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Making characters more faithful to canon is making some of them less fun to play

Opossum

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I didn't want to derail the thread, but I've seen this too many times now.


Guys. The word is quash in this context, not squash.
 

Luigifan18

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I didn't want to derail the thread, but I've seen this too many times now.


Guys. The word is quash in this context, not squash.
Eh, either works. It's still extremely annoying.
 

Necro'lic

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I didn't want to derail the thread, but I've seen this too many times now.


Guys. The word is quash in this context, not squash.
lol

Back on topic, I still cannot fathom why someone dislikes changes like this. They are truer to canon while still being interesting additions. What more do you want? This is why people see this simply as a resistance to change in general, because most of the changes complained about are either completely neutral, or have given said characters more options to work with.
 

Quillion

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lol

Back on topic, I still cannot fathom why someone dislikes changes like this. They are truer to canon while still being interesting additions. What more do you want? This is why people see this simply as a resistance to change in general, because most of the changes complained about are either completely neutral, or have given said characters more options to work with.
I just liked the way the animations looked in the past. If Ganondorf and Bowser needed options, they could have just given them better frame data, range, or other attributes and keep the animations the same. More canon does not equate to more fun to play (which, yes, encompasses how cool the animations look to you).
 
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I just liked the way the animations looked in the past. If Ganondorf and Bowser needed options, they could have just given them better frame data, range, or other attributes and keep the animations the same. More canon does not equate to more fun to play (which, yes, encompasses how cool the animations look to you).
do you not realize how iconic ganon's new smash attacks are now? half of the smash ultimate subreddit is memes about it lmao
 

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While I liked the more threatening and intimidating Bowser, I acknowledge that it doesn't reflect the Mario canon. Mind you, neither do most of these characters beating the tar out of each other. Smash has always taken liberties with characters to varying degrees; I liked the beastly Bowser, but I guess now that we have Ridley in the game to be the savage I can deal with his loss. I'm just glad we have that sort of kaiju-monster character represented, because before Ridley, it was just Bowser, and losing him was a hit to variety.

I like the direction Ganondorf is moving, including the swords. I wasn't sure at first when I heard about them because of frames, but I think he's better for them now. I also agree with the point about his Nair, which is a great move for him but I can see how it would be a bit out of character.
 

Quillion

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do you not realize how iconic ganon's new smash attacks are now? half of the smash ultimate subreddit is memes about it lmao
They can meme Ganon's sword all they want. It will never compare to the glory of the ELBOW (and the kicks).
 

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That's another problem with Ganon's being a Falcon clone, yeah. It's less problematic now that he's returned to his prime self, with new movement animations that don't look like he's struggling just to move around, but I always thought it was bizarre how old man "grandpa run" Ganondorf could look so slow and unwieldy one second, then launch into acrobatic back flips, 180 degree raised leg kicks, and rapid double kicks the next.
 
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Ryu Myuutsu

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They can meme Ganon's sword all they want. It will never compare to the glory of the ELBOW (and the kicks).
You can say that all the times you want, but whether the elbow or the sword is better, usability not withstanding, is entirely subjective (as the whole premise of this thread).
 
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Xelrog

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That's another problem with Ganon's being a Falcon clone, yeah. It's less problematic now that he's returned to his prime self, with new movement animations that don't look like he's struggling just to move around, but I always thought it was bizarre how old man "grandpa run" Ganondorf could look so slow and unwieldy one second, then launch into acrobatic back flips, 180 degree raised leg kicks, and rapid double kicks the next.
The thing is, Ganon wasn't slow in Ocarina or Wind Waker (can't speak for his other appearances). He was plenty nimble in Wind Waker and could outright fly in Ocarina. Though I don't rightly know about his hamstrings.
 

Arthur97

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The thing with Ganondorf is that, yes, he is clearly strong, but he is warlock. He can fight physically, but he's still a powerful mage. In OoT, he started with magic, in TP, he only fought in close combat as a human after several other tactics failed.
 

