Making the Tier List Official.

[hungrybox]

Thanks for the add to the backroom, firstly.


I posted a slightly modified version of KibryKaze's tier list in the Melee Discussion thread, and it is recieving good praise.

The issue is, there's quite a few slashes ("/") that indicate ties and so forth.

I believe our job at this point should be to take the tier list and, as best we can, settle the disputes. If need be, the slashes can stay, signifying the constant evolution of the metagame.

The List:

Top
Fox/Falco/Jigglypuff

High
Sheik
Marth


Upper
Peach/Falcon

Middle
Ice Climbers
Ganon/Samus
Doctor Mario

Low
Mario/Pikachu/DK/Luigi
Link

Bottom
Zelda/Mewtwo/Young Link

Garbage
Yoshi/Ness/Bowser/Roy/G&W/Kirby/Pichu

 

[KirbyKaze]

Hungrybox add me on aim.

kirbykaze3038

I want to talk to you about an idea.

 

[Mew2King]

1) Dr Mario is better than Samus/Ganondorf

please trust me on this

2) Roy is underrated and is certainly not garbage. He's around Zelda/YLs level

3) Kirby/Ness are the only 2 characters that should be in garbage tier

4) you are overrating Mewtwo. He is tied with Pichu/Bowser imo. I think he's awful, Taj is just really good with him

besides this, the list is perfect

make those 4 changes please

 

[AXE 09]

Interesting... I actually agree with almost the entire list lol. Here's just a few of my thoughts:

I feel that Fox is still #1. I think that he has the best matchup ratios for all 26 characters. I'm not too sure about which should be higher between Falco and Jiggs.

I think Peach should be above Falcon. I think Falcon has a slight advantage against Peach, but I feel that Peach does better against most of the cast than Falcon does.

Although I agree that IC's should be below both Peach and Falcon, I still think that they deserve to be in the same tier as them.

I think that Samus should be higher than Ganon, but then again I don't know all that much about both of these characters so don't attack me on this one lol.

Mario should be above Pikachu, and Pikachu should be above DK. I'm not sure where Luigi should fall in that whole mixup. I feel that Luigi should also be above Pikachu, but I'm not too sure where exactly.

I think YL should definitely be above both Zelda and Mewtwo. I think that M2's better than Zelda, and I also think that G&W should be in the same tier as Zelda/M2. I don't think that G&W is as bad as the "Garbage" tier characters.

I think the "Garbage" tier should go something like: Roy, Ness, Yoshi, Bowser, Kirby, then Pichu.


Well, there's all my thoughts.

 

[Wobbles]

It amuses me that ICs have once again found themselves at a solid 8th place on yet another person's list.

Carry on.

 

[Tero.]

I feel that Fox is still #1. I think that he has the best matchup ratios for all 26 characters. I'm not too sure about which should be higher between Falco and Jiggs.

If we consider all 26 characters Sheik has the best matchup ratios, we don't do this tho.

I agree with everything M2K said and with everything AXE said apart from Samus beeing above Ganon, I think Ganon is clearly better and is also doing better in tournaments.

Oh and I also don't think Mario should be LT, good thing Mango Scropion Master is showing this to people.

Edit:

Top
Fox/Falco/Jigglypuff

High
Sheik
Marth


Upper
Peach
Falcon
Ice Climbers

Middle
Doctor Mario
Ganon
Samus
Mario


Low
Pikachu
Luigi
DK
Link
Young Link

Bottom
Zelda/Roy/Mewtwo
Pichu/Bowser/Yoshi/G&W

Garbage
Ness/Kirby

 

[ArcNatural]

If we consider all 26 characters Sheik has the best matchup ratios, we don't do this tho.

I agree with everything M2K said and with everything AXE said apart from Samus beeing above Ganon, I think Ganon is clearly better and is also doing better in tournaments.

Oh and I also don't think Mario should be LT, good thing Mango Scropion Master is showing this to people.

