Making characters more faithful to canon is making some of them less fun to play

[MG_3989]

Their wrestling aesthetics are just too similar, that's the problem. It was bad enough that Bowser was made a deceptively mobile heavy brawler like Donkey Kong already is. But they just had to add another heavy wrestler to the roster.

And the bigger problem was that Bowser's animations before Smash 4 were better. They could have just given him speed and armor with the old animations, and that would have been the best option.



You can't boil characters down to competitive viability and call it a day. Yes, Ganon and Bowser were terrible back then, and Link was less viable then; so what? The moves were just more fun to use back then. Why couldn't they just keep Ganon's old Smashes and armor them and/or give them better frame data? Why couldn't they just give Bowser more speed while keeping his awesome beastly animations? And Young Link and Toon Link are both too light to be my Link.

I’m not boiling it down to their competitive viability. I also think it’s much better if they fit their canon

 

[FartyParty]

I agree with the point, but not these particular examples. On the topic of Ganondorf, I want him to be MORE canon. Replace his useless Warlock Punch with magic tennis projectile and give him some kind of limited flight in his jumps/recovery, to reflect his Ocarina qualities. A projectile and a better recovery would make him a better representation of Dorf and also do wonders for his playability.

Things that cause me to think twice are the characters taking damage in water (which has no competitive influence, but still), and some of the more gimmicky characters... like, is Robin so incredibly powerful that his spells NEED to run out? Or is that just there to reflect the original game? Limited ammo systems on the whole kind of suck for a game like Smash, and I would feel the same way about Inkling if she weren't such a powerful character even with the need to reload.

Rather than changing Ganondorf, I'd like a Phantom Ganondorf echo fighter with the following differences:
1) Floaty, falls slower, hovers over the ground during movement
2) Warlock Punch replaced by the magic projectile, side special replaced by a reflector move
3) Up special is less powerful but has better range

 

[Quillion]

Besides, if it's just that important to keep the clone moveset (for whatever reason) just give it to someone where it makes more sense

No way. The punching has become such an iconic facet of Ganondorf himself. Sticking the moveset onto some nobody is incredibly petty and pointless.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

That's all well and good, but he can keep the style but have an accurate moveset.

Ganondorf's physical strength was shown in the Wind Waker, as he knocked out Toon Link with just his bare hands. That could probably explain why he still copies most of Captain Falcon's attacks. Of course, the Wind Waker was released after Melee, so that can lead to more questions.

 

[Arthur97]

No way. The punching has become such an iconic facet of Ganondorf himself. Sticking the moveset onto some nobody is incredibly petty and pointless.

Are you being sarcastic? Please tell me you're being sarcastic. Besides, Neither of the two punch much outside of neutral special.

Ganondorf's physical strength was shown in the Wind Waker, as he knocked out Toon Link with just his bare hands. That could probably explain why he still copies most of Captain Falcon's attacks. Of course, the Wind Waker was released after Melee, so that can lead to more questions.

He, a grown man, knocked out a twelve year old. Oh yeah, great showing. Also, Wind Waker itself had Link fight him duel wielding swords. Poor example.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Considering Bowser and Ganon were complete jokes prior to Smash 4, I can’t agree that “canon changes” made them worse.

I also despised the Brawl and Melee incarnation of Bowser, because he has never just scraped across the ground. It wasn’t Bowser, it was a scaly, edgy looking monster that looked like Bowser. Now, we have a Bowser that has better movement options, is far better than his previous versions, and it, frankly more fun to play, which is what matters most in a video game.

Ganondorf has been effectively a meme character because of how bad he was. For years, fans have wanted him to use a sword. We got it, and Ganon is basically a force to reckoned with because of his other changes.

Could he be further changed? Yes. Functionally though, his moveset I feel has been fairly put together. He’s not high tier or anything, but he’s way more accurate, but is also way better as a character.