Quillion

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You can say that all the times you want, but whether the elbow or the sword is better, usability not withstanding, is entirely subjective (as the whole premise of this thread).
At least I can explain why I find the elbow so fun. Ganondorf doesn't need any fancy explosions or weapons to be powerful, because he just is. Using his elbow shows that he has more power in one limb than anyone else has in their entire bodies. Instead of having to resort to big reach magic or weapons to make his point, he gets in close, then utterly destroys the opponent with a simple elbow strike. It's the epitome of disrespect (or at least close to it, given the Warlock Punch and Volcano Kick).

How can a big, sweeping sword swing be as interesting as that? Can you explain that without resorting to "it's just your opinion"?

The thing with Ganondorf is that, yes, he is clearly strong, but he is warlock. He can fight physically, but he's still a powerful mage. In OoT, he started with magic, in TP, he only fought in close combat as a human after several other tactics failed.
Mario uses a hammer all the time; no one wants that in Smash. Zelda uses a Light Arrow for three games; people like ToW better and no one wants it to be moved to a regular move. DK throws barrels in the Mario DK games and DKC games all the time; no one minds that he doesn't have that in Smash.

Canonical abilities get ignored in Smash all the time, yet Ganondorf seems to get the worst of it for no reason.
 

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How can a big, sweeping sword swing be as interesting as that? Can you explain that without resorting to "it's just your opinion"?
But now he has lots of disrespectful blunt moves and also a sword that's bigger and more evil-looking than anyone else's. I'm happy with this.
 
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Arthur97

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Mario uses a hammer all the time; no one wants that in Smash. Zelda uses a Light Arrow for three games; people like ToW better and no one wants it to be moved to a regular move. DK throws barrels in the Mario DK games and DKC games all the time; no one minds that he doesn't have that in Smash.

Canonical abilities get ignored in Smash all the time, yet Ganondorf seems to get the worst of it for no reason.
Mario uses hammers sparingly these days. The Triforce of Wisdom is an integral part of Zelda lore. Next are you going to tell me DK's roll is the worst thing to happen to him?

Ganondorf kick flipping never happens in the games. And the post was meant to point out that Ganondorf is a warlock, not an MMA fighter.
 

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Yeah current Ganondorf is cool, it's just that a lot of people that like Ganondorf for, y'know, Ganondorf, and want him to actually use stuff from his games like the sword instead of being Falcondorf.

If they added Skull Kid to Smash, no one would want him to be a clone of Ness for whatever weird reason, right? Or Banjo-Kazooie a clone of Duck Hunt. It doesn't make sense in the eyes of those who love the characters (and really it doesn't make sense anyway); they should use their own stuffs instead of being based on another character, especially a character from a different franchise. At least Dark Samus can do stuff Samus can do, but even then people would like for her to use her own unique moves.
 
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Arrei

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The thing is, Ganon wasn't slow in Ocarina or Wind Waker (can't speak for his other appearances). He was plenty nimble in Wind Waker and could outright fly in Ocarina. Though I don't rightly know about his hamstrings.
Yeah, it's not that he's not supposed to be nimble, even old man 'Dorf in Twilight Princess was capable of being fast when he fought you one on one. It's that they choose to make ChunkyDorf look so slow and lumbering in most of his movement aniimations, mostly with that infamous grandpa jog, and then suddenly he's whipping out moves that would put professional gymnasts to shame. It was a very jarring pairing.
 

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At least I can explain why I find the elbow so fun. Ganondorf doesn't need any fancy explosions or weapons to be powerful, because he just is. Using his elbow shows that he has more power in one limb than anyone else has in their entire bodies. Instead of having to resort to big reach magic or weapons to make his point, he gets in close, then utterly destroys the opponent with a simple elbow strike. It's the epitome of disrespect (or at least close to it, given the Warlock Punch and Volcano Kick).
That's all fine and dandy, but is still subjective. If you like the elbow then that's ok.
But a lot of characters use their limbs for a Smash attack, so it isn't that special. Plus Ganon's elbow was powered by dark magic so it is fancier than you think.

