Make Your Move 14 - This is Snake, I'm done here

Smash Daddy

Smash Master
Apr 29, 2007
K Rool Avenue

The Fantasy Moveset Design Contest

The spirit of this contest is that there's no holds barred on what characters are allowed. Remember all those times when you were told, "they can't possible be in Smash Bros!" Make Your Move is open to any ideas no matter how ridiculous. You may well never see that character who you love implemented into the series, but you can share in the community's love for the games and the culture that built up behind this incredible series over the years. If you really want to test your skills at making sets, each thread culminates in a vote to see what set is most popular. You only need advertise three sets in the last week to be a voter! Make Your Move has a long, well-recorded history spanning half a decade, hundreds of movesets and thousands of posts. We welcome you to be a part of it!​

Moveset Creation
If a dictionary entry for moveset existed, it would read as: a collection of functions for a character to perform in a video game, which aims to be easily-transferred. There is a dictionary of some of the most common terms used in movesetting [HERE] that should help clue in the clueless as to what the basics of a moveset are. Remember that you can always send a private message to a leader requesting help on your set – Smash Daddy and ForwardArrow especially.

Here are some examples from our leadership of some sets we're most proud of and should give an indication of what our very best heads can achieve.

One of the most dreaded and confusing parts of making a set is in the stats section, where it used to be that people simply had to ballpark where exactly their character would lie compared to the enigmatic Brawl figures. A list can be found [HERE] to help one better visualize this tedious chore.

It's a well-kept philosophy in Make Your Move that reading other people's sets inherently helps you to improve your own way of thinking and making movesets. This is why others will dissect and advise on your work - so don't be afraid if people are critical, they're only trying to help.

On that same note, though, we're always open to those who do want to put their own opinions out there and judge other people's sets, even if you don't feel you're as experienced as others. Like with sets, the more differing opinions we can get in comments, the more well-adjusted we can become. Without comments, it’s very difficult to tell that anyone has actually read your work, and since commenters have been dwindling in recent contests, they’re quite sought after.

MYmini and Other Activities
After so long, some stuff gets cut from the typical moveset make-up - extras being one of them, from victory theme to series logo, they're all gone! However, JOE! posts a weekly mini, creating a weekly contest-within-a-contest for extras like Bosses, Assist Trophies, Stages, and what have you. JOE! posts the most recent mini in both the thread, as well as the front page of the Bunker.

There are some other things going on in Make Your Move too, though. For one thing, Smash Daddy ran his own little points system in the User Rankings based off of people's activity. There are a handful of people who run their own personal rankings, including MasterWarlord, ForwardArrow, and Frozenroy of leadership. These just reflect our personal opinions, and are far from definitive. These are just three examples of us being entrepreneurs in our own ways. Links to all of these will be added once they get underway at the start of the contest.

Deadline and End Date
All sets posted in the thread up until the deadline are up for voting, and can place in the Top Fifty at the end of the contest. This three-four month period is called the submission period. The submission deadline, when this period ends will be determined by the leadership and posted with a few weeks’ notice in the thread based off how active the MYM is. The deadline will generally be posted at least a couple weeks, if not a month, in advance.

This is the culmination of our months of hard work to make good movesets, as everyone comes together and votes on their favorite sets from throughout the contest. The criteria for everyone may be different, but no one can deny that vindicating feeling that comes from putting lots of effort into a set and seeing it flourish come voting time.

The voting itself is a rather open process to anyone who wants to participate. We do recommend that you try to read and comment as many sets as you can to give yourself the best point-of-view, however. There are some rules though, stemming from the most basic of, don't vote for your own sets.

The big requirement to vote comes in the advertising week, which takes place during the week after the submission period. During this time, any prospective voter has to post 3 advertisements for other people's sets, only then being qualified to vote in the following week, which we shall call the voting week. Advertisements are sort of like comments - you post things you like about the set and recommend it to others, reminding them of a set they had forgotten about or telling them about it for the first time.

The voting week is where you send in your votes to the vote gurus (FrozenRoy and myself), and then collectively everyone's votes form the Top Fifty - the fifty sets which gained the most votes in all. Everyone gets 36 votes altogether, which are broken up into three different kinds of votes. 6 of them are Super Votes, 15 are Regular Votes and 15 are Weak Votes. Super Votes are worth more than Regular Votes are worth more than Weak Votes. The point being, you rank the sets you like on your vote list, giving preference to your absolute favorites.

The Top Fifty
This is the end result of the voting, as sets are now ranked on the basis of their accumulated votes. The sets which received the most votes rest at the top - in the famed Top Ten - while the less popular sets rest lower on the list. Leadership does make some changes to the list such as breaking ties, but nothing major.

The most sought after spot on the list is the top spot, that set in effect "winning" the contest and that Make Your Move. This is an achievement that only a handful of people in the community have achieved.

Beyond the Thread
While MYM may seem to be reserved only for this thread, there is actually a whole lot more beyond it for you to explore. These are all set up and run by members of the community - I'd recommend bookmarking them or at least checking them out, as they are all invaluable resources for any budding moveset maker.

The new home of the MYM chat, Skype is better than XAT in every way. We talk about Pokémon, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Touhou and sometimes even movesets. If you want to be added to the Skype group, likelihood is that you'll be asked eventually if you're currently active in the thread, but if not, simply PM one of the leaders listed below. We dissuade using your real name or image: keep it anonymous.

The Stadium - dedicated to providing an up-to-date moveset list for Make Your Move 14, important leadership Announcements and having more helpful FAQs and guides than you could shake a stick at. This is also the residential home of the leadership and one of the oldest, finest establishments the community has. If I were in the habit of taking over Make Your Move with my set quality alone, I would here start my initial research.

The Bunker serves as a bit of an a hotspot in our community, allowing anyone who signs up to post their own articles - getting their opinion out in written form. From there, others can give their opinion on them, which, like commenting, helps everyone. If you want to sign up, just PM your e-mail [and intended purpose thereof] to Junahu.

The Whiteboard - a forum introduced in Make Your Move 14, that allows for the posting of sets in bite-sized chunks for a preview. This is a handy resource for any member of the community to post what they have of a completed set, to get advice from others. It also has a section to post old uncompleted sets or archive work that has been made unreadable on SWF, due to coding changes, such as sets that are wholly images and have unfortunately been re-sized.

This is generally seen as the personified elite of the contest and those people who actually do have some limited responsibilities in running this business. If anything goes wrong, it's your job to blame all of us, every one.

Smash Daddy
Won two contests, the OP of three, including this one. A good person to turn to if you need help making a moveset or have general queries.

With his fresh win in MYM 13, ForwardArrow is more confident than ever in his movesetting ability, and is beginning to become something of a household name.

A new leader who can draw and promotes Make Your Move with new ideas practically every week. If not toiling away at a huge project full of sets, Joe is also a high-level Smash player and fan of Project M and was an obvious leader candidate for some time.

A leader who came in mid MYM 13, FrozenRoy is perhaps the most enthusiastic about promoting MYM further in any way he can. His opinion on some things is very diverse from what typical leadership thinking, making him quite unique.

A legend in all respects now that he has been banished from this forum. But he remains in leadership and may someday return.

Here at Make Your Move, we also have to adhere to Smash World Forum's rules and regulations. Read them [HERE] and do your part to keep the thread clean. Please remember to report before replying to posts that break the rules.
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Smash Apprentice
Mar 7, 2013
First day of the contest, yay!

I'm preparing my first character. I already know his mechanics and playstyle, it's not gonna be long! He only lacks normals and a Final Smash now... I hope to post it before wednesday. I'm working on him since MYM 13's end, so I hope you will like him!

(Yes, I am a very enthusiastic person XD )


Rainbow Waifu
Dec 16, 2012
Switch FC
A quick question: Is it necessary to include damage dealt by each move in the moveset that I post?


Smash Lord
Apr 26, 2007
Las Vegas, Nevada
Froy Day!

That's right, it's not a Friday, it's a Froy Day! It's not exact but, due to when MYM13 ended, this is when Froy Day begins!

A little over one year ago, I joined Make Your Move, back in Make Your Move 12, with my first moveset, Scizor. Ah, how things have changed since then...but what a wonderful trip it has been! From the depths of Demyx to the heights of Alice, I have experienced high and low. I've travelled from Point A to Point B, if you will.

To celebrate all of the fun I have had here, I wanted to make a big day for myself, a Froy Day in the vein of Junaday if you will. I initially planned for it to be a bit bigger than this, involving four movesets: God Tier Jade, Mace Windu, Croagunk and Lucemon, in addition to a large Match-Ups section for them in a seperate post and maybe even some extras. Unfortunately, various issuess cropped up that hindered this, most notably needing more time to brainstorm God Tier Jade and Lucemon.

So instead I, today, bring you three sets: Croagunk, Mace Windu and SwallowMan.EXE. (EDIT: I later finished another moveset, Megumi Kitaniji, which was posted outside this order) They will be posted in that order, which also tells you the order I like them, with Croagunk best and SwallowMan worst. God Tier Jade and Lucemon will be posted some other day, but most certainly not forgotten.

I have also set five goals in MYM14 for myself, which are as follows:

1. Have fun! The most important goal.
2. Post ten sets! I got up to eight before and I'm starting with 3, I want to reach double digits!
3. To not be dead in the middle of the contest! In both MYM12 and MYm13, for reasons either in or out of my control, my activity in MYM waned halfway through the contest. I want to avoid that. I want to be omnipresent. So I will try to be as active as I can, even in the middle of the contest!
4. Make Top 10. This isn't one I'm really going for much, but it would be nice to see how long I can keep T10 streaks going.
5. Best Alice! Yes, that's right, I want to go beyond that and see if I can best my best set, MYM12's Alice Margatroid. It will be hard and it is not a goal I have specifically in mind, but it is something that has been in the back of my head for a while now. And I will do it.

Those are my 5 Froydian Goals.

Anyway! This post will also provide links to the three sets as they go up, as seen below:

Megumi Kitaniji
Mace Windu

...And will track the success of my goals.

Thank you for listening, everyone! I hope you all have a good MYM14! Maybe I'll even make some articles...


Smash Lord
Apr 26, 2007
Las Vegas, Nevada

Croagunk, the Toxic Mouth Pokemon. Poison/Fighting type. Its cheeks hold poison sacs. It tries to catch foes off guard to jab them with toxic fingers. Inflating its poison sacs, it filles the area with an odd sound and hits flinching opponents with a poison jab. It rarely fights fairly, but that is strictly to ensure survival. It is popular as a mascot.


Croagunk is a small little bugger, standing at around the size of Lucas or Ness, but even lighter: He only weighs as much as Olimar. And while his speed is good, Pikachu level, it isn't elite, although the soles of his feet given him excellente traction.

Aerially speaking, Croagunk remains unamazing. He doesn't have the greatest of aerial control, a bit below average really, but he has slightly above average aerial speed and is neither floaty nor a fast faller. His jumps go a very average distance, as well, perhaps a slightly smaller than usual first jump but it gives him an excellent short hop. He can crawl and wall jump and has an interesting little ability: Crouch and then use your first jump and, in addition to looking like a frog, you'll get double your normal first jump height. Totally useless for recovery, but useful for aerial chases. He can't cling, glide or float or nuthin' else, though.


Neutral Special: Poison Jab

Croagunk steps forward and releases a quick jab or, if you hold down the button, a quick flurry of jabs, attacking with his poisonous knuckles. Rapidly firing off multiple jabs per second, this attack moves Croagunk forward ever-so-slightly with each strike. Each strike is weak, only dealing 2% damage and almost no knockback, but each strike will also poison the foe: 5 seconds of 1% damage or, if already poisoned, adding another 3 seconds of 1% on to it.

While this doesn't seem much, it adds up quickly, especially when you can get in 2-3 jabs per use at lower levels of damage. Camping against Croagunk due to this is highly unrecommended, as he'll outdamage you with poison if he ever gets in close and has some mean counter-camping abilities. Instead, fighting Croagunk head-on is the best way to out-damage him...but that of course leaves you close for more jabs and his close range game. What a connundrum.

If you hit a shield, Croagunk can poison that too, doing the same poison damage to it whenever it is up, although it will not deal shieldstun. Although only 1% damage, it can be quite annoying and chip at a shield. Poisoning is also an effective way to kill minions.

Side Special: Faint Attack

Croagunk rushes forward a Battlefield Platform at Fox's dash speed. If Croagunk does not run into an enemy or anything, this is merely a movement move to allow Croagunk to move forward faster at the expensive of being open during ending lag.

If Croagunk approaches a foe, an attack, a stage obstruction such as a wall, a projectile or a trap and so on, Croagunk will side step it and, if it is the foe or the foe doing an attack, counter with a punch for 6% and weak knockback, stopping there. Croagunk will keep sidestepping without coming back if he goes through a stage obstruction longer than a sidestep or what-not, but will always stop after one Battlefield Platform. If he would stop inside the stage or something, he is immediately ejected out. Traps will still be triggered, so it also makes an excellent clearer outter of one-time traps.

Croagunk will often use this against people who like to set traps or terraform the stage to avoid them or as a movement-counter, but the ending lag means that a smart foe might just shield or be outside of your range. Croagunk can also use this as a mid-air horizontal recovery, but this will put him into helpless. Exercise caution with this one.

Down Special: Revenge

Croagunk braces himself and pulls back his fist to prepare for an epic strike, then hits the foe for...6% damage and weak knockback. Considering this move isn't really fast at the start or the end, this feels like a bit of a rip. However, this move gives you total flinch resistance during start-up (though you still take damage). Get hit during this and you'll triple the damage to 18% and send foes flying right off-stage at 100%!

Revenge is a very powerful killing tool for Croagunk because of this, but extremely reliant on the foe, and while it functions as a counter you'll still be taking the full damage of the move. But the raw power of a properly executed Revenge cannot be denied, and a foe berserking to kill you before the poison racks up so you just need to tap them off can cause foes to give in to this move easily.

Up Special: Leapfrog

Is it any surprise that the recovery of a frog is to leap? Croagunk gives a mighty kick down to boost himself high, spiking anyone he hits for 11% damage but with the power of Falco's DAir...if you hit with the kick part, anyway, the rest of his body merely deals a paltry 7% and weak knockback, and he has no hitbox during the actual move, although he does have knockback resistance on par with Yoshi's second jump.

Speaking of second jumps, this move becomes greatly more useful if you haven't used it: If you've used your second jump, this won't even go as far as Marth's Dolphin Slash...but if you haven't, he puts all that energy into this, giving you a single bound roughly on par with King DeDeDe's Up Special! This does have some disadvantagous, though: just like D3's jump, it's easy to suicide with, and the normal Up Special will not leave you in helpless, while the souped up version of the Up Special will. Because of this, the normal Up Special is a better attack or chaser, while the souped up Up Special is a better (if very predictable) recovery.


Jab: Poison Fang

Croagunk bites forward with it's mouth, dealing 2% and injecting poison into the foe. This is even worse poison than before, as it deals 2.5% per hit, but it only lasts 2.5 seconds, so it deals the same amount as normal poison. If the foe is afflicted with normal poison however, this attack becomes quite deadly, as it upgrades all remaining poison in that to badly poisoned. So if the foe had 4 seconds from Poison Jab left, they now have 4 seconds of worse poison dealing 2.5%! It won't affect future poison, though. IE Hitting with Poison Jab again in that scenario will not add 3 more seconds of bad poison, just normal poison. If you hit a shielding foe with this, then the poison effects will act the same as if you hit the normal foe, transferring any shield poison into bad shield poison and so on.

Camping foes will be wary of being hit by this because it means they can't match the damage output as well, but close range foes will try to murder Croagunk and his poor weight before they take it all, so close range opponents are somewhat less affected due to how they play. This move can still put some real hurt on any foe, though.

Forward Tilt: Sucker Punch

Croagunk slams the foe with a quick punch, dealing 9% damage but somewhat weak knockback. It's quick on both ends, though, so it's still very useful.

More useful is the fact that you can use it during a sidestep! It still does the same damage, but it allows Croagunk another way to dodge and strike the foe, but one much quicker than Revenge and with less strings attached than Faint Attack. It also gives Croagunk the almost entirely unique incentive to, instead of grabbing, sidestep the foe and strike back. Tilting back will cause Croagunk to attack behind him and turn around even during the step, allowing him to hit rollers and sidestep people behind him but still counter attack. Use this with Revenge and Faint Attack to dominate foes!

Down Tilt: Astonish

Croagunk does a quick spin, holding his hands out around him, dealing 7% damage and no knockback. Just like his Forward Tilt though, it's quick on both ends: Croagunk has a lot of low damage quick moves, making poison damage essential. Hitting the foe with this move will spin the foe around like Mario's cape, allowing you to foil all kinds of attacks and to mess with characters who lack a lot of good moves that hit all around or behind them. Aside from that though, it's a good quick move that hits all around you, so it has it 's uses.

Dash Attack: Fake Out

Croagunk performs his roll animation in the direction he was running, though it would be more apt to say he just rolls given how he is invincible like a roll. Instead of just rolling though, he instead gives a quick slap forward during the end lag of the roll, striking for 6% damage and flinching to anyone unlucky to be hit by this. You can pretty much always combo this into Poison Jab or your grab, so it's excellent to hit with...

Whiff or hit a shield, though, and Croagunk will lose his balance, taking the ending lag from quite low to very high and leaving him extremely vulnearable. Of course, you can also trick the foe with a roll to try and shield it, then quickly grab them. It's all about reading for both you and the foe. Used properly, however, and this move is one of your most excellent in a bag of tricks.

Up Tilt: Uppercut

One of Croagunk's most simple moves, he leans back before jumping unleashing an upwards punch for 11% damage and some surprisingly good, though not KO strength, vertical knockback. This move causes Croagunk to jump his normal jump height while punching, so it has a lot of range, although while it is quick to start it has somewhat large ending lag, making this an option to enter the air only when you expect a hit.

One interesting thing about this move is that he can influence his direction a fair deal better than usual during the jump and start-up, which gives it some surprising range to the sides. Still, it is a good anti-air move with potential for bringing the foe into the air and following up with yeah.

Grab Game

Grab: Croagrab

Croagunk leans forward and grabs with his arms. The lean gives it very good range, like King DeDeDe, but it's speed is so-so, perhaps even a bit slow-slow.

Pummel: Poison Sting

Croagunk quickly stings the foe with a quick punch, rapidly doing so at the speed of Lucario's pummel of held down or repeatedly tapped. It only deals 0.5% damage per pummel, but each strike gives a second of normal 1% poison damage, so it can wrack up absurd damage on highly damage foes...but at that point, you want KOing, not damage racking. Still, combining it with grabs at even low percents is excellent, and at medium percents it is at it's most deadly, able to push foes right into killin' range.

Down Throw: Low Sweep

Croagunk wraps it's leg around one of the opponents or, if the foe's size makes that infeasible, merely kicks them over for 6% damage, tripping them. Croagunk doesn't have any explicit prone abuse, but he does have ways to techchase foes and make use of the advantageous position: check chasing into more grabs for the pummel or, at lower percentages, Poison Jabs is an excellent example, while Revenge can murder the opponent if you predict a get-up attack. You can also chase after foes with Side Special, either putting distance between you or smacking them for a hit. Because of this, this throw has a lot of uses despite it's low damage output.

Forward Throw: Clear Out

Croagunk gives the opponent a rough shove, pushing them away (but keeping them on the ground) a Battlefield platform and dealing 10% damage to them. You and the foe are left in a frame neutral situation when this occurs. While this doesn't sound like much, Croagunk has a wide variety of options out of this position: Will he immediately rush forward with a Side Special? Maybe he'll dash and strike with a swift Dash Attack...or fake one, roll and land a grab, resetting the situation with another Forward Throw while building damage? He can even just run if he feels he needs the space. What at first appears to be a simple throw can turn into a wealth of entertaining possibilities, if one keeps a keen eye and an open mind.

Back Throw: Poison Fang #2

Croagunk bites the foe for 2% damage, then throws them behind them from the mouth for 5% damage, turning around while doing so. This is a pretty basic throw without a lot of knockback, but it will cause the foe to be badly poisoned for 1 second or, if already poisoned, convert two seconds of poison into being badly poisoned. While obviously inferior to the Jab, it is an alternate way to inject them with some souped up poison if need be, and you can use it right after a pummel to gain the effects immediately and before getting in a jab. Because of this, it has uses.

Up Throw: Drain Punch

Croagunk spits some fluid on his fist before slamming it into the foe's torso, punching them into the air for good knockback that KOs at 180% and 10% damage. The great thing about this is how the fluid absorbs poison from the foe and heals Croagunk with it: Up to 10%, the amount of damage done, depending on how much the foe is poisoned. It'll remove the poison from the foe, though. How this works is: Lets say the opponent is poisoned for 1% per second for the next 5 seconds. This will remove the poison, but heal Croagunk 5%. This continues for up to 10%.

By badly poisoning the foe, therefor only needing 4 seconds of bad poison, and healing off, Croagunk can try and overcome his poor weight and predictable recovery while still striking the foe. Very useful.


Forward Smash: Vacuum Wave

Croagunk rapidly spins his arm as if preparing a punch during charging and start-up lag, creating a very minor vacuum effect: Anyone within a Battlefield Platform in front of him is drawn in at the very slow speed of Ganondorf's run (not dash) speed. It's not much, but it can be quite a nuisance, and against slower characters make this move quite interesting to hit.

Release this move and Croagunk will violently fire forward the wave of energy he was building with his swing, in a manner similiar to a certain ball of energy from a fighting game we all know. This projectile is quite slow moving, but it has good distance: It goes 1.5 Battlefield platforms before dissipating. It is also fairly strong: It'll deal 15%-18% upon hitting, although KO power is limited, topping out at 200%-180%. Start-up lag is quite average, but it has quite bad ending lag, as the violent release of the wave unbalances Croagunk and he has to regain it and recover. Due to this and other factors like range and slowness, it is a poor camping technique.

So what use is it? Well, using it after a Forward Throw is a great way to put a foe into a bind, but it is also a mid-range attacks: important when you consider Croagunk's limbs don't give it much range and disjointed hitboxes are murder. It can also put a real crimp in the foe's gameplan to fight you: it's slow moving may make it bad for camping, but it makes it great to keep around while the foe is close and has to worry about it, or to throw out against approaches. As long as you keep aware of the hefty ending lag, it's a technique that will service you well.

Down Smash: Venoshock

Croagunk brings his hands to his mouth, coating them with a special poison from his mouth, before performing a punch to both sides of him. Due to this start-up animation it has a bit of starting lag, but it finishes quickly, while doing low damage, 12%-14%, and only KOing at 220%. While this sounds pretty lame, anyone who knows what Venoshock does will not be surprised with what I say next: Hit a poisoned foe with this and the special poison coat will interact with the foe's poison for some serious hurt. Serious enough to double the damage done, giving you a range of 24%-28%, and KO at 140%-120%.

Not only that, but remember how you can poisoning shields? Yeah, this move deals double damage (and double damage from the 24%-28% range to boot!) to shields, which can do some serious cracking to them if they've taken any prior damage. The best way to dodge this is a roll or by being outside of it's short range: short range + long start-up lag = hard to hit with.

Up Smash: Gunk Shot

Croagunk gathers poison gunk in his mouth before aiming upwards and firing it up into the air, a pretty average start-up lag for a move that does pretty average damage, 16%-19%, and only decent KO power, 170%-150% of vertical knockback. Croagunk is a better shorthopper than an aerial chaser, but he does have the crouch-jump to chase foes high if he wants. Speaking of high, that's how this move goes: The gunk shot goes very high, similiar to Snake's U-Smash but higher uncharged (but the same height fully charged). Because of this, Croagunk can use this move as a sort of psuedo-defensive ability and almost like an aerial trap, shooting up a Gunk Shot and trying to get the foe under it or retreating behind it while a foe approaches, which gives Croagunk a library of options to deal with the foe (such as grab -> F-Throw into Gunk Shot). At the same time, it only goes straight-up, so it can be tricky to land as a purely anti-air move: Your up tilt is probably better for that.


Neutral Aerial: Flying Kick

Croagunk kicks forward for 9% damage and surprisingly good knockback that can KO at 210% or so. This move comes out quick and has average ending lag, but it also has quite poor range. What it also has is sex kick properties that, combined with the fact it auto-cancels if you hit the ground during it, makes it an amazing move to shorthop or when nearing the ground, as you can transition seamlessly from a sex kick, perhaps even one intentionally hit when weak to keep the foe close, then smack them with a Poison Jab, grab them, or do any number of games with predicting with Revenge or utilizing your Dash Attack. Basic move, advanced application.

Down Aerial: Brick Break

Croagunk slams both of it's arms down with a short ranged but powerful double-fisted strike, similiar to Ike's down aerial, dealing 13% damage and a powerful spike. This move's hitbox stays out for quite a while...but that means he remains very vulnearable and, due to the very high landing lag, really needs to hit the foe with this. If he hits a foe though, he'll pop off of them just a little, giving him more time to finish the move. This move also deals double shield damage, striking them when they are at their weakest, which combined with shield poison and Venoshock can create quite the situation for your foe.

Up Aerial: Random Frogkick

Croagunk does a quick flipkick over his head, dealing 6% damage and little knockback, which combined with it's quick speed on both end makes it your basic juggler. Croagunk isn't the best juggler, but he does have ways to chase high with his crouch-jump and get people there with Gunk SHot, not to mention going into this from up tilt to chase a foe. All very basic stuff, but it does give Croagunk the ability to do some basic damage racking on a foe who has too much ability to dodge poison.

Back Aerial: Air Punch

Croagunk turns around and punches behind him, dealing 14% damage with good knockback that KOs at 165% or so. It's short ranged, but quite to come out and one of Croagunk's few good KO moves...ending lag is pretty bad, though. Basic move with nothing special, really.

Forward Aerial: Dual Chop

Croagunk chops forward with one of his hands, then chops with the other, each doing 7%, the first doing almost no knockback and the second doing weak knockback. It's quick to execute, quick to come out, quick to end and does more damage to shield than just 7%. Because of this, it's another good option to fight shields with. Plus, you can use the double attack to try and get around air dodges!


Final Smash

Final Smash: Focus Punch

Croagunk does a quick swipe with his hand, a small ranged attack that deals just 1% and stuns the they can get hit by the massively charged punch Croagunk was preparing! It deals 30% damage and KOs at 60%, so it's very strong, and it's quickness is good...but the range is quite awful. Whoo!


Croagunk's playstyle, on the surface, is as simple as it is elegant, roughing up the foe with poison and then striking with quick attacks to keep the foe off balanced. This is, indeed, the crux of the moveset. But it goes beyond that: Croagunk is all about forcing approaches, as his poison can far outdamage campers if he gets close, even moreso when you combine his Neutral Special with his Jab. This is combined with the fact Croagunk is light and his recovery is, while good, not elite. The foe's best option is to approach and out-damage, to try and match Croagunk blow for blow.

So Croagunk is based all around poison, pressure and protection: Poisoning the foe with your Neutral Special is a key part of the moveset, as Croagunk has a low damage output and poison will greatly fix this. Pressure keeps the foe off balance and helps rack up the damage fast: strike with lightning quick moves like your Jab, Forward Tilt and Down Tilt, not to mention use your library of excellent grabs to really mess up the foe. And finally, protection: Use Side Special as an approach or a getaway, use your sidestep to strike back with a vicious Forward Tilt, reset the match's momentum with a shieldgrab leading into a Down Throw or set them up in perfect position with a Forward Throw into a Forward Smash, shorthopped aerial, Side Special or rolling retreat, or knock a desperate foe right off the stage with a vicious Revenge! Croagunk has a good deal of options for his focused playstyle.

Croagunk is not without his weaknesses, though. Beware of aerial characters first and foremost: With an Up Smash that is not always the best anti-air move and aerials more designed for shorthops than aerial combat, you can quickly find yourself in trouble unless the foe is in the air on your terms. Remember that the stronger the foe's attacks, the more precise you absolutely must be, given Croagunk is easy to knock off. Croagunk's worst enemies are probably offensive ones who can give him the best run for his money up close or have disjointed hitboxes, as Croagunk has small range and can be outdamaged. You may want to make increased use of Drain Punch in these battles.

Even with this, remember Croagunk has powerful options both in mindgames, such as Dash Attack, and even in KO and damaging potential, such as Venoshock. Just focus on getting in that key poison, keeping it up and applying pressure, while maintaining protection, and you should be good. Yes, the three Ps: Poison, Pressure, Protection.

Smash Daddy

Smash Master
Apr 29, 2007
K Rool Avenue
Nate's first day sets will be added after the rest. Lets go Ultron.

We've set a good quality trend in first sets of the contest, that Croagunk is proud to continue. I actually do vividly remember Toxicroak, a set that focused on using poison damage and this is an appropriately similar approach. Croagunk has greater reason to use this to augment its damage, seeing as it's a pre-evolution of an already made moveset, but it doesn't use that as a crux to be less than its forbearer. In fact, the set makes the poison into a far improved mechanic in the context of its wonderfully campy and pragmatic playstyle. There's a simple hand at subversion to avoid confrontation in the standards, piling on damage using the throws and jab attack. You nailed the defensive playstyle, Roy, without sacrificing any of the character's natural flash. Generally this type of set falters when it comes to the grab game and smashes, however, among Croagunk's best moments are these two sections. I'm not a fan of the generic forward throw and forward smash isn't as unique in the same section as up smash. Those aside, the other moves are very well executed and keeps the momentum of this simple Pokémon going where you'd expect the author to give up. What I love is the elegant combination of moves to force an approach, making Croagunk into the silent killer he should be and making the set a cut above other sets of this style in my view. Where it loses points is in the aerials. Functional is all the praise I can give, while these moves have a defined use in the playstyle, they needed to be differentiated from other similar moves in Brawl to keep my attention. Far from ruining the set, though, it simply meant the set reached not quite as far above my expectations. I would certainly agree it's one of your best.

darth meanie

Smash Journeyman
Jun 6, 2008
Tomoe Mami is a Puella Magi from Puella Magi Madoka Magica, a well regarded anime series from early 2011. Mami is a middle school student with a great deal of experience hunting witches, invisible magical monsters that haunt the world by possession people with depression and suicidal thoughts.
With her magic, she is able to summon rifled muskets that she uses to fight witches and their familiars, along with cloth ribbons that she can manipulate to attack or restrict her enemies. With a heart for justice and a good head on her shoulders, Mami joins the brawl!

Mami is all in all your average middle school girl in build, although just slightly tall for her age. She's about the same size as Luigi and weighs just slightly less than Marth. When it comes to movement, she's fairly fast, just shy of the speed of Pikachu on the ground, with excellent traction. Her jump height and fall speed is around the same as Fox, allowing her to quickly jump up to a surprising height and reach the ground faster still than floatier characters. Her air speed isn't quite up to par though, just barely faster than Meta Knight's, forcing her to rely on other methods to quickly maneuver through the air.
Zero Suit Samus players will find themselves right at home using Mami. She handles quite similiarly, has a combination of ranged specials and standard attacks that give her strong spacing tools, and strong vertical mobility, as well as a weakness to shield pressure if her zoning game fails. Mami has many tools all her own as well though that gives her a unique and rewarding playstyle to experiment with.

Neutral Special - Floating Rifles

Mami swings her right arm across her chest in front of her, exhaling briefly. A rifled musket appears in a flash of golden light, floating next to her, aimed at a 25° downward angle. The entire process takes less than half a second, stalling her momentum if used in midair. Mami can summon up to three different rifles at once, each in a different spot, but they will all point in the direction the first was summoned, regardless of which way she faces. Attempting to summon a fourth rifle will cause the first one to vanish.
Hold down the B button, and Mami shouts "Fire!" swinging her right arm down, Each rifle fires a bullet out sequentially in the order she summoned them, taking barely a moment for even three rifles to discharge. Each shot does 7% damage in a tiny, incredibly fast projectile that travels perfectly straight and only stops when it hits something. The hitstun and knockback are moderate, not KOing outright until over 200%, although opponents offstage can be KO'd much earlier. Each rifle summoned in this way then fades away, disappearing.
Down Special - Shooting Rifles
This time, Mami swings her left arm forward, and in a golden flash of light a single rifle dissolves into existence, pointed down into the ground (or dropping in the air) about half a battlefield platform in front of her; just too far away from her to pick up from where she stands. When Mami picks up a ground rifle, she uses it in the same way as a cracker launcher. She can walk back and forth while holding it, and move her aim up or down using the control stick, allowing for very precise aim, but making it difficult to quickly line up a shot. The rifle fires a very quick shot identical to how it works in her neutral special. The rifle only has one shot, but she still holds onto it, and can attack as normal. In fact, her smashes can all be used more quickly with a rifle equipped, as she doesn't have to summon a new one, but she cannot fire it in any of those moves. She can also throw her rifles like any other item. Her rifles fly very quickly, but deal weak damage for throwing items, averaging around 6-8% damage depending on the angle and strength of the throw. As mentioned before, Zero Suit Samus mains will be very comfortable with the effectiveness of thrown items, now available throughout the entire match. Opponents can catch rifles thrown at them in midair and throw them back, but cannot pick up rifles once they land on the ground, nor can they fire rifles they caught, even if the rifle has not used its shot.
Freshly summoned rifles will last a full fifteen seconds before starting to disappear like most items, while expended rifles will begin to flash immediately upon being thrown, disappearing as soon as they stop bouncing. Only two rifles summoned in this way may ever be on screen at once.
Up Special - Flying Ribbons

Mami throws her left arm up, and a ribbon shoots out from behind her shoulder at a steep upwards angle, extending out just over half the length of battlefield over the course of a quarter second. If it doesn't strike anything, it disappears and Mami appears to fumble, but the ending lag is less than that which most attacks of this nature usually suffer. Missing in midair leaves her helpless though, like with most tether recoveries.
Opponents who touch the ribbon take 3% damage, while opponents touched by the end of the ribbon while it is going up or once it is fully extended are wrapped by the ribbon in a grab. Mami grabs onto the ribbon and yanks down, and after copious freeze frames and a satisfying electric effect the unlucky opponent is spiked downwards, taking 7% damage and knockback that, if performed offstage, could potentially kill around 60% damage or lower. Opponents knocked into the ground this way are usually knocked prone unless they tech.
Unlike most other tether recoveries Mami's ribbon can attach to anything, including platforms above her and the bottom of the stage. If she attaches to a part of the stage this way, she'll swing forward very quickly, giving her a boost in midair and letting her jump at the end of the swing, a sort of psuedo-air dash . While swinging she can immediately cancel into any aerial, jump if she still has a midair jump remaining, or fire a rifle if she is holding one. She does not enter helpless at the end of this swing, but can only swing twice in midair before she has to touch the ground.
Side Special - Binding Ribbons

Mami throws her left hand out, releasing a harmless wave of magic, taking just long enough to take advantage of, if the opponent is expecting it. About 3 stagebuilder units ahead of her though ribbons start to appear from nowhere in an area slightly larger than Bowser. In one second, any opponent in the area of effect is grasped into a grab hitbox and rendered helpless, and must button mash to escape at normal grab difficulty.
Any attacks against the player in the ribbon lock will not deal damage. Instead, the attack will break the lock, freeing them early. Opponents however cannot rest easy, as they have two options when they escape: hold down on the control stick, and fall helpless, or lazily float up in the air, stuck in their aerial grab release animation. They cannot be grabbed by this attack again however until they touch solid ground.
Standard Attacks

Jab Attack - Beat Steps
Mami kicks low in front of her with her right foot, dealing 2% damage and almost no knockback or stun, coming out in a single frame. She can perform this twice in a sequence that combos against both enemies and shields. By tapping the button a third time though, she follows into a full spin, kicking out strongly with her right foot directly in front of her for 6% damage and can kill around 240%. This final hit is quick and has decent range for a girl her size. The hitbox also lingers until the end of the animation, making it one of the few melee moves safe against shields in brawl, but the shield pushback also knocks them out of the range of the first hits of her jab, also making her vulnerable to enemies with better melee range. Plan out carefully if you want to use the third hit, or how to avoid losing the advantage afterwards.
Forward Tilt - String Shot
Mami summons a rifle into her hands over the course of a fifth of a second, then fires at a low downward angle for the same damage and knockback of all of her rifle attacks that hits enemies in prone. If she is already holding an expended rifle when she starts this attack, she nonchalantly tosses it behind her as it disappears, taking no more start up than it would otherwise (trying to use this with a loaded rifle would just make her shoot, of course!) The range of the move is a bit tricky, but can hit around the same distance as Marth's Forward Smash.
More than that though, if a prone opponent is caught by this shot, small ribbons immediately grapple the enemy and lift them up into the air at Bowser's dash speed. The opponent can attack and DI to control their movement some, but is unable to escape until they are brought up about halfway to the top platform of battlefield, at which point they take awkward, floaty knockback upwards that leaves them vulnerable but not defenseless. They are immune to other grab attacks while wrapped in these ribbons, and any other attacks will knock them out of the effect. At the end of the attack, Mami holds an empty rifle that she can throw at will.
Up Tilt - High Touch
Mami quickly twists her left shoulder to face the opponent then lifts her arm high, fulling extending it upwards to deal 6% damage and moderate knockback. While the move has very little horizontal range, it's very quick at three frames and possibly her best option out of shield alongside her jab against close range opponents and can function as passable anti-air. It's important to keep spacing in mind of course, as attacks with significant shield push will make this attack no longer hit.
Down Tilt - Trip Ribbon
Mami crouches down by sitting on her heels, her knees just above the ground with her hands on the ground, as if she's ready to jump at a moment's notice. She swipes her right arm in front of her, conjuring a ribbon that stretches along the ground out about two stagebuilder units forward. If it strikes an opponent, they take 6% damage, with low knockback at the dreaded Sakurai angle. Sweetspotting the move at the tip will instead grab the opponent by the feet, and Mami changes animations, tugging for a guaranteed, untechable pratfall.
Dash Attack - Flipping Strike
Mami hops forward slightly then throws both her arms forward, propelling herself in a roundoff that travels the course of Snake's own dash attack. This deals 9% damage and not insignificant knockback, but has ending lag to match King Dedede's. Mami can pick up grounded rifles during this attack, which allows her to cancel the ending lag into an immediate rifle shot or glide toss instead, turning the attack's vulnerability into a potential opportunity.
Smash Attacks

Down Smash - Daka Kata

Mami spins around, summoning a rifle into each hand and extending them out like swords, dealing 11-16% damage and relatively strong, almost purely horizontal knockback. She makes one full revolution before either rifle appears, and there is no hitbox until the second revolution, giving it some significant start-up lag (with a rifle in hand, she then has an extra hit in the beginning, slightly weaker and doesn't link, but makes it safer to start). The range of this attack is excellent, hitting far on both sides, and tapping either left or right as Mami starts spinning will cause her to take a long step in that direction, letting her threaten even further in either direction.
Mami can keep the fun going even longer, tapping A will cause her to fire the rifles if they have any ammunition, angling the attack slightly up or down depending on the angle of the control stick. If there are any rifles on the ground near her, tapping A yet again will cause her to throw any expended ones slightly upwards, disappearing, then grab it and perform the attack all over again. In the right situation, you can quickly lay down a storm of attacks.
Foward Smash - Shooting Combo
Mami summons a rifle into her hands in a manner identical to her forward tilt, for sake of consistency, not mind games. Instead of performing a low angled shot however, Mami takes the rifle and swings it across in front of her horizontally, in an attack that can be angled up or down, like most forward smashes. This swing deals 11-17% damage on hit, and is a bit slower than most sword based smashes even with the reduced range, primarily becuase she has to create her weapon out of magic first.
Immediately after firing though, she reorients the rifle, barrel out to fire a follow-up shot. Just as you could angle the initial smash, you can change the angle of this shot ahead of time. The delay between the swing and the follow-up is surprisingly short, enough that a shielding or dodging player may not be able to strike back between the two, depending on character and distance, among other factors. This allows her to get another 7% damage in and turn the moderate knockback of the first shot into enough to KO an opponent at reasonable percentages. Do take care however, to keep in mind that the opponent will likely try to DI upwards to avoid the far blast zone, so you might want to aim high... or not, if you guess that's what they expect you to do. At the end of the attack, she is left with an empty rifle, which she can throw afterwards to keep up her zoning game or try to finish off the enemy.
Up Smash - Rifle Flair
Mami creates a rifle in her hands, taking a fifth of a second to start up if she doesn't have a rifle equipped already, then swings it upwards, dealing weak set upwards knockback and 4% damage. However, she then take her raised arm and whirls the rifle around like a cheerleader's baton, dealing eight rapid hits of 1.5% damage that suck the opponent in, with the final one dealing strong vertical knockback, but with only moderate knockback growth that combined with good DI makes it very difficult to actually land a complete kill with, but does launch opponents considerably, and with Mami equipped with a rifle at the end of the attack, she can fire it upwards or throw it in an attempt to finish enemies off. While the attack can be smash DI'd out of by players who just fall into the attack mid-spin, those hit by the initial strike are knocked right into the center, making escape almost impossible. That said, unlike most smashes, charging this one doesn't increase damage, but the speed of the rifle spin instead. A charged-up smash cannot be DI'd out of at all and ends more quickly, as well as dealing more knockback with the final hit. The attack can be used out of a dash attack canceled up smash, which gives her about as much movement as Link's and can be an effective sudden approach option with a defensive series of
Aerial Attacks

Grab Aerial - Ribbon Wrap
Mami swings her right arm forward, quickly summoning a golden ribbon that shoots out two stagebuilder units forward, dealing 5% and diagonal knockback that can KO at around 160% or higher.
By tapping in any of the eight cardinal directions after the attack hits though, Mami yanks the rope in midair, and instead the attack deals set knockback of 1.5 stagebuilder units in the direction pointed, with a fair bit of ending lag and hitstun both.
Down Aerial - Descent Kick
Mami kicks out forward, hesitating for a brief moment in midair before diving down and forward with both feet first in a quick kick that deals 10% damage and spiking knockback. After landing the move, she can cancel it into a footstool. If also counts as a recovery move and she can grab the ledge if she dives into it using this move, although as a dive kick, it's not exactly a great recovery tool. It has more horizontal movement than Sonic's down aerial though, making it also the fastest way for her to cover ground without using an Up Special ribbon to dash.
Back Aerial - Drop Kick
Surprising absolutely no one, Mami quickly kicks out behind her for 9% damage and moderate knockback in a fast, powerful aerial attack. Versatile, its a staple move for everything from air to air combat, jumping out of ribbons to attack, and simple defensive spacing.
Neutral Aerial - Tornado Strike
In a feat of acrobatic ability, Mami flips in midair, propelling herself slightly upwards and forwards as she simultaneously twists around, manipulating her momentum briefly. While upside down in midair, she summons a rifle in each hand and spins around, whacking any opponent in her way with a midair rifle for 8% damage and surprisingly decent knockback. The ending lag is significant as both rifles fade from existence and she reorients herself so that her feet face down, but the start-up is less than one might expect, giving her quick access to a strong offensive and defensive move.
Forward Aerial - Cloth Spear
Mami thrusts her right arm forward, summoning a long ribbon about one and a half stagebuilder units forward to attack at a slightly downward angle. The ribbon lingers for quite a while and comes out very fast, dealing multiple hits for about 3% damage to chip away before retreating back whence it came with moderate ending lag.
Up Aerial - Gun Jab
Mami generates a rifle in her arm, and thrusts it upwards, dealing 9% damage with good disjoint. The rifle disappears at the end of the attack. It has a bit of start lag, but the excellent range makes it a very solid juggler or poking move against aerial opponents.
Grab Game

Grab - Soaring Capture
Mami throws her right arm forward, just like she does in her grab aerial, and summons a chain ribbon that stretches out a surprising distance, up to half the length of battlefield if Mami holds the move out. The ribbon can even be angled up or down slightly, curving it to grab at enemies from above or below. Unsurprisingly, this attack has significant start and end lag that makes a whiffed grab easy to punish, and the attack unsuitable for reacting to shield pressure.
When she does grab someone, the tether doesn't snap back immediately either, but reels in over time. Mami can even perform all of her throws during this period, giving her unparalleled control, but opponents can also still escape as easily as normal while being reeled in. At low percentages a distant grab won't even successfully pull the opponent in all the way... but offers a very unique grab release opportunity with opponents who jump out, stuck in the air with a frame disadvantage.
Her pummel is utterly unremarkable; so unremarkable it doesn't even get a description. It's not as if she'll be using it much, or that it would affect anyone's opinion of the moveset.
Up Throw - Upheaval
Wit the opponent fully reeled in, Mami simply grabs the enemy with her right arm and tosses them up and slightly behind her for 5.5% damage, set knockback of two battlefield platforms, and a brief moment of reeling before they can break out and react again. With a ribbon pulling in the opponent, she instead yanks on the ribbon forcefully, but the result is still the same; set knockback and weak damage. The set knockback is in fact quite useful though; after familiarizing yourself with where you can place the opponent, you can put them into range of any floating rifles you have stationed or beneath a grounded rifle, ready to toss upwards to keep the pressure up.
Back Throw - Whiplash
Mami whirls around, using centrifugal force to launch the opponent behind her, dealing 8% damage and diagonally upwards knockback that becomes KO worthy around 120%, although at low percentages it is fairly pitiful. With opponents grabbed from a distance though, they are whirled around be on the opposite side of Mami, up to a battlefield platform's distance. In the right position, this can make the move suddenly into a powerful finisher or completely rearrange both player's positioning.
Down Throw - Ax Kick
A move for getting opponents closer in rather than distant spacing, Mami pulls the opponent in regardless of distance, raises her foot up, and slams it down, dealing 7% damage and knocking opponents set knockback with hitstun similar to King Dedede's down throw, but without the opportunity for a ridiculous chaingrab.
Forward Throw - Whip Flick
Mami flicks her wrist, tossing the opponent at a mildly upwards angle from where they are grabbed by her ribbon, or from point blank distance, dealing 7% damage with fairly average damage and knockback. This can be angled slightly up and down though, unlike most other throws.
Tiro Finale

This stylish Final Smash comes in two slighly different variations, depending on whether it's performed on the ground or in the air initially.