 

[Baddest bih]

Only thing I miss from bowser is his transformation giga bowser. His new final smash is so whack

 

[channel_KYX]

Also, Wind Waker itself had Link fight him duel wielding swords. Poor example.

At this point I would like to mention that I voted for Toon Ganondorf in Sakurai's poll. Not as a clone, not as a semi-clone, but as an individual character. Dual swords and jumping skills. Floaty movement. Parrying from the back. So many options.
Making him into a Ganondorf (semi-)clone would be insulting.

 

[Xelrog]

I refuse to believe that I'm the only Ganondorf main who enjoys how he plays and is not just playing "because he's Ganondorf."

 

[Quillion]

He, a grown man, knocked out a twelve year old. Oh yeah, great showing. Also, Wind Waker itself had Link fight him duel wielding swords. Poor example.

Wind Waker also made the Light Arrow Zelda's signature, which lasted into Twilight Princess and Spirit Tracks. Yet no one pays any mind to Zelda losing it entirely in Smash, despite her sealing power only being in two games (OoT, BotW).

 

[Necro'lic]

Wind Waker also made the Light Arrow Zelda's signature, which lasted into Twilight Princess and Spirit Tracks. Yet no one pays any mind to Zelda losing it entirely in Smash, despite her sealing power only being in two games (OoT, BotW).

I think it's because BOTH Light Arrow and Sealing are two of Zelda's iconic powers, while NONE of Ganondorf's plethora of powers are on display.

 

[Xelrog]

I think it's because BOTH Light Arrow and Sealing are two of Zelda's iconic powers, while NONE of Ganondorf's plethora of powers are on display.

What does he do, exactly? I'm gonna be honest, I haven't played Twilight Princess. In Ocarina he floated around and threw magic tennis. In Wind Waker he had swords and displayed no magic. So... "plethora?"

 

[Necro'lic]

What does he do, exactly? I'm gonna be honest, I haven't played Twilight Princess. In Ocarina he floated around and threw magic tennis. In Wind Waker he had swords and displayed no magic. So... "plethora?"

In terms of 2D Zeldas, he has his "boomerang" style trident, he also has the ring of flames move that he does a lot. In terms of 3D, he has the Dead Man's Volley which you mentioned, and he can summon constructs and control other beings.

 

[Xelrog]

Isn't the trident Ganon proper, not Ganondorf?

I like Smash Bros. Dorf better than Zelda Ganondorf. He's a more interesting and unique character using magic to power up physical attacks, rather than generic dark wizard #8,074. Even the way he carries himself in Smash as the master of disrespect has more personality than he ever had in Ocarina (though Wind Waker Dorf had a great character going on).

Ganondorf is one of those characters who has come to be known as part of the Smash series about as much or more () than his original incarnation.

 

[Arthur97]

Wind Waker also made the Light Arrow Zelda's signature, which lasted into Twilight Princess and Spirit Tracks. Yet no one pays any mind to Zelda losing it entirely in Smash, despite her sealing power only being in two games (OoT, BotW).

There's more than FS to a fighter.

Isn't the trident Ganon proper, not Ganondorf?

I like Smash Bros. Dorf better than Zelda Ganondorf. He's a more interesting and unique character using magic to power up physical attacks, rather than generic dark wizard #8,074. Even the way he carries himself in Smash as the master of disrespect has more personality than he ever had in Ocarina (though Wind Waker Dorf had a great character going on).

Ganondorf is one of those characters who has come to be known as part of the Smash series about as much or more () than his original incarnation.

Okay, sounds more like you like the moveset than you do Ganondorf. Also, Ganon and Ganondorf are two forms of the same entity with the latter being the humanoind form. It can be adapted.

Also, saying Ganondorf is a Smash entity anything like Captain Falcon or even more just...are you aware that he's the main antagonist of one of the most popular video game franchises of all time? Not to mention Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess (Ganondorf's most famous appearances) are two of the best known of the already famous series.

