-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Making the Tier List Official.
- Thread starter hungrybox
- Start date
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
When I brought this up in the other tier list thread a while ago, the numbers I proposed as lower and upper bounds for the chart were 11 and 15, respectively. 11, because I think each of the top 11 characters undoubtedly warrants representation; 15, because at that point we'd be discussing 105 match-ups, which is rather excessive.
On another note, I like charts since my intuitive idea of what a tier list should be is something that tells you how "good" the characters are relative to each other, and I see no better way of determining that than looking at how they perform against each other.
On another note, I like charts since my intuitive idea of what a tier list should be is something that tells you how "good" the characters are relative to each other, and I see no better way of determining that than looking at how they perform against each other.
D
Deleted member
Guest
okay, but just to interject, the viable characters are viable because a MU chart affects them the least? if you know what you're getting into, I have confidence in your judgment and I say go for it.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Can someone define "potential" for me? Like, people keep presenting this triangle type deal of Matchups, Potential, and Results.
Does Potential mean like, unrealistic potential? Human potential? I've just never been sure what it meant.
Does Potential mean like, unrealistic potential? Human potential? I've just never been sure what it meant.
The potential for people to stop losing to Mango and HBox and because of it start thinking whichever character started winning everything is now suddenly da bess character in da whorl
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
So, unattainable potential?
Mango will quit soon, he's playing Mario FFS he obviously doesnt care any more. HBox will continue to win for a while but he's no where near Mango's level, he'll start losing eventually. More than likely it will be someone like PP who ends up dominating in force and suddenly Falco will be the best character in the game. God we suck as a community.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
So, unattainable potential?
edit: I'd just like to do away with tournament results entirely but w/e that will never happen.
edit: I'd just like to do away with tournament results entirely but w/e that will never happen.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
@KK
That used to be my mindset: get rid of tournament results entirely. At the same time, I don't feel entirely comfortable doing that if I don't think of a way to represent the current metagame as a whole. Our perceptions of matchups are more or less fairly static over time, especially recently. I personally don't like tournament results, but there has to be some way to represent the metagame as it is now; I'm open to any ideas on that, but discarding them without a substitute seems to piss the point of a tier list reflecting the metagame as is, which is the whole point of making a new tier list.
That used to be my mindset: get rid of tournament results entirely. At the same time, I don't feel entirely comfortable doing that if I don't think of a way to represent the current metagame as a whole. Our perceptions of matchups are more or less fairly static over time, especially recently. I personally don't like tournament results, but there has to be some way to represent the metagame as it is now; I'm open to any ideas on that, but discarding them without a substitute seems to piss the point of a tier list reflecting the metagame as is, which is the whole point of making a new tier list.
hungrybox
Smash Legend
Skler
Smash Master
You're way above him in joke telling, Hbox.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
That would mean you should be able to defeat everyone with many characters. =P
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
*****es don't know 'bout dat pocket falco. Just wait, Hbox, you're winning Pound V with falco right? 
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
If we're just going to alter the tier list for whoever is winning tournaments at the given time, why don't we just release
Puff
Falco
Fox
Peach
Sheik
Marth
Falcon
Ice Climbers
Ganon
Samus
Pikachu
Mewtwo
Doc
Mario
Other characters in some order
If/When PP starts winning everything we'll just put Falco above Puff
Puff
Falco
Fox
Peach
Sheik
Marth
Falcon
Ice Climbers
Ganon
Samus
Pikachu
Mewtwo
Doc
Mario
Other characters in some order
If/When PP starts winning everything we'll just put Falco above Puff
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Because we wouldn't do it to such an extreme that tournament results directly dictate the tier list directly.
For example, let's say we do this matchup chart and we end up with marth and falco having equally good matchups. Once again, emphasis on example. If that was the case, it wouldn't make sense to place marth above falco considering tournament results. The fact that falco has representation that beats marth in both number of players and tournament placings would obviously send a signal to put falco above marth, despite their matchups being equally good.