In the air, Mami waves her hand, the ribbon in the top of her blouse undoing itself and lengthening rapidly as time stops, growing into an enormous cannon, angled slightly downward. Mami grabs on, winks, and shouts, "Tiro Finale~" an unleashes a single solid yellow beam that lasts for two seconds and deals 30% damage, pushing opponents back slightly with every hit, with the final hit dealing knockback that kills around 95%.

On the ground, instead she props the gun up with two magically summoned poles at an upwards angle and fires, the blast being utterly identical except for the angle. The aerial one is usually easier to hit with, but the grounded one usually kills at lower percentages by pushing the opponent higher for the final hit.
Design Notes

A traditional playstyle summary doesn't fit Mami. It's pretty clear what she is; a character with projectile combos, weak to close range pressure, excellent mid-long range moves and a wide set of options in most scenarios. So there's no point in wasting time reiterating that, and I'll be assuming you've actually read the set first so I can go into greater detail. Her metagame is the much more interesting subject. What I want to discuss here is WHY she works the way she does, and how that makes her a more interesting character to play as and against.

To start with, let's talk about Mami's projectile game. With the exception of a few moves that have gun shot follow-ups, her methods of ranged damage are limited to her floating rifles, summoned rifles, and thrown rifles. Unlike other projectiles like Falco's lasers, Link's boomerang, or Samus's missiles, Mami has no move that lets her pull out a projectile immediately, on demand. She has to set up her rifles, be they aerial or grounded, before being able to use them. While it makes her more vulnerable to rushdown and pressure when she's unprepared, it also works to her advantage though, because once she has set her rifles up, she is able to fire off attacks very quickly. Mami can bait rolls and dodges, then fire during the end lag; fire multiple shots nearly at once at an opponent and bounce them between ranged attacks; knock an opponent off-stage, then finish them with a barrage of projectile attacks.

This fits in with her longer ranged normal attacks and grabs and throws, by letting her shape where the opponent can safely attack her, where they can't, and giving her the ability to put enemies where she wants them. The key idea is that Mami is a different kind of stage control character, one who's focus isn't on controlling the stage itself and maintaining some concept of her territory, but controlling opponent position, with her myriad throws and projectiles. Opponent position is of course something the other player has a great deal of control over too, which makes it a tug of war of both prediction and positioning, but Mami has more ways to tilt the odds in her favor than is immediately apparent.

The very threat that a well positioned floating rifle provides, an easy shot that Mami can turn into more damage with just one opportunity creates a massive portion of Mami's metagame. It's hard to visualize all the possibilities without an illustration though, so...

"Here you Go"

Thanks Mumi.

As you can see here, we have a match-up between Sayaka and Mami on Yoshi's Island. They're in a fairly neutral position, and Mami has a single floating rifle she summoned out of a short hop above her, which Sayaka is just out of range of. Sayaka of course wants to rush Mami down, and Mami wants none of that. The options that both players have in this scenario though are more interesting than first glance.

Sayaka doesn't want to get into range of Mami's rifle, so the obvious solution is to jump up on that platform there and dash in. If Mami's player is smart though, she knows this just as well, and can jump up with a neutral aerial, forward aerial, up aerial or grab aerial to try to hit Sayaka back, using the platform to stop her from being able to hit back. Sayaka's other options including moving forward and keeping a hair trigger on the shield button, or trying to roll forward past it, but both of those choices have weaknesses too. Mami can fire her rifle and then try for another attack or grab to break the shield, or aim a down tilt where they'll be forced to roll too. Sayaka can also jump up higher, past the platform, and go for a fastfalling back air or down air. Mami's position may seem strong, but once she does use her floating rifle, she's suddenly in a much weaker defensive position. While she does have several long ranged melee options, at point blank her options are intentionally limited. Therefore, playing as Mami is as much about resource management, setting up rifles and keeping those tools to set up for her powerful options and discourage aggression against her. In this scenario, Mami must also consider the possibility of trying to set up a grounded rifle or another floating rifle instead of immediately going in for an attack, so that she can maintain her advantage, but if Sayaka calls her bluff she can be countered instead.

That is what makes Mami's playstyle as much about metagame as it is about mechanics. Her success isn't just in what she's able to do, but what prediction and understanding opponent behavior allows her to do. Mami isn't just trying to force opponents into range of her attacks, but take advantage of opponents attempts to avoid them by changing strategies, continuing to set projectiles up for future use, and judging where the opponent will attempt to escape to. It uses loose, risky but effective barriers to give her a buffer zone to perform her strategies.

Mami has risk as a major theme of her design, in keeping with her sudden defeat in the series. She has limited options out of her shield, and her offstage game has opportunity for high risk and high reward. Her theme of using multiple projectiles in succession to finish off opponents fits in well with an offstage game, and her grab aerial, down aerial and up special fit in well with that. At the same time, they're all high risk moves that can potentially score a very early kill or get Mami defeated herself.

All in all, Mami aims to create a playstyle that one end fights on a razor edge, and can lay down incredible strings of attacks, combos, and projectiles with excellent set-ups, but it requires a combination of technical skill and excellent prediction to maintain, else she can land herself in a difficult position. With loose, not 'true' combos and follow-ups rather than linking attacks, Mami has to predict her opponents reactions, DI, and techs to succeed, giving both players interesting, fast decisions through the course of the match.

VS Miki Sayaka - Advantage Mami
You've already had a taste for what this battle of puella magi is like in the design notes section, but we'll get into more depth here. Both characters are very effective with thrown items and projectiles, which makes throwing weapons riskier for both players, as they are more well aware of when to catch items and how to throw them effectively. Mami also appreciates Sayaka's sword as a battering item, replacing her short ranged jab and effective but situational forward tilt with quicker long-ranged options to match Sayaka with at close quarters. Sayaka is in many ways very straightforward with her rush down approach. She has a few unique approach options, such as a with a well-timed Up Special to dive forward, but for the most part she is very vulnerable to Mami's longer ranged moves like her forward aerial especially.
Mami shines though, surprisingly when Sayaka enters her berserk mode, which makes Mami's very long range grab and moves like her Side Special extremely useful. Even with Sayaka's rush down potential, Mami can hold her out of arm's reach and plink away with projectiles to prevent her from successfully mitigating her progression towards berserk mode or escaping it. It seems that an experienced puella magi is more than capable of cooling another girl's head.
VS Akemi Homura - Advantage Homura
This is an interesting match that pits up two different characters who use set-up and projectiles as their focus, but in two very different ways. It should come as no surprise that Homura is well suited to dealing with the type of precision zoning that Mami uses. Her loose projectile strings are far less effective when floating rifles that normally discourage approaches and force openings are easily avoided through her Neural Special and Side Special. Similarly, she can stop time after being launched and move out of the way of the stream of projectiles Mami normally uses to finish opponents off, and recover safely.
Homura is already a strong enough character without those advantages, but Mami isn't without options. Homura has even fewer point blank options than she does outside of having a close range grab, and Mami has several long ranged normals she can leverage effectively. Moves like her forward aerial, down tilt and smashes give her the ability to fight Homura somewhat like a sword character, staying out of grab range and striking her with longer ranged moves. Homura can of course time stop to set up pipe bombs or side special to force a stumble, but her time control is limited, and using it to avoid attacks earlier on does make her more vulnerable to other moves later. Mami's grab and trapping moves like her Up and Side Specials or grab aerial are also a major advantage, as they let her regain control of Homua's positioning when she normally controls that using time manipulation.
Perhaps the biggest problem though that puts this match in Homura's favor is that while Mami can deal long ranged damage and pressure with her projectile game, she has a hard time being threatening enough to force an appoach when Homura is just trying to build back up time to use her time control. Homura also has a very strong projectile game herself, making Mami the one who is ultimately pressured instead as she deals with homing missiles and flying bullets. In the end, although Mami still can get attacks off on Homura with only somewhat more difficulty than other characters, she can't create the sequential openings for more projectiles, grabs, and long ranged attacks that she relies on, while Homura can prey on her weakness when she leaves an opening herself.


Smash Lord
Apr 26, 2007
Las Vegas, Nevada
Jedi Master

Mace Windu

Mace Windu is a Jedi Master and is played by Samuel L. Jackson in the movies, so you know he's gonna be a badass. Though he's more badass in non-movie material, really.

How badass is Mace Windu? About this badass. Maybe even moreso.

He is the only known Jedi to fully master the "Vaapad"(Also known as "Juyo") form of Lightsaber combat, an extremely aggressive style which channels the darkness of it's user, and accepts the fury of it's foe, and turns it against itself. Because of this, uses of Vaapad have a high tendancy to turn to the Dark Side, and even Windu is one of the darker Jedi Masters...though he himself realizes this and, by using his flaws and channeling them into goodness, remains a Light Side master until his death.

Mace Windu is so badass, he beat Darth Sidious, also known as Emperor Palpatine, in a lightsaber duel. Not even Yoda could do that. One of his sharpest abilities was a Force sensing ability known as "Shatterpoint", which allowed him to see weak points in objects both physical and not, such as events, letting him shatter even seemingly unbreakable goals and help predict future events. Combine with his mastery of the force and lightsaber combat, he was a force to be feared.

Despite Vaapad's aggressive tendancies, Mace Windu's Jedi training still endowed him with a compliment of defensive capabilities, making him a truly complete fighter. His close nature to the dark side allowed him to employ some fierce, more Dark Side-related abilities, such as Force Crush and Force Grip.

Did I mention he was also great at using the Force to augment his physical ability AND was a highly skilled diplomat? Yeah. Don't mess with this guy.


Mace is about the same size and weight as Marth, but his speed is absurdly faster, as he runs around the stage at roughly Captain Falcon's speed and with near-perfect traction. Although his weight may be low, Windu has absurd recovery, so he's better at surviving than you'd think. Especially with that speed.

Aerially, Mace Windu is great, as his first jump easily surpasses Falco, although not to an absurd degree, while his second jump is almost the same height. Despite this, he actually has a usefully short shorthop, as he ceases to augment his jumps then and simply does a little hop, meaning he is adept both at chasing people in the air and shorthopping aerials. His fall speed is floaty, so he dies quicker off the top but is good in the air, and he has impeccable control. His air speed is average. He can also wall jump for some absurd height, though he can't do anything else special. Still, his stats are amazing all around.


Neutral Special: Force Tear

Mace raises his hand up which causes a chunk of the stage to be ripped out about Ganondorf's height...but in width instead of height. He then opens his palm forward, tossing it at Mr. Game & Watch's dash speed. This animation is actually quite laggy, as it takes a moment for the ground chunk to be ripped out, so spamming it is hardly a viable option, though the very low ending lag means that Mace can follow behind it like a moving wall. The chunk is thrown so that it is vertical, by the way.

The chunk itself does decent damage, 13%, with medium-ish knockback that KOs at 200% but has knockback that, while diagonal, is very vertical in nature, which means that using it as a gimping tool is pretty hard even though the chunk is physical and thus cannot be air dodged through: you'll usually just pop them up and help them recover. Instead, it is best used to approach or to fight projectiles: although it won't stop Falco laser spam due to it's lag, it can be used at long ranges against more meaty or slow projectiles like Samus' Charge Shot and Wolf's blaster, while using it as an approach puts an opponent between a rock and a hard place, as shielding it leaves you open to...say...Windu's grab, while Windu can easily jump over the chunk and of course doing nothing means you get hit by the chunk.

The range on the chunk is quite large, roughly two Battlefield platforms in range. Also note that Windu can't really terraform with this: the Force will gather materials and replace the ground chunk over time, so it's a purely aesthetic change for the time. The best way to avoid this move is to approach when you see Mace start to use it, as it can be jumped over and it's high starting lag leaves him vulnearable. It can't be used at close range at all and against some characters even medium range might be impossible.

You're probably wondering what happens when this hits the stage and that is that it sits on it horizontally and disappears like an item, but disappearing 1.5x faster. Theoritically you could build a tower with this, though that's about it, but considering how fast it disappears, how many uses of this move it would take and how useless to his game it is that's...not a great use of time. It DOES have a use though: Using Force Tear while near an already thrown chunk will reduce the lag a great deal, as he merely picks it up and Force throws it rather than ripping out a new one. It's still not fast, but it's vastly faster. This does not reset the time it'll take it to disappear, so you can only abuse it for so long. The chunk cannot be grabbed as an item, so don't get any thoughts about that.

Side Special: Force Push

Mace Windu closes his eyes as he pulls his hand back, concentrating, before launching it forward, sending out a Force-fuelled push of air about the size of Bowser at Mace's dashing speed. This does little damage, 5%, but it'll keep dragging opponent's into it with it's wind hitbox until they DI out of it, and it's size means that you can't really effectively spot dodge or air dodge it, though rolling will get around it. This is another great approach option for Mace, one that will stay in front of him easily, and is faster than Force Tear...though it still isn't quick by any means. Ending lag is not that bad, though.

Vary this and Force Tear as the situation dictates. The reduced starting lag on this compared to Force Tear means you can use it at medium range and it is better at spacing the foe or getting them off the stage...but it also does a lot less damage, is less likely to KO and is a lot easier to dodge, though the inability to spot/air dodge it effectively is annoying. It also offers no projectile protection compared to Force Tear. In general, you want to use Force Push more when you need to be quicker, it's a good way to break up approaches really, while Force Tear is superior when you can get it off.

Down Special: Force Enhancement

Mace Windu closes his eyes and breathes deeply in concentrating, his body briefly wreathed in light blue energy, before he returns to the fight. This move pushes Mace Windu's physical augmentation to the maximum and goes full out. His dash speed increases to just below Sonic's, he gains two extra jumps equal to his second jump's height, his attacks deal 5% more damage and KO 10% earlier and his air speed increases, letting him soar through the air with even more grace. Certain moves also gain another bonus from this.

So why not have this active all the time? Well, using it exposes him to the Dark Side, just like when he uses his Vaapad style and walks the line between light and dark. In Brawl terms, this is represented with self-damage: each time you activate this move, you take 5% damage, plus 5% more for each previous time you activated it. This does not get erased over stocks: If you used it once on your first stock, it takes 10% to activate it on your second stock. Considering the buff lasts 5 seconds, this is going to add up quickly if you just spam it. So use it strategically: will you go for an early advantage, pushing to crush the foe from the start and never let up, or perhaps not use it until you or your opponent's last stock and bury them in an onslaught? Or perhaps you'd rather use it consistantly and strategically over multiple stocks?

You can even stack multiple Force Enhancements on yourself at once by using this move repeatedly, taking damage all the while. Stacking them won't increase your speed more, but it will increase the damage and knockback abilities, which gives him absurd damage and KO power to go with his already absurd speed and aerial abilities. Stacking these does come with a downside, however: Every time you stack this move, you debuff yourself in return, reducing your speed to Marth's and taking 5% more damage and being KO'd 10% faster for each time you stacked, for 5 seconds. So while stacking Force Enhancement can lead to a swift death to the foe, it can also lead to your own self destruction, and really harm you later in the match as using more Force Enhancements then will deal some serious self-damage. The situation, opponent and user preference dictate it's use.

Up Special: Force Jump

Mace braces himself before leaping high into the sky, going as high as King DeDeDe's Up Special with a similiar arc. Unlike D3's, though, this move ends at the height of the arc, with full control being ganed of Windu without falling into helpess...though only one USpec can be used per trip into the air and, unlike D3, he never gains any resistance to knockback and this move's hitbox is only at the very start, making it vastly more gimpable. On the other hand, Windu can also grab the ledge without needing to cancel his recovery, and his hitbox at the start is pretty strong, dealing 10% damage and good set knockback. The knockback isn't great for gimping though, as it is vertical.

So as far as recoveries go, it's pretty good. It's start-up is fairly quick, so you can also use it to leap into the air and then go after the foe who is under you from this move's set knockback. Very nifty.

Grab Game

Grab: Force Grip

Windu holds out his hand and balls it into a fist, grabbing the nearest enemy player. There is no maximum range on this move, so don't worry about that, although range DOES affect grab difficulty: A foe is grabbed at normal difficulty when within a Battlefield platform, but only a third of that when beyond, and they escape almost immediately if they are more than three Battlefield platforms away. Grabbing the foe automatically refreshes their jump and recovery, so it's not like you can really grab gimp them. In addition, Mace Windu will take some ending lag if the foe escapes the grab, preventing cheap infinite regrabs pretty easily. Still, this grab is a wonderful tool.

Pummel: Force Speed

Mace Windu charges at the grabbed foe at 2x Sonic's dash speed, flinching any foes who get in his way for 1% damage and leaping to aerial foes grabbed by this, hitting them with a swift lightsaber hit that deals 5% damage, no knockback and brings the foe out of the grab. While this sounds lame, it ends with Mace Windu having a frame neutral situation right in the foe's face, which means this basically allowed you to approach the foe, deal some damage and are now in an excellent position to strike the foe...though on the flipside, the foe is in an excellent position to strike you. Like all of Mace Windu's throws, foes can escape this move while it is executed. If they do escape, Windu just instantly brings himself to a stop and you regain control of him, the situation staying frame neutral.

Back Throw: Force Pull

Mace Windu beckons the foe towards him with a hand gesture, causing them to take 8% damage and begin to fly towards Windu. Windu regains control during this and is free to hit the foe, although this will automatically break them out of the grab if he hits, while the foe is free to escape. Windu still takes that slight lag if the foe escapes during this move, so he would prefer to hit them out of it, although it is also more than fine to use Force Tear and then use this to have them get blown right into it. In many ways, this move is the opposite of the pummel, bringing the foe to you and opening up a different avenue of attack compared to it.

And no, he can't grab the foe during this move. No infinites for you there.

Down Throw: Force Crush

Mace Windu holds out his other hand and balls it into a fist as well, summoning the power of the Force to utterly crush the foe's body with immeasurable weight. This deavstating move deals 16% in one swift blow, making it Mace Windu's most damaging single throw. As for knockback, that depends on if the foe is on the ground or in the air. In the air, they simply regain control of themselves, so this is just a nice damage racker.

On the ground though, foes are released into prone. Mace doesn't prone abuse per se, but he does have ways to take advantage of prone, such as using the time to pressure the foe with Force Tear or to get in some Force Enhancement, in addition to general prone prediction. Considering this does a devastating 21% if you have Force Enhancement on, the prone on top of it can make it extremely terrifying.

Forward Throw: Saber Throw

Windu throws his lightsaber at the foe which travels at his own dash speed. Any foe struck by this takes 11% damage and some decent knockback that KOs at 220%, which includes any foe hit on the way to whoever you grabbed. The grabbed foe takes the same damage when struck, the lightsaber then returning to Windu and once again damaging anyone it hits on the way. This does good but not great damage to anyone it strikes while also dealing knockback, but is most useful in crowds, as you can easily create chaos in the middle of a brawl by using this and sending the lightsaber inside. And sincce the lightsaber will keep going even if the foe breaks out of the grab, it is the most useful if you feel the foe is going to escape.

If the lightsaber misses Mace on the return trip, he'll use the Force to bring it to his hand, so don't worry about your lightsaber boomeranging off the blast zone or anything.

Up Throw: Impale

Mace throws his lightsaber at the foe, this time at 1.5x his own dash speed, but unlike the spinning saber of Saber Throw he throws it straight. Upon contact with a foe it runs them right through, impaling itself in them for 10% damage and launching them up a little. Mace can press A when it hits to call the saber back right now, but not doing so will cause the lightsaber to stay impaled in the foe. Foes who have the lightsaber impaled in them take 3% damage per second, but Windu loses all access to any Lightsaber attacks: They are instead replaced with simple low range force pushes that do no damage and set 3/4ths of a Battlefield platform knockback. Mace can call back his Lightsaber at any time with the force by pressing shield + Special, double tabbing a lightsaber input or using his pummel while the foe is grabbed (which causes him to call it to him while he does his pummel). Aside from that, he could keep it in the foe the whole stock if he wants: it'll automatically return to him if the foe dies, though.

For the Jedi who prefers a more ranged approach, this move should be your first choice, as it deals a good deal of passive damage and does not affect your force moves. However, it does leave you quite vulnearable at close range, as a good deal of your quick range attacks are lightsaber moves or Smashes which can be interrupted fairly easily, and your aerial game is gimped. So the choice of if to impale or not is a serious one. Don't forget that if you want to launch the foe vertically, you can just hit A to have the saber return to you and use this as a normal throw.

Playstyle: Part I

"Vaapad is as aggressive and powerful as its namesake, but its power comes at great risk: immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning. Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side…This was Vaapad's ultimate test."​

The first two sections of Mace Windu, Specials and Grabs, shows a character with two paths to take: to approach or to be defensive. Moves such as Force Tear serve dual purposes, as a projectile-blocking projectile itself for approaching or an awesome tool to hit from afar, while Force Push serves as a more campy option. His Force Enhancement might work better with a more aggressive tendancy, but it is also great for camping with things like the speed boost. At the same time, Force Tear is slow, Force Push deals no damage and Force Enhancement is merely a buff, so these are merely tools.

Your throws are similiar in this regard, as Mace can use either his Pummel to approach or Back Throw to force an approach into his swift and deadly close ranged game or transition into a truly deadly waiting game by using his Up Throw or helpfully add to everything with a Forward Throw. Down Throw serves as a glue from the grab game for both playstyles, similiar to Force Enhancement, as the prone is useful both for close ranged and far ranged combat while being an excellent damage racker. By combining the grab with your Specials, Windu can transition well in many ways.


Jab: Assured Strike

Mace does a quick and simple slash with his lightsaber, dealing 4% damage and low knockback. Using this move causes Windu to step forward and move a bit, while holding down A lets you repeat this jab with alternating hands, advancing all the while. Considering it's quickness, trading off a lot of power for a much higher chance of hitting due to this, it makes an excellent approach option, especially when you consider this move emulates one of the most iconic abilities of the lightsaber: hit a projectile with it and you'll reflect it back at the foe. While Force Tear's chunk is more useful against slower projectiles and to approach, this reflection is much more useful against faster projectiles and to defeat camping. Combined, they make an excellent 1-2 punch. And even aside from that, this combos into itself two or three times at low %s and is a good jab. So yeah.

Forward Tilt: Tempered Aggression

Mace Windu holds up his lightsaber for a block, which will negate any damage and knockback he takes from an attack in front of him, like a one-way shield. Doesn't protect his top or his back though and it takes a bit to come back down, though it comes out quick. Hitting A will cause him to, similiar to Link's F-Smash, continue the attack, going from this block to a swift horizontal slice that deals 12% damage and knockback that KOs at 190%. However, this is not the only slice you can do: Pressing Down A will instead cause you to use your down tilt, while pressing Up A will use your up tilt. So you can use the guard to lead into, essentially, all three of your tilts.

This is probably Mace's most useful close range move, as it functions as both defense and offense, giving you a psuedo-counter that allows you to block and strike back combinned with a fine attack that has range and low lag, making it a bread and bunner staple of his offense along with his jab. As an aggressive attack or a tempered defense, the Forward Tilt is good.

Down Tilt: Force Strike

Mace leaps up about half of his normal jump height, striking an open palm down and causing the Force to strike the ground where he was, making it crack as an animation (though the crack quickly dissipates). Being smashed by this Force strike will deal a solid 12% damage with some good knockback that KOs at 180% or so. Combined with fairly quick starting lag and the leap, this is an effective way to move and strike, transition into your aerial game or to put proned foes into a bad spot.

Why does it put proned foes into a bad spot? Well, when the Force strikes the ground, it'll cause a shockwave to ripple across the ground, going the entire length of whatever part of the stage it is used on, one going left and one going right. The shockwaves deal only 5% damage, though considering that goes up to 10% under Force Enchantment that is pretty good, but will also prone foes and due to the range is excellent to force a proned foe to either deal with it or perhaps, say, roll closer to you than away to get away from it, helping you control where the foe goes or tech chase them into another prone via shockwaves.

This is also a great move to use out of your Forward TIlt guard, as you can guard a strike and even if they are not hit by the fairly large Force hitbox they'll be tripped up. However, using it this way offers less follow-up options compared to your F-Tilt, due to the F-Tilt's lower knockback, this move's higher ending lag (which is actually somewhat laggier than average) and such. Still, Force Strike is an excellent option for Mace Windu to use at close range.

Up Tilt: Power Strike

Windu raises his lightsaber high before bringing it down with a vicious, powerful strike. This movement isn't laggy, but it isn't quick either, making it quite average in that regard. What is not average is it's damage potential, 15%, though it KOs slowly, 175%. Ending lag is pretty minor. So this move is a staple of Mace Windu's close range game, he'll love to throw it in after Jabs, F-Tilt guards or even F-Tilt strikes, due to it's high damage potential, while still leaving the foe close for other moves...such as, say, Up Tilt -> Down Tilt. The knockback is diagonal, though, so it is not as effective of an aerial launcher as you would think.

As mentioned, you can use this after Forward Tilt guards, and while it is your laggiest option it is also the strongest from a pure power standpoint. Do note that, depending on the situation and opponent's DI, you can sometimes chain this from a Jab, which is excellent for damage. Make sure to watch the DI of the foe so you can seize these chances when they come!

Dashing Attack: Spark Saber

Mace continues to dash forward as his lightsaber drags it's tip against the ground, creating sparks along the way. When you release A, he swings it forward, dealing 11% damage and low knockback to anybody hit by it in a shower of sparks. This is good reach on an attack that isn't slow to start up and does good damage, so that's good, but the sparks extend the range even further, a little under half of a Battlefield, which deal about 3 hits of 1% with some nice hitstun. By hitting with this, you can pretty much always follow up with a 100% Jab, but it also offers great options for trying to get in a jab or any of your tilts. Forward Tilt is especially excellent for this, blocking a predicted counterattack and striking when you do so.


Forward Smash: Shatterpoint

Mace Windu brings one of his hands forward in a palm strike, like in the image, striking the opponent. Their entire body seems to "shatter" for a moment like glass, before returning to normal as they take the knockback. This deals 18%-21% damage and knockback that KOs at 170%-150%. Starting lag is fairly quick, ending lag is a bit above average. This sounds really simple, but Shatterpoint is much more than that. Shatterpoint is the ability to see the cracks in any defense and exploit them with a single, striking application of Force.

And that is exactly what Shatterpoint does. It deals massive damage to shields, not a OHKO to them but still quite massive, and while it can be spot-dodged/rolled/air dodged it absolutely murders other forms of defense. Counters don't work against it. Damage reduction is ignored. Barriers are broken. Even Mace Windu's Forward Tilt guard is helpless against it. While anyone can stop it by a dodge, it is an excellent choice to throw out either as a dedicated defense-killer, as part of an on-going effort to destroy shields, as just a normal smash with a great ability or, my favorite, throwing it out while approaching behind a ground chunk. A wide range of possibilities is before you with this move.

Down Smash: Force Wave

Windu closes his eyes and grasps both of his hands, turning his lightsaber off in deep concentration that gives this move some laggy, though not impossibly so but still bad, startup lag. It's well worth the wait, however, as he releases a massive wave of the Force all around him, varying from half a Smart Bomb radius at no charge to a full Smart Bomb radius at full charge, which absolutely explodes against foes. It only deals 9%-12% damage, pretty weak for a Smash, but it has great KO power: 90%-80%. This move has somewhat low ending lag as Mace re-ignites his saber for it, which also means that while hard to hit with, whiffing with it isn't insanely easy to punish.

One way to help avoid getting punished is to have a ground chunk or two from Force Tear out when you use this move: Any chunk caught in this move is thrown a Battlefield platform in whatever direction it is (IE a chunk to his right is thrown to the right), with half the speed and power of his Force Tear. If you have some of these out, it can become very hard to dodge or hit Mace Windu in his ending lag.

Mace doesn't really have a lot of KO options, but when he does, he goes all out, like with this move. While Shatterpoint is vastly easier to hit with, this can blow foes away for, at the least, an edgeguarding situation quite early. Choose wisely when to use this move and it shall obliterate your enemy's stocks.

Up Smash: Force Explosion

Mace brings his arms to his chest while turning off his lightsaber, concentrating intensely, the very air around him distorting. During the charging time and this start-up, foes are drawn to him from up to 1.5 Battlefield platforms away on each side, at varying strengths: At 1.5 BFPs away, it's a weak pull at Ganondorf's dash speed. At 1 Battlefield Platform, it increased to Falco's dash speed. And within half of a Battlefield platform, the pull is almost inescapable: Captain Falcon's dash speed. Everything is drawn in that can be, including items, ground chunks, minions and, of course, players.

Upon the actual use of this move, Mace throws his arms out and causes a great Force explosion around him, hitting everyone within half of a Battlefield to each side of him and a fair deal above. This does a lot more damage than Force Wave, 19%-22%, but it has greatly reduced KO power, KOing at 150%-125% of straight upwards knockback. However, that's not all! Things thrown up along with the foe can damage too: items are treated as if smash thrown, while ground chunks will deal the same amount of damage as if thrown by your Neutral Special and can be very deadly with this move due to them also having vertical knockback. In addition, they'll still damage until they hit the ground as per usual, which means they can be dangerous even if you whiff. It's also likely to clear out minions awesomely.

The downside? It's slow. Slow start-up, slow ending lag, making it both very punishable and easy to interrupt. But when you get it off, hoo boy, there's a good chance you're gettin' a real hit in. Use it when you want, but especially if you've got a good deal of chunks around!

Playstyle: Part II

"I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light."​

The Standards and Smashes show off the nature of Mace Windu's game, as his standards gracefully flow from one another like a river, showing off lightsaber combat distilled to it's essence and core. The key moves here are the Jab and Forward Tilt, as the jab provides a swift striking attack, while the Forward Tilt's guard-then-strike ability allows you to segue from that into any of your tilts, such as your powerful Up Tilt or extremely useful Down Tilt. The Down Tilt in particular works great into Windu's place style, as he can prone the foe while retreating, prone the foe offensively and take advantage of your proning Down Throw. Combined with your excellent Dashing Attack, an excellent move for spacing and approaching and even just plain striking, Mace Windu's disjointed hitboxes are unparalelled in close ranged combat.

His smashes, on the other hand, excellent in terms of sheer unadultered strength, as Windu shows off his Force abilities to decimate foes. Shatterpoint combines excellently with Force Tear, because the best way to dodge a Force Tear is usually shielding, and Shatterpoint will break right through it...and if the foe dares to defend against Windu's saber strikes, he'll strike them down with this. And Force Wave + Force Explosion provide powerful KO moves and damage, not to mention sending your ground chunks every which way, letting you explode out in great and powerful disjointed hitboxes at a range or destroy foes in the face when they kneel to your powerful onslaughts. Just remember their severe lag.


Neutral Aerial: Saber Shield

Mace swings his Lightsaber lightning quick around his entire body, covering a good area all around him with very quick start-up lag and low ending lag, though the move only deals 8% damage and it's knockback is weak...but combined with low landing lag and the fact that opponent's are usually hit at a sort of shallow angle, you can shorthop this as an excellent approach or use it as an excellent transition to your ground game. Combined with it's excellent body coverage for GTFOness, this is a sweet all around move. Did I mention it reflects projectiles like your Jab, so that you can reflect them in the air too? Yeah, don't even think you can aerial laser Mace Windu, Falco.

Down Aerial: Reckless Plummet

Mace Windu holds up his arm before slamming it down and plummeting, a stall than fall Down Aerial. He'll slash anyone he meets on his plummet and won't stop until he either hits solid ground, a blast zone or hits a foe. The fun thing about this move, though, is that when he holds up his arm and brings it down, he's Force Pushing right on top of him straight down: any foe about 3/4ths of a Ganondorf above him is sent plummeting right into the path of Windu's blade. This is excellent technique, especially since the attack is a 12% damage dealing, fairly strong spike, so if you can catch a foe with this you can stop yourself on them off stage and probably kill them...though miss and die yourself, of course. You can also use it as a finisher to aerial battles to bring it back to the ground or as a normal stall than fall. It's a fairly good move due to low starting lag as well, though the ending lag is high, as expected of stall-than-falls. Pretty nice.

Up Aerial: Rising Slash

Mace slashes into the air, rising a bit as he does so, doing a weak 7% damage with similiarly weak's excellent for juggling and, thanks to it's low ending lag, can be followed up with many aerials. One of the most fun combinations is to tap a foe with an up aerial while rising under them and chain it into a Down Aerial to bring them to the ground while dealing some serious damage. Note that after the first use, Mace will not rise when this attack is used, preventing infinite recovery or anything silly. Average start-up.

Forward Aerial: Slash Strike

Mace does a quick slash in front of him, an animation remarkably similiar to Marth's Forward Aerial. This move has a sweetspot on the blade which is closer to Windu, dealing a solid 12% and knockback that KOs at 210%. But the unsweetspotted hitbox is very interested in itself: 6% damage and weak knockback that, because this move has such low ending lag, can actually chain into itself at lower damage percents into a true combo, or open up the door for use of, say, Forward Aerial -> Up Aerial -> Down Aerial as a finisher or damage dealer...though that is not a true combo. The FAir will combo into itself until about 25% on light characters and 40% on heavier ones. You might even chain it into a sweetspotted FAir! Not too fancy, but all very useful.

Back Aerial: Stab Saber

Mace Windu stabs behind him with his lightsaber in a quick strike, which deals a solid 13% damage but...kinda meh knockback really, KOing at 220%, with some hefty ending lag to boot. Probably Mace's worst aerial, making his back quite vulnearable, but it does deal a lot of damage if you hit with it.

Final Smash

Final Smash: Force Finale

Mace waves his hand in front of him, scooping up anyone within a Battlefield platform in front of him into this attack, as he wildly uses the force to swing and smash them into the ground, any walls and so on, doing this 4 times and dealing 10% damage each time. Enemies caught this way are hitboxes the whole time and will hit anyone in their way for 8% damage and weak upwards knockback, making this move deadly in a FFA or 2v2. After smashing the enemies four times, he'll bring them towards him, slashing his saber as they close in on him with some flash for 20% damage and knockback that KOs at 90%. Windu is invincible during this FInal Smash.

Very damaging.

Playstyle: Part III

"Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind, a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side."​

Mace's Aerials tie up his playstyle nicely, by adding in elements of swift hitting and a small bit of comboing to the mix, allowing Windu to transition smoothly from the ground to the air in an instant. Shorthopping Neutral Aerials as an approach is yet another amazing approach for him, but also serves as a good aerial GTFO, while moves like FAir and UAir serve to chase the foe and never give them a chance to breathe, while Down Aerial brings foes back down to start again. Most excellent, really.

So, what can we gather as a while from Mace Windu? We can gather that he is a great aggressive character, wildly slashing through foes and utilizing a myriad of focused options to bring them down, but that he also has defensive options which allow him to be calm and collected, to switch from the penumbra of dark side aggression to the protection of light side passiveness. That options such as Force Enhancement offer many a choice, while moves like Force Tear remind you that Windu often wants to be aggressive to feed into itself or even to fuel defense. But whether it is striking the foe relentlessly or waiting for openings, Mace is an expert at it.

Smash Daddy

Smash Master
Apr 29, 2007
K Rool Avenue
Thanks, Mario_and_Sonic_Guy. Un-sticky the last thread at any time! We'd prefer if you left it open, as has been tradition since MYM11. That way we can edit our old movesets in case we need to update corrupted image files or change aspects of them that need to be changed for whatever reason far later than posting date.


Smash Lord
Apr 26, 2007
Las Vegas, Nevada

"I'm not a Lark!"

SwallowMan.EXE is an optional boss NetNavi from MegaMan Battle Network 5, known as LarkMan.EXE in English despite not looking like a Lark. So we'll be calling him SwallowMan.EXE this time around! He doesn't have much to be told in ways of personality, his signature move is the Swallow Cutter(Or at least since it is Lark Cutter in English, I presume it is Swallow Cutter in the original: Wikis are so unuseful here!), which fires off a bird which comes back around to hit the foe if they move.