 

[tecmo]

Ah, a complaint thread where the owner asserts their opinions as objective facts. Well, I'll throw in my two cents:

I think making character more "canon" style is fine as long as it's not a direct nerf, and if it is, there's a replacement. Bowser's intimidating design fits the idea behind his character. Link's changes aren't super nerfs, and if you want his old playstyle, choose Young Link. The only thing I agree with you on is Ganon. The sword is a nerf in almost every way and there's nothing that makes up for it.

I'm not seeing any problems here, just you asserting your own tastes as the only correct ones. I like Bowser as he is now, in his "thicc but fit" form instead of his previous incarnation with its lumbering oafish animations. I like how much power Ganondorf exudes with the sheer monstrous size and strength of his new smashes. (I miss being able to spam Usmash though.) I like when characters are based on their incarnations in the rest of Nintendo's media, because this game is supposed to celebrate Nintendo's media as a whole.

I'm still asking for Ike to get his goddamn sword beams ten years after Brawl came out. Where are my goddamn sword lasers, Sakurai?!

Guys he offered an opinion that doesn’t qualify as asserting it as fact. You guys are just trying to squash an opinion you disagree with by asserting this.

 

[Xelrog]

Also, saying Ganondorf is a Smash entity anything like Captain Falcon or even more just...are you aware that he's the main antagonist of one of the most popular video game franchises of all time?

What I'm saying is that his Smash incarnation has come to be very well known in its own regard, independent of his role in the Zelda series, and there are many people who would not want to see it go.

This is why I'm more for making compromises between the two Dorf identities than completely throwing either away.

 

[Arthur97]

What I'm saying is that his Smash incarnation has come to be very well known in its own regard, independent of his role in the Zelda series, and there are many people who would not want to see it go.

This is why I'm more for making compromises between the two Dorf identities than completely throwing either away.

Smash Dorf is more of a meme. He can go if it means we get a better Ganondorf.

 

[Necro'lic]

What I'm saying is that his Smash incarnation has come to be very well known in its own regard, independent of his role in the Zelda series, and there are many people who would not want to see it go.

This is why I'm more for making compromises between the two Dorf identities than completely throwing either away.

Honestly, I'd be down with just ditching Falcondorf and migrating key things in dorf's current moveset to Captain Falcon, like armor on Falcon Punch and maybe FTilt and DTilt (though those are a bit iffy)

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Considering Bowser and Ganon were complete jokes prior to Smash 4, I can’t agree that “canon changes” made them worse.

I also despised the Brawl and Melee incarnation of Bowser, because he has never just scraped across the ground. It wasn’t Bowser, it was a scaly, edgy looking monster that looked like Bowser. Now, we have a Bowser that has better movement options, is far better than his previous versions, and it, frankly more fun to play, which is what matters most in a video game.

Ganondorf has been effectively a meme character because of how bad he was. For years, fans have wanted him to use a sword. We got it, and Ganon is basically a force to reckoned with because of his other changes.

Could he be further changed? Yes. Functionally though, his moveset I feel has been fairly put together. He’s not high tier or anything, but he’s way more accurate, but is also way better as a character.

Ironically, Melee Ganondorf is average tiered. It's his Brawl variant that had it very bad; worst fighter as a whole (even worse than Melee Bowser), as he had no positive or even match-ups whatsoever.

As for Smash 3DS / Wii U, while Ganondorf still suffered from a poor tier position, he was far less atrocious than in Brawl.