Entirely excluding tournament results misses the point of a tier list representing the current metagame.
For example, let's say we do this matchup chart and we end up with marth and falco having equally good matchups. Once again, emphasis on example. If that was the case, it wouldn't make sense to place marth above falco considering tournament results. The fact that falco has representation that beats marth in both number of players and tournament placings would obviously send a signal to put falco above marth, despite their matchups being equally good.
Entirely excluding tournament results misses the point of a tier list representing the current metagame.
Yeah, no pressure or anything.....
I've never really liked using representation for characters in tier discussions because I don't think there's really enough representation for any/most characters and some of the characters we know are higher up don't get much at all so it always feels pretty biased to me(people always citing Falco because he's doing well or discrediting Marth because we don't see much of him[M2K likes to switch a lot] at the top at all these days).
I really like matchup charts but I'm pretty cool with that idea KK had about 1/3 charts 1/3 results and 1/3 potential(unless I misinterpreted?). It's interesting.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
edit@ Druggedfox
It is possible to represent how good one's options are in the current metagame with a match-up chart if all of the data is up-to-date.
If two characters somehow do end up having equal standing in accordance with the chart, then I would be content saying they are equally good characters, although you could also use their match-ups against lesser characters that aren't being represented as a means of breaking a tie. That one character may out-represent another in tourney results can reflect a number of minor factors aside from how good the character is, such as relative ease of use, groupthink concerning the current metagame, how fun/boring a character may be, etc. Of course, it's perfectly fine (and it would be stupid not to) to look at the modern tourney scene to aid our judgment pertaining match-ups, but I'm not comfortable with letting a character's popularity at a high level on its own affect how we rank him/her/it.
I also want to repeat that my idea of a tier list is something that ranks the characters in accordance with how good they are and that I see no better way of doing this than looking at how they perform against each other, just so you know what I'm aiming for here. What exactly do you think a tier list should represent?
It is possible to represent how good one's options are in the current metagame with a match-up chart if all of the data is up-to-date.
If two characters somehow do end up having equal standing in accordance with the chart, then I would be content saying they are equally good characters, although you could also use their match-ups against lesser characters that aren't being represented as a means of breaking a tie. That one character may out-represent another in tourney results can reflect a number of minor factors aside from how good the character is, such as relative ease of use, groupthink concerning the current metagame, how fun/boring a character may be, etc. Of course, it's perfectly fine (and it would be stupid not to) to look at the modern tourney scene to aid our judgment pertaining match-ups, but I'm not comfortable with letting a character's popularity at a high level on its own affect how we rank him/her/it.
I also want to repeat that my idea of a tier list is something that ranks the characters in accordance with how good they are and that I see no better way of doing this than looking at how they perform against each other, just so you know what I'm aiming for here. What exactly do you think a tier list should represent?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Peepee, I can edit my post to "Armada" if you like.
Also, I never suggested anything involving results or potential. I asked someone to define potential because it's not well defined yet somehow works its way into these discussions periodically.
Also, I never suggested anything involving results or potential. I asked someone to define potential because it's not well defined yet somehow works its way into these discussions periodically.
I think we should just put Falcon at the top of the tier list in anticipation of Silent Spectre becoming the new number one in the world.
Also, for right now I think we might as well publish HBox's list as the official. The majority will accept it as they always do and there will be some arguing about stuff that's ********(Mewtwo vs Zelda, Pichu Vs Ness Vs Kirby, anything that has to do with Sveet) A placebo mostly, just something to shut the masses up so we can give ourselves more time to figure out exactly what it is we want to do with this thing.
Also, for right now I think we might as well publish HBox's list as the official. The majority will accept it as they always do and there will be some arguing about stuff that's ********(Mewtwo vs Zelda, Pichu Vs Ness Vs Kirby, anything that has to do with Sveet) A placebo mostly, just something to shut the masses up so we can give ourselves more time to figure out exactly what it is we want to do with this thing.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Did no one else laugh at a falco player saying "no pressure"??? =/ Guess it was just me who found that amusing xD
@Flyamanita
Personally, I'm fine with matchup chart solely. In fact, matchup chart only would probably make the tier list look a lot more like how I want it to look.