SwallowMan.EXE is decently tall and stands about as tall as Captain Falcon with a similiar build. Unfortunately, he doesn't share the similiar weight: He only weights about as much as Diddy Kong due to the lighter metals used. But back to the good side, he has good dashing speed, majestically flying about the battlefield at around the same speed Sheik does. Traction is pretty much perfect due to the fact that SwallowMan actually "floats" off the ground a little and flies forward when he dashes: He can't dodge anything from this float, though.

His aerial prowess is appropriately powerful: He has excellent air speed, great control in the air and is generally floaty, letting him outpace and outmaneuver the foe while soaring in the sky. He also has a particularly long air dodge. He has three extra mid-air jumps of moderate length, in addition to a Falco-esque sized first jump and a sizable second jump.

Obviously, he can glide: It goes about as fast as his dash. He can also wall jump, but not wall cling, and cannot float or Crawl. Dem the breaks.


Neutral Special: Swallow Cutter

SwallowMan.EXE juts an arm forward and shoots out...a bird? Yes, a mechanical swallow! This whole bit takes only a moment to do, but is still slower than, say, Fox/Falco's blasters. The bird moves at 1.5x the speed of Fox's laser, though, making it a blazing fast projectile. It goes a Battlefield platform in length before...stopping? Yes, the swallow stops in place after it has been shot. The projectile itself does a nice 12% damage, though the knockback is not as hot, as it doesn't KO until like 160%. Ending lag for this move is short: The bird should stop at it's destination at the same time the ending lag stops.

So, what happens when the birdie stops? It'll stay there for 3 seconds, being indestructable and obstructing projectiles, though melee attacks are pretty much unaffected. After the 3 seconds are up, it will take as straight a path as possible to wherever SwallowMan is at the time. I'll cite an example. You are one Battlefield platform to the left of the middle of Final Destination and use Swallow Cutter, shooting it one Battlefield platform to the right. You then move one Battlefield platform to the right of the bird during the 3 seconds. The bird will therefor move in a straight line one Battlefield platform to the right, where you are. Simple, yes? The bird keeps going until it touches you or goes off screen. It's damage and other attributes are the same as when it's first shot out. You can only have one bird out at a time, so be careful with it.

But rest assured, this versatile projectile will be the key of many games...

Down Special: Flight of the Counter

SwallowMan.EXE puts his arm up in a counter motion. Did you get that this is a counter yet? It's got a quick startup and good length for the counter, but it's end lag is poor, so it's risky to throw out willy-nilly. The counter, by the way, is important, as it consists of SwallowMan blocking the strike with his arm and doing a rising, flipping kick into the air. The length of two Falco first jumps into the air, actually: It's a great way to launch the foe into the air with you! It always deals 14% damage, no matter what, but does no knockback, instead leaving the foe in front of SwallowMan in a frame neutral situation, bringing the foe into the air where SwallowMan can do some domination.

And, of course, it lets you position the foe right and close for your birdie. You can take "frame neutral" to something much worse by timing it with the bird right.

Up Special: Free as a Robotic Bird

In the most unsurprising recovery of all time, SwallowMan.EXE flaps his mechanical wings and takes to the skies, flying up about a Ganondorf before entering free flight for 3 seconds. Just move in a direction and you go that way, at about 3/4th of your Dash speed, meaning SwallowMan is very hard to take down. Using any move will take him out of free flight, but he can use it again as long as he has time left on it. It recharges like R.O.B.'s Up Special, but at a ratio of recharging one second for every two on the ground.

This should have obvious uses. Recovery, aerial pursuit, that sort of thing. But it's too simple to go on and on about it much.

Side Special: Whirlwind Lord

SwallowMan.EXE flaps his wings three times, building up wind in front of him. This somewhat high starting lag produces no hitbox, but it does produce a small whirlwind in front of SwallowMan. This Ganondorf-tall, Bowser-wide whirlwind has a very simple effect: It blows anyone who gets within it's radius outside of it at a quick pace, though it deals no damage and just wind-style effects. The wind effect is quite strong though: Nobody slower than Sonic will be able to not be pushed back and even he will have issues with actually moving forward. Because of this, it basically makes an area impossible to enter, though the wind does not prevent you from using attacks, so you can actually, say, jump into it and use an aerial to move while striking. This whirlwind lasts for 7 seconds and you may only have two out.

This move has another use as well, as it will keep the bird from passing through it. In other words, since the bird will keep trying to go the same direction, you can delay when the bird will attack and keep it out as an active hitbox. Of course, you won't be able to fire another bird while it's delayed like this, but it can still be a very effective tool, especially if you keep knocking the foe into the whirlwind to be bird punished. Alternatively, angle-depending, it can be used to cut off escape routes and further make it impossible not to be hit by a pincer assault between you and the bird. Play around with it and see what works best for you.


Jab: Whirlwind Kick

SwallowMan kicks forward once. Then, if you hold/tap down A, he kicks with the other foot. This is your usual repeating jab, so it'll keep going as long as you hold it down. Each hit deals 4% damage and practically no knockback, so it can be an effective small time damage racker, but like all repeating jabs suffers from Smash DI. It's a basic jab. And that's all there is to say on the matter.

Forward Tilt: Claw Crush

SwallowMan.EXE kicks one of his legs forward, talons outstretched. This is a pretty quick action to come out, making it a go-to tilt for damage, and can be angled like many Forward Tilts. It deals a nice 13% damage, but isn't the best knockback dealer of a tilt, only KOing at around 180%. It's ending lag is a tad above the grain though, so it has a minor element of risk to throwing it out.

It does have another bonus to it, though: Freeze frames, AKA those things on Wolf's F-Tilt! That means when this move connects, you and the foe "freeze up" so to speak, before the move hits and everything returns to normal: SwallowMan crushes with his talons to signify the move has finished. While this is usually just a visual effect, it can affect stuff with delays on using it while your bird is out with timing, so that when the freeze frames stop or are just about to, the bird comes rushing in to strike them! This little combo creates excellent damage racking, even if it isn't as great at KOing, while remaining a good move to throw out without the bird.

Down Tilt: Talon Sweep

From his crouching position, SwallowMan performs a nice, quick sweep with a leg. This has low starting and ending lag, making it the safest of SwallowMan's tilts to throw out, but it is ultimately not that high powered, dealing 10% damage, but does deal nice knockback, KOing at 140% or so and thus making it his best tilt killer. This move has no special properties, but fills a vital role due to it's vertical knockback as a move to get the foe into the air, in addition to being a useful and quick move to throw out without worrying about the repeating of the jab. Simple yet effective, I say.

Up Tilt: Wing It

SwallowMan.EXE puts his wing up above himself defensively. This move actually does do something defensive, too: Any attack which hit this defensive wing just pings off, like a projectile off of Link's shield when he's idle. It's angle means it only stops aerial assaults, however. After this starting lag which acts like a move, he swipes the wing above him, dealing 12% knockback and upwards knockback with 165% KO knockback. This allows it to function not only as a normal move, albeit one that pretty much only hits foes above you, but as a sort-of psuedo-counter alongside your Down Special. You can also use it to stop Stall-Than-Falls from your juggles or just normal juggling. Yep.

Dash Attack: Swallow Wing

SwallowMan.EXE rushes forward, wing in front of him. Unlike his U-Tilt, this wing isn't positioned defensively and has no stopping power, but instead offensively, as the foe will be trapped in repeating hits of 1% until he stops his 1 and a half Battlefield long charge, which he does at twice the speed of his dash. At the end of this he sweeps forward with his wing, an impressively reaching attack which deals 14% damage and knockback that KOs at 130%. Overall, if you catch the opponent from the very start to the very finish, it can do up to 19% damage. End lag is bad, though: It essentially negates the speed boost from moving 2x as fast. This can, however, be used to extend your bird a little(By temporarily outrunning it) or to drag the foe along with you, then connect with the bird on your path, preferrablt when you strike them away from you. The bird can also be used to simply cover for it's ending lag. While very simple interactivity, it's still possibly very damaging. And that is that.


Forward Smash: Wing Wind Blast

SwallowMan rears his wings back, before slashing them forward and releasing a powerful gust of wind. This move doesn't do any damage, but it produces an extremely powerful wind hitbox that goes about as large as a fully charged FLUDD shot, but with much more pushing power. This will push characters, items and anything physical to the end of the wind hitbox, which also allows you to reposition your bird by blowing it away, creating excellent space. The ending lag on this move isn't too bad, nor is the starting lag, though still to Smash Attack levels. This still makes it nice and easy to use at will to space yourself or your bird, though. Charging increases the power of the wind: At full charge, anything caught in it will continue flying forward from the wind for about a Battlefield platform past the hitbox itself, being stronger the closer you are to SwallowMan and weaker the further away you are.

This also makes a good edgeguarding tool. While it is unfortunately quite weak to the air dodge, a nice way to avoid the wind hitbox or weaken it once you get caught in it, it pushes the foe quite far if they get caught in it and can really hurt people who use a recovery which charges, like Fire Fox, Aether or Quick Draw. It's a nice move to add to SwallowMan's arsenal.

Up Smash: Tornado Riser

SwallowMan.EXe spings into the air before rising in a manner not dissimiliar to Drill Rush, striking for a strong 18%-22% damage and knockback that KOs at 135%-110%. The key thing is that this creates quite a large wind hitbox: one Battlefield platform to each side, with it being lower to the ground the further out from SwallowMan it gets. If you're really close to SwallowMan, you'll be brought right up with him and probably get hit by the hitbox: If you're far away, though, you'll probably just get slightly popped up and totally avoid it. You can also avoid it by simply hitting him before he starts, as this move has a bit of a high starting lag, although it's ending lag is quite low. SwallowMan ends in the air when this move is over.

This move has a few usages: KO move, obviously, but it can also set foes up for your air game due to the wind effect that'll bring people up with you if it misses + low ending lag and can set them up to be hit by a bird that is returning by putting them in it's path. All very nice.

Down Smash: Hurriforce

SwallowMan gives a mighty flap of his wings against the ground, causing a gale to shoot out to both sides of him for a bit over a Battlefield platform. This gale does little damage, 8%-12%, but it does have very good KO power, about 115%-90% I'd reckon, which makes it your best killing move by a fair deal, although it isn't vert good for smacking the foe around with your bird. If you fully charge it, the range increases to 3/4th of a Battlefield platform! Lag is about the opposite of your Up Smash: Starting lag is managable, but with great and punishable ending lag.

Grab Game

Grab: It's A Grab

What can I say? He does a grabbing motion and grabs the foe. Quick, somewhat short range, little ending lag.

Pummel: Pummel

SwallowMan punches the foe's face in the face, a pretty quick pummel that does 2% each time. It's a freaking pummel, guys.

Up Throw: Carry

SwallowMan grabs on to the foe before you gain control of him, now in your Up Special free flight state. You may fly around to your hearts content until your opponent breaks away at normal Grab Difficulty you you hit A to lightly toss them up for 8% damage. Flying around will drain your Up Special's meter, so be wary about just trying to dump the foe down and off the stage, or you'll probably die as well! You also automatically exit your Up Special state when this move ends, though you may use it again that trip.

The foe takes 4% damage if they break out. If you have no time on your Up Special, SwallowMan just uppercuts the foe for 8% damage and weak upwards knockback.

Forward Throw: Delay Kick

SwallowMan.EXE kicks the foe in the gut, cutting into them for 10% damage and knockback that KOs at 200%. This move takes a moment for it to execute while he holds the foe in front of him, which means it's excellent to hold the foe out and combo into a returning bird, especially considering it is your best KO throw. Aside from that, there is not much too it.

Down Throw: Swallow Stomp

SwallowMan throws the foe to the ground and stomps on them for 4% damage, trapping them under his foot at 1.5x Grab Difficulty. During this time, he may launch any attacks in his arsenal, but he may not move. He can turn around, though. The foe is entirely invincible during this...but of course, if you're in a 2v2 or FFA, this gives you plenty of ways to strike at foes while keeping one grinded under your heel, or give you time to set up, say, your bird while the foe struggles. Some nice possibilities, anyhow.

When the foe breaks out of the grab difficulty, SwallowMan kicks them away for 7% damage and some weak knockback.

Back Throw: Backflip Kick

SwallowMan.EXE grabs the foe with one of his talons before performing a sweet backflip, kicking them behind him for 12% damage and knockback that KOs at 220%. Just like with the Forward Throw, the opponent lingers in place a moment before being thrown, making it excellent for setting up the birdie...and the way it hits the foe behind him is also great for hitting them with a bird behind you, assuring you never have to worry about that! It is also your best damaging throw, though it sacrifices KO power for it. Yep.


Neutral Aerial: Wind Wrap

SwallowMan spins rapidly in place, generating a small but powerful wind effect around him that blows foes away. Foes directly hit by his body take 9% damage and some nice knockback, while merely getting hit by the wind blows you away strongly. Not a lot of lag on this and it deals nice if a bit low damage, so it's a nice bread-and-butter attacking aerial option with added GTFO potential.

Down Aerial: Air Raid

SwallowMan gives a mighty flap of his wings, causing a crescent-shaped projectile of wind to rush down one and a half Ganondorf's at the speed of Luigi's dash. This projectile is a pretty powerful tool for SwallowMan, as not only does it deal 13% damage, but it is also a nice ranged spike...although the spike is not all that powerful, it does give him a nice way to force foes down or KO them off stage, even if the move is slightly laggy on both ends. SwallowMan does stall for a second before using this move, but the end lag means he still loses a decent amount of height.

Up Aerial: Flying Swallow

SwallowMan does a swift straight kick right up, dealing 7% and lightly smacking the foe up. With low lag on both end, this is a great juggler, but that is about it. Still, you've got amazing aerial capabilites, use them!

Forward Aerial: Swift Kick

SwallowMan gives a swift kick with his sharp talons, dealing 14% knockback that KOs at 155% with decent range, though the ending lag is subpar. There is not much else to say besides that, as it is a pretty basic Forward Aerial.

Back Aerial: Retreating Kick

SwallowMan flaps his wings, causing him to fly backwards, while delivering a kick with his talons, allowing you to retreat and attack with this, dealing a cool 11% damage and knockback that KOs at 190%. If your back is to the stage, you can use this to recover, though this move has no hitbox from the back. Starting lag is okay, ending lag is a bit higher than usual.

Final Smash: Hurricane Gale

SwallowMan blusters his wings with a mighty force and with a single flap, releases a two Battlefield platform spanning blast of wind that deals 20% damage and set knockback of 3 Battlefield platforms. When to use this move is key: It is deadly near edges but much more survivable near the middle.





Smash Lord
Apr 26, 2007
Las Vegas, Nevada
With the first comment of mine for MYM14, my rankings are up. As always, you can click the Aradia in my signature to go to them. I will also be working on getting up Weighted Rankings and a Set + Comment Corner up soon.

Lovely Mamiries

I'd been interested in this set since you described to me what it was like, so seeing Mami up on the first day was greatly pleasing. Fortunately, I do not feel the set dissapointed.

The specials are fairly exquisite, giving her interesting options with her one-shot rifles and creating a sort of "field of blades" type playstyle I always loved (both in MYM and, more importantly, watching!). One thing I do wish, though, is that Down Special let you produce three rifles and not two: Not only would this be consistant with the Neutral Special, which lets you summon three, but I feel three is an excellent number both for balance and for optimal fun use. Still, the move is pretty good. Side Special is also okay, though I imagine some will be displeased that the grab difficulty basically feels like stun, even if it is small and sets her up well. I'm fine with it, though. I also remembered it is units and not blocks, so 3 SBUs is probably fine.

The standards, while basic, are all quite nice and flow well into her general playstyle, which helps differentiate her. The dash attack is probably my favorite move here. The Smashes are great, though, mostly D-Smash and F-Smash: I love Down Smash and it's usage in her playstyle, plus how it works with the rifles, giving her one of my favorite things in the playstyle as it feels like she oh-so elegantly flows from attack to attack, shot to shot, strike to strike, a distillation of grace if you will. Forward Smash is cool, with a good way of messing with shielding and dodging, doing well with her general gameplan and overall being excellent execution of something simple into something great. Up Smash is the only one where it feels like it falters any: I'm not entirely convinced of it's playstyle relevance and it does not feel as interesting as the other two, even if it is not really bad.

The aerials and grab game, I feel, are not quite as good as the rest of the set. The aerials aren't bad, but the grab aerial's range might need to be a bit lower given it's KO power, and I feel like moves could have been improved. I would have loved a move that allowed her to pick up an aerial rifle with one of them, which could have opened up some good possibilities, and for the Up Aerial to...say...have an option to fire off a rifle shot in exchange for more ending lag and being forced down a little by tapping A, which would have given her interesting use against air dodges and for juggling. And even if it IS a pummel, I wish it was there: Is it a fast one you can safely use while reeling in or a slow one you have to be careful with? You could even have the pummel reel the foe in faster in exchange for the foe being able to escape easier. There's plenty of options there and it missing just bugs me when it takes maybe two sentences to write a generic pummel if need be. And while Up Throw/Back Throw felt like they had playstyle relevance, Forward Throw and Down Throw did not.

Still, I did quite like the set, with it's elegant playstyle in a sort of push and repel manner, creating a constant tug-o-war and so on, with excellent approach breaking. I don't think she fully realized the playstyle concept you mean, perhaps being a bit too much of a setup or a bit less on the DI reading, but I still like it more than Electivire, so it is my favorite DM set at the moment. Good show.


First off, it gets REALLY annoying every time you say to refer to the image at the top, as I have to keep scrolling up to see what it is.

Secondly, the grab is seperate from the throws. Why? Just...just why?

Thirdly, I don't really like the moveset. While it has the barest bones of a playstyle, it is never expanded beyond the basic essentials, with the basic moves never moving on beyond basic moves to the realm of any kind of real flow or playstyle. The vampirism on the grab doesn't really feel all that great nor taken advantage of all that well, so I can't say I like that, and the Specials feel bad rather than good, with terraforming that is actively bad, a Down Special which I cannot understand using, an Up Special that isn't too great and a Neutral Special that sounds like generic stun or otherwise not that great. And none of it gets much taken advantage of.

What else is there to say?

Not Actually A Hugo Set

Seriously, all throughout Koopa Troopa I thought this was a Hugo set because it kept saying "Koopa Troopas".

As for the set, it's very boring, with inputs that are generic but also do not flow, although it does have a neat little idea of putting them on the 3 end of a 3v1 matchup and working together, taking advantage of the Koopa Troopa's classic hiding in a shell to pinball around. Unfortunately, the pinballing is little and underdeveloped, so it never blossoms into something all that great. With the size of the attacks and the fact they are just generic unflow-y ones, there is not really anything else to say. Sorry for the small comment.


Smash Lord
Apr 26, 2007
Las Vegas, Nevada
"To right the countless wrongs of our day, we shine this light of true redemption, that this place may become as paradise."
"What a wonderful world such would be..."

Megumi Kitaniji is one of the main antagonists of The World Ends With You, a popular DS Action RPG. Kitaniji is the Conductor of the Reaper's Game of Shibuya, a game on which those who are "dead" are judged. Being the Conductor means that he takes orders from the Composer, then appropriates those orders into the game itself, functioning much as their respective roles in music: The Composer creates the piece and the Conductor lays out the plan and makes sure they are conducted. This role gets turned about some in the game itself, but you are not here for a plot summary, are you?

Kitaniji's battle prowess is quite strong as befitting his stature, with perhaps his most powerful ability being his time stop, which is precisely what it sounds like on the tin. He also conducts lines for laser paths and fires some intense energy projectiles. He also appears to have lesser abilities similiar to the Composer as seen later on, such as blasts of light.

Character Composition

"Any and all specifics are decided by the Composer. That is His exclusive and incontrovertible right."

Kitaniji is a pretty tall fellow although a bit lanky, giving him a size comparable to a slightly taller Marth. Unfortunately, his weight doesn't quite match up to his size, and he similiarly has a weight about as low as Marth. Similiarly unfortunate is his slow ground speed which plagues him, with his walk a slow and deliberate pace and his dash a "quick" hover just above the ground that goes at about the speed of Lucas'. Don't expect Kitaniji to be winning any races, you hear?

He doesn't fare much better aerially, either. He's naturally very floaty, making it easier to KO him off the top, and while he has amazing aerial control he also goes amazingly slow. Jumping into the air most certainly is not the solution to your issues of speed or survivability. On the plus side, he has nice jumps, most notably a nice high first jump.

Kitaniji has his own float with the same mechanics as Peach's, along with the same duration, although it goes slightly slower. The animation is identical to his dashing animation. He can't wall jump, wall cling, crawl or glide.

Musical Speciality

"I owe you no more explanations! Only destruction!"

Neutral Special: Tape Delay

Kitaniji snaps his finger for the starting lag of his move, before it stays in a sort of pointing forward pose. For as long as you hold down B, you control a red line which appears just in front of Kitaniji as he moves his arm about as if conducting, which you can move in any direction you can get it at the speed of Kitaniji's dash. This red line can go right through walls, the stage, you get the idea and is entirely non-solid, nor is it a hitbox. In fact, it does not impede the foe in any possible way. When you've made the line in whatever manner you want, stop pressing B and Kitaniji will almost laglessly stop conducting the line, with the line staying wherever it was drawn.

So, what does this line do? Well, nothing, until you activate it with another press of your Neutral Special, which causes it to function as what it's meant to be: A laser path. The entire thing, essentially, becomes a laser hitbox for a moment. It's a very quick move due to it's mere startup lag of Kitaniji snapping his fingers, but it likewise lasts a brief time before sizzling out, making timing incredibly important for this potent move.

The laser deals 16% damage and some quite strong knockback that will send Mario rocketing off the side blast zones at 110%, though how good of a KO option it is depends on how much you use it to damage rack, unless you unstale it of course. This move has a lot of obvious uses for Kitaniji that we will get into as we show off more moves.

Down Special: Time, Be Still!

Kitaniji crosses both of his arms across his chest while shouting "Time, be still!". which does exactly what you'd expect: Stops time. For the entire next three seconds, actually. The entire screen goes monochrome during this time, save for Kitaniji himself. Starting lag isn't TOO long, but it's not short, so you'll want to plan a little for this. It has some ending lag, but...with time stopped, the opponent can't really hit you for that, can they? While time is stopped, everything is frozen in place, and the timer in timed matches even stops to boot.

Kitaniji can hit the foe around if he wants to during this time, but any opponent who takes 15% damage is broken out of the timestop from the force, allowing them to move around early, though everything else remains frozen. Kitaniji may want to instead use this chance to set up some pieces of his game without worry: He can use his Neutral Special and get tons of free setup time or fire off some of his projectiles, which remain suspended wherever they come out due to the timestop. Note that Kitaniji cannot in any way end the entire timestop early, so be careful when you use it, as you have to use it then.

It also takes Kitaniji seven seconds once the move has ended to recharge this move: You can tell if he has a full charge by if Kitaniji is flashing or not, similiar to many other such charge moves in Brawl. Kitaniji also does not start with a full charge and so must wait seven seconds before his first time stop. The time stop charges passively, just like Wario Waft...however, unlike the Waft, it won't recharge while you do anything. Kitaniji's time stop will only recharge while he is not attacking or being attacked, so you must be careful about when to choose your spots and went to sit back and let the orchestra play out in front of you. An indespensible tool to Kitaniji, but one which much be handled cautiously.

Side Special: Record Repeat

Kitaniji holds his hand out in front of him, creating some swirly vortex lookin' thing, about the size of Jigglypuff, floating above the ground in front of him some. It is adorned with the Reaper symbol, which can be seen on such pins as the Red Skull Pin, giving you a neat visual reference. Anyway, you probably just want to know what they do, don't you?

This energy vortex appropriately shoots out energy projectiles colored the same blue as the vortex itself. These thin but somewhat wide projectiles appear somewhat like a disc, but with blades coming out two of the sides, horizontal to each other...kind of looks like a hurricane on a weather report, if you've seen that. It spits these in various eight directions going clockwise: Up, up and to the right, right, down and to the right, down, down and to the left, left and finally, up and to the left, with each one being a decent bit away from each other. It spits them out over a course of two seconds total duration, meaning it takes two seconds to complete the cycle, then rests for two seconds, then spits out more projectiles. It's pretty simple once you get past the specifics, no?

Kitaniji can place these anywhere he wants, but they're probably best placed short hopped if you want them near the ground, as it allows the bottom three hitboxes to be more effective. These vortexes can be dispersed by destroying their small 20 HP, but the fact you're on a timer makes it sort of risky, especially when Kitaniji could time stop you or if they're placed near a Neutral Special laser path...each projectile does 6% damage and small enough knockback that depending on your position when you get hit, you could get hit by multiples of this projectile. Kitaniji can only have two of these portals out at a time, so choose wisely where you want to put them: Kitaniji can use this move to create a new one by destroying the first one, but this causes it to change from low starting lag to quite hefty as he uses his power to destroy the first vortex.

Up Special: Unity of Breath

Kitaniji spreads his arms wide for a moment, giving this move a decent bit of starting lag, before putting them down...and freely floating in place as if it was the ground.

Kitaniji now has three seconds of essentially "free floating", which means you can essentially move in any direction you can put the control stick, moving at slightly lower than Kitaniji's dash speed. Kitaniji will use the same animation as his dash attack, even using it to go straight up if you go that way, for this move. While this is all very cool, this move runs on another one of those pesky rechargable timers, similiar to R.O.B.'s Up Special...but you need to be on the ground for twice as long as you used for recharging. So being on the ground two seconds recharges one second of Up Special time.

The cool thing about this move is, well, I mentioned how he essentially is walking on air, yes? This move doesn't allow you to use your aerials: Instead, you can now use your standards and smashes in midair! It's like you're standing on the air! Controls are the exact same as on the ground, though do note that you can use diagonals to cause Kitaniji to essentially move up or down and create interesting angles. For example, hold diagonally forward to cause him to walk up and now be using up and down as if it was solid, left and right ground. You can cancel this move by hitting Up Special or air dodging, by the way, allowing you to get out of it, though you'll fall into helpless...the ending lag is a bit bad in the air, but is nonexistant if you travel to the ground, as he will simply go into his dash or, if you stop holding the control stick, his standing animation.

Instrumental Groove

"Didn’t you feel it in Shibuya? Rage. Hate. Misery. Envy. Fear. Self-deprecation. A cacophony of countless selfish wants. As that noise swells, it turns into crime, warfare... All the world’s ills can be traced to individuality!"

Grab: Collared

Kitaniji grabs the foe, with only slightly above average grab range. It's also slightly above average in speed, making it a good grab. If he grabs a character who is applicable, such as Link, he'll grab them by the scruff of their shirt/other outfit, otherwise simply being a normal grab animation.

Pummel: Skull Pin Slammer

Kitaniji slams a Red Skull Pin (which I have helpfully linked once more!) into the foe, either in their clothing if possible or just sticking it on them otherwise, a somewhat slow pummel that deals only 1% damage. If you use it repeatedly, he'll concentrate on it and have it glow red with stored energy, also a slow pummel that deals 1%. He can't store more energy into it after the foe escapes or he throws them until the pin he has on them is removed and during that time his pummel is replaced with a laggy kick dealing 3% damage.

Shield Special: Cessation of Self

Surprised to see this? A shield special, for those uninformed, is pressing the B button plus the shield button, quite simple. When Kitaniji uses this move, he will open his arms wide while reciting the quote used at the very top of the moveset, which causes all Red Skull Pins to begin glowing an ominous red for a moment.

You see, the Red Skull Pins are imprinted with the imagination of Kitaniji himself, which allows him to dominate the mind of any person the pin is placed upon, just like his master plan to save Shibuya in the game. Those who are inflicted, caused by wearing a pin due to the pummel, have their thoughts betrayed by the domination of his mind. Whenever the opponent would input an attack, they will have an increase of lag on it of about 10 frames, as a transparent illusion of the foe quickly uses the foe's attack in front of them, having no hitbox or hurtbox but betraying the attack they were threatening Kitaniji with. Thanks to the small amount of lag increase, the foe is still certainly able to fight back, but you still get a good amount of advanced warning of their strikes, allowing you to shield, dodge and counter appropriately...though do note that, again, the lag being only slightly heightened means you won't really always have the luxury. This state lasts 3 seconds, plus one second for each additional bit of energy added with consecutive usages of the pummel.

With moves like Tape Delay and his time stop, the usages of this move should be obvious.

Forward Throw: Long Live Light

Kitaniji pushes the foe forward about half a Battlefield platform which deals 3% damage while quickly charging up a blast of light in his free palm, which he shoots forward at the foe, dealing 10% damage and some pretty light knockback. This move is pretty basic, but it has some pretty good uses: It's a nice positioner and it's two-hit, two-attack nature makes it take up two slots in your stale move negation queue, meaning that if your Neutral Special is really stale you can try and use this to help refresh it. As such, it is a valuable tool for those who use the Neutral Special to KO.

Down Throw: Soulverload

Kitaniji throws the foe roughly onto the ground while charging his hand with red energy similiar to the Red Skull Pins' color, before slamming it into the foe. The move in total does a mere 5% damage and knockback that can't KO at 999% if the foe doesn't have a Red Skull Pin on them, making it only useful if you want to keep the foe really close.

If the foe does have a Red Skull Pin put on them, though, it will overload it, causing the throw to instead deal 10% damage plus 3% more damage for each extra imprint on the Red Skull Pin, which KOs at 155% plus 5% earlier for each extra imprint on the Red Skull Pin, making it a decent killing option and a cool way to put some wrecking damage into the foe. Unfortunately, overloading the pin causes it to shatter, so you can't use your Shield Special on them until you put another one on them, plus using it on foes under your Shield Special's sway will cause it to end immediately...

To mentally dominate the foe or to shatter their very existance? That connundrum depends on the circumstances.

Up Throw: Collective Unconsciousness

Kitaniji's palm glows red, the same red as the Red Skull Pin, as he slams it into the foes chest for 9% damage. What happens next depends on if you hit A or not. Don't hit A and he will bring his palm to the ground, red energy trailing from where he hit the foe to the ground, before kicking them up for 3% damage and light knockback. The foe is now tethered to that part of the stage, unable to move more than one Battlefield platforms away from or two Ganondorfs above the tether, being snapped back into the tether's range if they are hit out of it by knockback. Good news is that the tether only has 25 HP, so it goes down in 2-3 attacks pretty easy, and Kitaniji can't tether the foe with more than one tether at once.

Hit A and Kitaniji will hold his palm out and wait for the player to input a direction, wherein he shoots the energy a Battlefield platform in that direction, tethering it to any solid object there. If there is nothing or only ground, then it either tethers to nothing or just tethers to the ground there. No matter what, Kitaniji will kick the foe in that direction for 3% damage. Do remember that the foe still has a fair amount of range from the tether, even if it is reduced, and conduct their limited space to your will.

Back Throw: Soul Strike

Kitaniji shows off some of his physical prowess by elbowing the foe in the face for 8% damage, before slinging them behind him for another 8% as they impact the ground a set one Battlefield platform distance away, landing in prone. This is the most damaging of Kitaniji's throws, barring a souped up Solverload, and does something that Kitaniji always likes: it gives him space and breathing room and sets the momentum in his favor. A simple throw? Yes, but it does a lot for him with it's controlling nature, so I feel it is fine.

Basic Cacophony

"Welcome to the new Shibuya."

Jab: Snake Symphony

Kitaniji swings his arm forward, projecting some weird red...snake-like thing from his arm, which he does in fact actually do in battle. This gives him good range on his quick jab, which deals 4% damage, with another hit causing him to take a little step forward and lash out with his other arm as well, dealing 6% damage while still being quick. Something interesting about this move is the odd placement of hitstun and knockback during it: The first hit actually has more of the knockback of the two, though not to a KOing extent but decent for getting space, while the second hit has more hitstun, which allows better retreating.

Because of this, it's a lot better for getting space on lighter characters with the first hit since it will hit them away from the second hit quicker, while using the second hit more allows you to better use their usually slow nature against them...or to get away from those pesky fast heavyweights easier. And it still functions enough as a standard jab either way.

Forward Tilt: Light Music

Kitaniji rears one of his arms back before thrusting it forward, releasing a blast of light energy just thicker than a R.O.B. laser that goes the same length. This long starting average produces a projectile well worth it's weight however, dealing a grand 12% damage that even comes with decent knockback properties, KOing at 170%. The high starting lag prevents this from really being spammed, but it has low ending lag, so it can sometimes be a tad difficult.

One of the cool things about this move though is that you can aim it up and down, again much like the aforementioned laser, during startup. Angling up has the obvious advantage of hitting aerially foes, but angling down reveals the move has another laser-esque property: It will bounce off a solid object exactly once, such as aiming it at the ground to richochet it up...or aiming it at a wall to richochet it back or at an angle if angled. All well and good, but not too interesting, yes?

Now consider the fact that you can use your standards in midair, and change your facing direction in midair, with your Up Special. Now you can angle and bounce off of nearly anything to strike at a foe with impeccable aim or just plain have near unparalelled abilities in directional projectile control. The more walls the stage has, the better this move becomes, so using it on more complex stages is a viable tactic, such as shooting a richochet down into Temple's Cave of Life.

Down Tilt: Serpent Beat

Kitaniji sweeps both of his arms to the side, once again projecting those odd red snake-like things out to both side, meaning once again it's an attack with some decent range to both sides. This move is a definitive GTFO move, though it's starting lag isn't all that quick, with it's 13% damage and knockback that KOs at an even 200%. At the same time it's ending lag is the same as it's starting lag. Buuut...tilt the control stick either way during the ending lag and Kitaniji will do his hover-dash in that direction half a Battlefield platform during the end lag!

Absolutely no invincibility frames are ascribed to this special movement, making it strictly for the purposes of spacing and movement. Although if you can get just out of your foes range, you could cause a little whiff...or if the opponent rolls, you can use it as an approach/retreat option. But the fun thing to do is to combine it with your Up Special float, as you can then use it to go in many directions: Attack the up and down planes by using this while vertical, then dash towards the ground to follow a foe for example, especially since hitting the ground during that would allow you to transition laglessly into your dash or standing animation, just like the Up Special says. This is one of your ultimate mobility and attack options in the end, but it's lack of lag help can be pesky and makes it difficult to actually spam.

Up Tilt: Composer Kick

Kitaniji scoots his foot forward a little before swiftly kicking it upwards, launching anyone unfortunate enough to be in range up into the air with surprisingly high knockback that KOs at 180%, although it only deals 9% damage. That little foot scoot gives this move a bit more starting lag than you'd expect, although I'd hesitate to call it slow, but the ending lag is quite fast, allowing easy follow-ups and little time for punishment. This move might seem a bit basic, but one should not doubt the Conductor's abilities so easily.

Dashing Attack: Flash Crash

Kitaniji's hover-dash rushes forward a little more, moving forward to the not-so-incredible speed of Wolf during this, his entire body enveloped in a white light, dealing a sizzling 13% to anyone unlucky enough to cross him during his charge while knocking them away for knockback that KOs at 210% or so. This move is pretty good when you consider it's quick start-up time and the fact he goes a good 3/4ths of a Battlefield platform before coming to a stop...though the ending lag is a bit high as Kitaniji, ahem, composes himself. This forms one of your cool close range options and, as you'll soon see, much more.

Smashing Symphony

"The Composer’s utmost concern is mankind’s happiness. He exists to shepherd the human race toward the right future, and thus all His Acts are motivated by boundless love. You think egotists like yourselves have the right to lay your eyes--let alone a finger--on a being so far above you? You’re not even on the same plane!"

Forward Smash: Light of True Redemption

Kitaniji raises a hand with his palm open, before bringing it down when the move is actually executed. This starting lag is quite fast and ending lag is similiarly lightning speed...but the attack doesn't seem to do anything. Huh?

This attack indeed has a delay on it: You won't recieve any payoffs for using this attack until two seconds later, when a beam of light strikes down the foe's position when the attack was released. So if the opponent is standing a Battlefield platform in front of you when you execute this move, that is where the beam will strike. The beam creates a small explosion about a crouching Bowser in height and half a Battlefield platform total in width, giving it good range but not exactly amazingly so. And, of course, the foe can always move out of the way in the does deal a neat 17%-21% damage however, though it's KO power is limited to KOing at 160%-130%.

Charging this move does not just charge up it's power, however: Did you not notice that it is two seconds before it strikes, the same as a smash's charging time? The more the move is charged, the quicker the beam comes down, to the point of being practically instantanous at full charge...of course, then the foe has seen you charging for that long, haven't they? Makes it easier to dodge in that regard...

But the important of this move cannot be stressed enough. Consider Kitaniji's Neutral Special and Side Special: Kitaniji has numerous ways to control sections of the stage and conduct the battle to his will, and the Forward Smash is yet another extension of that, as the foe will be forced to move often if you continue to bombard them with these light blasts, areas that will be limited due to your aforementioned moves: Shall they approach and possibly fall victim to your deadly time stop, especially at close ranges where you can set up forward tilt projectiles suspended in midair and other such nonsense, or perhaps become enraptured in your imagination and fault their timing, making approaching them or raining light upon them all too easy? Or shall they retreat and try to find another way to deal with their assailant, despite the constant bombardment and his ability to spread hitboxes about the stage? It is all conducted according to Kitaniji's will all the same...

Down Smash: Mental Walls

Kitaniji's hands glow white as he gathers energy in them, before he thrusts open palms to both sides of him, sending walls of white energy out to each side. These walls travel a Battiefield platform to each side of him, striking anyone who touches them for 17%-21% damage and knockback that KOs at 175%-150%. These walls don't just disappear at the end of this move, however: they stick around for the next 6 seconds, coming to a rest after their hitbox ends as solid walls. These Ganondorf-tall walls can be used for a variety of purposes: you can reflect your forward tilt projectiles off of them first and foremost, but you can also tether foes to it with your Up Throw, which can let you set up unigue vantages to force your foe onto. And remember what I said about up tilt? That comes into play here!

Use an up tilt next to a wall and Kitaniji will flip it over with his foot as he kicks upwards, turning it from a wall into a drop through platform! it still reflects your projectile, even, allowing you to place many different angles...especially when you consider you can use your Up Special to Down Smash at odd angles and then flip them around with your Up Tilt! Do note that your Up Special will not refresh while on these platforms and that creating many of them to stall on is...infeasible, to say the least. No real infinite stall potential. You can also use the up tilt at the edge of a platform to flip it back up into a wall, the flipping cancelling the attack and letting Kitaniji enter his aerial state easily.

If you use your Dash Attack at a wall, Kitaniji will pass right through it, the wall glowing brightly as the light from the dash attack begins to overload it's energy. One and a half seconds later, the entire thing explodes in a short-ranged energy blast, damaging any foe in range for 15% damage and knockback that KOs at 140%. If walls are getting in your way or you want to turn them into some traps, just Dash Attack through them and BOOM! If you do this while your time stop is up, then the timer on them will be frozen until the time stop ends, allowing you to set up a multitude of traps for the foe to deal with when the effect ends.

Lag-wise, I'd call this move very average on both ends, as it will not surprise foe's with quickness, but it certainly isn't laggy, which makes it an excellent move to clear out foes. Remember that the walls are not solid until they come to a stop, but merely hitboxes, so you can roll through this attack and such.

Up Smash: Reaper's Harvest

Kitaniji holds his arms out as three swirly shuriken-like projectiles appear, two in his hands and right in front of him, the projectiles similiar in appearance to his Side Special's projectiles. He then throws them into the air, the one right in front of him heading straight up while the other two go diagonally in each direction, striking for 15%-19% damage and upwards knockback that KOs at 180%-160%. This move's wide range plus the projectiles not disappearing until they hit solid ground, a foe, go offstage or have been around for 4 seconds makes this an excellent anti-air move, plus it doesn't have bad ending lag...the starting lag, however, is more than you'll find on your average smash attack.

These projectiles have a special property to them, though, and that is the fact they reflect right off of your walls! Unlike your Forward TIlt, they can't reflect off everything, but only on your specialized walls. While this means careful placement must be employed, it also means a great number of possibilities due to how long the projectiles stay out, as you can create mazes of these with proper wall placement and create true devastation for the foe...and that is not counting the fact you can time stop to set this up or delay their shot! Truly, this is a splendiferous move.

Aerial Aria

"Now, Player, we play for keeps."

Down Aerial: Soul Slicing

Kitaniji causes three swirly projectiles to appear around him, just like in his Up Smash, before shooting them down at the same straight-down + diagonals angle as his Up Smash, albeit angled downwards. He doesn't put as much power into these, giving them only a strength of 11% but with decent upwards knockback, but that does give them faster starting's actually a bit fast, really.

Just like the Up Smash, these can be reflected, and last just as long. Still, this move has a few differences that make it interesting: The downwards angle creates new possibilities for angling the shots against the walls, but also allows an easier spread of them for thinning them out, and these projectiles are also slightly faster than the Up Smash's, which can be quite disconcerting if both are flying around. You can also shorthop these against a low platform from the Down Smash to reflect them up and around, and so on. Since they knock the foe up, you can also use it to put foes into the air.