How can a big, sweeping sword swing be as interesting as that? Can you explain that without resorting to "it's just your opinion"?
Because it's a big, sweeping sword. And that's good enough for me. I like strong character with big ass weapons (in a non sexual way).

It's that simple for me. I don't care about romanticizing the sword the same way you romanticize the elbow strike.

But let me add as well that the sword has more practical uses than the elbow. The disjoint and range makes it so that you can realistically hit an opponent more often. It covers above, in front and can hit below the ledge so it can function as an edge guarding tool. In terms of functionality, sword>elbow.
It doesn't magically fix all of Dorf's problems but it sure gives him more offensive presence.
 
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Quillion

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But let me add as well that the sword has more practical uses than the elbow. The disjoint and range makes it so that you can realistically hit an opponent more often. It covers above, in front and can hit below the ledge so it can function as an edge guarding tool. In terms of functionality, sword>elbow.
It doesn't magically fix all of Dorf's problems but it sure gives him more offensive presence.
If you're going to go on about functionality, then I can just say that they could have just improved the frame data and/or armored it. They didn't have to alter the move in such an alienating way.

Mario uses hammers sparingly these days. The Triforce of Wisdom is an integral part of Zelda lore. Next are you going to tell me DK's roll is the worst thing to happen to him?

Ganondorf kick flipping never happens in the games. And the post was meant to point out that Ganondorf is a warlock, not an MMA fighter.
Three mainline games and one spinoff established Zelda as an archer. Does anyone want Zelda to have her Light Arrow reworked as a regular move?

DK's roll is fine; it's similar in functionality to his old dash attack and the original dash attack animation was insignificant enough to be replaced. Bowser's primalness and Ganondorf's old Smashes were too significant to change like that.
 

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If you're going to go on about functionality, then I can just say that they could have just improved the frame data and/or armored it. They didn't have to alter the move in such an alienating way.



Three mainline games and one spinoff established Zelda as an archer. Does anyone want Zelda to have her Light Arrow reworked as a regular move?

DK's roll is fine; it's similar in functionality to his old dash attack and the original dash attack animation was insignificant enough to be replaced. Bowser's primalness and Ganondorf's old Smashes were too significant to change like that.
But they were (are) blatantly misrepresenting the characters.
 

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At least I can explain why I find the elbow so fun. Ganondorf doesn't need any fancy explosions or weapons to be powerful, because he just is. Using his elbow shows that he has more power in one limb than anyone else has in their entire bodies. Instead of having to resort to big reach magic or weapons to make his point, he gets in close, then utterly destroys the opponent with a simple elbow strike. It's the epitome of disrespect (or at least close to it, given the Warlock Punch and Volcano Kick).

How can a big, sweeping sword swing be as interesting as that? Can you explain that without resorting to "it's just your opinion"?



Mario uses a hammer all the time; no one wants that in Smash. Zelda uses a Light Arrow for three games; people like ToW better and no one wants it to be moved to a regular move. DK throws barrels in the Mario DK games and DKC games all the time; no one minds that he doesn't have that in Smash.

Canonical abilities get ignored in Smash all the time, yet Ganondorf seems to get the worst of it for no reason.
Your use of "no one" is pretty egregious. I've wanted Mario to use his hammer for a while now (mainly as his up smash, keeping it the same general move but altering it so he swings a hammer instead of his head).
 

channel_KYX

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If you're going to go on about functionality, then I can just say that they could have just improved the frame data and/or armored it. They didn't have to alter the move in such an alienating way.
How are swords alienating if they represent exactly what that character did?
And no, giving the elbow altered frames and/or super armor would not be the same as the disjointed hitbox the sword now offers.
 

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But they were (are) blatantly misrepresenting the characters.
Why? Just because they don't have certain moves that they use in canon? Smash does this all the time.

I shall repeat myself:

Three mainline games and one spinoff established Zelda as an archer. Does anyone want Zelda to have her Light Arrow reworked as a regular move?