I guess as to what I feel the tier list should represent... simply what you said, with an emphasis on the metagame as it is now. If we're able to successfully discuss matchups in light of the current metagame, then that could certainly be sufficient. It's just that I am worried a matchup chart might create a skewed view of how smash looks today, because of underrepresentation etc.
If it's strictly about how good the characters are, then a matchup chart alone, in theory, should work. I suppose we'll just look at the end result and see what it looks like?
I have a feeling there's going to be a few serious disagreements on matchups here and there, but I suppose as soon as the new members are accepted (per what Tero was saying?) we can start?
@Flyamanita
Personally, I'm fine with matchup chart solely. In fact, matchup chart only would probably make the tier list look a lot more like how I want it to look.
I guess as to what I feel the tier list should represent... simply what you said, with an emphasis on the metagame as it is now. If we're able to successfully discuss matchups in light of the current metagame, then that could certainly be sufficient. It's just that I am worried a matchup chart might create a skewed view of how smash looks today, because of underrepresentation etc.
If it's strictly about how good the characters are, then a matchup chart alone, in theory, should work. I suppose we'll just look at the end result and see what it looks like?
I have a feeling there's going to be a few serious disagreements on matchups here and there, but I suppose as soon as the new members are accepted (per what Tero was saying?) we can start?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I'm good with the idea of a placebo list.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Releasing one tier list now and then releasing another one in the not-too-distant future seems like an odd thing to do, although I'm not necessarily opposed to it.
I doubt that the end results would stray from the usual sort of lists that we see all the time since I do think the characters' placements in those lists already correlates decently well with how good their match-ups are.
That's assuming we actually manage to get a new, more fleshed out one done in the not-too-distant future.
Before making a tier list, I think we should clearly define what the tier list represents. Potential? Character placing in tourneys? Effect on the current metagame? Matchup-ratio based?
I realize all tier list are a mix of those, but since everyone has different opinions on what the ratio is for these, you often get different tier list. Might want to debate which of these are more importants than others.
I realize all tier list are a mix of those, but since everyone has different opinions on what the ratio is for these, you often get different tier list. Might want to debate which of these are more importants than others.
Skler
Smash Master
I think a placebo list would be awesome. That way we get double the controversy, once when it comes out and again when the real one comes out and we move mewtwo above zelda omg.
Can we just ban Sveet from posting on a tier thread ever?
Can we just ban Sveet from posting on a tier thread ever?
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
I should hope they don't stray too far, i'm just not particularly certain.
@Swordgard, it seems most people are settling more towards simply:
-how well the characters perform against each other
-potential to some extent
Potential is only sort of the balance of what we know is possible in the game vs what is happening now. It's more or less, imo, why we just tell people to be quiet when they start saying fox isn't top tier. Of course, this could also be remedied with a matchup chart... so maybe that's all we need.
hungrybox
Smash Legend
Reading the past dozen or so pages, here are the few changes I believe the list could use.
Roy placed at Bottom of Bottom, but not garbage.
Yoshi placed at the top of Garbage.
DK/Luigi/Link at bottom of Low.
"Garbage" tier renamed to "Negligible".
Top tier should remain with the three slashes. If it were up to me I'd have Fox/Falco on top of Jigglypuff in Top Tier, but that's up for discussion.
So, tell me what you guys think about the Boldfaced changes, and if agreed, I decree that we get Umbreon to post and sticky the official 2010 tier list.
Umbreon cant sticky **** what with the lack of mod powers.
If there's anything I'd like to propose it's moving IC's up to High Tier. They're just too good to be considered in the same tier as Ganon/Samus/Doc.
