general opinion on some characters (namely Mario and Pikachu) might have changed due to recent events/results.

If we're doing everything scrupulously we might also decide which ruleset we're considering for the MU chart (standard MBR ruleset I guess?), as we all know stages/counterpicks are not neglectable for determining the MU ratio.

Altogether it looks like we've got plenty of things to do until we can actually start voting on the tier list, let alone finish it. It should go something like this:

(1. Decide which ruleset we're going to use)
2. Voting on viable/non-viable
3. Create a MU chart using the characters voted as viable
4. Make a clear definition of standards

finally we can actually vote on the upper part and decide what we're going to do with the lower part of the list.

We also might want to apply the results of the voting against a potentially calculated number from the MU chart as well as the findings of the character ranking topic (aka results).

Even though some people don't agree with using a match-up chart as part of the tier list decision I still think it would be a good thing to do even if we don't need/use it.

 

[Pink Reaper]

This isnt as much of a response to your idea as it is just a general post Tero.

I dont like the match up chart idea for a few reasons. Not the least of which are the really subjective/close match ups. As it is we would have to give more weight to high tier match ups anyways since no one really cares if Sheik ***** everything in the lower tiers but still loses to Falco. From there you have to think about characters who are in generally the same area in terms of poor match ups. If both Sheik and Falco only have one bad match up, whether or not those match ups are 45/55 or 40/60 suddenly becomes a huge deal because it could be the deciding factor of "Who's better"

There's also the fact that match ups arent static in Melee. Marth/Falcon on FD is different from Marth/Falcon on Yoshi Story is different from Marth/Falcon on DL 64 making it even harder to pin down exact stats for any given match up.

I dont necessarily think we shouldnt consider match ups, obviously match ups are important but i dont want to give them too much weight as it can cause too much problems.

 

[Druggedfox]

If there's no disagreement to the chart itself, why not go ahead and make it? If the chart proves to cause too many problems, we can assign it less/little weight in the actual making of the tier list. On the other hand, if we think we've come up with a solid chart that doesn't seem to have any issues, then we can of course assign it a lot of weight in the making of the tier list.

Either way, this doesn't seem like a bad place to start.

 

[hungrybox]

Um.

What are we doing with the current list I posted? There's mad debate over it.

 

[Tero.]

Um.

What are we doing with the current list I posted? There's mad debate over it.

Didn't we already knew that before we posted it?
Obviously we're not going to do anything with the current list and start working on the new one.

 

[Marc]

To be honest I'm not sure posting that tier list was such a great idea. It's mostly HBox' opinion (with all due respect) and while I agree with it a lot for the order, we can do better than ties. As it is, it's just not very interesting.

There are several ideas, but the only way to get out of this mess is for someone to say "this is what we are going to do". Deciding on a procedure shouldn't take longer than actually carrying it out. Also note we could make a tier list and work on a matchup chart at the same time. The projects shouldn't be merged until the matchup chart actually works out.

 

[hungrybox]

...right.

Now what?

 

[Marc]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=288035

 

[Tero.]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=288035

working fine, isn't it?

(:

 

[Marc]

Slhoka said he's on it. =/

 

[Slhoka]

Slhoka said he's on it. =/

And that's true.
I just couldn't get the memberlist yet.

It will be done before you know it

 

[SleepyK]

it takes two Europeans
to make the American tier list

thanks so much you two.

 

[Druggedfox]

it takes two Europeans
to make the American tier list

thanks so much you two.

American outsourcing... to europe now? Awww yeah; even in smash

 

[Marc]

Ha, just thank us after it gets done. Also start thinking on other things you would like to see in this room. While productivity won't be forced, more will be done to accomodate those who want to be more active. Going over the member list now that it's fully up to date and recommending people more proactively would also be helpful, unless you're content with the current membership.