Tero's list

I agree with said list. However, given that I play with Mofo and PC I find it hard to believe Ness is garbage. He may have some horrible matchups (Marth/Sheik) but he does ok vs a decent amount of the cast.

As much as I think Dr. Mario could be better than Ganon/Samus, I'm not sure I want to place him above Ganon until someone bothers to play him at that level. We are mixing between tourney placings and metagame correct?

My list (IMHO) would be:

Top
Fox/Falco/Jigglypuff

High
Sheik
Marth


Upper
Peach
Falcon
Ice Climbers (Forever 8th)

Middle
Ganon
Doctor Mario
Samus
Mario


Low
Pikachu
Luigi
DK
Link
Young Link

Bottom
Zelda/Roy/Mewtwo/Ness
Pichu/Bowser/Yoshi/G&W

Garbage
Kirby

And we should have a 1,2,3 vote or something to decide the top three like what was done before.

 

[Dogysamich]

Yo, somebody tell me how we're actually supposed to be forming said tierlist.

If it's based purely off of tourney results, then yeah, these ideas are going to have to change and some people's feelings are gunna be hurt.

If it's supposed to somehow involve matchups like some people want it to be, then some variation of this

Top
Fox/Falco/Jigglypuff

High
Sheik
Marth


Upper
Jiggs
Peach
Ice Climbers
Falcon

Middle
Ganon
Mario
Doctor Mario
Samus


Low
Pikachu
Luigi
DK
Young Link
Link


Bottom
Zelda/Roy/Mewtwo/Ness
Pichu/Bowser/Yoshi/G&W/Kirby

Is doable. Some variation of it.

Somewhere.

 

[Marc]

Matchupwise Fox is the best, even with the entire cast considered he has no bad matchups. Top tier matchups are more relevant anyway. Sheik is at the very least bad against Jiggs (and Peach in PAL).

S: Fox, Jigglypuff, Falco*
A: Sheik, Marth, Peach
B: Captain Falcon, Ice Climbers
C: Samus, Dr. Mario, Ganondorf
D: Luigi, Pikachu, Donkey Kong, Mario**
E: Link, Young Link, Roy***
F: Yoshi****, Zelda, Mr. Game & Watch, Mewtwo, Ness, Bowser
G: Pichu, Kirby

*Falco might be better off in a tier between S and A. None of his matchups are crippling, but he's likely to have several that are 45-55 or something.
**Mario does something for Mango none of his other characters do: make him lose. He's not completely bad, but shouldn't be in the same tier as Samus/Ganon/Doc.
***Roy definitely deserves more than bottom tier.
****I'd put Yoshi in E if this were PAL.

My opinion fluctuates a lot, as does the metagame, but I'm pretty confident in at least the top half's order. We could also opt to not order characters within tiers.

I'm not quite sure how we're supposed to tackle this project any more, so just consider this my input and make of it what you will.

 

[Mew2King]

I will go as far as to say that I think Falco is better than Fox and the only character possibly better than Jiggs

Falco's underrated

 

[Marc]

Despite being overrepresented Falco never takes anything and many people would argue he's at a small disadvantage against Peach, Jiggs, Marth and/or Sheik. If it's true for just one of those matchups it makes him worse than Fox and Jiggs, under the assumption it never gets worse than even for those two. People probably aren't playing Falco at 100% of his potential yet, but his metagame is pushed forward constantly because so many high level players use him.

 

[Mew2King]

I can't speak for Jiggs and Peach but I can speak for marth and Sheik, and Falco beats them at the highest level of play. I used to think Marth had the advantage but at the highest level of play he definitely does not. Sheik gets comboed too hard If fox hits sheik/marth he doesn't combo them nearly as hard as if Falco hits Sheik/Marth. In fact, 2-3 days before Apex, i even watched Mango's Falco beat Lucky's fox one game taking only 7 damage because of 3 0-deaths in a row.