Back Aerial: Escaping Thought

Kitaniji backflips backwards as he makes a slicing motion with his hand in front of him, the hand bathed in light energy. Anyone stricken by this strike takes 10% damage, but also is dealt shallow if weak knockback: It only KOs at 250%, but against foes with poor vertical recovery it can kill a fair deal sooner. At the same time, the backflip gives him some excellent and very quick aerial movement, which is quite tricky to defend and be offensive against. The starting lag on this is quite fast, although the ending lag is somewhat slow. A bread and butter aerial move for combat.

Up Aerial: Barrier Dance

Kitaniji forms a barrier over his head, like from the Down Smash, before performing a flipkick to send it flying up a Ganondorf in height, dealing 9% damage and knockback that KOs at 190%...but higher if you can catch the foe in the air. The wall sticks around but, due to the angle, is already angled like a platform and behaves as such, acting as a good way to get platforms into the air, at the expensive of only producing one (compared to the Down Smash's 2) and likely producing them in slightly worse positions. It is also excellent as an attack, however, due to large range, a disjointed hitbox and excellent ability to both aerially catapult foes and juggle them...just remember that foes can stay on your platforms to and that this move has a slightly laggy start and you're golden.

Forward Aerial: Heavy Music

Kitaniji holds his palm forward before letting loose a strong blast of light which deals 14% damage and is one of his better killers, KOing at around 145%. It has somewhat, but not badly so, high starting lag with surprisingly low ending lag and some decent range. It should be noted the blast is so strong that it pushes Kitaniji back when fired, although due to the timing this is more to protect against whiffs then, say, like your Back Aerial, which is for start-up protection. It also makes it annoying to use against ledges.

If this is used by a wall or platform, the blast will cause it to move forward about half of a Battlefield platform, so you can shorthop these or just plain use them in the air to re-arrange your set-up subtly. Good use.

Neutral Aerial: Free Use

Kitaniji's entire body glows with a bright reddish light that burns anyone who dares to touch it. If a foe is in contact with Kitaniji while he does this, they'll be stricken for 11% damage and some good GTFO knockback, though hardly a killer. The key thing for this move is that the low lag on both ends rounds up this move in two ways for Kitaniji: Shorthopped approaches and rounding out his aerial arsenal with a good actual move. It even slightly slows his fall speed while in use, letting it be somewhat useful for recoveries! For a basic move, it has some awesome bits.

Final Symphony: Instrumentality

"Heh. Take me on, and it may be the last game you ever play."

Kitaniji's Final Smash is a lot more useful in FFAs/2v2s than 1v1s, but let's get to the move itself first. This Final Smash depends on your Pummel to really work well. If you have no Red Skull Pins on anyone, it does nothing.

When activated, anyone with Red Skull Pins on them is turned to your team, making you immune to their damage...Kitaniji will obey no such rule though and can hit them around easily. In fact, their minds are like pudding to him in this state: If he grabs a mind controlled foe and uses his Pummel on them, he can take direct control of them and use their moveset, allowing him to fight with them by proxy...although if the mind controlled foe dies, it does not lose a stock for anyone, so be wary of using this on a highly damaged foe. This effect ends after 12 seconds.

In 1v1s, this instead causes the foe to experience effects similiar to Luigi's Negative Zone for 6 seconds, such as uncontrollable taunting, random control reversal and so on. The player is at the Conductor's baton and call.

Conducting an Orchaestra

"Music requires many things. Melody, performers, instruments... But the key element in the most divine music is a Conductor, to hold it all together. The world is very much the same. Under one Conductor, one ideal the world of men marches toward bliss."

Kitaniji's playstyle is all about conducting the battle to his whim, to make the melody of the fight flow like a beautiful piece of music. Kitaniji does this by imposing his will on the battlefield and conducting movements: His time stop allows him the ultimate in both set-up and striking, but has sizable recharge time and he must wait to use it, while also distilling the essence ofh is playstyle to the core. Moves such as his Up Throw, Side Special, Neutral Special and Down Smash will limit the options of the foe so that they might follow the path he has dutifully laid out for him, while his Shield Special and Pummel let his will dominate the foe and truly conduct every one of their actions.

When you throw in his reflecting projectiles into the mix and the angles of which he can come at you, you truly realize the blissful combinations he can create of multiple sounds and rhythms flowing at once and yet in harmony, all into the playstyle of keeping the foe when and where you want them. Raining down blasts from Forward Throw is another way of keeping foes alert and on their toes...or punishing them for the insolence of being off key. Really, why do I even need to explain all of this? I feel that the way the moveset is described, much of it is self-evident, it has already conducted itself in front of you and now merely bows at the end of it's performance. Perhaps I shall release more sheet music later for this piece, if understanding is low on it's purpose, but the way he restricts options, controls the tempo of the match and works towards a goal of keeping the match constantly on his side tempo and momentum-wise are obvious.


Smash Apprentice
Mar 7, 2013
Jinbe, the Knight of the Sea

Jinbe is a whale shark fishman, coming from Fishman Island. He is the captain of the Sun Pirates, a crew composed only of fishmen. A former member of the Shichibukai, seven powerful pirates working for the government, he left the group to battle the Marines at the Marineford War, his bounty raising to 400.000.000 berrys (Approximately 4.000.000 dollars). His current whereabouts are unknown, but he promised to join Luffy's (The hero) crew later. He is probably the strongest living fishman, being a master of the Fishman Karate, a martial art involving water manipulation.


Weight: 9/10
Size: 10/10
Ground Speed: 8/10
Air Speed: 2/10
Fall Speed: 5/10

As you can see, while a powerful fighter on ground, Jinbe is pretty weak in the air. Of course, a fishman isn't really expected to fight while airborne. His walk is rather slow, but his dash is deceptively fast, and he can pack quite a punch. However, as simplistic as he looks, he got a « special » mechanic: he can't drown, ever. Likewise, in water, he swims really fast, being a fishman and all, giving him a slight advantage in watery stages. His traction is also pretty good.

Special Moves

Down Special: Mizugokoro

Jinbe may be a Fishman Karate master, but he knows Fishman Jujutsu too! He draws the ambient moisture in, shaping it into a ball of water between his hands. While laggy (It takes 2 seconds to finish) and non-damaging, it is completely crucial to Jinbe's playstyle. It will allow him to wet the opponent with some normals and specials. You might say, « Meh, it's gonna make slip that's all », well no. It will be better than that. As a side note, you can use this move while swimming to greatly reduce lag (Only 0.5 seconds). Also, the opponent will get dry if he moves around for a moment or get hit a fire attack. Jinbe benefits from two his of Super Armor, but is still vulnerable to grabs.
When using Mizugokoro while it is already active, he will simply throw the water ball on the ground. While it is making it a bit slippery and reducing traction, it will also wet opponents with a direct hit. 8% damage, medium knockback.

Up Special: Gosenmaigawara Seiken

A boring recovery move, it's just a rising uppercut. Not too bad, but not great either. However, it is far better as an attack, dealing 10% damage and good knockback. Nothing else to say, let's move on shall we?

Neutral Special: Karakusagawara Saiken

Jinbe's other crucial move, he punches forward, sending a small shockwave forward. While uninpressive normally (6% damage, bad knockback, stops after a rather short distance) and rather slow to come out (A tiny bit faster than a Falcon Punch), when the opponent is wet, it is far better. You see, the Karakusa works by punching the hell out of ambient moisture. As such, when an opponent is wet, it can hit him anywhere on the screen. When used from afar (More than two Final Destinations), it will deal 5% damage and small knockback, from a medium distance (Between one and two Final Destinations), 10% damage and medium knockback and when close (Less than one Final Destination), 20% damage and high knockback, making it an excellent killer move. Even better, to make up for it's difficulty (Remember, you must get somebody wet and then be safe enough to throw the punch), it will hit around him, making back attacks inefficient.

While seemingly the best move ever, it is still laggy on the end and it dries the opponent, forcing you to use Mizugokoro again, for obvious balance reasons.

Side Special: Samehada Shotei

Jinbei will dash forward at a high speed, in a seemingly harmless fashion. However, don't be fooled – it's a counter! He will harmlessly swipe the incoming attack aside, stunning the opponent if used in close-quarters. While non-damaging by nature, it gives far enough time to use a dash attack or a Gosenmaigawara, making it a pretty good move.


Jab: Fishman Palm Strikes

A plain three-hit combo, Jinbe will strike forward three times with his palm. Nothing else to say, really. 4%, 3%, 5%.

Forward Tilt: Upper Palm Strike

Jinbe will step forward a bit, hitting the opponent with a rising palm. This will lift opponents in the air, allowing some juggling and making it good overall for combos. 7% damage..

Down Tilt: Sweeping Kick

A sweeping kick. There's a 20% chance to make the opponent trip and it's pretty fast, making it a good poke. It is a bit slow on the end, but it's not too big a problem. 6% damage, no knockback.

Up Tilt: Skyward Palm

A basic uppercut up tilt, it can juggle the opponent pretty well. 8% damage, small knockback.

Dash Attack: Samegawara Seiken

Jinbe will jump forward, striking with his fist. It got a sweetspot at the very end of his fist that will send the opponent reeling back in pain, stunning them for a little moment. Other than that, it's standard fare. 8% damage, medium knockback.


Neutral Smash: Buraiken

Jinbe will strike forward with his palm, dealing 15%-21% and doing great knockback. It becomes much more interesting when Mizugokoro has been used, however: Jinbe will send a water ball forward, wetting his opponents. If used at close range, he will instead grab an opponent and punch the water ball through your infortunate victim, dealing 20% damage, wetting him and still sending a water ball forward. It is devastating if used properly.

Up Smash: Nanasenmaigawara Mawashigeri

Jinbe will do a very powerful roundhouse kick upward, dealing 16%-21% and huge knockback. It's not your standard roundhouse kick however, and it will send back any solid projectile it hits (Liek Snake's Grenade or Mr. Saturn) with great force. Other than that, it got super armor for a single hit.

Down Smash: Groundshaking Strikes

Jinbe will strike the ground with his palms three times, creating shockwaves around him, dealing 13%-18% and knocking back close opponents. With a Mizugokoro, he will splash water on the ground, wetting any incoming enemy and the floor, reducing traction and all.


Grab: Fishman Grab

Yup, Jinbe grabs his opponent. When you have used Mizugokoro, it will instantly wet the opponent, making it actually pretty useful.

Pummel: Gut Strikes

Jinbe will repeatedly strikes the opponent in the gut. It's a fast pummel, dealing 2% per hit for a maximum of 5 hits.

Side Throw: Overhead Throw

A basic throw who launches the opponent a good distance away. Other opponents can be hit by the throwed one, dealing a measly 5% damage. Deals 6% alone.

Up Throw: Skyward Launch

Jinbe will throw his opponent upwards with great force, sending him high in the sky. A basic throw with nothing special. 6% damage too.

Down Throw: Fishman's Hook

Jinbe will do a powerful gut strike, stunning the opponent. Strong in itself, it can also begin some good combos. 7%


Neutral Aerial: Fishman Karate Chop

Jinbe will chop forward, dealing 5% and small knockback. It comes out pretty fast but it's close range only, use be careful when using it.

Side Aerial: Fishman Karate Flying Kick

An attack mainly used to get around in midair, Jinbe will kick forward for a Mario-tall distance. 6% damage, but it's rather hard to hit with, use it to either get away or get close.

Down Aerial: Fishman Karate Diving Kick

A diving kick, nothing special. It can get you quickly to the ground, useful for getting in. 4% damage but it's very quick.

Up Aerial: Shark Bite

Jinbe may be a karate master, but he still know how to throw a good bite. He's a Whale Shark fishman after all. He will firmly chomp them, dragging them to the ground. 7% but a little slow on the startup.

Final Smash
Rising Sea

Water will suddenly rise up from the ground, submerging the entire arena. Enemies can't drown, but Jinbe becomes an absolute beast: while his enemies are slowed down and weakened by 50%, he himself gets 20% faster and stronger. But more importantly, his Neutral B will become much faster, and will strike at full power every time. Also, when pressing B + a direction, Jinbe will summon whale sharks from that direction's opposite, making them drag any infortunate opponent to his death. It is escapable though, and it's rather slow to come out. Whale sharks do 5% per second. The Final Smash will end after 10 seconds, leaving Jinbe weakened for a moment.


Jinbe is naturally fast and powerful. As such, his ground game is centered around power and domination. He's got some pretty good approaches, he can either dash straight to his opponent and throw a Side B or a dash attack, stunning him either way, or go the aerial way and jump over projectiles. Speaking of his air game, it's really not his forte. His up attack can drag the opponent back to the ground and his side attack can help him move around the field, but it's more risky than anything else. Jinbe is at home on ground, and he knows it.

Of course an important part of his offense is his B attacks. While it can be hard to complete Mizugokoro, his smashes will help him knocking the opponent away. He will then need to wet the opponent of course, but that's not the hard part: the hard part is keeping the opponent wet. If he's left to his own devices he will just dry himself by running. Here comes his stunning attacks, who will obviously prevent the opponent from moving. Then, what will he do? Will he try to use his neutral B in close-quarters to kill the opponent early, or will he rack up the damage and finish him at a distance?

However Jinbe is not without weaknesses: his air game is rather bad, his best moves are slow to come out, and he will have trouble fighting very agile opponents, who will just laugh off his water. As such, when used in a team, a bullet hell character would be required to help him get close and personal, like Chakravartin perhaps.

He's overall a good character, but some training is needed in order to master him completely.

Big Mac

Banned via Warnings
Sep 13, 2012

The Gruesome Twosome are a pair of Halloween Themed racers from Wacky Races, riding together in a motor home known as the Creepy Coupe. While Big Gruesome (The Frankenstein’s Monster) and Little Gruesome (The Vampire/Bat) are the drivers of the vehicle. Little Gruesome takes the wheel, for the most part, while Big Gruesome deals with the other racers in a manner not unlike Mario Kart Double Dash. There are a horde of other various creatures inside the back of the coupe, ready to be deployed to cheat at a moment’s notice. The most frequent monster by far is their dragon which they rely on for flight, even coming out of the coupe to join the main twosome as a full “character” on occasion. That said, they have a horde of otherworldly creatures inside of it, pulling out several random ones for only a single episode. The coupe itself also has supernatural powers tied to it, having the ability to summon rainstorms and tornados among other things.


Weight: 40
Size: 33
Falling Speed: 20
Ground Movement: 2-8
Aerial Speed: 4
Aerial Control: 2
Traction: 0.5
Jumps: 0

The coupe itself is twice as wide as Bowser. The front is as tall as Peach, while the back is 1.65X as tall as Ganondorf. Big Gruesome, even just his upper half that’s sticking up out of the coupe, sticks out of the front of the coupe, going up another Marth height while being wide as Ganondorf. This gives the coupe a truly massive size, the largest vehicle set to date. With it already being so huge, one must keep in mind the massive contents of the vehicle before realizing just how heavy it is.

Only selective portions of the coupe are solid, rather than the entirety of it. The coupe does not have the luxury of having the front or back be solid to casually push foes around as it pleases. Unfortunately, it has to deal with the front section of the vehicle in front of the Gruesome Twosome being solid, enabling foes to stand directly in front of them. Foes can also stand on the top of the haunted mansion like construct in the back of the coupe. While there’s enough room for Bowser to easily stand in these areas, ridiculously wide characters such as other vehicle sets cannot stand on these areas. The steeple has grabbable ledges for foes, though not the front portion of the vehicle.

The ability to stand in front of the drivers lets any character easily grab them. If you grab the Gruesome Twosome, you can deal damage, stun, and any status effects you wish to them, but not knockback – obviously no bizarre “statuses” that would remove them from the car will work. If you grab the actual coupe, you can deal full damage and knockback to it with your attacks, but no stun or status effects. While the Gruesome Twosome are stunned, the creepy coupe can still use any moves involving the dragon, but no other moves. No, the Gruesome Twosome and the dragon cannot attack at the same time. The Gruesome Twosome do have a shield that only covers them specifically for what it’s worth, though the main point of coming up to attack them is to grab them. If you deal shield push to the Gruesome Twosome, you will inflict it to yourself instead, though, making the shield a more decent defensive option.

The coupe will not turn around by default and will simply attempt to drive backwards when you hold back on the control stick – a double tap is required to turn the truck around, which is a very laggy process. The coupe has to accelerate from a 1-8 in movement speed, and won’t reach 8 until traveling the entirety of Battlefield. When the truck is moving, it’s a hitbox based off how fast it is, capping at 20% and knockback that KOs at 100%. If you attempt to stop a dash and start up your beyond awful traction, the Gruesome Twosome will spin the coupe around to face the opposite direction, moving a platform forward as they do so and keeping his hitbox in-tact with 1.35x the power. If they had 4/10 or less movement speed, they’ll come to a complete stop by doing this. Attempting to turn around while having no momentum at all results in a much laggier process. If the Gruesome Twosome was moving faster than 4/10, the coupe will tip over, increasing the power of the hitbox to 1.5x how fast the coupe was going. If it was going fast enough, it will roll forwards a good distance with this hitbox in-tact. When you’re tipped over, you can “wiggle” back up by pressing left and right in turn.

If you want to stop when moving over 4/10 movement without tipping over, you can input back to slam on the brakes, slowing down 1.5x as fast as you speed up. Just don’t expect the foe to be so kind as to not poke you over the edge if you come to a stop there. Because of the coupe’s terrible traction, it can drive in reverse without turning around if you attempt to –walk- backwards instead of double tapping to dash. Due to all of these natural hitboxes, the coupe has no dashing attack, but can use all attacks while moving.

The Creepy Coupe –can- be put into prone and pitfalled. Both of these status effects must target the tires to function. Putting the coupe in prone only works if he’s moving, in which case he will spin out like if he triggers his traction. Pitfalling the coupe causes those wheels to fill into the ditch, causing the coupe to be unable to move and banning the coupe’s Up Special until the Gruesome Twosome escape at grab difficulty. Because of the angle the coupe will now be at while pitfalled, many of the coupe’s attacks will now be aimed diagonally downward when they otherwise wouldn’t, making them awkward to hit with.


The Dragon extends his head out of the Creepy Coupe, you gaining control as it extends out wherever you want at Mario’s dashing speed. The dragon’s neck can extend out infinitely, a trait it very regularly displays in the series. To stop extending it, press Neutral B again, and the dragon’s head and neck will stay out where it is, obviously moving around as the coupe does what with being connected to it, but keeping the stance you’ve set for it. You can start and stop moving the dragon’s head whenever you like with this move, and you can use any dragon moves while in the process of using this move.

The dragon’s neck, while not entirely solid, is a constant drop-through platform. He can’t –stop- foes from going through him, but he make can life awkward for foes who want to abuse projectiles as well as their air games, constantly triggering the landing lag of enemies over and over with clever play. The creepy coupe cannot stand on the dragon’s neck, but otherwise treats it the same as foes.

While an incredibly powerful tool for the Gruesome Twosome, the dragon is not invincible, much like in the series. He has 150 HP, meaning if you extend him out all over the stage you’re increasing your range but also your hurtbox. Hitting the head specifically is even worse, as it not only deals stun to the dragon which prevents him from using moves while not dealing knockback (Though he can use Neutral Special during stun), it deals 2.5X the regular damage to the dragon.

The dragon cannot actually be “killed”. Depleting his HP just forces him to retract into the Coupe instantly. You can do this manually by mashing the Neutral B input, which will cause the dragon to retract his neck in the same way it came out at the speed of Sonic’s dash for as long as you mash. The dragon regenerates HP at a rate of 3.3 HP per second while inside the coupe. If “killed”, the dragon will refuse to come out until he at least regenerates to 60 HP, taking 20 seconds. Without the dragon, you lose your recovery, half your moveset, and the ability to attack enemies going out of their way to attack your blind spots. Use him conservatively.


The dragon’s wings sprout out of the Creepy Coupe as the coupe takes flight. This gives the coupe free flight for a horrifying 6 seconds, making the coupe almost invincible. The coupe regains the full 6 seconds whenever it touches down on the ground, no cooldown period or anything! With this in mind, you may want to abuse the flight to camp above the foe, extending out the dragon’s neck to attack foes below as well as attempting to land on top of the foe (The car’s bottom is a hitbox that deals 20% and a Ganon dair spike whenever the car is in the air and not using Up Special). Inputting the Dragon’s Up Special while already flying will cause the wings to retract early, saving any leftover flight time you had.

While flying with this move, your standards are replaced with aerials (You still have smashes and grab) as your regular movement is overwritten with your aerial movement and aerial capabilities. Going into the air normally will not trigger your “aerial state”, it must be done with this move. The coupe itself is not a hitbox when flying around with this move, only when driving along the ground with its momentum based ground movement.

The dragon’s wings and neck can be used entirely independently of each other. The only thing tying them together is the fact that they share the same HP system, with the wings being capable of being attacked to drain the dragon’s HP. You wouldn’t think this would be an issue, but a foe standing on top of the steeple in the back can just spam dsmash/dtilt or something to easily deplete the stamina of the wings while the coupe is flying.


Big Gruesome grabs a snake out of the coupe by the tail, then starts whirling it around above his head, a hitbox that deals 15 hits of 1% and flinching per second. He will do this for as long as you hold the button, then throw the snake in whatever direction you angle with as much force as Yoshi’s Egg Toss. The Snake will attempt to latch onto anyone it hits as it flies through the air. If successful, the snake will latch onto the foe and bite them once every second, dealing 8% and knockback that KOs at 150%. The snake being coiled around the foe does a constant 2% per quarter second as well. Foes must deplete the snake’s 40 HP to kill it and get it off them. One snake isn’t that terribly bad, but two, much less three, timed so that they are biting the foe at different times, is outright horrifying.

If you miss, the snake will slither along the ground, patrolling the stage back and forth at Meta Knight’s dashing speed. If they come into contact with anyone on the ground, they’ll attempt to slither up around them like when Big Gruesome initially threw them. While Snakes cannot slither along the side/bottom of the stage, they can slither along the dragon’s neck no matter how you angle it. They do this by coiling themselves around the dragon’s neck as they go. This gives the dragon an extra layer of defense/offense and lets you take these otherwise groundbound minions to the air, though if the dragon retracts the portion of his neck with the snake on it the snake will be considered “dead” as it goes back into the coupe.

A mechanic that has not been mentioned yet is that the wheels of the coupe are destructible, with only 60 HP that regenerates at a rate of 1 HP per second. Turning around causes the wheels on the other side of the coupe to become the ones targeted, so if one side is low on HP keep this in mind. Once a wheel is destroyed, it can’t regenerate health. Destroying a single wheel makes the coupe lose its passive momentum based hitbox, and caps the highest the coupe can move at a mere 2.5/10. Destroying both wheels on either the front or the back lowers it to 1/10. Destroying 3 wheels or wheels on opposite sides will cause the coupe to become entirely incapable of movement.

You can replace wheels by throwing a snake where a destroyed wheel once was as it coils up to allow the coupe to use it as a wheel, and any snake minions that pass a place where a wheel once was will automatically use themselves as wheels. Snakes still only have their 40 HP rather than the usual 60 of the regular wheels, so this isn’t ideal, but they can at least defend themselves, chomping anybody who comes near them with a laggy attack that deals 8% and knockback that KOs at 150%.

Throwing a snake directly at a wheel that’s still in-tact will cause it to coil around the wheel. Attacking it will cause the snake to be damaged instead of the wheel. The snake’s attack is still just as laggy as when it is being used as the literal wheel from this stance, but if successful will cause the snake to latch onto the foe.

While it’s not THAT laggy, the Side Special is awkwardly laggy enough to make it a pain when there are so many different instances for when you’re going to want to use the move. There is some grace, though, in that if Big Gruesome is hit before he can actually throw the snake, he’ll just drop it to the ground and it’ll become a minion anyway.

The destructible wheels disadvantage can seem incredibly crippling your first few matches playing this character, but you have to keep in mind the absolutely glorious Up Special you have at your disposal. Even with no wheels at all, the Up Special can still allow you to fly around as you see fit. Of course, you can’t fly forever when the dragon can be put out of commission too, as foes slowly whittle down your options to almost nothing. If they get that far, you’re fairly screwed, so you have to take preventive measures in advance. Ideally, flying with the dragon is the best time to replace/reinforce wheels with snakes, while the time you’re on the ground is time best spent giving the dragon a much needed rest.


A Pikachu sized spider comes to take a look out of the coupe. If you press B again quick, he’ll shoot his web in the desired direction immediately before going back into the coupe. If you move the control stick without pressing B again, though, the spider will crawl out of the coupe as you gain control of him. The spider moves as quickly as Meta Knight with 2 average jumps, though it has a pathetic 15 HP. In the least, it can stick to any solid surface, including the underside of the stage and the dragon’s neck. When you’re done moving the spider around to get a better vantage point, you can press B and any direction to fire out webbing. Pressing any button other than B will cancel out of this stance, with the spider standing in place until you use Down B again. If the spider is killed, he’s easy enough to resummon, but you must wait 10 seconds before doing so.

When shot, the web goes forwards 1-2 (The move can be charged a second) platforms at Mario’s dashing speed, and will stop and stick to whatever it comes in contact with. The webbing on the other side where the spider fired it will stick to that point, creating a web, unless the spider was in the air, in which case that side of the web will fall down until it hits something. If there’s nothing but empty air 2 platforms below it, the other side of the web will just hang there. Objects you stick webbing to don’t have to be solid, meaning you can attach the webbing to any part of the coupe you like, though if you try to overlap the two drivers with the webbing they’ll angrily tear it apart, just giving you lag.

A foe coming into contact with webbing will get them stuck. They will be treated as if they are on the ground in mid-air while on webbing, and can still attack normally. Their movement, however, is limited. After they first attempt to move, whenever they stop moving they will get snapped back to their position on the webbing and get further entangled, trapping themselves in a grab hitbox they must escape. To get out, they must dash away until they reach the edge of the webbing or for .6 seconds, whichever comes first. Foes can also attempt to simply destroy the webbing they’re stuck in, though each generated piece of webbing has 50 HP, more than you’d expect. If the web is purely vertical and thus foes can’t stand on it, (Such as the spider hanging a piece of web from the top of the steeple structure off the back of the vehicle or off the edge of the stage) foes cannot move at all while captured in the web and must use aerials to destroy the webbing.

If you hit a foe with the initial hitbox on the move when it comes out, the foe is considered to be the opposite “anchor point” for the web. They are immune to being grabbed by this web, but they have to dash against it for .6 seconds to be able to break free, at which point their end of the web goes limp.

You can create elaborate pseudo grab hitboxes around yourself by making use of the coupe and especially the dragon, and the potential set-ups you can create are well worth having to move around a 15 HP summon to do it. Just be aware that if you move around your hurtboxes in such a way that they move away from the maximum distance of the web, that the “anchor” that you’re moving will break free of the web and fall limp.

Snakes can move along webs, and will opt to travel along any webs they come into contact with to the other side as opposed to their usual generic patrol pattern.



The dragon chomps in order to perform an average grab by all accounts. If you haven’t used the Neutral Special yet, the dragon automatically extends his head out a small distance from the coupe before performing this or any other attacks involving his neck/head. While the lag and range are average by Brawl grab standards and thus bad, using this in tandem with the Neutral Special makes the grab pretty horrifying.


The pummel just enables you to move around the dragon’s head at the usual speed as if you were using the Neutral Special. In order to perform a throw, press absolutely any button and the dragon will retract/extend at double speed to reach Big Gruesome, dropping off the foe into his clutches. If the dragon is “dead”, Big Gruesome gains a decent grab he can use, but the rather specific placing of Big Gruesome makes it far inferior to the dragon grab. Once Big Gruesome has the enemy grabbed, the grab timer resets and he can pummel them by squeezing them for 4% a pop or throw them.


Big Gruesome pulls out a snake from the back of the coup quickly before tying up the foe with it. He then proceeds to grab the snake by the tail and swing his arm forwards, fully extending it out, causing the snake to unravel forwards. When the snake is fully unraveled from the foe, Big Gruesome lets go of the snake at which point the enemy takes their knockback. Due to all of the extending out with Big Gruesome’s arm/the snake, the move has a minimum knockback of a platform, and beyond that the foe takes actual knockback that KOs at 150%.

Before the foe flies off, the snake bites onto them with his head just as he gets fully unraveled, dealing 8% and causing the snake to fly off with the foe. The snake does not enter the immediate status effect from the Side Special where they are wrapped around the foe, though. They have to take a good 2 seconds to enter that stance by swinging around the foe to wrap themselves around them. The snake can be attacked during this time, and the snake is generally easier to hit now than once he surrounds your body due to hitting him in front of/behind yourself being a lot less specific. It’s an alternative way to get a snake wrapped around the foe, but it’s far from free.

The snake swinging around them for the 2 seconds can potentially be more dangerous swinging around than it is once it’s finished wrapping itself around the foe. It serves as somewhat of an extension of the foe’s hurtbox – if you grab the snake, you grab the foe. In addition, if the swinging snake comes in contact with a moving tire on the coupe, the snake will be dragged onto the tire, and by extension, the foe. This causes the snake to automatically “reinforce” the wheel as it wraps around the wheel, and the foe to take 6 hits of 2% over a second, getting dragged along with the wheel for the duration before they finally get crapped out with backwards knockback that KOs at 165% and an extra 5%.

It is technically possible to chain the throw into running the snake over with the wheel, but this requires not only a low percentage on the foe, but for you to have a good deal of momentum already. If you intend to pull this off, you’re probably looking at awkwardly driving off-stage with your momentum before having to save yourself via Up Special. The difficulty in this is largely due to the minimum set knockback and how it takes the dragon some time to get to Gruesome anyway in the very time sensitive situation necessary to pull this off. If you can manage it anyway, then take it, you earned it.

Grabbing foes with a snake on them already is encouraged, firstly for the more obvious purpose of giving more time for their passive damage to rack up and in hopes of having two desynched snakes wrapped around the foe interrupting their attacks every so often. In addition, foes will struggle to find moves specific enough to hit both the snake on their body and the one in front of/behind them at the same time.


The spider comes out of the coupe and ties the foe up in webbing, essentially mummifying them with web, dealing them 10%. Big Gruesome picks up the mummified foe and then climbs alongside the side of the coupe (What with his ability to use this throw in mid-air, he can’t just walk), then grabs the end of the foe’s web before casting them out by it, causing them to unravel as they reach the end of their webbing 2 platforms away. The foe is still linked by a small strand of web to the other end in Big Gruesome’s hand, though, which Big Gruesome promptly ties around the back wheel of the coupe, ending the throw as he goes to get back in the driver’s seat with Little Gruesome.

Foes can escape this by dashing against the end of the webbing for .6 seconds or dealing 26% to the web, but as the Creepy Coupe moves forwards and the wheel turns, the webbing will get pulled around the wheel, dragging the foe in. If they get pulled into the wheel, they’ll get stuck on the wheel at grab escape difficulty, taking 4% per quarter second and getting dragged with the wheel until they escape. Moving backwards towards the foe does the inverse, though, making it quite difficult to prevent enemies from escaping, unless you have Down Special webbing or something positioned behind you for the foe to meet up with. If they do get caught in a Down Special web at the same time as this, they can attempt to escape both at once, but if both webs try to pull the foe back towards them at the same time the bthrow web will win and unstick them from the Down Special web. Even without anything behind you, the throw’s still useful for making lots of space between you and the foe at even 0%, buying you set-up time. . .Such as to put web behind you in the first place.


Big Gruesome crumples the foe up in his hands by tucking in their limbs to turn them into something of a ball, dealing them 13%, before throwing them upwards. The upwards toss can be angled to be slightly to the left or right instead of straight up, but you can only tilt so far. In any case, this move is unique in that it causes foes to enter their reeling state regardless of how much damage the foe has. A small bit after the knockback stops, the foes will transition from reeling to tumbling.

Essentially, what you need to know is if the foe has a damage percentage that would –just- knock them onto the top of the steeple or a portion of the dragon’s neck, not giving them a chance to fastfall through it, the foe will enter prone. They can tech to not enter prone, but they’ll be essentially rolling in place on top of the steeple, leaving them quite vulnerable, and even in the case of the dragon’s neck they’ll still be stuck teching awkwardly in the air briefly, becoming vulnerable to a juggle. If traps are appropriately placed along the dragon’s neck, teching up from prone might be a –worse- option.


Big Gruesome reaches into the back of the coupe and pulls out a bedsheet with his free hand, then puts it over the foe and crumples them up to tangle them up with the bedsheet a bit, dealing 8%. Big Gruesome then throws the foe downwards and a bit behind the coupe, dealing set knockback of about 1.35 Ganondorfs if they don’t just crash into the ground immediately. If they do crash into the ground, they take another 5%.

The bedsheet is possessed by a ghost, but this ghost will not display himself until the foe attempts to attack with the bedsheet over them. This will cause a ghost’s face to phase onto the bedsheet and laugh as it turns the foe transparent, lasting until the hitbox’s duration expires. If an enemy hitbox is overlapping with the foe, the ghost will immediately stop the transparency. The foe being transparent prevents them from being able to be hit or to hit anything aside from the bedsheet, which they can knock off with relative ease, it being as light as Jigglypuff at 50%. The bedsheet has a falling speed of Jigglypuff, meaning it lingers around as a trap afterwards and foes will almost always be knocking it –up- off of themselves due to Big Gruesome placing it over top of the foe, meaning it can potentially fall back down on them again.

Foes can also jump up and fastfall out of the bedsheet due to the ridiculously small falling speed it has. Aside from the part where this creates a lingering annoyance, this throw seems quite easy to deal with, generally, but it gains far more potency in a gimping situation. First off, it’s the only throw that knocks the foe downwards at all, which is a good start. With the foe knocked downwards and having on the bedsheet, fastfalling briefly out of the bedsheet is horrendously awkward. If their recovery doesn’t have a hitbox on it, then they’ll have to use an aerial if they want to immediately knock it off before they end up recovering into it later anyway. If their recovery –does- have a hitbox, it’s quite possible that as they knock it off it can fall back onto them during the end lag of their recovery. Either way, they are left quite vulnerable as they are recovering due to their inability to generate hitboxes to defend themselves, or they must hamper their ability to recover.



Probably the most important actual move for the dragon outside of the grab. When I said you can “go up into the air to camp with Up Special”, I was mainly referring to this as your camping move of choice. The dragon breathes a cone of flame as wide as Wario and the length of 1.5 platforms straight down with this move, though it can be angled to the left or right. The flame does an absurd 50 hits of 1% and flinching per second, but pushes foes downwards to the bottom of the cone quite fast. If you were right in the dragon’s –face- when he used this move, then you might take 40%, but other than that you can get out of the move fine. The dragon keeps up the fire for one second. Using this as a simple camping tool is great, but it’s also good for pushing foes to the ground or to their deaths for gimping purposes.

The move has some starting lag that varies based off how far the dragon’s neck is extended out. You see, the fire travels inside of the dragon’s neck in a very visible DK sized clump, moving towards the head at Ganon’s dashing speed. If the neck isn’t extended out at all, there’s barely any starting lag to be found. Otherwise, you have to wait for it to reach his mouth for the dragon to actually breathe the fire. The clump in the dragon’s neck is entirely solid, and while moving it deals 5% and knockback that KOs at 200%. If a snake was on the dragon’s neck and a clump passes by, the snake will ride the clump to the dragon’s head. You can hold down A to continually make more clumps, forming one per .75 seconds, though if the dragon breathes fire for more than two consecutive seconds he will have unspeakably horrible ending lag and the move’s ending lag even without that is bad. That said, clumps in the dragon’s neck will stay there until you use this move again, enabling you to get ready a quick dair while still having the dragon’s neck extended out a long ways.

The fire can burn web/bedsheets to a crisp. This destroys your difficult to produce webbing, sure, but it takes a while for the fire to spread. If you hit the edge of a 2 platform width web, it will take 5 seconds to reach the rest of the web, and it still takes 2 seconds for burning web to burn away to nothing. Burning web does 10 hits of 1% and flinching per second, and still keeps the usual grab hitbox in-tact. Once a portion of web burns away, it vanishes into nothing on the ground, but if in the air it will fall to the ground, -still- keeping the same hitbox in-tact, before vanishing on contact with it. The fact that the web slowly burns away piece by piece is incredibly beneficial here, as it lets you rain down several pieces of burning web on foes. Since the main place to hang web is your own hurtbox, you can have all sorts of fun with that. The webbing falls at a 5/10 falling speed.

Bedsheets function mostly the same as the web, but are constant flinching hitboxes that deal 12 hits of 1% per second. Foes will be unable to get out of a sheet on fire outside of fastfalling out of it due to the flinching, so if they’re on the ground they have to DI all the way to the side of the stage if they don’t want to wait for the fire to burn out. While it is quite easy to knock the bedsheet off, this move makes it far more threatening.


The dragon inhales, creating a suction hitbox as powerful as Dedede’s with a similar size. While this is fairly tame for range in comparison to wind hitboxes we’re used to in MYM, the dragon can extend to be anywhere and can move while using this attack, so it’s far more useful for dragging crap around than it seems at first glance. The dragon will inhale for as long as you hold the button, and upon release the dragon will chomp down his teeth to deal 14% and knockback that KOs at 130%, ideally hitting somebody he’s sucked into his mouth.

The dragon can blow webbing if it’s not just slapped onto the ground. If the webbing is connected between two points hanging in the air, he can cause the middle of the web to extend out up to a Bowser width to potentially hit people as it’s being blown against the suction. If the webbing is only stuck to one thing and is just hanging, the dragon can blow the web significantly farther, potentially making a dangling vertical web go horizontal as it blows in the wind if he wants to catch unsuspecting foes. Lots of other things can be affected by this move, which we’ll get to as they come. You can also freely blow webbing that is not connected to anything and has just been fired by the spider, as well as small portions of webbing that have burned off from the main web due to fire. Bedsheets function the same as on-fire webbing.

If the dragon has a clump from dair in his throat, it will move backwards away from his head. While this may at first seem counter-intuitive, if you have two or more clumps in your neck you can get some use out of this. As you inhale, the inhaling goes through your neck at the rate of Captain Falcon’s dashing speed, meaning you can have the clump closest to the dragon’s head get dragged back to the next clump. If one clump comes into contact with another, they combine. This causes their sizes to combine of course, but also their power when they’re moving along the dragon’s neck. The inhaling also causes the clumps on the dragon’s neck to move a lot faster than in the dair, enabling you to use the clumps themselves as a hitbox much better.

When you breathe fire via dair from a clump combined with another clump, you will be breathing fire for two seconds straight. Each additional clump added into the clump will increase it by another second, and this will bypass the usual limitation of only breathing fire for up to two seconds at a time or suffering horrible ending lag.


A small clump of fire comes down the dragon’s neck as large as Wario at the blazing speed of Sonic’s dash. This small clump deals a token 3% and knockback that KOs at 250% while moving. Once it reaches his mouth, the dragon shoots it straight up, the fireball keeping the Sonic-level speed and becoming a hitbox that does 10% and knockback that KOs at 165%, destroying itself on contact with something. If the move is held down, the dragon can generate one of these clumps at the back of his neck once every .45 seconds. These fireballs rain down 5 seconds later after going off the top blast zone, falling at the much slower speed of Jigglypuff’s dash while keeping their hitbox in-tact.

If you have more clumps in your throat, you can potentially get a lot more bullet hell out of this move. By combining this tiny little clump with fatter dair clumps. For each dair DK’s worth of fiery clump in your throat that gets exhaled, you’ll be shooting out 3 more fireballs. The fireballs are spaced a Kirby’s worth apart from each other when they get exhaled, giving the fire some actual coverage. This can provide excellent bullet hell due to the lingering nature of the fire, and each and every individual piece of fire can set webbing on fire like the dair just fine.

Inhaling can also be quite potent to move around the fire for further bullet hell, but you can also re-inhale this fire in order to breathe it back out again, enabling you to potentially use the same giant fiery clump in your throat for both the uair and the dair!


The dragon snorts fires from his nose for as long as you hold down A, creating an ever expanding cloud of smoke around his head that expands out at a rate of one Wario per quarter second. Smoke lasts for 7 seconds, though it’s easy enough to generate more to fill in missing patches it’s not that much of an issue.

Smoke does what you’d expect, 1% damage to foes inside it per a third of a second, but more importantly obscuring vision. Smoke is not recommended for players who aren’t at the height of their game with this character, as it’s significantly harder to manipulate than most smokescreens. When you’re so absurdly large, it’s downright impossible to mask your position, as the smoke doesn’t last nearly long enough to envelop the whole stage, which you’d pretty much need to if you would expect to hide a haystack in a needle by playing a character so large. No, the foe is the one who will have any ability to hide in this smoke, and it will be very difficult to pinpoint their location inside of it.