Moving Roy doesnt really concern me, no matter which of the bottom tiers he's in he's still garbage. At the end of the day a move up would only really satiate the roy players themselves and maybe ICG idk, that guys weird he seems like the kind of person who would care.
I'd also like to see low tier be
Pika
Mario
those other guys all right here
I think everyone's too caught up in the Mango hype to really notice this but if you compare the only Pika that matters(axe) to the only mario that matters(mario) you'd see Axe has a bit of a leg up on Mango, which is more than a little surprising when you consider that despite how good axe is(i love you axe<3) mango is most definitely better.
I dont remember who said it but I agree with the statement: "Mario is the character that made Mango start losing" we really should remember that.
If there's anything I'd like to propose it's moving IC's up to High Tier. They're just too good to be considered in the same tier as Ganon/Samus/Doc.
Moving Roy doesnt really concern me, no matter which of the bottom tiers he's in he's still garbage. At the end of the day a move up would only really satiate the roy players themselves and maybe ICG idk, that guys weird he seems like the kind of person who would care.
I'd also like to see low tier be
Pika
Mario
those other guys all right here
I think everyone's too caught up in the Mango hype to really notice this but if you compare the only Pika that matters(axe) to the only mario that matters(mario) you'd see Axe has a bit of a leg up on Mango, which is more than a little surprising when you consider that despite how good axe is(i love you axe<3) mango is most definitely better.
I dont remember who said it but I agree with the statement: "Mario is the character that made Mango start losing" we really should remember that.
Skler
Smash Master
Didn't Mango go straight mario, like no CPing or anything? The CPing may be the difference.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
No he went Cpt.Falcon also.. however anyone who knows the matchup well can faceroll both these characters anyway. Like Eggz! lol.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Actually, I'm pretty sure that was Falcon.
D
Deleted member
Guest
i don't want to post it. one of the newer guys should do it, establish some authority.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
As it's just a placebo list... does it particularly matter?
Btw, as for top tier arrangement... umbreon just posted that thread on what a tier list is. If it's about the likelihood of performing well in tournament, generally speaking at a high level, I see no reason it shouldn't simply be:
fox
falco
puff
Fox easily does the best overall in terms of rankings, number of players in bracket at large tourneys, etc. Falco comes in a close second, with multiple good placings across the board. Puff has pretty much hbox and darc, honestly. That in mind, hbox is dominating and darc always performs quite well.
If that's the criteria, and we plan on doing a matchup chart as soon as the placebo list is released...I don't see a problem, personally.
Btw, as for top tier arrangement... umbreon just posted that thread on what a tier list is. If it's about the likelihood of performing well in tournament, generally speaking at a high level, I see no reason it shouldn't simply be:
fox
falco
puff
Fox easily does the best overall in terms of rankings, number of players in bracket at large tourneys, etc. Falco comes in a close second, with multiple good placings across the board. Puff has pretty much hbox and darc, honestly. That in mind, hbox is dominating and darc always performs quite well.
If that's the criteria, and we plan on doing a matchup chart as soon as the placebo list is released...I don't see a problem, personally.
So, do we have any real objections to posting a placebo list? Cus i kinda want to get this done soonish.
Mostly because from the looks of it we're a long time out from actually completing the tier list. The placebo idea is mostly a face saving thing to make up for the fact that we're already 2 years out from the last list and not really even certain of what to do with the list now.
Think of it as the rough draft list we'll be submitting. There's not anything hugely wrong with it but there are things that can be fixed. We give the Melee community this one to tide them over and generate more discussion while we fix the few kinks left in this list and make it a true Tier List.
Think of it as the rough draft list we'll be submitting. There's not anything hugely wrong with it but there are things that can be fixed. We give the Melee community this one to tide them over and generate more discussion while we fix the few kinks left in this list and make it a true Tier List.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Edit: Pink Reaper beat me to it.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
i can agree with doc > pika > mario
doc's bair really changes everything (and more powerful down smash and much better projectile)
doc's bair really changes everything (and more powerful down smash and much better projectile)