 

[SleepyK]

That's not the best reference because Mango is Mango and he plays lucky all the time.

 

[Deleted member]

well, if everyone is just going to post their personal list, here's mine:

Tier 1
Falco
Fox
Jigglypuff

Tier 2
Sheik
Marth

Tier 3
Peach
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers

Tier 4
Doctor Mario
Ganon
Samus

Tier 5
Luigi
Pikachu
DK
Mario
Link

Tier 6
Roy
Zelda
Young Link

Tier 7
Pichu
Mewtwo
Game and Watch
Bowser

Tier 8
Ness
Yoshi
Kirby

 

[Mew2King]

^ that's a good list

 

[Dr Peepee]

M2K, what are your reasons for Falco beating Marth and Sheik at the highest level of play?

 

[Mew2King]

Playing mango made me realize if Falco hits Marth, Marth should be at 50%+ and off stage. And his recovery isn't that good. Marth owns falco on FD but most stages i think falco has the advantage.

falco combos sheik even harder and edge guards her harder, while sheik can't grab-**** falco that badly back.

 

[Deleted member]

I've been telling you that falco beats sheik forever. she's almost intentionally designed to be falco combo fodder even moreso than other characters.

 

[Mew2King]

yeah I really used to think Sheik did well, or went even, but as I truely see the highest levels of play in this game, she just gets stuck in a long combo forever and edge guard *****.

 

[Hax]

man i don't even care about this tier sh** anymore i just know falcon sucks but still **** with him

 

[Dogysamich]

I'll honestly argue jiggs not being top 3 till the end of time, but I can accept that it falls on deaf ears.

Falcon over ICs? While falcon is a huge problem to specific characters, I feel as if ICs are a more universal threat overall.

The big thing is people putting mario so low. All mango/scorpion master stuff aside, I don't see how anybody wants to put Mario that low, especially that far below Doc, in the current meta. He's got a better recovery, capable of generating more offensive pressure, can get more followups, and marginally has a better reach than doc (enough to make a difference, imo). How does that lose way to KO power in a time that's about shield pressure and off stage edgeguarding?

 

[SleepyK]

yo eff some capps road, forreal.

I agree. Mario has seen more play time and higher placings than DK at least.

 

[AXE 09]

I also agree. Mario should definitely be at least above Pikachu IMO.

 

[Deleted member]

i put mario kinda low because he gets screwed by his range so bad. things like sheik bair and his poor recovery really hold him back IMO

 

[Nihonjin]

Axe Tier
Pikachu

1st Tier
Fox
Jigglypuff

2nd Tier
Falco - Not buying the hype Jason. Falco, unlike Jiggs & Fox has bad matchups.

3rd Tier
Sheik
Marth

4th Tier
Peach

Spoiler

Falco on a bad day

5th Tier
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers

6th Tier
Doc
Ganon/Samus

You shouldn't be playing these characters...Tier
Anything I haven't mentioned yet and Pikachu not played by Axe

I'll honestly argue jiggs not being top 3 till the end of time, but I can accept that it falls on deaf ears.

Make your case.

 

[SleepyK]

i put mario kinda low because he gets screwed by his range so bad. things like sheik bair and his poor recovery really hold him back IMO

the same things that.. hold doc back? that dogy went over?

Axe Tier
Pikachu

1st Tier
Fox
Jigglypuff

2nd Tier
Falco - Not buying the hype Jason. Falco, unlike Jiggs & Fox has bad matchups.

3rd Tier
Sheik
Marth

4th Tier
Peach

5th Tier
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers

6th Tier
Doc
Ganon/Samus

You shouldn't be playing these characters...Tier
Anything I haven't mentioned yet and Pikachu not played by Axe

you forgot taj tier

 

[Nihonjin]

^**** you're right..

Oh well..Taj's epicness cannot be expressed in tiers anyway.