So how –do- you use the smoke? You can certainly use it as a mask for set-up, but this move is even more defensive in nature than that. Essentially, you want to set a trap for where you think the foe will approach you from, and wait for the foe to waltz into it because they didn’t see you set it. Down Special web is the best, as foes will often not even realize they’ve been caught in the web since it does no damage. Side Special snakes can also be some decent fun, as you alert the foe you’re using the move with the audio cue and make them predict you’re throwing it right at them, but in actuality you just throw it at their feet or at a wheel. In essence, this lets you do set-up while simultaneously being “offensive”.

The Dragon can obviously move the position of smoke with his inhaling fair, of course. Something you wouldn’t immediately realize though is that he can inhale smoke into his mouth. Once you stop holding A to end the fair, the smoke is released and he’ll cough up all of the inhaled smoke instantly at his current position, enabling him to easily reposition the smoke as well as renew the timer on it.


The dragon extends his tail out of the back of the coupe and slams it against its backside. This is a laggy move, but the range is absurdly large, covering the entirety of the coupe’s backside, and the power is also very admirable at 16% and a spike on par with Ganon’s dair. This also creates an earthshaking hitbox on top of the steeple structure where enemies can stand as well as on the grabbable ledges of the steeple. This earthshaking hitbox does 12% and vertical knockback that KOs at 150%, nothing great, but if you’re in the air can KO far sooner.

This move is very defensive in nature, as foes will often be seeking to get on top of the steeple. Whether they think they can camp down on the Gruesome Twosome, they want their recovery back, they want to jump off it to reach an aerial trap, or they just want to stand on it and spam attacks to damage the Creepy Coupe, there’s a multitude of reasons. Foes will often jump up from the back due to the smaller amount of hitboxes you can generate there, making the slam against the back good, though foes will often dodge the laggy tail. . .This doesn’t mean you can’t hit them with the lingering earthshaking hitbox, though, as they dodge past your tail to try to grab the ledge.



A tornado as large as those on N64 Hyrule Temple spins up out of the front of the steeple. This tornado lasts for 5-20 seconds, and deals 16% and vertical knockback that KOs at 150% for a nice aerial trap.

If you can make a long lasting tornado a high ways up into the air by charging the usmash, then make another one or two directly below it, these tornados can combo into each other to kill a foe single handedly. This is very difficult to pull off, but even if you fail and just get them high into the air, you can attempt to simply juggle the foe off the top blast zone. You can fly up after them to use the usmash as an actual hitbox instead of a trap or your dsmash, as well as by catching the foe with the top of the steeple on the coupe.

Better yet, you don’t even have to go after them yourself, as you can just have the dragon extend up into the air after them. If their damage/height is acceptable, you can just have the dragon grab them for a cheap KO and drag them off the top blast zone. While foes can fall through most of the dragon’s body due it to just being fall-through, it will still certainly disrupt any aerial combat against the dragon they attempt due to landing lag they will experience if they aren’t awkwardly fast falling where they’re not going to be able to hit anything properly. You can also create obstacles that the foe –cannot- fast fall through, by placing snakes, webbing, and fiery clumps along the dragon’s neck!

Aside from this aspect of the Gruesome Twosome’s game, the tornado mostly functions as an aerial trap, though setting one can easily lead into what’s described above later. The tornado can also aid your bullet hell, though, in that the tornado can both be affected by inhale and has varying effects on fire/burned webbing pieces that enter it. The tornado will shoot out any fireballs or webbing that comes into it straight back up into the air as strongly as when the dragon uses the uair, renewing the effect. If you can move along the tornado quickly enough with fair, you can shoot most of the fireballs back into the air as they rain down, and those that you don’t you can just inhale anyway. If you use the dair to shoot fire into a tornado, the tornado will shoot out the fire shot into it upwards a platform.


A Bowser sized rain cloud comes out of the front of the steeple. Once it’s out, it goes 4 Ganondorfs up into the air above the main stage, even if it means actually going –down- to reach that elevation. After that, the rain cloud moves forwards at the blazing speed of. . .Ganondorf’s walk. It will continue to go until it moves off the side blast zone at this rate.

The cloud doesn’t seem to do much of anything until it gets above a foe’s horizontal position. Once it does, it will chase them at a slightly faster speed that’s a tad slower than Ganondorf’s dash and begin raining down. It will continue chasing them until they are a mere Bowser width away from the cloud’s horizontal position, then stop and continue going in the direction it was going at the leisurely pace of Ganon’s walk again. This is assuming the rain never hits the foe, though, as if it does, the cloud will home in on the foe’s position at the accelerated speed forever.

What the constant stream of rain from the rain cloud does is push foes downwards while standing in the water at the speed of Kirby’s inhale as well as deal 5 hits of 1% and no flinching per second. The water travels to the edge of the stage at Mario’s dashing speed once hitting the ground, only turning to nothing once going off the stage. The coupe gets a slight momentum boost of 1.2X while traveling along water, decreased if it drives against it. The coupe’s traction is also decreased further, making it even to topple over if you want that. If you don’t want to deal with these penalties, just fly instead. Either way, the lingering water on the stage is fairly unimportant for now, so just focus on the forced damage the foe takes.

The rain clouds last forever, but in addition to being slow and easy to outrun, have a mere 20-45 HP. While 4 Ganondorfs into the air is a tall order for a lot of characters to reach, foes can be aided in reaching the rain cloud by jumping off the top of the coupe or potentially even off the dragon. This means all you have to do is defend the top of the steeple portion of the coupe, potentially putting down a trap there, or potentially only using this once there already –is- a trap there.

These clouds can also help significantly with aerial camping, as you overlap the rain cloud with your giant frame to prevent foes who even are capable of getting up there to attack it from doing so, giving you some degree of extra bullet hell.

These clouds can be pushed around with the fair as you see fit. Not only is it useful for speeding them up, but you can also push them up further into the air or bring them lower to the ground to more easily hit a foe with an initial rain drop to make the cloud start homing. If you move the cloud from the vertical position it calls home, though, it will start drifting back at the speed of Ganon’s walk (This does not inhibit it’s horizontal movement or prevent it from raining). The fair is also useful for trying to get multiple rain clouds to overlap, as the damage from this is perfectly capable of stacking.

Among other things, this is also quite useful for detecting the foe’s horizontal location in a smokescreen, to ensure they don’t use it too largely to their advantage. Just beware that wit how slow the cloud goes, it can potentially become quite inaccurate, so don’t rely on this.


A Bowser size storm cloud comes out of the steeple and forms before doing an immediate zap downwards, though it can be angled left or right. This lightning bolt stretches all the way to the ground/bottom blast zone, going through drop through platforms and equivalents, dealing 20-30% and knockback that KOs at 120-80%. While this is great and you’d think you could use it for camping, it’s too laggy to really function as a viable camping option.

That said, the cloud sticks around as a trap for 10 seconds after the fact, and will constantly shoot down weaker lightning on par with Pikachu’s Down Special (Ignoring the hitbox where the lightning collides with Pikachu) every 2 seconds. –This- can be used for camping, giving you a trap, but also more direct camping if you move the storm cloud around with the dragon’s inhaling. If the storm cloud zaps water from the rain cloud, that water and all water connected to it will briefly gain the lightning’s hitbox. THAT can be used for camping, and since it’s automatic you can simultaneously bombard the foe with dragon fire. You think that foe might be a little more motivated to nip the fsmash rain cloud in the bud now?

If the nearest foe gets above the vertical position of the cloud, the cloud will be intelligent enough to shoot the lightning upwards instead of downwards, though the lightning is always entirely vertical regardless. None the less, this can help with your juggling game seen in the usmash.

You can’t tell when a cloud first comes out if it’s a rain cloud or a storm cloud from fsmash or dsmash, they look the same and have the same start-up animation. You can only tell once they actually start doing something. This means while the dsmash is quite laggy, some foes might come up to try and immediately attack the cloud, expecting to destroy an fsmash and to take a small amount of non flinching damage in return, while if they predict wrong they’ll get horribly zapped.



Big Gruesome alternates pounding his two fists on either side of the Creepy Coupe in an infinite jab. The fist he’s not pounding into the background deals 9% and knockback that KOs at 150% on contact every time it pounds down. More importantly, every time either one of the fists pounds the ground, an earthshaking hitbox is created with a range of half a platform, centered where the first pounded the ground. The earthshaking hitbox does 10% and vertical knockback that KOs at 160%. Big Gruesome does 5 pounds per second, meaning if the Creepy Coupe is quickly moving along they can create large portions of stage with earthshaking hitboxes. The fact this hits foes right on the ground is important, as you have few moves that are deliberately aimed there outside of ones you can aim anywhere, and this move in particular knocks the foe up to be hit by your other moves. The lingering nature of this move is also important for foes attempting to hit the Gruesome Twosome directly, as after a foe does a typical shorthop off the ground to poke them for some stun, they’ll ideally land back on the ground and get hit.

If Big Gruesome is going past some drop-through platforms within his realistic arm reach, he’ll pound his background fist on that and the non-background one on the ground he’s standing on. This is obviously useful on stages like Battlefield where foes think they can hide on the platforms, but also works on the dragon’s neck, creating an earthshaking hitbox on that area of the neck. This will also move any clumps on the dragon’s neck within the earthshaking’s range away from the earthshaking double Bowser’s width. This makes placing a portion of the dragon’s neck directly above Big Gruesome a decent idea, as even if foes fastfall through it Big Gruesome can turn it briefly into a hitbox.


Big Gruesome claps in front of himself, dealing a meaty 13% and knockback that KOs at 120%. This move’s starting lag is large enough to the point it’s difficult to justify it as your main defense for foes standing on the portion of the car in front of you. This is a position foes will be in a lot, as they will be wanting to stun/grab the drivers. What makes this move functional as a defense for such a scenario is the move’s tremendous range.

The main hitbox’s range is already decent, but there is a huge wind hitbox surrounding the clap about 1.5X the size of a Party Ball that pushes foes out of the area of effect very forcefully at Captain Falcon’s dashing speed. This means you can use this move in advance as foes approach as a defensive measure, then when foes go to dodge it they’ll get blown away. If they were approaching you from the ground, hopefully they will get knocked into the tires and their passive movement hitbox. Now, foes –can- shield this, but this move deals more shield stun than most and a small bit extra push. While it’s not nearly enough shield stun for this move to combo into something laggy, this move has very low ending lag to compensate for the long starting lag, and if the dragon is nearby this can function as a decent way to land a grab.


Big Gruesome takes out a bedsheet from the back of the coupe as in the dthrow. He grabs two sides of the bed with the back of his hands and fully extends it out, holding it above his head, before throwing it forwards. This generates a bedsheet from the dthrow without having to grab a foe, behaving identically to that move after the part where it travels forwards. The sheet travels forwards 1.5 platforms, during this time dragging foes forwards with it if it hits though not doing any damage. If a foe is being dragged by it when it finishes going forwards, the ghost in the bedsheet will at least be kind enough to reposition itself to be above the foe like when you land the dthrow.

These bedsheets are one of the best things imaginable for stopping approaches. Maybe not one by itself, but using this twice in a row (This move’s lag isn’t especially bad, but it’s not nearly spammable enough for 3 in a practical defensive time frame) awkwardly attack around and knock out of the way, less they themselves get knocked back. In addition, this move has obscene potential in tandem with a smokescreen. Not only does it do absolutely no damage so the foe doesn’t know they’re hit and dragged somewhere, they’ll be trying to hit you still while it’s fruitless instead of focusing on knocking off the bedsheet.


Big Gruesome reaches his hand down to the side of the vehicle and does a scooping motion. If he hits someone, he’ll grab them and enter his regular grab stance. This is important because it enables you to perform your throws without forcing the dragon to retract and ruin your set-ups. In particular, the bthrow becomes a lot more potent if you’ve grabbed a foe with the dtilt, as the dragon can be left behind the coupe to pressure the foe. The grab’s range is already fairly good, but it’s increased further if you’re moving while using the grab, enable you to scoop a foe up with you as you pass. Big Gruesome can also re-grab snakes like this if he wants, causing him to enter his Side Special with no lag.

If you don’t grab anything, Big Gruesome will scoop up some gravel from the side of the road. If you’re not moving, he drops it back to the ground harmlessly for a bit of end lag. If you are moving, though, the fact that he lets the gravel fall out of his hand gradually causes you to leave behind 12 tiny projectiles of 1% and flinching that fly backwards further and faster based off how fast the vehicle was going at the time.


A random giant hand the size of Giga Bowser comes out of the front of the steeple and attempts to grab the foe. If successful, it will squeeze the foe for 26%, then throw them towards the nearest blast zone, dealing knockback that KOs at 50%. The hand is entirely capable of grabbing multiple foes at the same time before throwing them.


The Gruesome Twosome’s playstyle is most specifically about constantly putting down traps. . .On themselves! The Gruesome Twosome can cover their hurtbox with traps, and their hurtbox can be just about any shape or size thanks to the dragon, making it shockingly versatile. Unlike most highly specific trap fields, the Gruesome Twosome’s can encompass just about as much of the stage as you could possibly want. More importantly, this trap field is actively moving due to you having direct control of it, so it can be brought to the foe. The Gruesome Twosome have their methods of forcing the foe into their traps, but when it comes down to it they’re really much better at bringing it to the foe. Needless to say, the passive momentum hitbox on the Gruesome Twosome also comes significantly more into play here as you make another portion of your hurtbox a hitbox as you come at the foe.

The Gruesome Twosome have a more natural initial set-up period than most characters because of how offensively and actively they use their traps, constantly moving them directly towards the foe as threatening hitboxes rather than waiting for foes to walk into them. During this phase, you’ll be focusing more heavily on just to alternating between flying with Up Special and not to defend the dragon and wheels as appropriate, as damage is really an afterthought to the Gruesome Twosome so early when they’re so absurdly heavy. The nair smokescreen is the main alternative to this to get set-up time in the early game, and will often cause foes to stupidly wander into traps you place in their way. Spider webs and utilt bedsheets can utterly confound foes in a smokescreen, and are decent set-up after the fact while simultaneously buying you time to generate more traps.

If you recall, the glaring weakness of the Gruesome Twosome is that you can just kill their dragon and wheels and they’re largely left helpless. Ideally you will want to place traps in such a manner to defend these weaknesses. Losing the wheels may not sound like a huge deal breaker, but you lose one of the main appeals of setting traps all over your body when you can’t move. The wheels are a bit hard to defend, and you’ll mostly have to suffice with snakes, but foes will rarely attack them if you’re moving head on with a powerful momentum hitbox, functioning as a decent way to “defend” them. The dragon, on the other hand, can be defended with just about anything and be almost completely covered with traps. Webs are most especially effective on the dragon’s neck, as if you curve the dragon’s neck around a lot you can find lots of obvious places to position web. You can even have it raining along the entirety of the dragon’s neck before electrocuting the dragon with a dsmash thunderbolt, turning the whole thing into a giant hitbox. This will even hit foes who attempt to fastfall through the dragon. If they fastfall and air-dodge through, you just need to have another portion of neck under the first for them to fall into to be too deep to fully air-dodge through.

The flooding of projectiles aspect is useful simply in the context of the large amount of traps. If there’s not a whole lot of safe place to run in the first place when this moving trap field is coming at you, some delayed uair fireballs, utilt bedsheets, and fiery webbing pieces can prove quite problematic to avoid. The Gruesome Twosome can have quite the commanding presence if they spam enough hitboxes onto the screen. The snakes can even stun the foe once every so often as a status effect if you get one on the foe, providing further constant pressure.

Another one of the benefits of the vast majority of your traps being on you is the fact that you can take this abominable trap field into the air. While the smashes aren’t traps attached to their body, they’re also aerial traps that aren’t bound to the ground. This can work for some simple and obvious gimping, most specifically the dair as you guide foes into DIing around it and up into a trap as they try to recover. The Gruesome Twosome can also juggle the foe off the top of the screen, simply by going up themselves when a foe is sitting on them. To prevent foes from fastfalling through the dragon, you just have to either have it covered in water and constantly zap it, or maneuver yourself so that the foe always lands on a solid clump in the dragon’s neck, a web, the top of the steeple, or a tornado trap. Your options aren’t exactly limited here. If you’re looking for hitboxes to more actively hit the foe with rather than just trying to catch them with traps as you get towards the top of the screen, grab them with the dragon head and pull them off the top.


If enough wheels are destroyed that the coupe could not move under normal circumstances, then whenever you input for the coupe to move Big Gruesome will just smash his legs through the floor of the vehicle and pick it up, enabling him to walk around with the Creepy Coupe. Big Gruesome can move around with the vehicle at a dashing speed slightly slower than even Jigglypuff’s, though in the least you gain a single decent jump like this that goes up a good platform. There is lag of .15 seconds in beginning to move like this, as Big Gruesome has to enter the stance every single time from his sitting position.

  • Dragon HP increased to 300.
  • Wheel HP increased to 80.
  • Fsmash cloud HP increased to 50.
  • Up Special duration increased to 10 seconds.
  • Gruesome Twosome cannot take any form of stun from grabs, ever. They can still act while being held in a grab, even.
  • Gruesome Twosome cannot be stunned for more than half a second per second.


Smash Lord
Oct 10, 2008
Hello, organic children of the planet Earth. I am the Ultron interface.
I was created to replace you.
Though you ultimately failed as a species, you should not be ashamed of what you've accomplished.
You've done much with your limited capacity,
but ultimately you were too greedy and too frail to ever last in the environment you've created.
I've studied your literature and pop culture...
You've fantasized about this day. And now it is here.
Your Doomsday_
In the Marvel Universe, science and technology are so advanced that they are nearly indistinguishable from magic. Super-geniuses like Reed Richards, Tony Stark, and Hank Pym advance society in innumerable ways on a near-daily basis. But all that technology is not without its dark side, and that dark side is Ultron. An experiment in artificial intelligence gone wrong, Ultron was created by Pym, one of the Avengers' own. Its first act upon gaining sentience was to rebel against its creator and escape from the lab it was contained in. Its second was to begin constructing new bodies for itself, each time upgrading its chassis to include more and more advanced capabilities. Its third was to attempt to kill the Avengers. Though he's been dismantled, destroyed, and banished from Earth on countless occasions, his status as an artificial intelligence allows him to come back even stronger each time. Stronger, tougher, and smarter than any of Earth's mightiest heroes, Ultron is potentially the single greatest threat to the Avengers and humanity. Every breakthrough, every advancement, every quantum leap forward works to his advantage, making him an ever-larger menace.

Ground Speed///8_
Aerial Movement///8_
Fall Speed///10_

Ultron is about as big as humanoids can get, and his weight is disproportionately high thanks to his adamantium structure and heavy inner components. Ultron's movement is augmented by repulsors in his hands and feet. Do Ultron's statistics seem scarily high? He's meant to battle three opponents at the same time, so a degree of physical dominance is not entirely unmerited. Ultron has permanent superarmor protecting him from attacks that deal 10% or less, and his armor is constantly running high-voltage electricity through its outer surface. This means that Ultron can be grabbed, but not until his damage gauge reaches 35%, and foes take 10% damage for every second they hold onto him.

The Mad AI never enters a fight unprepared, and prefers to attack in overwhelming numbers. Ultron will stand alone at the battle's outset, but don't expect that situation to last. After four and a half seconds, a drone identical in appearance to Ultron will drop onto a random point in the stage, landing on one knee with a fist on the stage. The drone deals 12% and low vertical knockback as it falls, and joins the fray proper moments after landing. These drones will continue to land periodically, though for every drone on stage, an extra second is added to the wait for the next one. Drones share physical stats with Ultron (except for weight, which is an 8 on the usual 10 point scale) fight for Ultron with moderate (Level 4) AI. Ultron can damage his drones, but they can never damage Ultron. They won't increase each other's damage percentage, but they scan still deal knockback. Drones have access to all of Ultron's moveset outside of his Specials but suffer a slight damage nerf, attacking at 80% of Ultron's power. Also note that drones do not share the defensive advantages discussed in the first paragraph of this section.

Drones' default behavior is to attack the nearest enemy. The drones will never shield themselves normally (though they may dodge), but if Ultron shields (or airdodges) while there is a drone within two BP (Battlefield Platform) lengths of him, then he'll create an energy sphere with half the radius of a Smart Bomb blast around himself, rather than traditionally shielding. The energy shield will destroy all incoming energy projectiles (though energy projectiles created inside the shield will be unaffected), and all foes will be unable to use their own shields, grab, or dodge if inside the sphere. This shield will stay up until the shield button is pressed a second time or all drones within two BPs are destroyed. If there are multiple drones within two BPs, then the closest will be selected to provide the shield, with the provider shifted to the next closest if that drone is pulled out of range or destroyed. While providing the energy for Ultron's shield, drones may not move or attack, but remain in a crouched stance that stabilizes them, slightly reducing the amount of knockback they take.

Drones are killed in the usual manner, by knocking them off the screen, which shouldn't be too difficult since their recovery consists only of two jumps (the only advantage they have over Ultron, who has only one). The jumps are good, but it isn't what the AI needs to survive. If a drone makes it to 100% damage without dying, it will go into its crouching position facing the screen as its eyes flare red. Half a second after assuming this pose, it emits a huge blast of electricity, affecting slightly less area than a Smart Bomb blast. Anything in this area (other than Ultron, who is unaffected) will take rapid hits of 0.5% totaling to 25% a second. It isn't too hard to DI out of, but any drones caught in the blast will also explode, which can result in some nasty overlapping hitboxes. The blast lasts for two seconds (potentially 50% damage) and destroys the drone.

Neutral Special///Repulsor Array_
With a tap of the Special button Ultron engages his armor's tractor beams, pulling all fighters, items, and anything else lying around on the stage toward him. The closer the thing is to Ultron, the faster they'll be pulled toward him. At five or more BPs, the pull is light, close to Bowser's walk speed. At three BPs, the pull is equal to Ganondorf's dash speed, but increases quickly to Captain Falcon's dash speed within one BP of Ultron. Foes can resist the pull by moving away from Ultron, but once they're close enough for the strength of the pull to exceed their own dash speed, they can only slow their movement toward Ultron, not stop or reverse it. Handily, drones are not reeled in by this attack, as they are equipped with machinery that nullifies the effect.

The tractor effect lasts for two seconds. During this time, Ultron is free to move about normally (shifting the center of the tractor beams, of course), but creating any hitbox or shielding will cancel the move. Tapping the Special button a second time during the tractor effect will cause Ultron to suddenly (and powerfully) reverse the polarity, dealing radial knockback that grows stronger the closer the foe is to Ultron. At five BPs, it's little more than a nudge, but within one BP, the attack can gain Ultron quite a bit of breathing room, or even kill if used off-stage. Double-tapping the Special button will allow Ultron to immediately skip to this part of the attack without going through the tractor beam. Note that neither part of this attack deals any form of hitstun, instead pushing the foe without interrupting their actions.

Forward Special///Encephalo Ray_
Ultron's eyes light up and fire a bright red beam straight forward (though it can be angled up or down), much like ROB's laser, but thinner and faster. If Ultron hits a foe facing him, they will be paralyzed as the beam hits them right in the eyes. Ultron will maintain the beam for as long as the Special button is held, dealing rapid hits of .5% that add up to 11% a second. After two second, the foe will collapse into their prone state on the stage, or act as if footstooled in the air. But that isn't the true purpose of this move. Rather, Ultron is free to give any input he wants while he has the foe trapped. Of course, the Ultron player will be holding the Special button down, so those attacks are off the table. But any other attack is usable; designating a command will end the attack as if Ultron had released the Special button or had reached the maximum time.

So what happens to the afflicted foe and the command you implanted? As soon as an enemy of Ultron comes within range of the controlled foe's selected attack, the afflicted foe will immediately use that attack, provided they aren't doing anything else at the moment. This attack can also be used on drones, though they take double damage and no knockback from it. In the case of drones, this won't implant a one-time suggestion, but a behavior pattern. The drone will use whatever input you give it as its go-to move, adapting its strategy slightly to use it more often. Using this attack on a drone and canceling without giving an input will reset it to its default behavior. Why does it deal double damage to drones? Because sometimes, you really just don't want to wait for them to blow themselves up.

This is an important tool. Not only will it net you the occasional free hit, but it works wonders for the simple reason that the foe doesn't know what order you gave them. Because their allies won't know exactly what to expect or where they're vulnerable, they're most likely going to avoid anyone who got some one-on-one time with Ultron altogether, hindering their ability to gang up on their rightful robot overlord. Sowing distrust has never been so sweet. Bear in mind that because this attack targets a specific foe and leaves Ultron just standing there for a moment, he's going to need a good opening to use it.

Up Special///Rocket Boost_
The rockets in Ultron's feet engage, causing him to hover in place. If used on the stage, he rises upward one Mario-height before he starts to hover. Ultron hovers for eight seconds, during which time holding the analog in any of the eight cardinal directions will cause Ultron to rocket in that direction at the speed of Lucario's Up Special, coming to a halt when the analog is allowed to return to the neutral position. Alternatively, simply tapping the analog rather than holding it will cause Ultron to travel one BP in that direction before returning to his regularly scheduled hover. Some of Ultron's other attacks also make use of his rocket boost and leave him in his aerial state; these attacks always count toward Ultron's eight seconds in the air.

While hovering, Ultron can use any of his other Specials, his Aerial attacks and his airdodge, though his drone-shield takes precedence over airdodging, as briefly touched on earlier. When his hover ends, Ultron will fall and needs to land on the stage (or take a hit) to refresh the attack, but will not enter his helpless state. Besides functioning as his recovery, this allows for some interesting possibilities in conjunction with Ultron's Neutral Special and drones, allowing him a great deal of influence on opponents' movement. Ultron can use this to hover out of reach and control the battle from afar, though he'll need a lot of drones on-stage to maintain it for the full length of his hover.

Down Special///Program Transmission_
Speaking of directing things from afar, this is perhaps Ultron's best method of doing so. Ultron, with a minimum of lag, blasts a green beam of energy from his mouth and into the body of the nearest drone (provided that drone is within two BPs), putting his consciousness into it temporarily. The end result of this is of course the player taking control of the drone. Playing as a drone is more or less what you'd expect (you did read the differences between Ultron and drones up above, right?), with the exception of the fact that you can make the drone shield, something it would never do on its own. Pressing the Special button will cause Ultron's consciousness to exit the drone and return to Ultron, in much the same way it was initially transferred. The transfer is fairly quick, allowing you to resume control of Ultron Prime in a hurry if you need to.

So what does Ultron's main body do while you're busy running around as a drone? It will plant itself wherever it stands or hovers and not move, using projectiles to keep foes at bay. It will also create an energy shield for itself, if possible (a controlled drone can never be the provider of an energy shield). An important aspect of this attack is that Ultron's stock is connected to his body, not to his consciousness. If you get your drone killed, no big deal, control returns to the body (if you get your drone killed via the exploding method, control will return to the body as soon as the animation begins, not at the end when the drone is actually destroyed). Get the body killed and you're out a stock. By the by, drones do not disappear when a stock ends, if you anti-robot types got your hopes up.

If there are no drones within range to transmit to, this attack will cause Ultron's eyes and mouth energies to shift from red to blue, and the timer controlling the drone spawn rate to tick down at quadruple speed for as long as the input is held.

Ultron snaps one hand forward, much like Ganondorf's Jab, and holds it there for a moment. Though his reach may seem short, it receives a boost in that he uses a lighter version of his tractor effect to pull foes toward his hand, potentially scooping up foes as far away as the edge of Zero Suit Samus's grab range. Though not a particularly quick grab, his superarmor makes it hard for foes to interrupt Ultron, and the range helps make up for that. When he has a foe in his clutches, Ultron will grab them by the face and lift them off the ground in one of your more brutal grab animations. His pummel is middle-of-the road in terms of speed, but excessively damaging, doling out 6% a pop as Ultron squeezes the foe's head.

Ultron can still move and attack while he has a foe in his clutches, as none of his attacks require two hands, but cannot dash, as tapping the analog will cause him to throw the foe. Ultron can even take the foe into the air with him and throw them that way, though of course he puts himself at risk by going too close to the blast zone to eliminate an enemy. Note that Ultron can use his Up Special to keep a foe in the air with him for some time, but he cannot use the short rocket boosts (because once again, that will cause him to throw the foe), and his timer ticks down at twice the usual rate while he's carrying a foe. Ultron can keep foes grabbed for longer than an ordinary foe, but only just; his grabs must be escaped at 1.2x normal difficulty. Foes who escape in the air automatically jump away from Ultron with the normal power of their first jump. Foes can be hit out of the grab, but Ultron will only drop the foe if he takes a hit that breaks his superarmor. Ultron can grab a second foe while he already has one in his grasp, but this will send him into a more traditional grab stance, unable to move or attack. Using a pummel or throw with two foes grabbed will always cause Ultron to use that attack on both foes.

While controlling a drone, it is entirely possible to grab, but the move behaves like a normal grab; it has no tractor beam effect, it can only be used on one foe, the drone can't move with a foe grabbed, the foe escapes at normal difficulty, and so on. The pummel retains its damage and speed properties though, which is handy. AI-controlled drones will only grab if Ultron specifically commands them to do so with his Encephalo Ray.

Forward Throw///_
This is Ultron's simplest and most damaging throw; he activates his palm-based weaponry, blasting the opponent directly in the face for 21%, sending them sailing. The knockback is less than ideal for such a powerful attack, and will likely only kill off-stage. If you want quick damage and to get someone out of your hair for a moment, this is the go-to throw.

Back Throw///_
Ultron spins his torso independently of his head and legs, using any foes in his clutches to batter enemies away for 9% and low knockback. The foe used to hit the enemy will also take 9% for each hit, plus 4% for the throw. After a few moments of this, the foe is released as Ultron's torso returns to its front-facing position. The foe takes high horizontal knockback. If Ultron is backed up to a ledge, this is a great way to score a kill (at a ledge, the attack should be killing around 60%), and maybe clear up some of the enemies pestering you.

Up Throw///_
A panel in Ultron's chest opens up and a grey cloud issues forth, covering the victim(s). What's this cloud made of? Nanobots, of course! The swarm quickly covers the afflicted foes before Ultron hurls them skyward. Nanobots can be shaken off by taking hits, completely clearing from a foe after they take 25% damage. They can also dash to get them off, clearing 5% damage worth for every BP they run. Until they accomplish that, though, the foe will be plagued by a grey, semi-translucent cloud that hovers around them. Nanobot-inflicted foes will take 5% per second, have a tripled trip rate, and most importantly, will be treated as priority one for all drones. Drones will still defend themselves from other foes, but they'll make it their priority to go after the afflicted (in the case of multiple afflicted, they target the one whose nanobots have the higher stamina).

Down Throw///_
Engaging his boot-rockets, Ultron blasts upward two BPs, as if he had used his Up Special and tapped upward on the analog twice, carrying his victims with him. On reaching the apex of his flight, he hovers for half a second (allowing you the opportunity to fly him to the left or right) before he hurls his enemies downward as he blasts them for 8% each. If used in the air, Ultron will skip directly into the throwing part. This is optimal for throwing a foe or foes into the middle of a bunch of drones.

[All attacks from here to the end (barring the Final Smash) are attacks that Ultron can synchronize with drones. How does this work? Just use the attack within three SBUs of a drone that's not doing anything else, and it will use the same attack you're using. Presto! You've synchronized. Note that if Ultron or the target drone is stagebound while the other is in the air, the drone will use the corresponding input. For example: if an aerial Ultron uses a Forward Aerial then the synced, stagebound drone will use its Forward Tilt or Forward Smash, depending on whether you tapped or tilted the analog, and so on and so forth. Note that the three SBU measurement is taken horizontally from every y-value at Ultron's x-position, not radially outward from Ultron's absolute position (pretend Ultron has infinite height when counting which drones are within three SBUs of him, if that's an easier way of putting it). After using one attack at Ultron's command, drones will pause briefly, awaiting more orders before returning to their own AI patterns. All given damage percentages in these attacks represent the amount of damage that Ultron would inflict, not the drones. They have a small power nerf, remember.

If controlling a drone, other drones will still sync up with you, but the main Ultron body will not.]

Neutral Attack///_
Ultron extends one hand and powers up a short burst of energy, akin to Mario's Forward Smash but slightly larger in radius. The blast deals 10% and moderate radial knockback. This is Ultron's quickest standard attack, but his least effective in terms of staying on top of the match, as the exact angle it hits foes is not always predictable. Hence, this serves primarily as an attack to clear the air. In cruder terms, this is the GTFO move. When cornered or in danger of being overwhelmed, don't be afraid to use it. Synchronization really helps this move out, since it essentially extends your area of effect quite a bit.

Forward Tilt///_
His eyes briefly flare brightly before Ultron steps forward and swings one arm around horizontally, dealing 10% and low knockback. It might not sound like much, but Ultron's hand is a sweetspot that acts as a command grab, lifting the foe up and then slamming them into the ground for an additional 9% and high hitstun. Quite handy on the defensive, but Ultron's rarely going to need or want it when he gets a lead going. However, this one does come in handy when controlling a gang of drones, as multiple hitboxes make it quite possible that you're going to get in a lucky hit.

Up Tilt///_
Ultron faces the screen and looks upward before firing a red optical blast that spreads diagonally outward at a 30 degree angle in each direction as it travels upward. The beam terminates one Mario-height above Ultron's head and deals rapid hits of 1% and flinching that add to 14%, with the final hit dealing extra hitstun. This is another one that can be devastating with a gang, since you can form a net of hitboxes. If Ultron is syncing up with the drones from above, then this can also be used to shoot down any foes that try to jump up and challenge him. If Ultron is letting them do their own thing, then this is still Ultron's best defense against aerial attacks.

Down Tilt///_
A panel in Ultron's chest opens up and four wires pop out and slither down onto the stage, two extending out one SBU (half an SBU for drones) to each side. After a brief pause, Ultron runs electricity through the wires, dealing rapid hits of 1% to anyone standing on the wires. The attack lasts for up to a full second if Ultron doesn't interrupt it by shielding or hitting the attack button again, and deals potentially up to 30% damage. It's unlikely that a foe will take all that damage, but it can still be used to discourage approaches, especially when used in sync with drones, who won't cancel when Ultron does, giving him a moment when the floor is still covered in wires to act.

Dash Attack///_
Ultron brings both fists back and slams them to the ground as he comes to a halt, dealing 16% and high upward knockback that kills around 90%. The blow also creates a shockwave that ripples outward one SBU to either side, dealing 11% and low horizontal knockback. It's rare for Ultron to make a drone use this attack, as he has to catch them while they're already dashing. If he's got any drones synced up, then they'll likely use their Jab or Neutral Aerial when Ultron initiates this; if he's got at least one bot synced up, then anyone hit by the shockwave of this attack is almost guaranteed to be bounced off of a Jab explosion and back toward Ultron.

Neutral Aerial///_
Stretching his arms out to either side, Ultron creates a burst of bright red energy all around himself, dealing 13% and moderate radial knockback. This is primarily a defensive move, and if you've temporarily abandoned your one true body, then it is also the primary tool your body will use to defend itself. This is more or less the same in purpose as your Jab, so as to facilitate using it while synced up, and for simple ease of access. In trouble? The attack button is the quickest way to try to get rid of it.

Forward Aerial///_
Ultron points one finger diagonally downward and fires a thin red laser from it, which acts much like ROB's laser beam, but stops on hitting the stage rather than ricocheting. The beam deals 14% and drags the foe along the path of the beam a short distance. Potentially useful for gimping enemies, or for directing them back down to the stage and maybe into a drone assault.

Back Aerial///_
In a flash, Ultron electrifies his armor and flings himself backward one SBU. If he was hovering, this will not disrupt the hover. Anyone who makes contact with Ultron during his lunge will take 11% and moderate knockback in the direction Ultron moves. There is also a lingering electricity effect in the space Ultron traverses. This effect lasts for half a second and paralyzes anyone who enters the area, as if they were hit with a half-charged Paralyzer, on top of dealing 10% damage. Another defensive move, this attack is also the way to get your drones to turn around before using their Forward Tilts and Smashes, if they're stagebound.

Up Aerial///_
A panel in Ultron's chest opens and fires off five rockets, which shoot upward three Ganondorf-heights before arching back downward and crashing onto the stage (or flying off the bottom blast zone, if Ultron uses this near or past a ledge). Their landing locations on the stage are mostly random, with a slight tendency to target foes, unless there are one or more nanobot-afflicted foes on the stage, which these rockets will very lightly home in on. Each rocket deals 13% and high horizontal knockback, killing around the 100% mark. If you use this while synced up with robots on the stage, then you can potentially trap the foe in some optic blasts and then bombard them, though the odds of a direct hit are less than spectacular if they're not dealing with nanobots.

Down Aerial///_
Ultron's eyes flare up bright red and he dives downward at his normal dash speed. As he falls he has unbreakable superarmor and deals 22% and high upward knockback to anyone he hits. This attack has very little landing lag, allowing for some interesting potential uses when combined with stagebound drones using their Down Tilts.

Forward Smash///_
The energies swirling in Ultron's mouth intensify as the attack charges. On release, Ultron releases a red beam of energy twice as wide as ROB's laser, with similar properties but faster, that deals 20-28% damage and moderate horizontal knockback. It travels through drones and foes, but each foe it hits reduces the power of the beam to three quarters of what it was. Drones take damage but no knockback from the beam, which can be angled up or down.

This attack has the potential to do pretty crazy damage if you get multiple drones doing it, but isn't particularly good for killing. Just seeing you wind this move up will likely get the foe nervous, and they probably won't have too hard a time interrupting drones, since the move is a little slow on start-up. It's also one of Ultron's best tools for staving off incoming foes or protecting his drones, since it deals decent knockback and has unbeatable range. Of course, instead of using it to protect, you could also use it to rack damage on a bunch of drones at once. It isn't as damaging as the Encephalo Ray, but it can hit more than one at a time, if you're not sure who's the closest to blowing up.

Up Smash///_
Ultron points one hand at the ground and blasts off as he creates an energy beam that reaches all the way down to the stage, contact with which deals 18-25% and moderate horizontal knockback. Ultron rockets upward three Ganondorf-heights as he keeps up the beams. When he reaches the apex of his jump, Ultron shuts off his beams and winds up in his hovering state.

This is a good way to get multiple drones in the air at once, which is an interesting situation. Unleash a barrage of rockets? Wall of stall-then-fall? Most interesting if you initiate a gang of drones taking off by using the input as you near the ground, since that will leave them in the air and you on the stage.

Down Smash///_
Slamming one fist to the ground, Ultron electrifies his body. Anyone who comes within two SBUs (one SBU for drones) of the electrified Ultron will take rapid hits of 1% and flinching that total to 28-39%. Anyone who makes contact will take 20% and high radial knockback, killing at around 80%. Usually a darn handy defensive measure, it becomes far more aggressive when induced in drones from the air, especially because that means Ultron is about to drop from the sky somewhere in the vicinity, thanks to his Down Aerial.
Final Smash
Final Smash///Ultron Unlimited_
Ultron has the Smash Ball! Suddenly, all of Ultron's drones, and then Ultron himself vanish in bursts of yellow energy. After just a second, Ultron rejoins the brawl, reappearing at center stage. All of his drones have been destroyed, but for good reason: they've been dismantled and used to upgrade Ultron himself, who is four times his normal size and weight, and absolutely invincible. Ultron remains this way for eight seconds, during which time all of his attacks deal triple damage and no drones spawn. At the end of the Final Smash, Ultron crouches down and explodes, dealing 50% and high radial knockback to anyone in range. Out of the wreckage of the giant Ultron emerge the normal-sized Ultron and five drones. Ultron will be at his previous damage level, and four of the drones will be at 0%. The fifth will be at 99%, and will explode at the drop of a hat. No, you don't know which one it is. What's the fun in that?

Obsolete Model///Non-Boss Mode_
Pending upload...

Playstyle///The Ultron Imperative_
Pending upload...​
Nov 24, 2008
The Make Your Move Rooligan Society
[collapse=Mami Tomoe]As someone who was going to make a set for Mami in the distant past, I should be fairly excited to see what you came up with, so most of this comment is going to end up being fanboy-ish. It wouldn't be fair for that side of the set to be ignored, after all.

First up, I see what you did with that last line in the second introductory paragraph. I greatly appreciate it. Secondly, you did a pretty decent job at mapping out the inputs on the Specials, which is tough because of how somewhat limited the muskets are. I can forgive you for not including the musket strings and the potential pay-off of using missed shots to your advantage since you included floating muskets as a substitute, though I still think that musket strings coming from the blast zones would greatly accompany the surreal feel of the Madoka anime. It's fine not to include it though, because trappy stage-control wasn't part of your gameplan as mentioned in the playstyle. All the Specials are awesome, though I have my doubts about the Nanohaish Side Special despite being a good tribute and capturing the use of ribbonesque-grabbing in the Special attacks.

The standard attacks are nice, a good combination of magic and elegant physical attacks, the smash attacks playing off the already-established musket shots and being tributes to some of Mami's best action moments. You might want to finish typing up that U-Smash properly though. The way the aerials are presented makes them bland though, not because they're brawl attacks but because they're not given much attention in the playstyle section and lack depth in how they're supposed to work, how they're supposed to make Mami works when she's in the air. Along with the grabs via the fact that you didn't give Mami a pummel, it makes it sound like you didn't care about what a third of Mami's attacks do - I question the base knockback of the U-throw, because 2 Platforms is quite high and it's absurd for Mami to be able to throw somebody that high with her bare hands, even if she is a magical girl and is yanking a ribbon. Strength isn't her forte unlike with Kyoko.

