Making an Advanced How-to-Sonic tutorial vid

[Tenki]

Well, my question really pertains to this:

- most special attacks DO give you a boost, especially if the move does something related to momentum changes.

Side-B's charge affects momentum. Down-B's charge doesn't.

Also, not many special attacks have significant phase changes.

- Does the charge give a boost, or is it the release after the charge?

- If it's the release after the charge, then double jumping to escape the charge (see Sonic Orochi's video ) should be able to cancel the momentum.

So would it be better to just do a single charge down-B by itself instead of a f-air>spin special?

 

[darkNES386]

I don't have any nice numbers, but it appears that Sonic's best horizontal save is to do a fair followed by a spin dash and release the spin dash DO NOT jump cancel it. It stops all Sonic's horizontal momentum, jump canceling it still causes sonic to move right.

So release after Charge to answer your question Tenki

edit: Honestly though... a fair > dair with proper DI seems to have almost the same benefit.

 

[Tenki]

how about ASC > insta spinshot?

:3

 

[infomon]

Hmmm, you caught me.

Down-B doesn't seem to give any extra boost at all. During the start-up lag / charge phase, you'll keep flying away along your normal knockback trajectory. At release, you're moving forward at its normal speed and angle, as if you were never in knockback; you have full control.

Side-B's charge does give a boost, but it seems to be consistently a small one. From a DK Fsmash at 120, the knockback+boost pushes me backwards about the same length as the SD's "hop"; so it takes away the same bit of space that you regain afterwards, while the hitbox is out.

As with down-B, when you release the side-B it's as if you were never in knockback; it's the ordinary hop forwards. Naturally, the same goes for if you spinshot out of it; it's a normal spinshot. Just releasing the side-B or down-B has already killed the knockback.

Anyway, so it turns out that the absolute best course of action is to fastfall an Fair, then release a down-B as fast as you possibly can. It has to be a "real" down-B, like release it as soon as it gets some charge... I guess I'll have to practice the timing for that. An empty down-B just means you keep travelling away along knockback.

The down-B is strictly better than a side-B, since it doesn't have the tiny extra boost that a side-B would cause. In fact, you can use down-B to help survive vertical KOs as well as horizontal ones! On my "largest possible custom stage", I could survive Luigi's up-B to a maximum of 95% by just fastfalling an Fair. However, fastfalled Fair > down-B allowed me to live up to 106%. An extra 11% survivability isn't bad!

Edit: o hai mr. dnes, it seems we disagree
*annoying voice* the fight is on!

 

[darkNES386]

Alright here goes my post:

Upon release the spin dash does greatly change the momentum... the problem is that this release will be too late since Sonic is still moving.

The down B has momentum changing effects upon startup which obviously is faster than the release of the spin dash.

With my DI skills and executing a fair>down B... remember doesn't matter if I release, I can save myself from an uncharged mario fsmash on one end of battlefield to the other at 155%

Can you do better infzy?

 

[infomon]

waah, you said Dair? do not Dair! Sonic can't even fastfall his Dair while he's in knockback it's the only move in the game that I've found has that problem, lolol.

Although I guess you said to Fair first, and the Fair should be fastfalled...... but then I don't know what benefit you think you'd get from the Dair.

But you scratched that anyway...... oh, you posted something new, lemme read it lol

 

[darkNES386]

Ok... yeah I suck at this. I didn't realize I might be fast falling sometimes and sometimes not.

I can survive at 159 by I believe I am fair/fastfall>downB (and yes this is in training mode where knockback is not reduced)

So many variables to watch out for.

 

[Tenki]

Waiiit.

What about F-air> Side/downB?

I'm sure their single charges are faster than having to wait out F-air's ending lag.

 

[darkNES386]

Waiiit.

What about F-air> Side/downB?

I'm sure their single charges are faster than having to wait out F-air's ending lag.

Specials can't come out as fast as aerials

 

[Tenki]

Specials can't come out as fast as aerials

I looked up crying baby on google, but it was meh.
I looked up crying emo, and it was ugly.
I looked up crying emo ugly, and I found this

 

[infomon]

Come on Tenki, step it up! I recommend you watch my previous videos on momentum-cancelling:
[How to Recover, after DI: momentum-cancelling, etc.]
[Recovering in Brawl: Momentum-Cancelling examples]

(particularly the first one, the second is just some extra examples)

Hitstun has two phases. In the first you can't do anything. In the second, you can airdodge, aerial, Z-air, or throw an item. You can't use a Jump or Special out of hitstun. That's why we escape hitstun with our fastest aerial (Fair), fastfalled (since you can fastfall before reaching the apex of your knockback trajectory, lol), and then maybe use a Jump or Special to counteract the remaining portion of knockback.

dNES: Are you DI'ing? Are you hitting with Mario's Fsmash sweetspot (17%) or the weaker 14% hit? Battlefield's prolly not the best place to test on, since it's small so you can't see what's happening to Sonic towards the end, and it's hard to compare multiple options that may appear equivalent at shorter distances.

Edit: you ugly, crying emo

 

[darkNES386]

Come on Tenki, step it up! I recommend you watch my previous videos on momentum-cancelling:
[How to Recover, after DI: momentum-cancelling, etc.]
[Recovering in Brawl: Momentum-Cancelling examples]

(particularly the first one, the second is just some extra examples)

Hitstun has two phases. In the first you can't do anything. In the second, you can airdodge, aerial, Z-air, or throw an item. You can't use a Jump or Special out of hitstun. That's why we escape hitstun with our fastest aerial (Fair), fastfalled (since you can fastfall before reaching the apex of your knockback trajectory, lol), and then maybe use a Jump or Special to counteract the remaining portion of knockback.

dNES: Are you DI'ing? Are you hitting with Mario's Fsmash sweetspot (17%) or the weaker 14% hit? Battlefield's prolly not the best place to test on, since it's small so you can't see what's happening to Sonic towards the end, and it's hard to compare multiple options that may appear equivalent at shorter distances.

Yeah I just gave up... tenki and I fail. I was on FD not BF incase I mis said that. My last post was after I realized I wasn't taking in account mario's sweet spot... which is probably why you're doing this on DK ... bigger hitbox... am I right? How horrible of a tester am I? LoL... I should stick to counting frames.

 

[infomon]

lolol, well I was able to survive Mario's non-sweetspot Fsmash on Battlefield at 150 without DI, but like... it was hard.... I was all "onoez dNes has maaad skiiiillz!"

DK is easy because you can be at lower percent to observe the effects, he has a sweetspot but you can avoid it (or get it? I'm not sure) consistently by just moving as close as possible into him (although sometimes he pushes you away in one of his "I'm bored" animations, lol), and he doesn't move forward during his Fsmash like Mario does