Your use of "no one" is pretty egregious. I've wanted Mario to use his hammer for a while now (mainly as his up smash, keeping it the same general move but altering it so he swings a hammer instead of his head).
Alright, there are some people who want Mario to wield a hammer, you have proved me wrong. I'm just saying that there is no reason for canon Ganondorf fans to be so vocal over "iconic moves" when fans of a more iconic character aren't nearly as vocal. There's no united, vocal contingent who wants Mario to have his Goomba Stomp, not even when Mario's canonically non-stomping incarnation has it instead.

How are swords alienating if they represent exactly what that character did?
And no, giving the elbow altered frames and/or super armor would not be the same as the disjointed hitbox the sword now offers.
They're alienating because the fans who liked the way those moves looked before are now left in the cold with much less than what they liked.

And yes, improving the old Smashes would not give Ganon his disjoint, I get what you mean. I just think that better frames and armor would be much more reasonable than radically altering the move, since people have already come to love the old Smashes.
 

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They're alienating because the fans who liked the way those moves looked before are now left in the cold with much less than what they liked.
Such an exaggeration. That change potentially did more good than harm. Some like you may feel alienated, because reasons, but most might have been pleased by it.
 

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The difference between Mario and Ganondorf is that Mario's moves are actually based on stuff in his games. At least Ganondorf has the sword now, but even so he was only added in Melee because Sakurai thought he'd work as a Falcon clone just with dark magic, despite him not using anything he actually has in OoT nor anything his previous incarnations have had other than the dark magic, and even so the magic just boosts his attacks since they were originally 100% Falcon-based.

DK's moves, or at least some of them (not very familiar with the franchise outside of DK64 and the arcade of course), also come from his games, the roll being from DK64 (edit: nvm it's DKC). I think the punch was from something as well but I'm not sure what.
 
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I think the punch was from something as well but I'm not sure what.
In Mario Super Sluggers DK hits the ball with his fist. Although that game came out after Smash did I guess it's in the same boat as Dedede's jet hammer. It became canon after Smash.

Uncless DK uses the big punch in an earlier game.
 

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And, no, I don't want every move to be direct rips. I actually don't like characters that do stuff like that (looking at you Ryu, Ken, and Bayonetta), but they should at least be in character and have something from their games. At the very least, they should be original in the stuff they make up.
 

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Such an exaggeration. That change potentially did more good than harm. Some like you may feel alienated, because reasons, but most might have been pleased by it.
Also, let's remember that the elbow f-smash covers less distance than the new sword f-smash. However, some could argue that Ganondorf's old u-smash was better, since even though it shared the old f-smash's start-up lag, its ending lag is rather short for such a powerful smash attack.
 

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Also, let's remember that the elbow f-smash covers less distance than the new sword f-smash. However, some could argue that Ganondorf's old u-smash was better, since even though it shared the old f-smash's start-up lag, its ending lag is rather short for such a powerful smash attack.
Indeed, I can see the argument made in favor of the old Usmash because of that amazing endling lag.
Current USmash is still useful on its own because of that range that Ganon gains around him though.

DK's moves, or at least some of them (not very familiar with the franchise outside of DK64 and the arcade of course), also come from his games, the roll being from DK64. I think the punch was from something as well but I'm not sure what.
Minor thing, the roll originated from DK Country and the punch is from the ending of DKC2.
 
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Lenidem

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Mario feels and moves like Mario. He has his agility, his jump, his cape, his fireballs...

Ganondorf is Ganondorf in appearance only. Before I bought Melee, I read in a magazine that he was 'only a clone of Captain Falcon', and I didn't believe it because it seemed so dumb. When I unlocked him, I thought 'This isn't Ganondorf' and was very disappointed. This character has Ganondorf's look and voice, no more. He's like a very good cosplay: you admire the work, you see the resemblance, you know who it is supposed to be... but at no point you think 'Oh my God, this is really him'.
 

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The Waft.
Ya see, Wario has never really been shown to be notoriously gassy in his source material. It is fun to use, HOWEVER, Smash is the only exposure many have to him outside of the Party and Sports games where as of recent he has nothing to differentiate himself besides appearance. I'd say it could be replaced with a move similar to his Flame Wario form in WarioLand, where instead of a fart cloud, he could combust into flame and expel a fire explosion around himself.
 