 

[AXE 09]

Axe Tier
Pikachu

I like this list =D Lol

<3 Amsah

 

[SleepyK]

You know what? We should just put Axe and Taj in the Arizona Tier.

Also, do we have a Mike G's boner concrete definition of what determines a tier list?

 

[AXE 09]

Also, do we have a Mike G's boner concrete definition of what determines a tier list?

I'm also wondering about this, because I'm not even sure what exactly determines if one character should be above another.

 

[SleepyK]

Clearly, if they're played by Axe or Taj.

 

[Dogysamich]

i put mario kinda low because he gets screwed by his range so bad. things like sheik bair and his poor recovery really hold him back IMO

....how does mario have bad range and doc doesnt?

And how does Mario have a WORSE recovery than Doc when he has capelift, a wall jump, and a wider angled up+B that he can up+b walljump off of. *which, lets him up+b -> walljump on stages such as dreamland? *

That's what i keep saying, if you're going to fault mario for that stuff, which, in the grand scheme of things I could understand, then Doc really has to be put LOWER than that cause all he has is KO power right over mario, and KO power doens't amount to the greatest tool in the world right now.

Make your case.

With "as broke as jiggs is" and "as simple as jiggs is", ever since the whole mango-era started, and even before that, jiggs has never been as dominant as people make her out to be. Why? Because while she might be easy to play functionally (read: pressing buttons), she's not dirt easy to the point of being beyond spacing and logical tactics.

Tournament Results:
If she is, why aren't there more people playing jiggs and winning? I'd leave that as "why aren't more people playing jiggs", but that's really debatable, I guess. If she's that good, shouldn't jiggs be the pocket character? I mean not only does she "dominate the game", but she's "ridiculously easy" on top of that. Whether you agree or disagree on the difficulty, can we agree that, overall, her current tournament representation has been based off of two one person. And if you want to take it as far as regions, which is fair, there isn't a such thing as a "jiggs heavy region" or "one where everybody (noteable) plays jiggs".


Matchups:
Yeah, this is the one that is hard to get across because of the skill pool at the atm. Jiggs has a few disadvantagous/bad matchups. If you won't give me Y.Link, then you can ask any Jiggs player who's play a competent one and they'll tell you Doc is pretty bad. The reason it's so hard to believe (like somebody said earlier) is because of the skill gap between the best Docs and the best Jiggs. It's one thing that seeing this matchup is rare, but when it does happen I can literally be as bad as watching Hbox vs Ocean. Ocean? Who's Ocean? Exactly. My point being, how can you go as far as to put a character into TOP tier when they have bad matchups?

On the other end of the scale, jiggs doesn't dominate some as many of the lower end characters hard enough to be an absolute nightmare. Is she still bad for a large majority of them? Yeah, but her advantages aren't as huge and as lopsided as other characters around her.

Honestly, when I think about it, I think I could let it go at jiggs being the top of high, but not bottom of top. In this game, I realy can't wrap my head around a character with one, arguably two bad matchups being top. (I'd push for one more if I was crazy)

__

I'm not trying to sit here and say "jiggs hasn't gotten better" since the last tierlist, I really don't get how, really, a few people have made it that bad, especially when two of them have been shining on the top. Especially when you put it in perspective of something such as the number of people who have a pocket sheik.

 

[Deleted member]

doc has a lot of tools that make him **** good where mario doesn't. I put those advantages mostly on having 2 substantially better aerials, cape and pills. doc can definitely overcome things like crouching or air camping much better.

 

[Mew2King]

Dogy are you REALLY saying jiggs is 6th and mario is better than doc? you don't know anything. ANYTHING

doc is a LOT better

having good KO moves and a **** edge guarding Bair, (and much better edge guarding Cape) THAT ALONE makes a BIG, BIG difference. Doc is a LOT better than Mario

have you seen the success rate of current jiggs player? When it's not mango in finals, its hbox, sometimes dittos, and Darc always does good. The success rate of her is ridiculous despite not being as popular. Rom2 had 3 jiggs in the top 5 with like 160 people or so there (not sure exact number but around that). She's the best character in today's metagame

 

[Dogysamich]

doc has a lot of tools that make him **** good where mario doesn't. I put those advantages mostly on having 2 substantially better aerials, cape and pills. doc can definitely overcome things like crouching or air camping much better.