 

[soviet prince]

just put pig gannon in and prob solved

 

[ZaneHitsurugi]

Some characters would be worse by sticking to canon. is the first one that springs to mind, remember brawl? There's also characters who would be enhanced by sticking to canon. For example.
All of these characters just swing nothing but swords. Ike could use axes in his game and the rest could use lances. There's plenty of places to shove an alternate weapon in there to make more differences with them all and Marth.
Jigglypuff has some crazy moves she can learn in the real games. Replacing rollout with Ice Beam or something to give her a projectile would make her more fun to play, plus it would better represent the normal type and the crazy movepools it has.
Her upsmash should be her holding up the triforce like she does in Zelda 1. That way it's not only not useless, it's also a reference to NES times. ******* love a reference to NES times.
I'm sure more people who could be enhanced with a bit of extra canon but I don't know who they are since I haven't played that many games.

Can you really put ike in the same category as the rest of them?

 

[Quillion]

Smash Dorf is more of a meme. He can go if it means we get a better Ganondorf.

But canonical Ganondorf won't be better. They can't just throw away something so beloved.

How would you feel if they threw away Fox's moveset or even just special set for the weapons from Star Fox Assault?

What I'm saying is that his Smash incarnation has come to be very well known in its own regard, independent of his role in the Zelda series, and there are many people who would not want to see it go.

This is why I'm more for making compromises between the two Dorf identities than completely throwing either away.

Honestly, I wish Hyrule Warriors had a punching weapon inspired by Super Smash Bros. That would be the ultimate compromise and no one could say that Ganondorf's moveset has nothing to do with Zelda anymore.

Besides, he punches the ground in OoT, kicks in WW, and kicks and uses elbow strikes in TP. Why do people tolerate Mario having a Shoryuken when his jump can only break bricks?

 

[ZaneHitsurugi]

But canonical Ganondorf won't be better. They can't just throw away something so beloved.

How would you feel if they threw away Fox's moveset or even just special set for the weapons from Star Fox Assault?



Honestly, I wish Hyrule Warriors had a punching weapon inspired by Super Smash Bros. That would be the ultimate compromise and no one could say that Ganondorf's moveset has nothing to do with Zelda anymore.

Besides, he punches the ground in OoT, kicks in WW, and kicks and uses elbow strikes in TP. Why do people tolerate Mario having a Shoryuken when his jump can only break bricks?

Falco could stand to lose his current moveset tbh.

 

[Quillion]

Falco could stand to lose his current moveset tbh.

No he doesn't. It's far more iconic than any method of ground combat the Star Fox series has messily attempted to integrate into canon.

It's the same deal with Ganondorf (even Ganon in general); he's never used the same type of sword or magic attack more than once. Yes, he uses a trident as Ganon (and as Ganondorf in a spinoff), but that has long been shunted to a side thing since OoT.

 

[ZaneHitsurugi]

No he doesn't. It's far more iconic than any method of ground combat the Star Fox series has messily attempted to integrate into canon.

It's the same deal with Ganondorf (even Ganon in general); he's never used the same type of sword or magic attack more than once. Yes, he uses a trident as Ganon (and as Ganondorf in a spinoff), but that has long been shunted to a side thing since OoT.

Falco's moveset, being derivative of fox's isn't exactly what i'd call iconic. Its cool, but I really think with both Fox and Wolf in Falco could stand to lose most of his specials in favor of some of the items from Assault.
Ganondorf being given sword normals is what people have been begging for for over 10 years, where have you been?

 

[Arthur97]

But canonical Ganondorf won't be better. They can't just throw away something so beloved.

How would you feel if they threw away Fox's moveset or even just special set for the weapons from Star Fox Assault?



Honestly, I wish Hyrule Warriors had a punching weapon inspired by Super Smash Bros. That would be the ultimate compromise and no one could say that Ganondorf's moveset has nothing to do with Zelda anymore.

Besides, he punches the ground in OoT, kicks in WW, and kicks and uses elbow strikes in TP. Why do people tolerate Mario having a Shoryuken when his jump can only break bricks?

You seem pretty confident it won't. Just cause you loved the moveset doesn't make it good.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Can you really put ike in the same category as the rest of them?

The point was that he wields a sword and nothing else, not that he's a clone of anyone.