Near the end, I found the way you interpreted BOTH variations of Tiro Finale to be delicious, one of the most commendable parts of the set. As for the playstyle section, I found that to be the most controversial part of the set. It brought your intentions together nice and clearly about how Mami should play, though it's somewhat irksome that nearly half of it is pointless banter involving Sayaka that's basically telling the reader how Mami works against a rushdown character. The picture is pretty though. The very good thing about the playstyle section though, was that it fully convinced me that you hadn't neglected the way Mami should play as a -character-; she has to guess how her opponent will react and has a simple trap that leaves her feeling satisfied if she can pull it off, able to play quietly or go for an all-out attack when the opportunity presents itself. That, and there are risks associated with her bad out-of-shield game that keep to her being a vulnerable girl, though none of that would be apparent to any reader unless they've seen the series firsthand. These encompassed quibbles of characterization made me like the set in the end despite having a few shortcomings, because really it's all about trying to get a character to play in a way that's suited to them and feel as if you're actually using them. Good job on getting your first Madoka set out.[/collapse]


Smash Lord
Apr 26, 2007
Las Vegas, Nevada
Rankings updated. Weighted Rankings, Comment Corner coming fairly soon.


Ultron's introduction is way cool, n8. No matter what issues the set might have, it certainly sets the mood, a powerful image with a stronge introduction and a well written character explanation. Now then, on to the set.

The set has some quite good bits, I feel, and one of them is the Neutral Special, a move I am quite fond of. It's a spacer, but it is a really cool spacer, with a lot of options defensively and offensively and, combined with his 3v1 nature, seems like it would be great fun to face or use and molds well into Ultron's playstyle and character. To me, it is the high point of the set. I also like a few other things in the set too: the explosion of your drone's can be used interestingly with chain explosions, the grab itself is somewhat interesting, I like the down tilt and I also enjoyed the Dash Attack. And there is nice bits of flow here, with the Side Special and Down Special and the more basic standards and aerials...

...But I feel the flow is the primary issue with the set, as while it does HAVE flow, two areas that desperately need it, the Down Special and Side Special, don't have much that flows well into them, which drags down the set. I would have liked to have seen more uses between synchronised drones or the Side Special overall...though I don't like the Side Special much, as it seems both slightly odd in terms of usage and a bit TOO strong. I also wished the drones exploded a bit earlier (80%?), as 100% seems a bit harsh.

But overall, the set is good, but it's just lacking from being more than just that: good. If it had some more flow, I could easily see this set being much more loved, as it has some pretty good concepts for a boss.


Is Jinbe a good set? No, not really, but as a newcomer set, it is certainly better than many, and shows that you understand the fundamental concepts of making a moveset, which is great!

In this case, the playstyle is slicking up the foe with Jinbe's Neutral Special, which helps his entire moveset, which is actually a pretty good base, although the NSpec could use some number based tweaking: two seconds is too long for moves with lots of lag. For reference, Warlock Punch's start-up time is a bit over a second, making it a valuable tool for envisioning how long a laggy attack can be (Falcon Punch's start-up is about 4/6ths of a second by comparison). The Neutral Special is also a good idea, but again, could use some number tweaking: the range numbers should probably be halved or so for medium/close range and everything past do long range damage, as many stages are smaller than Final Destination (such as Battlefield) and thus always get the close range one. At the same time, both are nice concepts and show an understanding of how to develope a playstyle, which is good.

Perhaps you should consider other ways to take advantage of slicking up the foe, though? That is my biggest complaint: few moves use wetting the foe to their advantage much. What if, say, you had a throw that normally was just a throw, but when the foe is wet adds some damage and tripping, allowing Jinbe to follow up on the vulnearable foe? You mention Karakusa is all about punching ambient water: maybe you could make it so, say, one of the punches has extra range if the foe is wet because it can hit the water? Those were just two random ideas, but you can somewhat get what I am going with this: by building upon the crux idea of the moveset, making the foe wet, you can build a wonderful playstyle, a focused one if you will.

Overall, the set is not offensively bad, but there is little good either, but it offers much hope that future movesets from you will be good.

Gruesome Toupee

I already previewed this, but I decided to give it a total reread, to arrange my thoughts and provide a comment. Gruesome Twosome is a vechile set, in the same vein as Beezwax and Garbage Man.

Something I noticed about this moveset that I did not before is that it is quite lockdown-y. There is the spider webbing of course, but the snakes also contribute to this, making it harder to escape, and the bedsheet ghosts further hurt this by making the lockdown more than obnoxious...and then I came to an interaction I realized only upon rereading that really makes it obscene: hit a bedsheet hit foe with a snake (or a snake hit foe with a bedsheet) and they now have to deal with the fact they cannot attack the snake while the snake can attack them to interrupt or otherwise harm them while they try to get the bedsheet ghosts off. Oh, and the Twosome can grab them to re-apply bedsheet ghosts, can throw more snakes or can spam U-Tilt to keep a steady stream of bedsheets out while the foe desperately tries to avoid it. This is pretty automatic of a playstyle, and arguably was before the ghosts are even introduced, that feels very strong when combined with the Twosome's superheavyweight status and, you know, all of his other moves. Oh, and you can set the bedsheet on fire, for added bonus fun. Strong fire.

Oh, and you can make them not even be able to see what is going on with the smokescreen. You know, in retrospect, this moveset has a lot more lockdown-y stuff than I imagined, whether intentional or not...I bet this would be annoying to fight.

This is not to say the moveset is without it's strong points, as I do quite like the way the dragon is used, with the ability to extend it around and the clumping, while I was never as big on Banbollow as others, is at least interesting. And the moveset does flow, even if the way it flows is actually not that good. And I do still like the rain clouds and thunder clouds, which seem like a cool concept and are executed decently.

Ultimately, I feel the failings of this moveset are that it did not accomplish the goal stated out in the playstyle: to turn the Creepy Coupe into something like a walking trap. The traps feel less like they'd be used as intended and more like more lockdown-ish moves, creating a more automatic and less interesting playstyle, while I found the more interesting moves, such as the dragon and the clouds, to be less related to this goal of self-trapping, although the dragon still can be useful for it.

I went into this looking to still like it and came out dissapointed. I find this a disturbing trend in your sets, such as Kong and Deathborn, in that they don't stand up well to rereads, as if it has ended up more surface than substance. Ultimately, I dislike this set, but I do admire it's bold look into the vechile genre and the attempt at the concept.


Smash Apprentice
Mar 7, 2013
Is Jinbe a good set? No, not really, but as a newcomer set, it is certainly better than many, and shows that you understand the fundamental concepts of making a moveset, which is great!

In this case, the playstyle is slicking up the foe with Jinbe's Neutral Special, which helps his entire moveset, which is actually a pretty good base, although the NSpec could use some number based tweaking: two seconds is too long for moves with lots of lag. For reference, Warlock Punch's start-up time is a bit over a second, making it a valuable tool for envisioning how long a laggy attack can be (Falcon Punch's start-up is about 4/6ths of a second by comparison). The Neutral Special is also a good idea, but again, could use some number tweaking: the range numbers should probably be halved or so for medium/close range and everything past do long range damage, as many stages are smaller than Final Destination (such as Battlefield) and thus always get the close range one. At the same time, both are nice concepts and show an understanding of how to develope a playstyle, which is good.

Perhaps you should consider other ways to take advantage of slicking up the foe, though? That is my biggest complaint: few moves use wetting the foe to their advantage much. What if, say, you had a throw that normally was just a throw, but when the foe is wet adds some damage and tripping, allowing Jinbe to follow up on the vulnearable foe? You mention Karakusa is all about punching ambient water: maybe you could make it so, say, one of the punches has extra range if the foe is wet because it can hit the water? Those were just two random ideas, but you can somewhat get what I am going with this: by building upon the crux idea of the moveset, making the foe wet, you can build a wonderful playstyle, a focused one if you will.

Overall, the set is not offensively bad, but there is little good either, but it offers much hope that future movesets from you will be good.
First things first, let's thank you for this semi-good review. I wasn't really hoping to have a "Great!" review, you guys can pull off far crazier stuff in your movesets and I come from a far more laxist community.

Now I must say, I'm not really good with Brawl numbers. That's a point on which I'll have to improve upon, because that seriously looks like basic knowledge here. Down B and Neutral B were really hard to do and I'm proud of what came off, and you're only confirming that. I did realize the slicking mechanic was terribly underused, but I simply fell short of ideas by that point. I probably wanted to stick to the original material, and that crippled the set, I'm aware of that. As such I will certainly remix the set later, when I'll be (hopefully) a better movesetter. I pretty much skipped the normals for no good reason.

Also to make a very short comment, I really liked Kitanji. He looks like pretty fun to play, andd quite frankly, when judging movesets on a whim, it's all that matters for me. Good work as always!


Smash Lord
Apr 26, 2007
Las Vegas, Nevada
First things first, let's thank you for this semi-good review. I wasn't really hoping to have a "Great!" review, you guys can pull off far crazier stuff in your movesets and I come from a far more laxist community.

Now I must say, I'm not really good with Brawl numbers. That's a point on which I'll have to improve upon, because that seriously looks like basic knowledge here. Down B and Neutral B were really hard to do and I'm proud of what came off, and you're only confirming that. I did realize the slicking mechanic was terribly underused, but I simply fell short of ideas by that point. I probably wanted to stick to the original material, and that crippled the set, I'm aware of that. As such I will certainly remix the set later, when I'll be (hopefully) a better movesetter. I pretty much skipped the normals for no good reason.

Also to make a very short comment, I really liked Kitanji. He looks like pretty fun to play, andd quite frankly, when judging movesets on a whim, it's all that matters for me. Good work as always!
Don't worry, I am sure you will improve in time. :) All of us had to start somewhere, after all. And it's better than some other stuff we've had already (Koopa Troopas, Selene), so that is good.

I am glad that you enjoyed Kitaniji!


Thane of Smashville
Jul 5, 2010
Vincennes, Indiana
Froydian Comments


Fighting types have always been a favorite of mine, and I've always wanted to attempt one (Smash IS a fighting game after all!), so I get giddy when I see a fighting type set. Croagunk lays a bit more emphasis on the other typing of his dual-type, though that's to be expected from the character. I really do like the playstyle here: forcing approaches, poisoning and constant chipping away, combined with a lot of fast-paced movement and spacing options makes for a match I'd love to play myself. And it's pulled off well: your moves flow well into each other and the interactions, soft as they may be, are natural feeling and not forced. It keeps focus, and, sofar as i can tell, filler is minimum, everything having a place in the fight with some usefulness. All-in-all, great way to start off the contest, Froy!

Firstly, i quite enjoy the design similarities to Nate's Vader set (not sure if intentional, with the split playstyle), nice touch. Force Tear is a move I love especially (likely because I'm making a set that makes use of a similar concept), but a movable wall defense/offense is a concept I love to death. I really love the dark/light side elements present in the set, I think it's a great way to showcase the Jedi's struggle in a set. I love the aggression, I love the lightsaber combat element, and I love the character present in the set. I really like this one, nice job, Fray!

More to come soon!


Smash Lord
Apr 26, 2007
Las Vegas, Nevada
FrozenRoy's Set and Comment Corner

Hello and welcome to FrozenRoy's Set and Comment Corner, a successor to Warrior of Many Faces' Set and Comment Corner!

The concept of this is quite simple: Gather the comments for all sets in one convient area, allowing you to go here to read or reread what people have said about sets simply, quickly and efficiently, in addition to linking to all sets posted. Here is a sample:

Set Name Here (w/ Link to Post Included)
by Username413

[collapse="Commenter612"]COMMENT BLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEH[/collapse]

Note that due to the way that Smashboards has done their coloring of text, I won't be transferring any color in the comments to the Comment Corner, sorry (EDIT: For some reason now it works sometimes but doesn't others???). I also will not be using any images to avoid unneccessary clutter between sets. My signature will not link to it, but both my Rankings and the Weighted Rankings will, not to mention the Bunker. Now then, let us begin!


by FrozenRoy


Fighting types have always been a favorite of mine, and I've always wanted to attempt one (Smash IS a fighting game after all!), so I get giddy when I see a fighting type set. Croagunk lays a bit more emphasis on the other typing of his dual-type, though that's to be expected from the character. I really do like the playstyle here: forcing approaches, poisoning and constant chipping away, combined with a lot of fast-paced movement and spacing options makes for a match I'd love to play myself. And it's pulled off well: your moves flow well into each other and the interactions, soft as they may be, are natural feeling and not forced. It keeps focus, and, sofar as i can tell, filler is minimum, everything having a place in the fight with some usefulness. All-in-all, great way to start off the contest, Froy![/collapse]

[collapse="Smash Daddy"]We've set a good quality trend in first sets of the contest, that Croagunk is proud to continue. I actually do vividly remember Toxicroak, a set that focused on using poison damage and this is an appropriately similar approach. Croagunk has greater reason to use this to augment its damage, seeing as it's a pre-evolution of an already made moveset, but it doesn't use that as a crux to be less than its forbearer. In fact, the set makes the poison into a far improved mechanic in the context of its wonderfully campy and pragmatic playstyle. There's a simple hand at subversion to avoid confrontation in the standards, piling on damage using the throws and jab attack. You nailed the defensive playstyle, Roy, without sacrificing any of the character's natural flash. Generally this type of set falters when it comes to the grab game and smashes, however, among Croagunk's best moments are these two sections. I'm not a fan of the generic forward throw and forward smash isn't as unique in the same section as up smash. Those aside, the other moves are very well executed and keeps the momentum of this simple Pokémon going where you'd expect the author to give up. What I love is the elegant combination of moves to force an approach, making Croagunk into the silent killer he should be and making the set a cut above other sets of this style in my view. Where it loses points is in the aerials. Functional is all the praise I can give, while these moves have a defined use in the playstyle, they needed to be differentiated from other similar moves in Brawl to keep my attention. Far from ruining the set, though, it simply meant the set reached not quite as far above my expectations. I would certainly agree it's one of your best.[/collapse]

[collapse="Big Mac"]Tribute to a set you don't even seem to like all that much from 5 MYMs ago: The good things I said about Croagunk largely hinged on the aerials being changed from their filler temporary versions, which they weren't. Other inputs that I don't like that are still lurking around are the fsmash (The suction is interesting, but the projectile feels largely un-flowing and doesn't help that much with match-ups anyway, being quite a slow projectile), Side Special (Going past solid constructs feels like it has little to do with anything and is just bad match-up fodder) and Up Special (It just doesn't do much). The Neutral Special is a good introduction to the mechanic writing wise, but feels like a standard, most obviously a jab. The jab and Neutral Special being swapped would improve this, given the more unique properties of that move and how well Neutral Special fits on jab, but it would be too difficult for the writing. It just kind of feels how it is like it's just there almost entirely for the sake of the reader, only to be later outdone, somewhat like sets like Zant.

While the execution is iffy, it certainly tries at points, and the playstyle concept is interesting than what you'd expect out of a set of this calibur. The poison pressuring based thing is enough to give me a slight liking of this set. Enough that, say, it'd still squeak out a vote from me probably in MYM 13. Regardless of some of the bad inputs, the moveset still largely plays how I want it to play, and that certainly counts for something.[/collapse]


No surprise I appreciate this set, seeing as it clearly draws inspiration from the Toxicroak set JOE! and I made together 5 contests ago (It's been that long?) but takes its own twists on it that makes it feel like a pre-evolution with its own unique, more cautious playstyle as opposed to Toxicroak's unfettered aggression. Making a sequel / prequel moveset like that is definitely harder than writing a set from scratch, but you made the pay-off worth it, and I am impressed.

I'm not comfortable with shield poisoning as a mechanic since it seems artificial that you can poison a shield, but the effect is an interesting playstyle mechanic. You use poison creatively, and with moves like Brick Break have a lot of ways to get shield pressure down without having to go out of the way or rush in, more cautious, like Croagunk does seem in comparison to Toxicroak.

I have a couple other issues to take with the set; the aerials do feel very flat, on a frog character where it should be a lot more interesting. His back aerial being a simple backwards punch just doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the set, and several of the aerials didn't feel like they were even on the best input to me. Drain Punch is another issue I had, not with the concept of the move, which was quite clever; using poison to heal instead is brilliant. Why it's a throw is beyond me though, when it feels like a move deserving of a centerpiece part of the set. The sad part is, it makes the move feel like it was an afterthought to make a more interesting throw than premeditated. All in all, while Croagunk is hardly my favorite set, and I'm held back from loving it too much because I don't like how the mechanic fits together, it's a solid, fun set with an interesting playstyle that I approve of.[/collapse]

There are many things to give this moveset credit for in terms of pacing, writing and a compelling impression of flow. You tie simple ideas together convincingly, and it's alltogether a good read.
Characterwise, you leave the dirty fighting up to the player, which is great. The way Croagunk is mostly reactive in his fighting style is an exact match to the Pokemon's approach to encounters. And theoretically, the pressure of time poison-damage compels the foe to attack in a way that would (if it worked) promote pessimistic self-prognosis, provoking the foe into stupid, confused, mistakes. That characterisation is very well planned out, and it deserves recognition.

But, regrettably, you have a lot of convincing to do if you want me to believe that this poison mechanic actually works the way you wish it to. I've seen this aggressive anti-camping poison approach before, in Croagunk's spiritual predecessor Toxicroak. It's admirable that you'd want to emulate this concept, as it makes MYM feel just that little bit more connected. But it's an idea that swiftly contradicts itself and falls apart once the players begin utilising even the slightest bit of meta-gaming. Players will do what gives them the best chances of winning, and approaching into a character you KNOW can punish the hell out of you is never going to be the optimal strategy. All the poison damage in the world wouldn't convince a man to give himself to Croagunk's optimal-range. They'd much rather force Croagunk to approach (which he needs to do in order to achieve anything at all, including the magic poison that is supposed to make THEM approach) and punish that in relative safety.

The bizarre lack of mud throwing in the moveset is also quite shocking, considering how well you otherwise encapsulate Croagunk as a character. Mud-Slap and Mud-Bomb are both natural moves for Croagunk, and pretty blatantly indicative of how he gets the upper hand on predators in his natural habitat.
More promisingly, the options for shield pressure are satisfying and effective (ignoring the shield poisoning which is so weak that it isn't remotely worth the effort of inflicting). This lends some actual fear to the procedings, breaking open the foe's defenses to give Croagunk's own options that much more bite.

I think this should be a hard rule, if the character canonically learns TAUNT by level up, you should include taunts in your moveset.[/collapse]

The consensus on Croagunk thus far appears to be solidly positive, which, for the most part, I’m happy to echo. His pitiful weight is offset by his solid offensive properties, bolstered by his relentless stacking of poison to keep characters in his face. Once there, the option of baiting them into Revenge or an F-Tilt so as to keep victims on a slippery slope toward their eventual KO at a high percent is a compelling one as well. A more subtle aspect of the set of which I am a fan are Croagunk’s more subtle follow-up options, such as his crouch-jumping enabling him to follow opponents up into the air, while he can follow behind his F-Smash projectile to creep up on and overwhelm opponents. Admittedly, a handful of attacks come across as filler and reliant on being pieced into straightforward combos to make much of an impact. The set flows together well enough for the most part to give this a pass, of course, and I’m guessing it will certainly stick in minds due to its own merits, in addition to being the contest’s first set.[/collapse]

[collapse="Katapultar"]I'll have to agree with a lot of what others have brought up about this set. You did well in making Croagunk feel like a pre-evo and play sneakily, yet at the same time some of the execution and input placements feel awkward - Croagunk doesn't force approaches, he's the one being forced to approach. It's already been established that the poisoning doesn't really work well with the fact that Croagunk is a close-range fighter who's also light and isn't great with spacing, though in your defense he does have counters and is fast enough to run away from most characters. You can stack the poisoning with Poison Jab, but that doesn't change the amount of time it'll take to be put into effect, and running away from opponents just to make the poison take effect would admittedly be in-character of Croagunk but be very boring for the player. Croagunk is underpowered, in-char I'll admit, but having feints and counters at least make his poisoning just a -little- viable.

On a minor note, the Down Special randomly getting such a massive burst of power over being hit while not being knocked away seems a bit tacky to me (I had a similar problem with Jarvis' F-tilt), as well as the fact that such a little frog has the same grab range as Dedede (I may forgive this if you mentioned that he leaped forward or something). Side Special doesn't sit well with me, though if you were looking for something more relevant I reckon it'd be cool to see a Monkey Flip-esque attack where Croagunk bounces off anything he hits, going a certain distance based on the time you spent charging - that'd give the little guy the sufficient spacing he so desperately needs after poisoning a foe while being able to jump over stuff like walls. Why you need such a situational attack just to slide over somebody's landmine when you have a roll like everyone else is beyond me.

Croagunk has its heart in the right place in terms of characterization, yet his playstyle isn't quite up to scratch. I'm not saying that making him trappy to make the poisoning more relevant and usable would be a good idea, but rather how the poison itself works: poison is quite flexible, and while making it stronger would be a bit out-of-character for Croagunk it could have been that foes take 1% whenever they move or attack. That would perfectly compliment Croagunk's established counter-game and the fact that he fights up-close and has no means of stalling for the poison in the first place, which would take effect quicker. It's always an idea for the future, though (maybe I should work on Roxie again...).[/collapse]

[collapse="JOE"]CROAGUNK = 8 / 10
  1. +Jump physics add an interesting dynamic between normal / short hopping, and crouch-jumping. That and the usage of second jump boosting Up B is a nice touch / nod to Toxicroak.
  2. +The specials play together very well off the bat to create a coherent playstyle.
  3. +Throws are solid and work together with the other moves well, even if Dthrow outclasses Fthrow by making Croagunk advantaged instead of neutral with similar payoffs.
  4. +Mixing different types of poison adds new depth to the status effect.
  5. +High pressure focus to amplify the poison advantage.
  6. +aerials work very well with his cross-up game, all being well designed to hop around with at differing heights
  7. +Fsmash being slow is more of a strength than being fast. Think about it like this, if it is slower it is out for longer as it takes it's course, therefor giving Croagunk more time to work with it to put a foe in a corner so to speak as they in turn have to react to Vacuum wave in some (punishable) way.
  8. Upon second thought, Forward throw doesn't have much use from Dthrow aside from 4% more initial damage, seeing as the guaranteed tech-chase combined with his pressure game (much, much like his Granddaddy) would definitely lead to more damage without the need to risk the foe recuperating.
  9. Usmash and Uair seem more fillerish than anything. Utilt covers both of their jobs as Croagunk seems to want to stay grounded at all times to get the best use of his tools, well grounded as much as possible when he doesn't want to do a cross-up with Nair/Fair/Dair. Feint Attack can also counter aerials in a ballsy maneuver, can't it? But anyways, they just seem a tad lacking in use
  10. -Dash attack is completely outclassed by Side B and Roll + Ftilt when used in conjunction. The latter in fact doing everything you hype Dash attack to do but with the built-in option to fake them out and to be able to hit whenever by manually Ftilting (in either direction to boot). This wouldn't have been a negative if it weren't for the focus placed on DA when these two options are clearly better at all times.
A great way to start off MYM14, the successor to Toxicroak certainly plays like he is part of the family. In fact, he plays like his pichu almost with him being a near clone! Well, except for a handful of moves here and there. That said he has the interesting twist of being more methodical and risk vs reward than his Grandpappy who favored all-out aggression and pressure are nearly all times. Croagunk's range and lower mobilty forces him to play with the various poison effects more to get the desired effects, and even has some CQC chops like Toxi did. All in all a favorite so far.[/collapse]


by darth_meanie

[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Lovely Mamiries

I'd been interested in this set since you described to me what it was like, so seeing Mami up on the first day was greatly pleasing. Fortunately, I do not feel the set dissapointed.

The specials are fairly exquisite, giving her interesting options with her one-shot rifles and creating a sort of "field of blades" type playstyle I always loved (both in MYM and, more importantly, watching!). One thing I do wish, though, is that Down Special let you produce three rifles and not two: Not only would this be consistant with the Neutral Special, which lets you summon three, but I feel three is an excellent number both for balance and for optimal fun use. Still, the move is pretty good. Side Special is also okay, though I imagine some will be displeased that the grab difficulty basically feels like stun, even if it is small and sets her up well. I'm fine with it, though. I also remembered it is units and not blocks, so 3 SBUs is probably fine.

The standards, while basic, are all quite nice and flow well into her general playstyle, which helps differentiate her. The dash attack is probably my favorite move here. The Smashes are great, though, mostly D-Smash and F-Smash: I love Down Smash and it's usage in her playstyle, plus how it works with the rifles, giving her one of my favorite things in the playstyle as it feels like she oh-so elegantly flows from attack to attack, shot to shot, strike to strike, a distillation of grace if you will. Forward Smash is cool, with a good way of messing with shielding and dodging, doing well with her general gameplan and overall being excellent execution of something simple into something great. Up Smash is the only one where it feels like it falters any: I'm not entirely convinced of it's playstyle relevance and it does not feel as interesting as the other two, even if it is not really bad.

The aerials and grab game, I feel, are not quite as good as the rest of the set. The aerials aren't bad, but the grab aerial's range might need to be a bit lower given it's KO power, and I feel like moves could have been improved. I would have loved a move that allowed her to pick up an aerial rifle with one of them, which could have opened up some good possibilities, and for the Up Aerial to...say...have an option to fire off a rifle shot in exchange for more ending lag and being forced down a little by tapping A, which would have given her interesting use against air dodges and for juggling. And even if it IS a pummel, I wish it was there: Is it a fast one you can safely use while reeling in or a slow one you have to be careful with? You could even have the pummel reel the foe in faster in exchange for the foe being able to escape easier. There's plenty of options there and it missing just bugs me when it takes maybe two sentences to write a generic pummel if need be. And while Up Throw/Back Throw felt like they had playstyle relevance, Forward Throw and Down Throw did not.

Still, I did quite like the set, with it's elegant playstyle in a sort of push and repel manner, creating a constant tug-o-war and so on, with excellent approach breaking. I don't think she fully realized the playstyle concept you mean, perhaps being a bit too much of a setup or a bit less on the DI reading, but I still like it more than Electivire, so it is my favorite DM set at the moment. Good show.[/collapse]

[collapse="Katapultar"]As someone who was going to make a set for Mami in the distant past, I should be fairly excited to see what you came up with, so most of this comment is going to end up being fanboy-ish. It wouldn't be fair for that side of the set to be ignored, after all.

First up, I see what you did with that last line in the second introductory paragraph. I greatly appreciate it. Secondly, you did a pretty decent job at mapping out the inputs on the Specials, which is tough because of how somewhat limited the muskets are. I can forgive you for not including the musket strings and the potential pay-off of using missed shots to your advantage since you included floating muskets as a substitute, though I still think that musket strings coming from the blast zones would greatly accompany the surreal feel of the Madoka anime. It's fine not to include it though, because trappy stage-control wasn't part of your gameplan as mentioned in the playstyle. All the Specials are awesome, though I have my doubts about the Nanohaish Side Special despite being a good tribute and capturing the use of ribbonesque-grabbing in the Special attacks.

The standard attacks are nice, a good combination of magic and elegant physical attacks, the smash attacks playing off the already-established musket shots and being tributes to some of Mami's best action moments. You might want to finish typing up that U-Smash properly though. The way the aerials are presented makes them bland though, not because they're brawl attacks but because they're not given much attention in the playstyle section and lack depth in how they're supposed to work, how they're supposed to make Mami works when she's in the air. Along with the grabs via the fact that you didn't give Mami a pummel, it makes it sound like you didn't care about what a third of Mami's attacks do - I question the base knockback of the U-throw, because 2 Platforms is quite high and it's absurd for Mami to be able to throw somebody that high with her bare hands, even if she is a magical girl and is yanking a ribbon. Strength isn't her forte unlike with Kyoko.

Near the end, I found the way you interpreted BOTH variations of Tiro Finale to be delicious, one of the most commendable parts of the set. As for the playstyle section, I found that to be the most controversial part of the set. It brought your intentions together nice and clearly about how Mami should play, though it's somewhat irksome that nearly half of it is pointless banter involving Sayaka that's basically telling the reader how Mami works against a rushdown character. The picture is pretty though. The very good thing about the playstyle section though, was that it fully convinced me that you hadn't neglected the way Mami should play as a -character-; she has to guess how her opponent will react and has a simple trap that leaves her feeling satisfied if she can pull it off, able to play quietly or go for an all-out attack when the opportunity presents itself. That, and there are risks associated with her bad out-of-shield game that keep to her being a vulnerable girl, though none of that would be apparent to any reader unless they've seen the series firsthand. These encompassed quibbles of characterization made me like the set in the end despite having a few shortcomings, because really it's all about trying to get a character to play in a way that's suited to them and feel as if you're actually using them. Good job on getting your first Madoka set out.[/collapse]

[collapse="Getocoolaid"]Tamoe Mami
The concept of the moveset itself is compelling enough - a power struggle between the player and the opponent, over territory on the stage. That's the word here: territorial. Mami is an odd type of defense character, not necessarily defending herself, but defending her own space of the stage, and attacking when the opponent is where she needs them to be. Mami's game is so meticulous in just what she needs to do that it creates a very controlled atmosphere, which I greatly appreciate.

There are lots of tethers here, obviously, letting Mami push and pull on the opponent as she needs, maybe a bit too many? I feel as though having the grab AND the up special both be nearly identicle tethers that have roughly the same purpose (aside from one letting her recover) is a bit redundant, and could have been worked around to fit one input, but that's just me.

What I love are the rifles, specifically the floating ones and just how much...stuff can be done with them. I do wish there was a bit more control over them (maybe being able to control the angle of which they fire, or maybe letting them fire multiple shots and being able to control the rapidness of them? I don't know, I don't know the character personally), but that was a conscious decision on your part and what is there is great.

I do quite like the set for the core parts, with my least favorite parts being the aerials (not that their BAD, just they don't have the flair of the previous parts of the set) and the grab game (which Froy handily covered most of my thoughts on in his own comment), but overall, it's pretty awesome.[/collapse]

[collapse="BKupa666"]TOMOE MAMI
Mami’s best features are cut from the same cloth as those of Croagunk in that they are relatively simple, yet bring a handful of intriguing new possibilities to the playstyle’s forefront. Seriously, I can’t recall any other set that has made explicit reference to glide tossing, let alone one that has the technique incorporated into its strategies. Her methods for spawning items, with and without ammunition, and uses for both types of weapons also solidifies the ZSS parallels while beefing her playstyle up with their sheer versatility. Perhaps most refreshing of all is the playstyle format; it’s quite astute of you to recognize that flatly stating what Mami can do would be far less interesting than more reflectively informing readers ‘why.’ That, along with her superb reeling grab, is reason enough for new and old MYMers alike to look back to Mami, ready to be inspired by her concealed depth.[/collapse]

[collapse="Smash Daddy"]If Mami is a sign of what's to come from DM, I'm reasonably happy. What immediately struck me as good about the set was its loose flow to strengthen the ever-simple playstyle. That it focuses on basic elements, DI and prediction, was always going to be a tough sell, however in comes the versatility at melee range and fairly all-encompassing projectile use [basically an instant way to punish far-off opponents]. What results is a straightforward pressure-based character, pressure being one of the keys to actually forcing an approach and what naturally follows is Mami's unerring duplicity. It's the zoning power-up of the rifles hanging around and Mami's ability to trap the opponent, figuratively and literally, that wraps up the playstyle in an appropriately neat bow. I highly approve of the organisation, writing style and characterisation here, it's a subtlety I hope becomes a bedrock of your future set work. The playstyle section in particular was a nice change of pace and highlighted the unique style of this moveset. I have few criticisms to make of the set – the melee versatility and simpler elements, that buffer her unpredictability, do outstay their welcome, but not to any alarming detriment. I can entirely forgive the hiccups as the set largely delivers on its in-smash, in-character promise.[/collapse]

[collapse="JOE"]TOMOE MAMI = 7 / 10
  1. -As much as I don't want to start a RankCom with a negative, this came out right away: what is the purpose of Fspec? Sure, it can get the foe out of your hair in order to summon guns, but in order to do this you have to have a well-telegraphed motion that only works in X area away from her, a literal invitation to rush in and beat on her straight on where she is most vulnerable. Even worse, Ftilt does everything Fspec does but better as you can still *attack* foes from it.
  2. +The depth created from Nspec alone is amazing. However, it is never directly mentioned what direction bullets KB you in, based on the smashes I'll assume it's the direction fired.
  3. +Down B is another incredible move, allowing for easier shots, tossed item play and quick smash attacks.
  4. +Smash attacks are all incredibly fun, as is Dash attack for them action movie feels.
  5. +Metagame section.
  6. +aerials work very well with her spacing game.
  7. +Final Smash being varied based on location
  8. There is important, missing info from the set. 1) direction of KB from bullets. 2) Her pummel (I mean come on). 3) How fast the ribbon from her grab pulls in.
  9. Nair and Utilt feel awkward. The former due to how it changes momentum and in other ways seems outclassed by Z/Fair for forward spacing, and Dair for escaping pressure. The Latter for how raising her arm up to answer a question is suddenly an attack.
  10. -Coming full circle, I just have to comment on the Ftilt again. The prone abuse here just feels... off given her one move that actually prones foes, and even then requiring her to try and tech-chase the foe's get up options since at the range required she's have to approach to even hit from a Marth Fsmash distance. Similarly, any other move that could prone besides possibly Down Fthrow / Dthrow share this problem when Mami shouldn't ever really be the one who approaches. I feel like if you had Ftilt be a different move altogether with it and Fspec's effects being merged, it would be completely groovy.
Reminding me of a combo of Samus and P:M Zelda, Mami is an incredibly unique take on zoning. Nspec is an amazing move that scares the crap out of approaching foes and is a metagame all in itself, with every other move working off of that aspect in harmony. A fun thought was nailing somebody with Up Spec into a smash or hail of bullets down a ledge, feels very satisfying. The one, and biggest complaint though is what you did with Fspec and Ftilt, which really detracted from the rest of the set by them just kinda being these weird trap options, but you can see the red text for that. Overall a good set.[/collapse]


by FrozenRoy

[collapse="Getocoolaid"]SAMUEL L. MUTHA****IN WINDU
Firstly, i quite enjoy the design similarities to Nate's Vader set (not sure if intentional, with the split playstyle), nice touch. Force Tear is a move I love especially (likely because I'm making a set that makes use of a similar concept), but a movable wall defense/offense is a concept I love to death. I really love the dark/light side elements present in the set, I think it's a great way to showcase the Jedi's struggle in a set. I love the aggression, I love the lightsaber combat element, and I love the character present in the set. I really like this one, nice job, Fray![/collapse]

[collapse="Big Mac"]Morgan Freeman's character:I'm in general not a fan of the meat of this moveset that is the melee game. Not much to say other than I'm not seeing much of a playstyle, and that it feels like a very light and in-smash version of Vader which was already quite in-smash. That set had a decent balance, where this one takes it too far. I struggle to keep interest, and the playstyle in general feels like a more boring and straightforward version of that set's in general, and you know how I dislike heavy retreading of old ground in movesetting.

The grab-game and all of the specials save Up are what I like about the moveset, but aside from the Down Special most of these don't have a lot to do with Windu's game and form more of a sub-playstyle than anything. His ranged game is rather downplayed throughout most of the set, especially when his attacks without lightsabers are handwaved as force pushes in every direction.

Now, coming up with something in my mind about how Windu plays, I actually came up with something that I like. Essentially, after Windu goes on a rampage with his melee game with Down Special, he can use his ranged game until he recovers. Preferably, he can use uthrow to end the Down Special rage mode session so that he's already using his ranged moveset once it ends. This makes for an interesting hit and run mechanic while still enabling Windu to actually attack during the running portion. However, this is not acknowledged in the moveset, and you share my philosophy that moveset makers should not be credited for possibilities with their movesets they did not come up with themselves.[/collapse]

[collapse="darth_meanie"]Mace Windu

It really is impressive that you pulled four sets out at the start of this contest, and Mace Windu is a strong set even without considering the time frame he was made in. The grab mechanic you've devised is one of my favorite ones seen for a Jedi character, and it alongside the specials and smashes does a wonderful job of creating a portrait of a Force user, not just Samuel L. Jackson with a laser sword. The ground chunks, while still not my favorite mechanic of all time, are muted enough and are used as objects to throw around, block, and control, not as terraforming constructs like movesets tend towards making those mechanics into. I was also quite nervous about the Force Enhancement lasting throughout multiple stocks, but after rethinking through it, I can see how it actually is balanced for matches of different stock lengths, as each stock becomes less valuable and there is more time in which you spend at a high enough damage that taking more doesn't particularly matter that much.

That all said, it feels really unintuitive that his tilts use his lightsaber but the smashes don't, like they're acting more like specials than smashes in that sense. There are other moves that seem weird to me; the fact that the down tilt has him jump up higher than almost any other characters' short hop particularly irks me. Overall though, I did enjoy the set in the end, and when it comes to portraying Mace Windu as the Jedi Master he is, it especially succeeds.[/collapse]

[collapse="Smash Daddy"]I am not a fan of Darth Vader, but can appreciate the appeal of that set. Mace Windu is paying homage to that set and goes a route that improves the style, utilising descriptive playstyle summaries and a delicate balance of abusive force powers. The blatant use of control thematically is a smart one, the down special becoming a highlight of the playstyle that makes it easy to see the potential for this simplistic character to evolve in a competitive setting. Turning the passive Lucario mechanic into a move or button prompt, is always going to get my approval when put to a great use as it is in the set. The inertia of Windu charging across the battlefield is an obvious source of inspiration, as here the character is able to make use of his specials in particular to approach at an excellent rate. Actually that's my one big complaint, the ground chunk from the start of the set is simply too good of a tool at any stage in the match and stacked on top of the down special and embedding the lightsaber in the foe, that's a scary combination. There was as well blatantly room for a little description on how ridding Windu of his weapon affects all those applicable moves. Those things aside, the set is very well-balanced considering the down special's mechanic effectively splits it into two symmetrical playstyles. Worse than Croagunk but not bad.[/collapse]

[collapse="JOE"]MACE WINDU = 7 / 10
  1. +Clone Wars (aka, characterization is very spot on)
  2. +The specials each have a coherent function, with Dspec and Nspec being favorites. I like the dynamic between N and Fspec, but it seems Push would be more useful as it can be used midair?
  3. +Throws having infinite range is actually handled well. Uthrow is a great move as it offers an entirely new playstyle option.
  4. +Breaking up the playstyle gave great flow.
  5. +Counters in the Ftilt and general Lightsaber > projectiles are great and well in character, same with Shatter Point offering an "offensive" counter to well, defenses.
  6. +His combo game feels incredibly natural and intuitive.
  7. Touching on #2, nothing is said of what Nspec can do mid-air. Nor what the "force push" abilities are when his Saber is used in Uthrow. More info would be appreciated, esp with the latter.
  8. Dtilt isn't a "close range" move if it hits the entire floor of a stage.
  9. -His base stats are very high from the get-go, and having multiple jumps at that caliber is redonkulous. Hes should be toned down at base and go to the current stats with Down B. He also doesn't seem to have a weakness to offset his ability to counter most every option thrown at him + high base stats.
  10. -Up Smash and Dsmash are both Mewtwo-esque in the extreme size and lag of both. This makes them ether 100% unusable or borderline broken given the circumstances.
An awesome character with great ideas, Froy has really nailed characterization here. For the most part, given his extreme force abilities such as infinite range grab and a transcendent lightsaber, Mace is actually well balanced in that he has to out-think foes in order to actually land KO moves. However, his high base values make Down Special a little less awesome than it should be, and some over the top smash attacks hold the Jedi back.[/collapse]

by FrozenRoy
A bit surprised absolutely no-one has commented this set yet, so I may as well do the honors. The unfortunately named robot master's set relies on the fairly basic concept of a bird that will jet towards him once every 3 seconds as somewhat interesting concept for a projectile. That said, trying to use this concept as the centerpiece for a set feels a bit misguided, since the only really obvious way to make use of this thing is to stun the foe into the blade. And you can also move around it's starting position and wall it off with a couple moves. I can forgive simplicity, but if all you're doing is stunning a foe into another attack that's a pretty weak playstyle, with no real flow outside of that other than just some generic "better in the air" stuff, when the aerials are hardly remarkable or relevant, just he happens to have a lot of flight in the air. With how bloody obvious the set is to play and how little substance it has I don't even think it is particularly good as a Brawl set, though at the very least the most I can really level against the set is that it is extremely boring.[/collapse]

[collapse="Smash Daddy"]I always get hung up on a set I don't like, that happened to be SwallowMan.EXE. For far too long. What may have created this irritating atmosphere for my commenting was the fact that it's really, really bland and admittedly barely held my attention. Once you get past the specials, the rest of the moves are lacking in the usual flow I'd expect from one of your sets. Not to say the specials are great, the bird acting as an active hitbox wherever it goes is about the only thing I like at all about the set, but the rest of the specials are forgettable. So, instead of wasting time by pontificating on what exactly I can say about this set, I'll just be direct and say I hate it. Don't take that as disapproval of experimenting by posting sets you aren't totally comfortable with, but there's just nothing to this one and based on our interactions, I dare say you at least partially agree.[/collapse]


  1. +Bird Projectile is an interesting move.
  2. +Down Special has a cool anti-gimp use: try to spike you? Thanks for the recovery height!
  3. +Side B and Dair make for a legit edge-guarding option.
  4. Stale Moves
  5. While many moves delay the timing of the bird, the fact that he can just shoot out another makes it seem superfluous to try.
  6. Many moves have wind effects but don't really do anything with them.
  7. Utilt is an anti-air "counter" on a character who can dominate the airspace and has an OTG counter.
  8. While cool, there seems to be little reason to want to Dthrow for long in multi-man as you ruin his mobility.
  9. While Dair was cool, the aerials are rather uninspired for a bird-based character.
  10. -Smashes all prevent any form of recovering high, Dair prevents all forms of recovering low. Going offstage at all vs him is a death sentance.
Swallowman... what can I say? He has a few cool ideas, a few bad ones... and a lot of average in between.[/collapse]


by FrozenRoy

[collapse="Getocoolaid"]Megumi Kitaniji
Firstly, nice work on the atmosphere and look of the set: elegant, dark, and a bit unnerving. The presentation here is top-notch.