Air camping? I can agree doc does better at dealing with that.

Crouching? I don't see that beyond doc's fair, which both his and mario's are stopable by most characters if they're in a spot to crouch it. You goin for something different?

Dogy are you REALLY saying jiggs is 6th and mario is better than doc? you don't know anything. ANYTHING

doc is a LOT better

having good KO moves and a **** edge guarding Bair, (and much better edge guarding Cape) THAT ALONE makes a BIG, BIG difference. Doc is a LOT better than Mario

have you seen the success rate of current jiggs player? When it's not mango in finals, its hbox, sometimes dittos, and Darc always does good. The success rate of her is ridiculous despite not being as popular. Rom2 had 3 jiggs in the top 5 with like 160 people or so there (not sure exact number but around that). She's the best character in today's metagame

Hmm. Kool, so you'll read half of what I say and shove it down my throat, but I have to BELIEVE what you say just because you're m2k.

I SAID I REALLY COULD GET ALONG WITH JIGGS JUST NOT BEING TOP, MEANING SHE CAN STILL BE THIRD. I'm sorry I'm not right behind you with "Jiggs is broke, Marth is terrible" and everything else you say, but you don't get backing just by being up top. Not if you're going to sit there and ask for everybody to blind sheep.

Since you wanna throw tournament placing around so much, lemme ask you this. If jiggs is always finishing on top, or apparently overpopulating top 5 as some tournament, why exactly isn't jiggs ABOVE fox and falco? If placing 1st and being in the top spots is what matters, why can't jiggs be 1 again? Even I can't argue that jiggs has flat out been winning everything for a while.

She's so good that she can shoot up and be above everybody. To the point of being "dominant", but she can't be at the top?

Why is there a double standard? Tell me.

I don't know anything.

 

[SwiftBass]

umbreon has the best list so far.

doc > mario by a solid margin.

am I the only one who thinks that CF should at least be considered among the ranks of marth/shiek? I know its a stretch but i think that somewhere theres an argument for it. I just do not want to make it.....

 

[Marc]

Amsah and me have such similar lists, it's almost as if we're from the same country. =o

Dogy: Fox and Falco perform well consistently even if they don't get first and it's fairly clear they have untapped potential still. They are simply hard to play consistently well for an entire tournament and tend to lose stocks quickly when someone finally gets them. There's basically a small disconnect between theory and practice, but the theory is commonly accepted. I think M2K would very much argue Jiggs as first btw and I personally also believe anything less than top 2 is out of the question.

Doc's up+B is much better than Mario's also. Gotta love how the final part sucks him up to the edge in a Brawl-esque fashion.

 

[Mew2King]

Jiggs is top 3 no question

 

[Dogysamich]

Dogy: Fox and Falco perform well consistently even if they don't get first and it's fairly clear they have untapped potential still. They are simply hard to play consistently well for an entire tournament and tend to lose stocks quickly when someone finally gets them. There's basically a small disconnect between theory and practice, but the theory is commonly accepted. I think M2K would very much argue Jiggs as first btw and I personally also believe anything less than top 2 is out of the question.
.

Oh I know.

But seeing as I'm posting with "The Higher Intellects of the Melee Community", I'd rather get an answer beyond "Do this, believe me because I'm right and you're wrong."

I'd go back to caring about melee discussion if that were the case.

 

[SwiftBass]

Doc's up+B is much better than Mario's also. Gotta love how the final part sucks him up to the edge in a Brawl-esque fashion.

i am under the impression that mario/doc have the same "magnet hands" effect. I would love to see some data on the hitboxes or range of the magnet hands for both characters.