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The Waft.
Ya see, Wario has never really been shown to be notoriously gassy in his source material. It is fun to use, HOWEVER, Smash is the only exposure many have to him outside of the Party and Sports games where as of recent he has nothing to differentiate himself besides appearance. I'd say it could be replaced with a move similar to his Flame Wario form in WarioLand, where instead of a fart cloud, he could combust into flame and expel a fire explosion around himself.
At least they made some effort with the Shoulder Bash.
 

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The difference between Mario and Ganondorf is that Mario's moves are actually based on stuff in his games. At least Ganondorf has the sword now, but even so he was only added in Melee because Sakurai thought he'd work as a Falcon clone just with dark magic, despite him not using anything he actually has in OoT nor anything his previous incarnations have had other than the dark magic, and even so the magic just boosts his attacks since they were originally 100% Falcon-based.

DK's moves, or at least some of them (not very familiar with the franchise outside of DK64 and the arcade of course), also come from his games, the roll being from DK64 (edit: nvm it's DKC). I think the punch was from something as well but I'm not sure what.
Mario feels and moves like Mario. He has his agility, his jump, his cape, his fireballs...

Ganondorf is Ganondorf in appearance only. Before I bought Melee, I read in a magazine that he was 'only a clone of Captain Falcon', and I didn't believe it because it seemed so dumb. When I unlocked him, I thought 'This isn't Ganondorf' and was very disappointed. This character has Ganondorf's look and voice, no more. He's like a very good cosplay: you admire the work, you see the resemblance, you know who it is supposed to be... but at no point you think 'Oh my God, this is really him'.
Ganondorf punched the ground in OoT, used punches in a cutscene and kicks in a battle in WW, and used kicks and elbow strikes in TP. For the formermost, he even charges his fist with magic.

How is that less canonical than extrapolating the Super Jump Punch from something that doesn't even damage enemies canonically?
 

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The Waft.
Ya see, Wario has never really been shown to be notoriously gassy in his source material. It is fun to use, HOWEVER, Smash is the only exposure many have to him outside of the Party and Sports games where as of recent he has nothing to differentiate himself besides appearance. I'd say it could be replaced with a move similar to his Flame Wario form in WarioLand, where instead of a fart cloud, he could combust into flame and expel a fire explosion around himself.
I think that was something that got lost in translation, IIRC. Wario in Japan gets heavily associated with toilet humor, so that's likely where the Waft comes from.
 

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Ganondorf punched the ground in OoT, used punches in a cutscene and kicks in a battle in WW, and used kicks and elbow strikes in TP. For the formermost, he even charges his fist with magic.

How is that less canonical than extrapolating the Super Jump Punch from something that doesn't even damage enemies canonically?
Yes, the super jump is a modified version of Mario's regular jump. Still, it comes from somewhere and it is very recognizable. And there is also Mario's agility, his cape, his fireballs, even his punch-punch-kick combo from Mario 64, and now the water pump from Mario Sunshine.

I have no problem with Ganondorf punching and kicking - EVERYBODY does that in Smash, after all, you need normal attacks. The problem here is Ganondorf doing ONLY THAT. It makes no sense. In every game he stars in, he does much, much more than that.
 

osby

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Yes, the super jump is a modified version of Mario's regular jump. Still, it comes from somewhere and it is very recognizable. And there is also Mario's agility, his cape, his fireballs, even his punch-punch-kick combo from Mario 64, and now the water pump from Mario Sunshine.

I have no problem with Ganondorf punching and kicking - EVERYBODY does that in Smash, after all, you need normal attacks. The problem here is Ganondorf doing ONLY THAT. It makes no sense. In every game he stars in, he does much, much more than that.
To be fair, he kinda does more than that with his new Smash attacks, Flame Choke and Dark Dive. And his Final Smash, if you count that too.
 

Lenidem

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To be fair, he kinda does more than that with his new Smash attacks, Flame Choke and Dark Dive. And his Final Smash, if you count that too.
Indeed, I was mostly talking about the Melee version.
 
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