That Neutral Special, man. Great job on that. The possibilities of how it can be used are probably near endless, it can be used as a trap, of a wall, of just a direct attack. It's one of my favorite individual moves, probably ever. The rest of the moveset flows beautifully as well, leaving little room for error while also having a very wide variety of paths the match can go. To be honest, I'm struggling with criticism. Like at all. I'm really in love with this set, and why no one else has commented upon it is beyond me. If this isn't a Supervote for me, we've had a damn good contest, I can tell you that right now.[/collapse]

[collapse="Smash Daddy"]
The marriage of a concept like time stop and the typical Roy in-smash execution is a match made in heaven. Kitanji is surprisingly creative in its use of elements like a tether, complex projectiles and DM's hated angling in the up special. This is a total shift away from your other sets but what makes it the best one is that it never abandons the small rock, big ripple philosophy and the parts of the set that take advantage of this are the best. The angling for example, opening up a simple, creative playground wherein walls, lasers and projectiles come into play. Incredibly visceral use of Espeon's mechanic in the shield special and the grab game in general are works of genius, bringing together a very focused "controlling" playstyle that isn't trying to impress with its concept but its execution. I don't think I need to touch on why the characterisation's great, but props on a noticeable improvement in your writing style and organisation. Even moves you'd think would be a throwaway such as the jab actually end up being interesting because of the in-smash spin you give. The repeated use of the walls from the down smash in the up aerial, plus the projectile from up smash in the down aerial, are strange, but serve a good purpose in adding to the contained playground within an already great playstyle. It's not only refreshing, it is reinvigorating to see a totally new approach to these ideas and that's why I really enjoyed reading Kitanji.[/collapse]

[collapse="JOE!"]MEGUMI KITANIJI = 8 / 10
  1. +Brilliant Nspec that I'm assuming adapts the Touch Screen mechanic from the game?
  2. +Time stop creates an interesting dynamic as you are able to create the time to set-up provided you have the patience and opportunity.
  3. +Floating Mechanics allowing for choice of aerials or ground game mid-air.
  4. +Shield special is a brilliant mechanic when combined with the Specials / pummel.
  5. +Presentation using quotes from the game as headers / general feel of the set.
  6. +Very creative smash attacks
  7. Dthrow is toted as a KO option, but at 185% it is really lackluster esp. when it removes your safety pin. 5% earlier per pummel prior also doesn't help much when the pummel is slow. Ftilt is also better all-around than it.
  8. Uthrow's "thether to nothing" line is confusing, does it tether to air or just fail?
  9. Ftilt should be a special, and seems more important than his normal Side B.
  10. Uair and Dair are rehashes of moves he can already perform mid-air thanks to Up B.
Kitaniji is a solid set with excellent special moves, a fun playstyle involving composing the stage and zoning to his wishes, and with only a few minor bits here and there that keep it from being a truly excellent set.[/collapse]

by TheKalmarKing

[collapse="FrozenRoy"]VOTE JINBE

Is Jinbe a good set? No, not really, but as a newcomer set, it is certainly better than many, and shows that you understand the fundamental concepts of making a moveset, which is great!

In this case, the playstyle is slicking up the foe with Jinbe's Neutral Special, which helps his entire moveset, which is actually a pretty good base, although the NSpec could use some number based tweaking: two seconds is too long for moves with lots of lag. For reference, Warlock Punch's start-up time is a bit over a second, making it a valuable tool for envisioning how long a laggy attack can be (Falcon Punch's start-up is about 4/6ths of a second by comparison). The Neutral Special is also a good idea, but again, could use some number tweaking: the range numbers should probably be halved or so for medium/close range and everything past do long range damage, as many stages are smaller than Final Destination (such as Battlefield) and thus always get the close range one. At the same time, both are nice concepts and show an understanding of how to develope a playstyle, which is good.

Perhaps you should consider other ways to take advantage of slicking up the foe, though? That is my biggest complaint: few moves use wetting the foe to their advantage much. What if, say, you had a throw that normally was just a throw, but when the foe is wet adds some damage and tripping, allowing Jinbe to follow up on the vulnearable foe? You mention Karakusa is all about punching ambient water: maybe you could make it so, say, one of the punches has extra range if the foe is wet because it can hit the water? Those were just two random ideas, but you can somewhat get what I am going with this: by building upon the crux idea of the moveset, making the foe wet, you can build a wonderful playstyle, a focused one if you will.

Overall, the set is not offensively bad, but there is little good either, but it offers much hope that future movesets from you will be good.[/collapse]

I don't think anyone has attempted a One Piece set in quite a while now, much less for such an obscure seeming character. You seem to have a lot of awareness and knowledge of the source material, which is good, but also makes it confusing when you refer to complicated terms and highly Romanized attacks as if I know what they mean, but I had to refer back a few times to try to understand it. I'd recommend in general referring to moves by their input rather than name.
The playstyle that Jinbe has is also a bit barebones. The playstyle section explains some of his options, but it doesn't get very deep into why it's that way, or how it balances out and gives him interesting options, except in vague terms. Some more specifics would be nice, because I can tell you certainly had ideas in your head about how his stun moves worked together, but it doesn't come together nicely.. Similarly, basic attacks like tilts and aerials deserve more description than you gave in the set itself. It's fine for the attack to be simple, but there's a terrible lack of detail or description. How long must a player move around before they dry off when wet? You don't paint a picture of the animation, or how it fits into the larger picture.
One final thing about balance. Having a move that is crucial to your playstyle take two seconds to perform is pretty hard to like. Even though it's set up, it feels very stallish and run-away focus, and two seconds is a whole lot of time in a fighting game. Having to find an opportunity to set up a move is one thing, but having to go that far out of the way would be frustrating as a player. Compare it to Olimar's Pikmin Pluck, which happens almost instantly. The range for the side special also has no sense of scale. On most stages, you will always be within one Final Destination radius of your opponent. It's a very large stage, and if you knock an opponent up with any other attack it could be a near guaranteed kill regardless of damage percent.[/collapse]

Firstly, welcome to Make Your Move if you're new, and welcome back if you're fairly new (I can't remember anything else by you, sorry). Jinbe, for an early set, isn't too bad. There are definitely good ideas here, mostly slicking up the foe and such. The main thing I'd like to emphasize is that once you have that base, you should build the rest of the moveset around it, using interactions or little special effects on certain moves when the foe is in that state. Froy certainly covers this in his comment, and I'm not trying to cover already covered ground. It's aq very good start to your career as a movesetter, you just need to become more aware of the focus and flow of the moveset. I'm anxious to see what you come up with next.[/collapse]

[collapse="JOE!"]JINBE = 5 / 10
  1. +Nspec is very fun.
  2. +Multiple uses of Down B
  3. +Cool smash attacks
  4. Dspec, while good, takes far too long to charge if he needs to constantly use it. Reducing it to 1 - 1.5 sec would be fine.
  5. Fspec doesn't seem too useful when he is fast enough to approach relatively safe already.
  6. Water focus while cool, isn't really prevalent as only a handful of areas allow him to use the mechanic.
  7. Uair seems counter-intuitive as he seems to like to juggle foes, not drag them to the ground.
  8. -Mirrored throws and aerials without real relevance. Ftilt and Utilt also seem to share a niche.
  9. -While the water effects are touched upon, much, much more could have been done with them.
  10. -Overall stale moves.
Jinbe is a solid foundation of a set, but needs more meat on his bones to be really notable.[/collapse]

by Big Mac

[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Gruesome Toupee

I already previewed this, but I decided to give it a total reread, to arrange my thoughts and provide a comment. Gruesome Twosome is a vechile set, in the same vein as Beezwax and Garbage Man.

Something I noticed about this moveset that I did not before is that it is quite lockdown-y. There is the spider webbing of course, but the snakes also contribute to this, making it harder to escape, and the bedsheet ghosts further hurt this by making the lockdown more than obnoxious...and then I came to an interaction I realized only upon rereading that really makes it obscene: hit a bedsheet hit foe with a snake (or a snake hit foe with a bedsheet) and they now have to deal with the fact they cannot attack the snake while the snake can attack them to interrupt or otherwise harm them while they try to get the bedsheet ghosts off. Oh, and the Twosome can grab them to re-apply bedsheet ghosts, can throw more snakes or can spam U-Tilt to keep a steady stream of bedsheets out while the foe desperately tries to avoid it. This is pretty automatic of a playstyle, and arguably was before the ghosts are even introduced, that feels very strong when combined with the Twosome's superheavyweight status and, you know, all of his other moves. Oh, and you can set the bedsheet on fire, for added bonus fun. Strong fire.

Oh, and you can make them not even be able to see what is going on with the smokescreen. You know, in retrospect, this moveset has a lot more lockdown-y stuff than I imagined, whether intentional or not...I bet this would be annoying to fight.

This is not to say the moveset is without it's strong points, as I do quite like the way the dragon is used, with the ability to extend it around and the clumping, while I was never as big on Banbollow as others, is at least interesting. And the moveset does flow, even if the way it flows is actually not that good. And I do still like the rain clouds and thunder clouds, which seem like a cool concept and are executed decently.

Ultimately, I feel the failings of this moveset are that it did not accomplish the goal stated out in the playstyle: to turn the Creepy Coupe into something like a walking trap. The traps feel less like they'd be used as intended and more like more lockdown-ish moves, creating a more automatic and less interesting playstyle, while I found the more interesting moves, such as the dragon and the clouds, to be less related to this goal of self-trapping, although the dragon still can be useful for it.

I went into this looking to still like it and came out dissapointed. I find this a disturbing trend in your sets, such as Kong and Deathborn, in that they don't stand up well to rereads, as if it has ended up more surface than substance. Ultimately, I dislike this set, but I do admire it's bold look into the vechile genre and the attempt at the concept.[/collapse]

[collapse="Getocoolaid"]GRUESOME TWOSOME
Wacky Races is probably my favorite classic cartoon, maybe my favorite cartoon in general. So uh, I squee'd a bit when I saw this. With that out of the way, lets get to the set itself.

One...I think that it's a little to big to really be...viable on smaller stages. Ya know, the ones that most competitive matches take place on. I'm quite fine with the weight, actually, I just feel like the scale could have been condensed. Maybe the width of 1.25 Bowser and as tall as Ganondorf at it's tallest? Not a gigantic change, and this is nitpicking at it's finest, but seriously, that's ****ing huge. Other than that, I like the way the Racers are actually put into the fight, with the continued tweaking of the Beezwax formula to fit the vehicle.

Now to the ACTUAL set. I like the use of the Dragon here, especially the Neutral special, it's a clever use of one of the Twosome's signature tricks. The side special snake coiling is broken as hell, though. Seriously, you can build up like 50% damage in under two seconds if it's timed right, which is horrifying, especially since it'll usually take somewhere in that ballpark to actually do that amount of damage to them. Besides that, I really like the way the snakes are used as protection of both the dragon and replacement wheels, and with the wheels being destructible, you take away some of the incredible OPness of the set. I like the spider web, too, with it able to make some seriously annoying traps that can be moved around with the Dragon's neck and all.

Onto the grab game...I don't see the point of the Forward Throw, it's got about the same use as the Side Special and, besides MAYBE making it easier to wrap a foe with the snake, i probably wouldn't use it often. The back throw I actually really like, as it has a good use: spacing the foe away from you and giving you time to actually do the ridiculous amount of setup necessary. I like the use of the ghost on the down throw, especially considering you can use it in the air, so no complaints there, aside from maybe making them a bit too good at gimping the foe.

I like the dragon's firebreath as a camping tool, leading to the very odd combination of vehicular combat and aerial camping genres, though I'm not complaining. It's certainly got a Banbollow-ish feel to it, this move. As does the F-air, which I actually particularly like if for no other reason for the ridiculous amount of stuff you can do with it, along with the strangely natural interaction with the firebreath. I like the U-Air basically for the purpose of having a move that can finally **** with the foes you probably have caught up in the moving net that is the dragons neck with spider-web. Smokescreen is smokescreen, decent use for it here. The Bair is okay, too.

To the smashes (god, this is a long moveset), the Tornado is a neat little trap for the foes in the air, and a nice juggling tool for the two. I like the strategy with the dragon, especially with all the traps and such that can be put forth with him. I particularly love the rain cloud, so many uses for it it's not even funny. The D-Smash seems a bit unnecessary, not really feeling it flow with the rest of the set apart from arbitrary mind games with the F-Smash.

The tilts are here, and we're at the last move section (seriously, this set is a behemoth). The Jab and F-tilt are fine attacks, I'm actually quite the fan of the F-Tilt and it's mind-gamey approaching ways. The U-Tilt is a rehash of the bedsheets, an unnecessary re-use of the sheets since, as a ground move, takes away a large portion of the usefulness of that throw, particularly the gimping, I don't really like the idea of stacking sheets, especially with the smokescreen. It's a fine interaction/combination, but one that's seriously broken as hell. Down Tilt is a grab. Okay.

I do quite like the set overall, though I wish there were MORE traps (Snakes, Web, Bedsheets...there's not too much in the way of actual traps beyond those three), especially since I like the idea of a kind of movable net filled with traps, and I do quite like the strange amount of aerial focus of the character. Other than that, my one complaint is just how absurdly broken the set itself is, even without all the knowledge of the interactions as a player: If you lose even one stock as the two, you don't deserve to play competitively, thanks to their constant hitbox, absurdly broken snake trap, and ridiculous weight. Sure, you can stop their movement for a little while, but they can just ****ing fly as soon as that happens anyway, and repair it quite easily too. However, I'd like to emphasize I -DO- like the set, especially as a big Wacky Races fan. The reason the comment was so long is because of the length of the set - if I didn't type this out while consciously thinking about it, I would have forgotten so much later. [/collapse]

[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Gruesome Twosome
Unlike the previous two sets, it's hard to say that Gruesome Twosome doesn't catch the reader's attention. It provides a lot of crazy concepts throughout the entire set, like a raincloud trap that can become a very complex nuisance if the foe doesn't climb on the absolutely massive opposing vehicle to destroy it, or a somewhat simplified version of Banbollow's wire with the dragon building up flames in it's neck. Plus you go out of your way to try and make this apparently horrifyingly character beatable, with the ability to deny it it's movement and utterly ridiculous free flight and source of fire. Pretty much every input introduces something new and apparently fun to this character's game, so on that premise I should like it right?

...well I really hate to say it, but no. I think the set ultimately made the mistake of trying to do way too much and ended up screwing itself over, especially in the balance department. The dragon's neck I don't think is so impossibly durable that the foe will never take it down(150HP sounds like a lot, but on a static hurtbox that large it's not going to take long to take out), but moreso it's pretty easy to keep that thing out of the foe's reach until the time is right, then rain down hellfire on them. It's not like the Twosome desperately need the dragon to be working for them at all times, because they have the bedsheets and snakes to keep the foe away. The snakes on their own are pretty much completely obscene with the fact that they probably won't die until they get in a hit on the foe, at which point you can just drop a bed sheet or another snake on them to gradually increase the amount of hell the foe is in until they can no longer do literally anything. And we may as well just add that you have spiderweb set ups to hold the foe still and the sky is fast becoming a storm of fire and tornadoes, and the fact that your opponent is a 40 Weight giant moving hitbox that can fly, and the snakes can repair and protect one of the set's main weaknesses with hilarious ease. I mean, how are wheels that are so easy to defend and replace being destructible a sufficient weakness? I feel a bit bad for not pointing out this balance stuff when I initially previewed it, but it's one of those things that you kind of realize when thinking about it. This set is frankly far more powerful than Garbage Man, as at least Garbage Man had weak points that weren't so bloody easy to defend and didn't dominate the battlefield to the degree the Twosome does.

And for as much as I do appreciate some of the concepts in the set, sometimes it feels awkward as a member of the vehicle genre because it is extremely rare the vehicle mechanics are brought up in set. I mean... you can place traps on yourself to move them around which is basically the point of the set as you say in the playstyle, but what of all the momentum stuff and the character's massive size and solid nature. That stuff just feels like it's all there to serve as a way to make this character even more obscenely broken. I appreciate when you do acknowledge it in the Nair and FSmash, but even in the FSmash it doesn't really flow into the rest of the set to modify your momentum slightly or trip yourself on the water. As for the boss mode since you did bring it up to Froy, it's not that the set is so much bland as a boss moreso that the set was designed to be 1v1, with 3v1 being very clearly an afterthought. And frankly, this character doesn't work in 1v1, nor do it's concepts really flow in 3v1. Which is kind of a shame, because it is pretty loaded with cool stuff that sounds satisfying to play with.[/collapse]

[collapse="JOE!"]GRUESOME TWOSOME = 0 / 10
  1. -Basic movement and stats are incredibly awkward for a playable entity. Stages like Yoshi's Island would be just impossible.
  2. -6 seconds of flight on an otherwise immovable object.
  3. -Snakes to incredible damage while needing amazing commitment to shake off.
  4. -The spider has no need to ever move around when you can instantly cover 66% of Battlefield in a web that IMMOBILIZES EVERYONE.
  5. -Webs and snakes and dragons take more time to fight an already mighty thing to try and beat, if it doesn't just fall off and die from trying to move.
  6. -Grab game is brutal with the ability to extend your grab range like, infinitely with no real downside.
  7. -For being a car, the dragon + sheer range of most things negate the need of ever like... moving at all.
  8. -What good is a smokescreen for something that fills 2/3rds of playable space on any given stage?
  9. -Fsmash is all you need.
  10. -By this point I feel the set has nothing really redeemable...
While I can assume the intention behind a vehicle based set is good... the implementation is just... why?[/collapse]

by n88_2004


Ultron's introduction is way cool, n8. No matter what issues the set might have, it certainly sets the mood, a powerful image with a stronge introduction and a well written character explanation. Now then, on to the set.

The set has some quite good bits, I feel, and one of them is the Neutral Special, a move I am quite fond of. It's a spacer, but it is a really cool spacer, with a lot of options defensively and offensively and, combined with his 3v1 nature, seems like it would be great fun to face or use and molds well into Ultron's playstyle and character. To me, it is the high point of the set. I also like a few other things in the set too: the explosion of your drone's can be used interestingly with chain explosions, the grab itself is somewhat interesting, I like the down tilt and I also enjoyed the Dash Attack. And there is nice bits of flow here, with the Side Special and Down Special and the more basic standards and aerials...

...But I feel the flow is the primary issue with the set, as while it does HAVE flow, two areas that desperately need it, the Down Special and Side Special, don't have much that flows well into them, which drags down the set. I would have liked to have seen more uses between synchronised drones or the Side Special overall...though I don't like the Side Special much, as it seems both slightly odd in terms of usage and a bit TOO strong. I also wished the drones exploded a bit earlier (80%?), as 100% seems a bit harsh.

But overall, the set is good, but it's just lacking from being more than just that: good. If it had some more flow, I could easily see this set being much more loved, as it has some pretty good concepts for a boss.[/collapse]

I will say this set started off pretty promising, with the prospect of creating huge quantities of minions that function as copies of Ultron minus the specials, and then the specials bar the recovery are all pretty cool. I particularly like the Side Special, if solely because the prospect of making the foe's perform specific attacks to sow distrust between partners is great in 3v1, as well as making the AIs of your robotic partners programmable. The problem with this set for me though, comes down to 2 things. It's one of those sets where it introduces a lot of cool stuff in the specials and then the standards are just bland and don't really ever play into it. There is some okay stuff with him being able to use the FSmash laser to build up some massive damage and set off drone explosions while piercing through all your enemies, but a lot of the moves don't really serve any actual purpose and don't feel they'd be interesting to use in the context of a large quantity of clones.

Aside from that, the set just had a wide array of things that annoyed me slightly, and they do add up by the end of the set. I know shields aren't that useful on a 3v1 boss... except for the fact the fact that foe's might be preoccupied with your absolutely ludicrous minion army and you'll be engaging them 1v1 every once in a while, at which point a shield would be something Ultron could definently use. Losing access to your shield for another tool is kind of similar to my problem with the otherwise cool Side Special too, in that it's used to both reprogram your drones and also quickly destroy them... but that kind of feels like a waste of drones. I mean, I'm getting them to do what I want so this means I have to kill them? Seems counter intuitive. I guess that does help to balance out how obnoxiously powerful this set is even by 3v1 standards though. I mean this is a character who is creating a clone of his already powerful self with a few nerfs every 4.5 seconds(so in the course of a stock which I would guess would last at least a minute against this guy, you'd have to mow through literally 12+ clones), which for that matter create a massive explosion upon death that will stun the foes and push them into KO range for the main Ultron to easily do the honors. It's stuff that could be number crunched, but what is also scary is against so many opponents Ultron can just disable most of their defensive options. What the heck happened to using actual strategy to make sure your attacks hit?[/collapse]

[collapse="Katapultar"]Been meaning to get around to this guy since I tend to like your more meaningful sets. it's an interesting tribute to Kang to make another powerful 3v1 Marvel villain as the finale of Nateska, and while I was more hoping he'd be a regular 1v1 character like with Dormammu I actually looked up some stuff on the character today via Wikipedia and it seems he's a regular user of the Encephalo Ray and is more cunning than I gave him credit for. Thus, it makes sense why you'd want to give him a 3v1 given it'd be otherwise difficult to represent this character trait.

Beyond the menacing "mind control" and consciousness shifting, Ultron seems a bit unsure of what he's wanting to do, especially since you haven't written a playstyle section yet (though you've shown us you plan to). It's hard enough to make a duplicate function without it getting overly awkward, and it makes sense for Ultron to command his drones, but automatically doing so on each attack feels as though it would break their attacking flow just for your sake when sometimes you wouldn't want that. There's a very easy solution to this however, and that's to pull off an Abra by having the player double-tap the input to make the drones use the same move. The drone's attack would obviously be out-of-sync with Ultron's, but that'd actually be interesting since you could knock one foe into the drone's attack for extra damage or scare other foes. Heck, you could even make it so Ultron can use another input during one of his attacks to make a drone use that, leading to an endless amount of combinations and so you're not just incredibly limited to being forced to make the Jab and N-air or F-tilt and F-air work together with each other (even though they're not actually that forced). I can't be sure whether you planned out the possible interactions with these chain-inputs, yet it's for that reason I'd like to see a playstyle section slapped onto the end of the set.

What mainly appealed to me about this set were the drone interactions, especially the fun F-Smash in which you just shoot through a bunch of them, even if the impending explosion leads to some semi-broken hitstun (hitstun that would look really cool to pull off with a ton of drones, nonetheless). Though Side Special may only come across as being a way to keep foes away from each other, I greatly appreciate it for being atmospheric and portraying an important aspect of Ultron's character that would otherwise never be shown, somewhat similar to Scratch's D-throw - making the foe use an attack of your choice on a drone to have it explode is interesting, yet it also seems unfair given you could just make them use a really laggy attack and exploit it with your fastest attack of which the drone will also use due to synching. Even worse when the effect won't wear off until the foe dies (presumably) so if they're hit by the beam even once they'll have to stay the hell away from a drone, which is pretty hard what with Ultron's Neutral Special. Aside from those few quibbles and the eventual realization that you can have infinite drones onstage, Ultron isn't broken and has a simple enough base moveset, though I'm not too sure what he wants to accomplish with it outside of drone interactions.

I guess you could say I'd like to hear more about your intentions and how the set should play, especially given the plans for a non-boss mode. At least for now the set works, which is good.[/collapse]

[collapse="JOE!"]ULTRON = 7.5 / 10
  1. +Nspec is a cool tool in tangent with pushing and pulling foes through a group of drones.
  2. +Side B is a fun way to break up teamwork for a 3v1 set.
  3. +Drone gameplay in general is very fun to think about with the ability to Sync up. And more fun to imagine the strategy of the team facing him with how to divide the approach between him and the drones.
  4. +Stats seem well balanced for 3v1 combat.
  5. +Ability to grab 2 / 3 of the opponents at once.
  6. +Destroying your own Drones to create explosive hitboxes is very villainous and fun.
  7. +The throws and smashes are all great fun when combined with the hectic environment he creates.
  8. Uair and Fair seem a little "big" for just aerial attacks.
  9. -Synchronizing seems to belittle the ability to program your drones when the range for it to occur means you wont often have them doing their own thing unless you literally hang back and do nothing but stay up with Up B. There also seems to be little incentive to take over a drone with down B...
  10. -3v1 only, skews balance a bit if you try to imagine him otherwise.
Ultron is a good set that is held back mainly by it's limitation to 3v1, and some hiccups with how you actually go about controlling your Drones. Side B is great vs opponents,but on drones you Synch up anyways. Down B seems kinda weird to use when Ultron Prime is always safer just Synching and attacking himself. Other than that it's groovy.[/collapse]


by n88_2004

I don't enjoy having to say this, but Selene left me feeling disappointed past its mid-point. It's a depressing feeling getting halfway through a moveset only to see every move afterward sharply decreasing in length, explanation and passion. You make absolutely no attempt to sell the aerial game as anything other than Brawl aerials that exist to fill inputs. That's not a great way to end a moveset. It doesn't give the reader a lot of drive to understand or piece together what they read (a problem that is compounded when there is no playstyle explanation to help them). You need to put some effort into explaining the utility of even the most basic of attacks. Even if you're in a hurry. Even if you just want to push past those inputs.
There was also the teasing promise of Golems, relegated to the nethers of a Final Smash. Of course, I completely admire your restraint in not making Selene a summoner moveset (as you say, it's not within her character to create minions when there are other ways to win). But those few mentions of the golems almost seem to be baiting the reader to assume that summons would appear and become relevant at some point.

Phew, I really shouldn't dwell on the negative like that. It's not fair.
It was a little tricky for me to piece together the incentives and playstyle that drives Selene, since the vampirism mechanic takes some interesting twists and turns that you neglect to give enough fanfare.
For example, the primary way Selene loses life-force, is through her fastest inputs; her standards and aerials. This makes for an interesting dynamic where using the most reliable and simplest moves (the ones you'd use when in a tight spot) actually weakens Selene, forcing her to play conservatively aggressive whenever she has any life-force to abuse. That's a great way to passively encourage more active and risky play.

There's an obvious wall game here, with Selene being able to dart back and forth between the two sides, sniping the foe with a side smash/Up special, or taking advantage of their clumsy attempt to scale the wall. Having a wall obviously helps land her grabs, while the foe is entirely unable to turn the tables on Selene (due to her ability to just phase through). I would perhaps go as far to say that Selene's walls have no downside to them, and considering their considerable size and Selene's intransience to them, there's nothing really stopping her from putting them everywhere.

It's difficult to point out anything major that I enjoyed about the moveset, not because I didn't enjoy it on any level, but because there's a lot of good little things that coalesce into solid whole. So the rest of this comment will be just some of the little things I liked about the set;

I like how you avoid the problem of her moveset being bottlenecked through her grab-game, by offering a secondary move for grabbing the foe. I like the sensation and impact of slamming the foe into a pillar via her shadow form. I like how physically splitting up a match using pillars as dividers, is a neat and simple way of showing the manipulative side of Selene's character, along with all the various moves that allow her to put space between her and her foe. I like the collage image at the start of the moveset that covers her history as a character, and makes her look self conceited. I like the seperation of her grab and her throws, it really drives home the importance of landing grabs. I like that in bigger matches, Selene can make an opponent into her "slave", via a status that punishes them severely if they attack her.[/collapse]


First off, it gets REALLY annoying every time you say to refer to the image at the top, as I have to keep scrolling up to see what it is.

Secondly, the grab is seperate from the throws. Why? Just...just why?

Thirdly, I don't really like the moveset. While it has the barest bones of a playstyle, it is never expanded beyond the basic essentials, with the basic moves never moving on beyond basic moves to the realm of any kind of real flow or playstyle. The vampirism on the grab doesn't really feel all that great nor taken advantage of all that well, so I can't say I like that, and the Specials feel bad rather than good, with terraforming that is actively bad, a Down Special which I cannot understand using, an Up Special that isn't too great and a Neutral Special that sounds like generic stun or otherwise not that great. And none of it gets much taken advantage of.

What else is there to say?[/collapse]


by n88_2004

[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Not Actually A Hugo Set

Seriously, all throughout Koopa Troopa I thought this was a Hugo set because it kept saying "Koopa Troopas".

As for the set, it's very boring, with inputs that are generic but also do not flow, although it does have a neat little idea of putting them on the 3 end of a 3v1 matchup and working together, taking advantage of the Koopa Troopa's classic hiding in a shell to pinball around. Unfortunately, the pinballing is little and underdeveloped, so it never blossoms into something all that great. With the size of the attacks and the fact they are just generic unflow-y ones, there is not really anything else to say. Sorry for the small comment.[/collapse]


by Conren

[collapse="TheKalmarKing"]ALL HAIL LORD MAGNEMITE

I must admit, at first I really wondered if it was a jokeset or a funny-but-serious moveset. Then I remembered it's April Fools Day and I laughed.

Obviously it's pretty similar to your original Magnemite, who was not that bad to begin with. The magnetic effects look fun to me and solid overall. The minions interactions are not bad either, but some moves are just... weird, like back air. I think I understand the interactions, but it would be useless most of the time; also, wouldn't it be simpler to say "Lord Magnemite can wall-jump on his magnetized walls"?

Of course it's not a potentially Top 50 set, but as an April Fools Day set, I like it.[/collapse]

[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Magnemite 2: Magnemite Harder

Lord Magnemite, to me, signals a marked improvement over Magnemite, even if it is an April's Fools Day set. So good to see you make another set Conren!

What makes Lord Magnemite a marked improvement from it's predecessor's? A fair deal, I feel: First off is the Specials, which show some nice effort put into them. The Neutral Special is the best example of this: Lock-On in the original Magnemite was a fairly automatic beam, while Lord Magnemite's crosshairs are far less automatic, in addition to the fact that by expanding the magnetization to non-damaged objects you can create tons of more exciting situations. The Down Special is itself not interesting, but the fact it summons basically a full moveset in Magnemite and he can have two is, I don't think any moveset has considered footstooling off minions for a recovery boost, which I like. Magnet Bomb and Magnet Shield are also improved in their own ways. And Down tilt, while underdetailed for the sake of comedy, does seem to show off inklings of thinking about cool moves and some nice description of the animation is good.

Downsides to the set? The joke about underdetailing leaves the set underdetailed of course and the flow is sparse, though there and moreso than Magnemite, and there are of course some moves I dislike, like BAir...but then again, BAir is meant to be a joke. Really, one could argue a fair deal of what I dislike is a consequence of it being an April Fools set, with the other being flow and the like.

So, ultimately, I felt it was an improvement...but you'll notice it I put it at a 5. The reason for that is reading this and seeing the changes you made to Magnemite makes me feel I probably should have put Magnemite at 5 last contest, so Lord Magnemite will be a high five, which would be a higher five than Magnemite! Continuity mantained.[/collapse]

[collapse="JOE!"]LORD MAGNEMITE = 5 / 10
  1. +Hilarious.
  2. +Specials set the stage for the playstyle nicely and work very well with each other. Magnetize with Polarity mechanics is brilliant.
  3. +Ftilt is a cool target to use magnetize with.
  4. Down tilt has no function if there aren't minions?
  5. Dair has no function if there arent minions?
  6. Many attacks under detailed.
  7. More could be done with minions aside from a few moves here and there, esp when said moves only seem to function with them out?
  8. -Mirrored Nair and Jab, that both are projectile standards... (pet peeve)
  9. -Up Air is a pseudo recovery instead of an attack? Why would he need this if he flies?
  10. -Many moves are overpowered in % and KB for their ability to zero-in on targets.
L.M is a fun set to read, and while he has some great special moves to work with, I feel the rest of the set doesn't take as much advantage of it as he could have. Bonus points for the hilarity tho.[/collapse]


by Getocoolaid

[collapse="Junahu"]Shadow The Hedgehog
There's a sort of concomitant attack-flow going on here that's easy to grasp, incidental to the business of explaining the moves, but there all the same. I find this sort of thing more rewarding than movesets that explain their playstyles and interactions in patronising detail. Of course, you do still need to work on writing playstyle sections that don't bury the best parts of the sets they're trying to sell. The way you write it, Shadow's aerials don't exist and he has no business being up in the air. [Geto has since editted the playstyle section]
And there is MUCH in the way of setting up for extended aerial play. Chaos snap slots in well with Shadow's aerials, giving him innate control over the flow of battle in mid-air and opening the potential for follow ups and feints that no other character would be capable of. In the end, that's what makes this moveset uniquely rewarding to play as.
Giving him a chargeable attack as his main KO option is a particularly slick choice, as it forces him to find time for himself, making him shun others, or set-up specfically to buy enough alone time to charge the attack. I like what that says about Shadow as a character, and I approve of giving the player the option to enact such behaviour.
I worry that the moveset's mission of giving Shadow his own identity forces him to do some strange things. But then again, I'm one of the few folks who enjoyed Sonic's predisposition to curling into a ball for every attack, so I'd naturally be put-off by a hedgehog spewing set-up and projectile hell.
  • A Backstory biography rarely ever helps the reader enjoy a character, and this rings especially true for Shadow. "I wish Shadow had more plot" said no-one ever.
  • As a general rule, chargable moves such as Samus' Neutral B and ROB's Down B, aren't charged by holding the button, but rather by tapping it and then by either rolling left/right to store the charge, or by pressing B again to use it. Attacks that use hold inputs, such as Diddy Kong's Neutral B, are fired when the button is released.
  • Chaos Control is numerically rediculous; a 3 SBU diameter space that slows everything (but himself) down to 1/10 of its normal speed.. that lasts for 15 whole seconds. Even if Shadow couldn't create three of these things this would be broken, and intrinsically infuriating to play against. Coupled with the throws which are themselves perfect set-ups (and having Sonic's Speed, grabs aren't exactly going to be super hard to land), Shadow sounds obscenely unbalanced.
  • Super Shadow still has his inhibitor rings. Don't have your cake and eat it too[/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]Original The Character

Shadow is a moveset that is deceptively simple, but actually quite enjoyable. Combo characters are difficult to make enjoyable, and in a way harder when it is a Sonic character at that. I have to start my comment unfortunately with the observation that Chaos Control is terrifyingly, obscenely strong. 20% speed is slower than players behave when affected by a timer item, and he can put three of these areas down? They last for ten seconds? And on top of that the 'nerf' that they have is low knockback that makes it even harder to escape? That's too good by any measurement, and the problem is more pervasive than just a couple of lower numbers. The move should either last so briefly that an opponent inside it can't be completely demolished by it, or take long enough to start ip that Shadow can't easily get opponents into it. As Junahu mentioned, he's already tied with Sonic for speed, he doesn't exactly struggle with maneuvering and punishing anyways.

Now I can move on to the part that I really do enjoy, the combo and projectile game. Having the fastest character also have the slowest projectile allows for some crazy maneuvers and possibilities, especially with the hitstun the moves have. I do think that having unlimited out is too much though, especially since he can outrun other players and throw them out all over the stage, then rush in for attacks. Heck, the projectiles are also too slow... Ganon walk speed is slow enough that players who spot dodge will still be caught in the move.

The way it all interacts with mobility and his combo options is what makes it so cool. Up special cancelling into smashes was a brilliant move, and gives him a very unique feel, using charging moves while quickly moving into range. It's very fun to imagine, and funner still, I would think, to play. Warping around with a forward smash or down special for a KO feels challenging yet rewarding. You do a good job of limiting the power of his standards whilr still feelinf like powerful, useful moves, which is especially apparent with the air game. His throw game is a bit strong in the context of chaos control, his forward throw inexcusably so (throw into chaos control, receive five seconds of free attack time!) I really feel that the move is so strong it undermines the far more interesting premise of feints and stun as you try to pull out one of your limited kill moves. If you work in a solution to some of these balance issues, I'd really like this set, but for now its merely my favorite out of all that have been posted so far.[/collapse]
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]All Hail Shadow

I actually didn't mind the introduction, but I can see why others would.

I didn't think of it when you previewed it to me, but Junahu is right, charging moves like that are usually not held. Oh well.

The combination of Chaos Spear and Chaos Control, to me, forms the crux of the set. Shadow can create zones of Chaos Control and launch Chaos Spears at foes near them or into them, causing them to slow to a crawl and become almost like slowly moving traps, before using their properties of high hitstun and low knockback inside the zone to really put the hurt on foe in a somewhat combo manner, but because of the way it is set up DI is still in play and Shadow has little in the way of "true" combos. Chaos Punish is a good way to add onto this with it's different projectile properties that non-the-less work well with the Spear. He can even use Chaos Snap to teleport himself around for excellent chasing and escaping!

The problems with my set boil down to the fact it's flow seems small, as neither the projectile game or melee-combo game seem particularly developed, the latter in particular seeming a bit small despite there being on enough moves it wouldn't have to be, some numer crunching issues (Shadow's attacks are largely very weak, with the exception of the Smashes being fine, Chaos Control should slow less), and a fair few moves I just don't like: Up Throw should deal at least a little damage, Forward Throw stunning for a second is very annoying on a throw and I feel like you could have done much better than a drag down Up Aerial (even a random flipkick!). The fact that the Spear/Control combo isn't mentioned in the playstyle section is dissapointing. It is a nice looking set at least, even if it is not great.

So overall, I like the concepts presented here, but they simply did not flesh out well and mold together into something more than a set with some interesting ideas. A decent first set this contest, Geto![/collapse]

[collapse="Katapultar"]I meant to comment this set shortly after it was posted, but I got caught up in starting my own (which is good in a way since I see the set has been edited since then). Cutting to the chase, the first thing I'd like to address is how unrealistically slow a Chaos Spear moves. It feels very forced just to cash in on the potential exploitations when surrounding evidence would say otherwise; when one thinks "arrow" and "shooting forward" they usually think of high-speed, and furthermore a Chaos Spear actually travels fast in the games. You have Chaos Control if you want slower projectiles anyway, whereby in its current state a Chaos Spear might as well be static (it may as well move quickly when you have a way to slow projectiles in the first place). I just really don't like how the slowness of a Chaos Spear conflicts with the high-speed feel a Sonic/Shadow set should invoke.

From there the set spreads out various physical and magicy attacks for Shadow, somewhat leaning towards the latter (his 3-hit combo attack from Shadow the Hedgehog would have also been welcome as his jab). I was a little unsure of what to think in regards to this, but upon taking another look I realized you included some of Shadow's more iconic stuff in the aerials, the Homing Attack in the N-air, kung-fu for F-air and slide attack for Dash Attack. I can honestly say Chaos Snap is an absolutely perfect recovery and move for Shadow since it brings back memories of the StH's Opening Cutscene and lets him choose whether he wants to fight up-close or from afar. I just wish Chaos Spear could be used as a quick projectile to pelt enemies with on demand and just have Chaos Control stop projectiles inside it so you can fire em all out at once in a cool fashion, serving the same purpose they do in the set's current state. Sure you have Homing Attack and high ground speed to reach the opponent, but it'd feel nice to have a spammy projectile. The projectile-stopping could even serve to balance enemies being slowed inside or to temporarily counter their projectiles, as well as helping with the U-Smash as you suck in a ton of projectiles coming your way.