 

[Arrei]

Guys he offered an opinion that doesn’t qualify as asserting it as fact. You guys are just trying to squash an opinion you disagree with by asserting this.

He's not just "offering an opinion". His response to everyone who disagrees is to reassert his stance and simply state that these characters have been made worse and less fun. He's stating changes that other people are talking about "wouldn't be better". He's not here to foster discussion and hear from other people about their thoughts on canonical representations, he's just here to state that his thoughts are correct.

 

[Xelrog]

Let's talk about the thoughts and not the people behind them.

 

[tecmo]

He's not just "offering an opinion". His response to everyone who disagrees is to reassert his stance and simply state that these characters have been made worse and less fun. He's stating changes that other people are talking about "wouldn't be better". He's not here to foster discussion and hear from other people about their thoughts on canonical representations, he's just here to state that his thoughts are correct.

Alright then quote me the exact post where he even remotely implied this and I’ll explain why your wrong. Keep in mind, not every opinion post needs a disclaimer letting you know that it’s an opinion especially when that’s pretty obvious given the subject matter.

 

[Arrei]

Go back through the thread yourself, there are barely any posts without flatly saying the ones he preferred were better or the changes ruined the characters. That the changes everyone else in this thread are suggesting would be detrimental to the characters. That things were ruined, would be ruined, or would not improve anything. You accuse us of trying to shut down an opinion we disagree with, but that's literally all he's been doing himself. If we're trying to squash anything, it's not an opinion, but this behavior that many complainers exhibit where they present their own opinion, then insist on telling everyone else their opinions are wrong.

It's plainly clear to us that these thoughts are his opinions. We don't need to be told something is an opinion to be able to identify one as such. But if every comment that does not align with his exact preferences prompts a response where he simply shuts them down, then he's clearly not interested in actually hearing about what people think on the matter. At best he wanted to find people who felt similarly as he did, but when you don't find those people, and someone presents their own subjective opinion that disagrees with yours, you don't need to follow that up with "No, that's wrong."

 

[Crystanium]

I think Bowser's running animation is based off his running animation first seen in Super Mario Galaxy. When I tried Bowser in SSB4, I thought this new animation was neat and made Bowser scary. Heavy, hard-hitting, and fast! Today I tried a demo of the new Yoshi game. Given how Poochy or mini versions of him are in the game, I thought having side special for Yoshi involving Poochy would be a neat idea.

Anyway, for a character like BotW Link, he feels very different from his canonical version. If I play BotW, I'm not throwing bombs around and hitting them or trying to perform neat tricks.

 

[Coolboy]

i do not try to be harsh..but this is a good example of someone who does not like change, if you dislike the changes this much that it ruins your fun to play smash ultimate..you can just go back to melee? i mean things won't change there for you so instead of trying to proof everyone wrong so much,
go play some melee, cause to you the characters were so much more fun in melee.

it's obvious to me you would enjoy Melee much more then you would enjoy Ultimate...no hard feelings there though, but don't force us to agree with you cause that's basically what you are doing.

 

[grizby2]

theres a balance to be made when making a character "more canon" and "cool-looking".

I agree ganondorf could have probably ditched the sword and like... control dark shadow energy made of hatred to use as a weapon. his frame data could be the same, but he'd look "more canon". when melee came out and I saw ganondorf for the first time, I really expected him to have ONE projectile, or use his sword for at least one attack.

I was never a super big Zelda fan as a kid, BUT, even I KNEW that "fisticuffs ganondorf" wasn't exactly ringing true to me. but that's what we ended up with I guess :T

 

[Arthur97]

I think one of the worst moves for Ganondorf as it stands is his Nair. It may be useful, but Ganondorf doing a double kick like that just seems a bit odd to me. Uair as well.

 

[Deleted member]

I just don't like how they keep changing certain characters just to make them more "canon". Yes, they're more canon, I guess it makes sense to change them, but that doesn't mean they have to.

The biggest three examples of this in my mind are Bowser, Link and Ganondorf. All of them have been made more canonical, but they're just much less enjoyable than their previous versions because of their "canonizing" changes.

• Bowser was awesome in both Melee and Brawl, he was such a menacing Kaiju with such bestial fury and brute force. Just his walking animation exuded power, and his headbutt F-Smash was so satisfying, too. But come Smash 4, they turn him into a generic wrestler. Yes, the changes are mainly limited to his animations (and making him run faster), but those animations are simply less fun to look at. The inclusion of Incineroar makes new Bowser even more redundant; we don't need two heavies with fire and wrestling aesthetics.
• Link really should have stuck with his classic toolset. Just because BotW changed so much about him didn't mean the regular bombs, hookshot, and left-handedness had to be thrown away. BotW Link should have been a separate character with TP/OoT Link being an echo or vice versa. And no, Young Link and Toon Link are not good enough.
• Ganondorf, oh man, WHY did they have to stick that dumb sword onto him? Ganondorf had built up such a reputation as someone who is disrespecting the opponent by just using a quarter of his effort and never breaking out his weapons or the full extent of his power. But of course, Smash Ultimate has to betray that image by giving him big sweeping sword attacks that are nowhere near as brutal-looking as his old Smashes. And don't say that it was competitively better; they could have just super-armored his smashes and/or improved their frame data.

I'm not saying that all "canonical" changes are bad: Pit's Upperdash Arm is much more interesting than having two reflectors, and I still think Varia Samus would be a better character with projectile normals. But we really need to stop acting like making characters more canonical is going to magically make them more enjoyable. DK would lose a great setup tool if he loses his Headbutt for his Barrel Throw or Coconut Gun. And how would Zelda's enjoyability benefit from moving her Light Arrow to her regular moveset when her goddess spells are already very fitting?

Bowser is better now
BotW is the newest Zelda game
Ganondorf shouldn't have been a Falcon clone

Deal with it

 

[Quillion]

i do not try to be harsh..but this is a good example of someone who does not like change, if you dislike the changes this much that it ruins your fun to play smash ultimate..you can just go back to melee? i mean things won't change there for you so instead of trying to proof everyone wrong so much,
go play some melee, cause to you the characters were so much more fun in melee.

it's obvious to me you would enjoy Melee much more then you would enjoy Ultimate...no hard feelings there though, but don't force us to agree with you cause that's basically what you are doing.

Because as much playstyle freedom as Melee provides, that game feels stiff and unpolished. I want to keep playing as the characters they way I want them to be portrayed with smoother mechanics. I can't win either way.

I think one of the worst moves for Ganondorf as it stands is his Nair. It may be useful, but Ganondorf doing a double kick like that just seems a bit odd to me. Uair as well.

So what do you think of Ganondorf kicking in WW and TP then?

 

[Necro'lic]

I think one of the worst moves for Ganondorf as it stands is his Nair. It may be useful, but Ganondorf doing a double kick like that just seems a bit odd to me. Uair as well.

I don't think Ganondorf having a bit of fisticuffs in his moveset is a problem. It's when that's pretty much his ENTIRE moveset is when it feels wrong, but pinpointing one particular move is unfair when the sum of his parts is what people are complaining about. If for example Ganondorf's new sword moves were some of his aerials yet he retained his smash attacks, people would still probably be okay because now his moveset isn't just fists and kicks. There is some variety.

 

[Arthur97]

I don't think Ganondorf having a bit of fisticuffs in his moveset is a problem. It's when that's pretty much his ENTIRE moveset is when it feels wrong, but pinpointing one particular move is unfair when the sum of his parts is what people are complaining about. If for example Ganondorf's new sword moves were some of his aerials yet he retained his smash attacks, people would still probably be okay because now his moveset isn't just fists and kicks. There is some variety.

The problem isn't the kicking itself, it's that it looks far too acrobatic for him.