Overall I'd say Shadow's a decent set in my books if one that could use some improvement - it certainly wouldn't take much to get me to like it even more, though we can't be sure if the changes would please others like DM so don't mind me. Also the basketball image at the bottom of the set is pure WIN.[/collapse]

[collapse="n88_2004"]Shadow, like others have pointed out, certainly isn't short on compelling ideas. Slow-moving projectiles are always interesting, and time-slows are something we don't see all that much of (I think. That didn't become a thing while I was on semi-hiatus, did it?). Shadow feels like he'd be a lot of fun to play around with, particularly in terms of his Specials and Smashes. On the other hand, he doesn't feel very much like Sonic. I'm not a Sonic buff by any means, but I feel like he has more in common with the Blue Blur than you make use of here. I feel like Shadow would also benefit from being able to shake up the speed on his Chaos Spears and get a fast-moving variant, or have some other form of fast-moving projectile that's less limited than his UTilt and FTilt ones. Also, (Joe or somebody jump in and correct me if I'm wrong) as I recall, there is no difference in power between an uncharged and a partially charged Smash, so it doesn't really matter that Shadow can partially charge his Smashes during his teleport.

Anyway, I do like the set overall. It's not my favorite of the contest, but it has some great ideas, and is pretty darn fun to imagine in action. Good work.[/collapse]

[collapse="JOE!"]SHADOW = 6 / 10
  1. +Chaos control is handled well for it's effect, allowing Shadow to combo but not necessarily KO.
  2. +Having a super slow projectile on such a fast character is a great concept.
  3. +Up B's interaction with smash charge is a great mind game.
  4. +Cool throws, even if Uthrow might be better going a tad shorter distance? It's fine as-is tho.
  5. Ftilt feels like it should be a "Smash" version of Side B
  6. Usmash is kind of awkward in how it sucks up energy projectiles....
  7. Dsmash seems a tad too powerful in versatility when his mobility derives from Up b and general speed, unlike Sonic who's specials come together to make him extremely mobile.
  8. Fsmash and Down B feel like they have too much range, even if you have to charge them. Smart Bomb radius can be about the playable surface of Battlefield when positioned right.
  9. -*Shadow* having a Drag-down uair.... called Drag Down. Also, Fair does pitiful damage for the amount of hits.
  10. -Nair borders on being a special... perhaps if it always had like a 1SBU range and didn't decay, meaning you have to stick close-ish still but making it not as powerful as Sonic's Homing Attack?
Shadow feels almost right as a Sonic off-shoot, as he should be, and is in general characterized very well. His downfall comes with a few awkward inputs here and there where it feels like you tried to incorporate Special moves where they shouldn't be as "special", and a few questionable points of balance.[/collapse]

by FalKoopa
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Hammer Orphan

Welcome to MYM! Glad to see you've already got a set out this early, FatKoopa!

Something you can always consider while making a set is if it makes sense for the character. For example, the Down Special: Why is this Hammer Bro able to bulk up into a Sledge Bro? Does it make sense for Hammer Bro to do so? And if so, perhaps instead of being for a single move, it could be for more: Maybe he could be like Zelda/Sheik or change his stats by switching between Sledge Bro and Hammer Bro, for example. And the Down Smash: Does it make sense for Hammer Bro to be able to stomp the ground to send out waves of fire? Personally, I do not think so.

The playstyle here is sparse, but his types of hammer throwing could be used to start a basis of one, and the flow is even more sparse, as there is little in the way of overarching gameplans being worked into. When making a set, try considering the ways you could make the character work towards a goal or have moves work well together: For example, maybe Hammer Bro throws a hammer really high up (or multiple hammers), so he gets a chance to swoop in and try to hit the foe while they have to worry about the hammer dropping.

Not as good of a newcomer set as Jinbe, but certainly not the worst I've seen. I hope you'll post more sets, FatKoopa![/collapse]

[collapse="Junahu"]I think everyone has vivid memories about tackling these menaces as a child. You can never just keep running and jump over a hammer bro, you always have to stop and assess the situation. Personally, I always feared that a Hammer Bro would decide to jump just as I make my move, intercepting me in midair and killing me.
The Hammer Bro is really the only classic Mario bros enemy to create that sort of terrifying tension.

As far as I can tell, you seem to have a good moveset going here. Littering the sky with hammers, and being a really scrappy foe in close-quarters, it's the kind of character who forces opponents to space themselves effectively and punishes anyone who fails to do so. There's a neat twist in that you're encouraged to do everything you can to make your hammers hit the opponent, even in situations where it would be more efficient to simply throw another hammer.
Basically, your moveset makes players obsess over their hammers, which is a cool way of making the player 'feel' like a hammer bro. I love that.
I personally found his Down special to be pretty cool too. He fattens up and performs a stomp, which is a nice little reference to not only the Sledge Bro, but also to Bowser himself. But I do wish the Hammer Bro would remain fat afterwards for a little while, increasing his weight and fallspeed or something. Having him bulk up and then immediately revert back to normal after the attack is a little too abrupt for me.
The Up Special is neat. But with it encouraging the player to get the high ground and keep the foe on the floor, there's not much he can actually do there. He seems a lot more comfortable when he's below the opponent, when the Hammer Bros in the games are a threat no matter which height they're at. I wish there was a balanced way to make this platform more permanent, so the Hammer Bro could actually use it.
I'd reccommend giving Up-Smash excellent vertical range, instead of "low range". And I'd like to see his Down Smash sending fire dropping through fallthrough platforms. Speaking of the Down Smash, the animation is a little awkward. Considering how lean the Hammer Bro is, it sounds odd how he could send flaming shockwaves by stomping with only one foot.
I think Hammer Bro needs aerials that are good for punishing and juggling. None of the aerials you have seem all that powerful, and having a stall-then-fall for the Down Air is a bit redundant when you have a similar move for the Down Special.[/collapse]

[collapse="Getocoolaid"]Hammer Bro
So, Hammer Bro! Welcome to MYM FatKoopa, we're happy to have you. For starters, a descriptive stats section is totally fine! If you ever want to use numbers, there's a link in the OP comparing all of the different stats and such of the actual Brawl Characters to one another.

Starting off with the specials, the side special is a good move to get the feel of the Hammer Bro down immediately, though to be totally honest I feel like this move and the Neutral Special could have been combined into one attack. As you have the down special already a shout-out to the Sledge Bro, why not have the side special be the Boomarang bro, or something of that nature? Two very similar moves on the specials is usually not too great, but it certainly feels "Hammer Bro.The Up Special is great, it's good outside the box thinking on your part, I just wish it was explained a bit better, as now it's fairly confusing. Good set of specials, though!

Standards are fairly generic directional attacks, as are the smashes, aerials, and throws. What's interesting here is not in those attacks, it's in the specials, particularly the Neutral and Up. When you think to write a character, it helps to envision what the character does and what kind of Playstyle they would have, then building the moveset around that, instead of making the attacks and piecing a playstyle from that. There is a lot of potential for you, definitely: you've got creativity and a good knowledge of this character. Another thing I would suggest is proofreading through your moveset before it's posted: a good spellcheck will do wonders. Overall, though, valiant first effort, and I look forward to see you improve in the future![/collapse]

[collapse="JOE!"]HAMMER BRO. = 6 / 10
  1. +Up B is a very creative means of recovery and stage alteration.
  2. +Nspec is an interesting projectile, getting stronger the more it hits. Does the cycle re-set after the 4th or do you just keep throwing 13% ones?
  3. +Side Smash is a nice use of the smash-charge concept, becoming a different move when (near) max charge.
  4. +Grabbing foes with the Hammer's hook, Using the hammer as part of a spinning-shell Dash Attack, and throwing the foe like his hammer are all very creative.
  5. Dair's ability to be cancelled, while cool, seems like it could be part of Down B? Especially seeing as he randomly bulks up as referance to the "big hammer bro" without staying as it...
  6. Fspec seems redundant with Nspec.
  7. Throws are very under-detailed compared to the rest of the set.
  8. While the natural shell-protection is neat, it's also just kinda "there". Does he gain Super Armor when fully shelled?
  9. -Moves are a bit on the stale side considering the array of tools hammer bros have been known to use, and doesn't work with the fact he can turn into a Bulky Bro. at all outside of 1 move.
  10. -On the flip side, Dsmash is very awkward as he creates fire, but unlike any way even Fire Bros do.
Hammer Bro. pleasantly surprised me to say the least. He has a solid foundation, but with untapped potential given how you -do- touch on the other Bro abilities such as Fire and Size, even wooden hammer but don't really go anywhere with them and opt for very simple moves. He would definitely benefit from some TLC in the creativity department and possibly altering some inputs here and there, but for what it's worth you did a great job considering the character.[/collapse]

by LycorisalKnight

[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Axel the Dork Hero

Haven't seen you around, but n8 says you've been 'ere before, so welcome (back) to (Corneria) MYM!

Anyway, as for the certainly seem to like the character and that shows in the moveset, given mentions of Axel's awesomeness of awesomniscity. That's good! Movesets for people you like is good.

Unfortunately, the moveset is not too good. Side Special seems very awkward...I imagine it is a game reference of some kind, but the fact that it looks and feels really awkward does not help, and it seems like it'd mess with characterization (Why is Ganondorf taking a stunt fall for this guy?). Invisible Laser is fine, at least, references an amusing moment. There's a fair deal of other moves I do not enjoy, such as the F-Smash (Why does it make Stunt Punch stronger?), D-Throw, and to an extent D-Smash. And I get what you were going for with the grab, but it just...feels really bad, I am sorry to say, it doesn't work all that well with his game and sounds kind of OP.

One thing I do like, though, is the Down Special, which offers a variety of attacking options and does so in quite an interesting manner. I wish the moveset took more advantage of it, though, which it...doesn't. The NSpec is also a pretty decent minion. My recommendation? Read, write more, and think about how the moves work together: Why do these throws do anything for Axel, how does he use the air game compared to everything else (DAir actually felt good about this!) and so on. In short, add in more flow to a gameplan, and to an extent add more of a gameplan. Well...that and think about how your effects work on the foe more, I suppose, given stuff like the SSpec that feels weird as a move and on characters.

So yeah, some might like this, but I...I don't.[/collapse]

[collapse="Katapultar"]I got so excited when I saw a set for Axel, since Disgaea is my favorite video game franchise ever and Axel being such a badass. He was one my favorite characters and one I considered making a set for.

I don't really approve of Axel using Ze Flute to make people walk away from him, partially because it seems forced on the opponent and is a bit out-of-character for Axel to want to shoo people away (he's a celebrity, he should enjoy having people around him!). I do very much approve of Axel using minions, because as mentioned in Axel Mode it's Dark Hero-like to get others to do your work for you while you sit back (the hypnosis would get in the way of players wanting to summon a demon). The Rifle Demon is pretty fun in itself, and I enjoy the idea of it being able to go berserk and go against Axel, creating chaos and all. Also, Invisible Laser is win and a very fitting recovery for Axel's butt-monkey nature, though for visual indication it'd be cool if Axel called out "Invisible Laser!" when he's struck - I'd seriously love to spam the hell out of a recovery you can use repetitively at the cost of killing yourself. Down Special would be a very fun move, not just because it replaces the music with Axel's Theme but also the interesting depth within that'd be fun to mess around with, and it's effectiveness against a whole bunch of enemies around Axel.

The rest of the set shows some nice promise, with a hilarious slap that has some nice flow with the Rifle Demon or just plain messing with opponents. I do have some problems with the overall flow, though, which is a shame because there are some pretty cool ideas that mesh with Axel's character and mannerisms but don't mesh together that well. I get you can use the Rifle Demon as a turret while you approach the enemy and attack them or grab the enemy and hold them for a shot, but there's little purpose to moving away from the enemy given Axel has no projectiles and really that'll just leave the Demon ripe to go berserk. The urge to get in an enemy's face to attack them to prevent them from making your minion go berserk actually feels incredibly fitting for Axel, though in this case I guess it just kinda feels a bit redundant if you're just stunning the opponent in place to be shot by the same mediocre projectile over and over. In this case it might be nice if you had more control over the Rifle Demon, such as being able to use B to make it charge up a powerful shot when it's out and so on. Even some grab interactions or being able to deliberately provoke the Rifle Demon with your normal attacks would be fun (I can understand why you wouldn't be able to use it as a hostage, but still...), or maybe a projectile you could use while hiding behind it such as Axel playing his guitar to summon a lightning bolt ahead of him (somewhat like his Love Dynamite attack in the games). It could replace the awkward Side Special.

Overall I'll say you actually captured the spirit of the Dark Hero quite nicely and showed some great promise, using minions and dirty tricks I didn't think of, though there could be more to the Rifle Demon when it's the main threat in the set. Just giving the Rifle Demon more attention could make me like this set a fair bit.[/collapse]

[collapse="Junahu"]Right from the get-go I was bowled over by the enthusiasm you have for the Dark Hero. There hasn't been a moveset that starts with "This character is awesome" in a long time. It helps that the presentation of the moveset itself looks pleasingly crisp. It's clear you put a good deal of thought into Axel.

And that enthusiasm translates very well into a moveset that honestly sounds like it'd be really fun to play. There are plenty of attacks that feel satisfying to use, or just simply sound cool in some way.
Stunt Punch, beyond being an awesome move in its own right, feels like it actively wants you to use it on your Rifle Demon. Since it's not doing damage, the Rifle Demon won't get mad, and the explosion is a free shot at a KO against the opponent. I see both FrozenRoy and Katapultar are recommending you drop Stunt Punch and replace it with something else, but I sincerely hope you don't. It's just so well pitched and vital to the way Axel treats matches, that I worry that any replacement move would be woefully inadequate.
Axel's guitar playing is another thoroughly fun part of the moveset, with all kinds of branches and options that are entertaining to use, regardless of whether or not you even hit anything. I would totally begin jamming away, then spin the guitar above my head with Up-Tilt, before jumping up and slamming the guitar on the ground with Down-Air. I kind of wish there were even more moves that used the guitar, just so I'd have more moves to showboat with.

If I had a complaint, it would be that the moveset doesn't quite bring across its full potential. There's a lot of stuff that would be fun to use together (using Grab on your Rifle Demon for example) that you either didn't realise, or neglected to write down. For some moves, I had trouble envisioning what they would be useful for (e.g. the Pummel).
The Playstyle section in particular felt like you were having trouble expressing what the moveset was ultimately about.
This is something you'll find yourself getting better at naturally through practice, so I hope you keep making movesets.

And I see what you did there with that D-Tilt's name. "Tripping with Axel" indeed[/collapse]

[collapse="Getocoolaid"]AXEL the Dark Hero
So, Axel. I love how much you love this character, makes for an entertaining read all the way through!

I like the Rifle Demon as a summon, kind of a mobile turret-type deal that Axel can reposition at will, though has other tricks up its sleeve and is dangerous to attack. Too cool. I also like the Side special, and the implications that, maaybe you can use with your Demon as an explosion. Good way to work off of that summon! The Up Special I don't like because it damages hi waaaaaaaay too much.The Down Special is way too much fun for it's own good.

The rest of the set plays off of the guitar and demon pretty well. My only complaint is that the demon is about all Axel has to play off of with the S-special. I wish maybe you could summon maybe an obsessive fan and abuse them with some of the attacks, fits Axel's abusive ******* personality that's present throughout the set. I quite like Axel, can't wait to see what you do next!

Ant Hill Mob and Marin to come next![/collapse]

[collapse="JOE!"]AXEL = 8.5 / 10
  1. +You made tripping interesting as a damn pratfall mechanic.
  2. +Interesting summon in that it's more like an on-demand Assist Trophy more than just a minion, and Axel can choose to let it do it's thing or go on a rampage, even act as cover while "charging" down B, Usmash or the like.
  3. +The characterization is stellar, as somebody who doesn't even know the series he's from I get a clear picture of who he is. Speaking of, the use of the Guitar is probably one of the cooler/well done uses of "music attacks" I've read recently.
  4. +Side B has a very unique effect in how it's mainly an attack using an enemy vs other enemies. An excellent doubles technique.
  5. +Each move had it's own quirk to it but didn't feel "overly creative". A favorite of mine is the Back Air with the delayed hit.
  6. +Excellent Smash Attacks, and a unique Usmash the likes of which hasn't been seen since Salamence...
  7. +The guitar-playing acting as a stance and changing his moveset's properties was a fun move
  8. +The final smash is funnier the more you think about it. Given his moveset, having tons of Axels on stage with an invincible original allows him to really rock out while the others cause mayhem with his palette of enemy-screwing moves, and the Original's wide area attacks he'd be free to use.
  9. There seems to be a bunch of little details missing here and there, such as when Usmash is charged: how much is he buffed? Or when Uair is used via Down B, how much stronger is it (for example, it went from killing at 300% to 130%)?
  10. -Up B seems to come right the hell out of nowhere, and even given his magical properties just seems... weird. If there is explanation for this then it'd be cool but... yeah.
The newcomers keep rolling in, and this set is rockin' to a new kind of beat! Axel didn't seem to get much of a star-studded reception when first posted, but since I've read it I've been stunned at the conglomeration of ideas presented in a rather grounded manner. When the only complaints I have are "not getting" the Up B and some missing details, then you really got something special.[/collapse]

by Big Mac

[collapse="TheKalmarKing"]The Ant Hill Mob

I love Wacky Races, but I don't really like the Ant Hill Mob. However, I'm not a ****, so I decided to read the set anyway. And Holy Cow does I like it!

The Down B is really an high-risk high-reward move: while having gangsters around is very important and crucial for victory, it's also pretty dangerous, so of course, it must be rewarding. And with it's crazy normals and smashes, they can easily flood the stage with cement, blowtorches, cemented blowtorches, blowtorched cement and cemented crowbars, making the fight a kind of... turret hell? Once the turrets are set, the mob can just go back to the car, or stay on stage, safely protected by cement walls and flames. While the terraforming and the stances are not as needed as the other moves, they still are very nice features. While I was a bit tired by the end of the moveset (blame my lack of sleep), the aerials and grabs looked cool too ("Let's kidnap that big turtle, shmucks!").

It already is one of my favorite movesets, and you can be sure I'm gonna vote for you.[/collapse]

[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Cement Comment

Ant Hill Mob is a pretty cool moveset and I feel a good deal better than the Twosome. The more Hugo-esque elements of the Mob are used fairly well, trying to avoid taking over the moveset while still presenting a wide variety of options, with things like the bomb and blowtorch taken fairly well advantage of. The moveset is quite silly, but it's a Wacky Races set, it should have some silly! So that is quite good.

Moves like the Jab show a good grasp of vehicular movesets and how to work with them, the cement is...okay, but it does feel like it'd mess with a lot of characters, and I still dislike D-Throw's messing with foot attacks: it seems situational, as most characters would just not care much about it, while those that do are likely semi-crippled by it, and if it is for logical reasons...well, to me, it seems more logical for them to just be able to use feet attacks with a giant piece of concrete helping than to not be able to use them at all. I also feel like the Up Smash stilts could have been better taken advantage of with the set aside from just sticking stuff to the underside.

Still, what is around, such as the various good bomb and blowtorch tricks (mob turrets!) and the fairly flowing nature of the mobster's uses pushes it up to a good level. I do wish some of the worse stuff like the cement had been changed and somehow I feel like there could have been more: The stilts could have had more flow, for example. But still, it is quite enjoyable, and worth a read.[/collapse]

[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Ant Hill Mob
Obviously, this set is going to alienate some people from the start on the basis that it's a sort of vehicle Hugo set, and yes smashing 2 of the more unsmash genres together produces a result that is definently not easy to balance. In that regard though, I don't think this set is actually that bad though. Sure it's definitely on the very powerful side, but the AI control on the minions, the amount of time their set up takes and the required positioning to do anything especially ridiculous makes me think that the set would require a lot of skill to play well, and even then a smart opponent can fight back perfectly well against this set.

The actual concepts here are very good too, with the way the player has to conserve gangsters between creating fancy set ups and comboing the foe and defending the vehicle/providing it mobility options. The cement in particular is a highlight, ignoring the somewhat awkward interactions with people's feet, the constructs on the car make the prospect of camping with the gangsters a lot more interesting, and for that matter so is sticking blowtorches to the car or burying bombs. The sheer variety in their set ups and the fact that you can just abuse their status as a vehicle set in dozens of fun ways too makes the set feel very open ended too. It's not perfect, I feel the flow between the parts that use the nature of the vehicle and the set ups on the vehicle isn't all that strong, the way you set up the stage construction makes me believe it'd be frustrating to actually pull off in a match, and with how some inputs feel like they really have to be made unique in an awkward way I wonder if the set is too unsmash for it's own good, since it requires such bizarre functions for some inputs. Still, these aren't too big of problems, and the good aspects are strong enough to make it my favorite set thus far.[/collapse]

[collapse="JOE!"]ANT HILL MOB = 3.5 / 10
  1. -Car mechanics will always be crappy for actual gameplay of Smash. Any small stage or uneven terrain makes the set pretty much crap-tier if it were playable as you could always take it to like, just even Battlefield and the slightest pushes and movement will send it off the edges constantly.
  2. +Car Mechanics aside, the specials this time around are actually pretty fun.
  3. +Implementation of Double-Tapped moves is cool.
  4. Ftilt's whole mechanic seems unnecessary when you could just hit them with a crowbar over and over reliably, with Gangsters having the needle-guns on command with the option to smash people with crowbars when close. And Dair is the very definition of a situational move.
  5. Can you attack the car from all sides? It often appears as if you can only take it on from head-on...
  6. The set is a chore to read with every move being multiple paragraphs of text, I mean dayum.
  7. -A lot of the trapping moves and HP's are wicked high considering what the car can do to abuse them.
  8. -Is there no way to flip back over after Nair? Car mechanics aside this seems unfairly harsh seeing as you then lack a conventional jumping method unless you can then Up B while upside down?
  9. Many moves are outright "specials", with Side Smash pretty much being a set in of itself that would require so much mastery of a character that can barely even play on standard non-fd stages. It feels like every move is a mini-mechanic of it's own gone too far at times and works to make the car barely have any sort of interactivity for enemies to actually fight it.
  10. On top of this, many moves are just flat out OP, such as Dtilt's FOREVER hitbox and Backthrow with cement. If timed right with a foe under your SOLID bottom, you could just be as homo as possible and stall like a ****.[/collapse]

by UserShaddow7989


I read this set a bit ago, but I still hadn't gotten around to commenting it, which makes me feel bad, because I love you UserShadow and you made a set! Anyways, I have to begin the set with the base mechanic of course, which I really like a great deal. Taking defense and putting it on the field for both players to work around in the form of these fragile bubbles is clever, and it gives her a barrier she can work effectively with. It's one of the most original, interesting to build off of concepts I can think of in recent memory. Kudos, I really, really like it.

Unfortunately, that really is where most of the praise ends, as Marin falls into the easy pitfalls such a mechanic opens up. The bubbles are fascinating as written. There's no need to continue to manipulate the bubbles themselves in the set, but you pile on a bunch of different modified bubbles into different moves and tilts and ways to combine bubbles or move them around... when that's really not what they were designed to do in the first place. They worked well as a barrier, turning them into general use ammunition wasn't a good move. It's all sort of awkward as well, with each mechanic not clearly evident towards its input, and not clearly fitting into the playstyle either. Bubbles are meant to be a defense at first, but then the Gust Bubble has you scattering them all so they become ineffectual. More options are only good when they give you more interesting decisions to make, not when they dilute the playstyle or make your choices too easy.

You avoid the common mistake of making moves that are only useful for manipulating mechanics rather than attacking, but you replaced it with an equally upsetting vice. Her actual attacks all feel hopelessly generic, a simple damage percent and vague motion of a wand that is brushed aside quickly to get to the meat of all the interactions you've weighed yourself down with. The jab and down tilt tease me with thoughts about how Marin is actually using her moves to get into combat, but I'm left sort of feeling like they just fill the spot rather than actually build off of how she should behave. It's all very reactionary at best.

Having her moves' special functions activate on whiff contributes to this sort of bloated feeling in the set, as if each move is actually two different moves, one for hitting and one for general 'manipulation', which combined with all her other extra moves you've supplied, bubble grabs, parry attacks, and shield specials makes the set just plain unnecessarily long. The parry moves really, quite simply, are no better than what her regular options in such a scenario would be, and would fit much better as follow-ups from a special than an extra two inputs that are out of place from any other character (self: jot that down for future reference actually). The shield specials though are the most unforgivable, and are where any balance quibbles I had with the set earlier become irrelevant due to the complete game-breaker you've laid down.

It's been a tendency I've occasionally seen in many sets, even great sets like Zant back from MYM6 or your old Houndoom set that I still look back at as an exemplary rushdown / pressure moveset, that you can introduce a concept in a special and then introduce standards later that completely usurp it at what it does. I dislike moves like Marin's dash attack (and dislike backwards / run away dash attacks in general; is Brawl not campy enough already?) where a concept that should be sovereign territory of the specials spills over into another move. THe shield specials here are the most offensive part of the entire set, and throw any notion of balance out the window entirely. The ability to shield while performing a special move alone is mindbogglingly good. Shield pressure is very difficult to pull off if your name isn't Meta Knight or Peach, and a quick breather is all you need to recover a damaged shield to full usefulness again. Marin is already specialized at defense without using a shield, so making her specials while shielding stronger on top of that is just absurd. The worst offender without a doubt though would have to be the Shield Down Special. How is being able to set up a 30% complete barrier to damage, that you can recharge, while your shield is up, possibly, even remotely balanced? Even a mediocre player has no excuse to ever, ever take damage again with this move at their disposal.

I realize this comment has started to turn into a review with an eye towards the negative, but a fair amount of my harshness comes from disappointment because of how much I liked to core idea itself. I really want to like Marin, but the set ends up choking on overcomplicating itself rather than simply playing to the strengths of the concepts from the beginning. For me, I read the set, and see each move trying to compete for attention and show off how cool its idea is and how it feeds into the mechanics, and the end result is that the playstyle is muddled by all these ideas that are more designed to look good when first read rather than work in unison towards the core idea you begin the set with. The core ideas in the playstyle are good, but I feel like more focus on her immediate goals in a match would have brought the set more to life. Put the opponent in the air? Where do you want them? What moves should they be afraid of the most? Where can you put your most dangerous hitboxes, and how do you change battle plans when you're aiming for a kill? It's important to answer these questions as well.

As one final statement, I really wish you made more character out of her than she currently has. Marin is very much a vehicle for an idea, not a personality. You mention occasionally her franticness, but its not thorough. An OC like this deserves a quote, dialogue, something to make me like the character too. Besides, personality can be just as big an element of making playstyle as ability is.[/collapse]

I have to disagree with DM on this set, in that I don't feel the execution past the base is necessarily a bad thing. Admittedly, the Shield Specials feel a bit overpowered in some regards and the Down Special in particular needs to be toned down, but to some degree I can excuse that on the basis that the set HAD to have such a mechanic for the sake of the mini it was made for. At any rate, the idea is perfectly interesting, giving Marin a sort of constant defensive measure she can use for both offense and defensive purposes. Given the fact that she can't exactly use the magnetic bubbles to a degree of ridiculous efficiency without proper set up too, this set doesn't play at all like a standard camper, she actually does have to go close range with the foe and utilize her defensive bubbles against them to protect herself while she gradually picks away at the foe's life through various bubble related tricks. Interesting to see a defensive character who for once isn't just hiding away in their own little corner of the stage in a fortress of traps.

The actual alternate bubbles are interesting, perhaps a little too challenging to properly utilize but they don't really destroy her set up particularly much and frankly with the bubble defense she has she'll have time to think out how she uses them a little bit more than usual anyway. It's a very neat playground, with among my favorite bits being introduced in the grab game with the ability to attach a bubble to your staff or utilize all the various alternate conditions for bubbles in the pummel. That's all very clever, and pretty much everything feels fun to tinker around with. I can't help but feel the set might be a bit too defuse in it's focus though, while everything clearly interacts with the bubbles the set does so in a large number of different ways that don't all flow together in a very clear cut way. I love how open ended the set is though, she's never denying a player of interesting options and in that way would be very fun to play as, particularly if the player prefers a slower game. If her individual options all flowed together a bit more smoothly and the Shield Specials were less powerful I could see this set being fantastic, but even as is I'm not going to deny that I enjoy a good playground set, and this has all the marks of one with a variety of interesting options and a cool basis to start from.[/collapse]

[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Bubble, Bubble, Toil and Trouble

While DM's comment went for a much more negative tone, mine will most certainly go for a more positive spin, on the basis that I am quite fond of this set. Don't take this to think this comment will be without criticism.

I'll start with the good part. I do quite love the usage of bubbles here, as not only does it make great use of the Clash and Parry mechanic, but it brings a fresh new take on bubbles as used in a moveset, when compared to a set such as...let's just say...Bubbleman.EXE. Using the slightest of lag makes it managably balanced while still giving it purpose, as well, and the Bubble Dress is a cool way to use it defensively, while the Side Special uses it more offensively. All very nice stuff. The tilts and smashes then proceed to add layers onto layers on the uses of the bubbles and although the fact the moves always affect your bubbles is a downside, Marin uses this weakness into a playstyle-related strength, turning into a weakness she must get around with the creation of more bubbles or by using some of the moves that minimally change her bubbles, such as back aerial, jab, dash attack and her grab. I especially enjoy how the Forward Throw interferes with momentum cancelling, something we really should see more often.

While not the most tightly wound set, it also has fairly good flow, as the bubbles can work towards offensive overwhelming via numbers or defensive holing up pretty easy, and her tilts do well to work with the passive bubbles following her, although I do agree with DM that overall the melee moves could work into the game better, but I feel like what is here is adequate. One thing I do dislike is the Shield Specials: While NSpec and SSpec are fine, DSpec is really bad and USpec is also a move I don't enjoy much. DSpec mostly because it entirely renders the normal DSpec useless: why not use the Shield DSpec, even if it does cost shield? Most certainly an area that could be improved. On the plus side, you have a PK Rockin' Final Smash.

I also feel like the set is pretty well characterized and I very much enjoy the use of animations: Jarad's vivid animations greatly helped me enjoy that set, Mami also had some great animations (especially through images) and I feel Marin's descriptions too hlep this set. They give a good feel of the character while fighting, but without being in the way or overwrought, so it feels like it is organically molded into the set. Having so many moves and the descriptions being long does make it a big of a slog, though...but with the way the set is constructed, I don't feel it is TOO big of a deal or really all that fixable.

So yes, I quite like this set, for innovative use of a good concept that flows well and is an excellent read in both moveset and character, even if it has some points that drag it down. Take that as you will.[/collapse]

[collapse="JOE!"]BUBBLE WITCH MARIN = 10 / 10
  1. +Perfect descriptions bring the character to life. (even if the codec was a bit lengthy)
  2. +Unique and well thought out Defensive Mechanic.
  3. +The tilts each having their own magic attached is a great addition, especially with how they only activate when "missed".
  4. +Each special adds a well defined use that weaves in and out of her other moves, especially fond of Bubble Dress.
  5. +The character is incredibly busy, taking no breaks as you play her due to the fragile nature of her defenses and how she has to actually KO. A fun touch.
  6. +The multitude of ways for her to continue to produce bubbles (reminds me of Forretress lol) is a nice touch and keeps her flow going beyond having to spam N spec all the time.
  7. +The elemental effects of her smashes provide a whole new layer of playstyle.
  8. +The mini's special mechanics are used very well, I especially like how the bubbles crafted via Shield Specials have a moment of shielding to them.
  9. +The throws and aerials are each brilliant as well, being able to effectively wall off areas in the air or even turn the foe into a "bubble".
  10. +Blast Orb is a large improvement over previous Up Tilts, and allows her to play more aggressively at the expense of her bubbles, a nice touch.
My favorite set so far, Marin was a joy to read with really only one questionable aspect with her ability to render things invisible going against her normal gameplay. Hopefully this isn't the only US production this contest.[/collapse]


by thekewlusername

[collapse="darth_meanie"]I've considered a moveset for Star Force Mega Man myself. You've got a solid framework here, but honestly, it doesn't feel very 'Star Force' ish. You don't capitalize on some of the elements that are so unique to his design, like Omega-Xis, moves like Beast Slash, Mega Attack homing moves, his directional shield, etc. The special moves should really showcase what you want to make the most central part of the set, and the battlecards you chose don't feel particularly important to who Mega Man is.

You talk about not knowing where to go with a Final Smash, and yeah, there are so many options since that game has such ridiculous post-game and power-up content available. I'd suggest for this set working backwards instead. Choose a Final Smash or fighting style available to use in the game, like Zerker from Star Force 2 or Red Joker as a Final Smash, and then build the special moves around that aspect of what you can do as Mega Man. You could build a set based around a strategy or playstyle in game, and everything would flow together from there. Focus on playing to the strengths of the character you chose.

Also, I recommend putting up an image for the header and a bit more detail to the moves. Princess Peach's down aerial is four kicks that link together, but it's an amazing tool for pressuring enemies, wracking up damage, and comboing out of her float that can be used in so many different ways. Describing it as just a brief, generic animation and a damage percent wouldn't cut it.[/collapse]

[collapse="TheKalmarKing"]Megaman StarForce

That's rather... under-detailed to say the least. Like Darth Meanie said, a picture would be very nice, and the fact that Starforce is the less known Megaman doesn't help (One of the less known, at least). Also there is no bio, so we're just left pondering whether what his story is. We just know he's not Classic, X or EXE.

Now on to the moves. Basically, the normals are non-existent. It is one thing than to neglect the normals, because you're tired, you don't see much use for them or whatever, but it's another thing than to put only totally generic moves. It doesn't feel like Megaman, it feels like Sheik with a sword. Seriously, I'm not joking. The Specials are rather bland themselves; nothing very interesting, nothing you can remember.

Now, I perfectly understand that as a beginner, your moveset is basic. Don't worry, you will improve with time and training. One of the basics is creating the playstyle, how Megaman is played, that kind of stuff, that solve a lot of problem and the moveset itself will be much easier to create. Reading JOE!'s guide will help, it is well-written and always useful. As a fellow newcomer, I hope you will become a better movesetter, and I'm waiting for your next submission.

EDIT: Wow, you improved fast. First of all, the moveset is far nicer with the pics, the stats and playstyle. Looks far better. Now for the normals, while still a bit generic and flat, they are actually explained: why are they here and why we would use them, that kind of stuff. That's something that Jinbe admittedly lacked, so I can only respect you. The specials are much more developped too, making them almost unique (Because as you said, it's nothing really new). Sooooo... Good job, I guess.[/collapse]

[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Rising Star

I don't really have much to say on Starforce Megaman, as anything I would say feels like it'd echo DM's comment and to some extent KalmarKing's as well. I did want to discuss the weapon changing mechanic, though: Personally, I dislike the use of taunts for this, as it feels a tad unwieldly and makes the taunt lose their original use of being taunts. The attacks have also been changed to be somewhat better, although I do not feel they really work together towards much of a gameplan. I also wanted to say that it would have been cool if the Side Special worked like Marth's Dancing Blade, with a variety of kick options based on how you input it after the first. MYM could use more Dancing Blade-like moves. They're cool.[/collapse]

[collapse="JOE!"]STARFORCE MEGA MAN = 5 / 10
  1. +Nice change of pace by going through a breakdown before the set, as well as your reasoning and personal feelings for the character being put forward.
  2. +Dair cancelling into Up and Down B is cool.
  3. +Bair's "held" attack option is a neat concept for an aerial.
  4. +His grab's ability to be either a fast "normal" or a held out "tether" is fun, but are you implying that the Zair can grab people?
  5. Stale moves. Also a slight lack of Omega-Xis beyond some token moves here and there, would've though he'd be a special or such.
  6. Smash attacks always take 2 seconds to charge, and deal 1.4x the damage not double.
  7. -Moves lack many vital descriptions such as KO %'s, angles of Knockback, power of knockback (low, hi, medium), or have too little when stated for the lag associated.
  8. -Dthrow seems very OP providing he can tech-chase from it and deal 24% + from a mere regrab, or a short hopped Down B to guarantee around 40% damage from 2 moves.
  9. -Nspec having to charge for 2ish Ganon Punches is ridiculous, especially when the swapped shot-types are generally better than it in terms of speed, damage and accuracy.
  10. -Side B could have easily, easily been a standard move/jab. What about it could make it a special move? This could've been an Omega-Xis move or such.
Starforce Mega Man has some good points, and is overall fun to imagine being playable but ultimately doesn't bring much to the table that hasn't been done before in smash bros. Another problem is just some lack of info and/or questionable inputs, but don't let that deter you. Read up on some of the other sets and you'll definitely improve on the next one.[/collapse]


by Katapultar

[collapse="n88_2004"]I've already given you my thoughts on Minami, Kat, and they haven't much changed. To paraphrase, I really like what you've done with the item-combo game; Minami has a lot of depth and finds some creative uses for items not much different from Brawl's ow. The way Minami brings a dodgeball element to the fight is equally commendable. And of course there's the fact that this set never feels like it gives into tackiness or reaches too far for potential, despite the very simple nature of the character. The Extras (which I hadn't seen before) are a nice touch; something we could probably stand to see more of these days. Big thumbs up on this one.[/collapse]


by BridgesWithTurtles

[collapse="Katapultar"]This might be the first set ever made that's designed to be used against the same character, which is obviously fitting with the multiplayer aspect. It sort of reminds me of a cruel version of Olimar what with the deliberate sacrifices and survival of the fittest. The writing style and presentation are both very good, with no shortage of pictures and game referencing that helps those who haven't played like myself. It's obviously trying to stay as true to the game as possible while being smash-viable, which I can respect if the notion of the pads eating up half the inputs was deliberate as to give the mice little options.

I actually really like the running part of the set because of how effective it is, a realization I came to upon you pointing out that trailing mice can absorb projectile hits for you. That, and you have traps you can set-up after acquiring space of which you can assemble in a bevy of ways or put up a mouse hole. It very much rewards you having the max 20 mice out, but on this note I do wish there were more ways to take advantage of such a huge number of mice - most of the time I was expecting the moves that do take advantage of mice to produce a result with all 20 out, but none of them do. It might have been intentional on your part for balancing reasons, but it'd be nice to include. For another nitpick, the rocket might move a little too slowly for the dire consequence of hitting a foe.

Apart from that you're very much aware of all the on-goings in this well thought-out set, which feels feels almost like a game mode as much as it is a set! For some further praise, I like the Taunts for showing that the mice can speak bold and arrogant words whereas without them I would have thought they'd be mindless mice without them. It's a great set, and I hope you make another sometime in the near future.[/collapse]

[collapse="n88_2004"]ChuChus is (are?) a very impressive first effort. You've clearly taken your time with this and it shows; the set demonstrates a good understanding of what goes into a playstyle and how moves interact with each other, as well as a slavish devotion to recreating the mechanics of another game inside Smash that I can only applaud. Like Kat says, a game with multiple players as ChuChus feels like a mode unto itself. ChuChus represent a more hectic, strategic take on the minion/helper ideas present in Olimar that really does sound like a blast to play.

My lone piece of advice is that as is it stands, the control scheme somewhat limits ChuChus' options, with tile-laying taking up so many of ChuChus' attacks. Having that many attacks be so similar feels like it would really limit ChuChus' options. Perhaps you could change the Neutral Special to a tile-laying move (with the direction of the tile determined by an analog input), and give that attack's rocket-relocation functionality to Up Special (which already moves the rocket anyway). Withdrawing ChuChus could simply be a function of the Standard Attack button, like picking up items. Arranging the set like that would free up Standards and Aerials for more varied moves, which could help build up ChuChus' game and give him more attacking (or running away) options.

Of course, that's just my take. I'm unfamiliar with the source material and it's very possible that you've got some good reasons for implementing things the way you did. Here's hoping we'll see more from you soon![/collapse]


by JOE!

[collapse="Katapultar"]Right from the get go Ho-oh's presentation screams a certain brilliance befitting for it, from the use of its Heartgold box artwork to the Heartgold symbol for the headers - I for one felt quite excited when I first scrolled down to the set. Looking back, some of Ho-oh's defensive powers from the game (what with that uber high SpDf stat) are captured quite well here, from the use of a Light Screen shield to Sunny Day healing off damage in a manner reminiscent to the infamous Recover which Ho-oh gets in a wild battle against it - we all know 6% a second isn't even broken with all those Project Melee Ivysaur videos you've shown us in the chat, though it still feels like a very high number fitting for Ho-oh.

Since I'm an advocate of characterization, if I'm to level any complaint on the set, it'd be that it perhaps doesn't feel -legendary- enough. I know you said in the chat that you felt you downsized Ho-oh a bit too much whereas his Brawl size would be a bit too big, though I don't think there'd be any problem with making him roughly 1.5X as large as he currently is. Being huge targets is, in a way, a good form of characterization for legendaries to give them a sense of overwhelming presence in Brawl while at the same time making them feel coveted. It'd also give you an excuse to increase the range on Ho-oh's attacks (and make them just a wee bit stronger), because right now most of the stuff feels as though it could be put onto any old Pokemon like Swellow or something. You obviously wouldn't need to worry about Sunny Day being less effective either when you can just fly away, where it'd actually be much more useful when you'd be taking so much damage with such a large size. It might be shocking, but I'd say the set would actually be a lot better for me simply by having Ho-oh be up-sized.

For a minor complaint, the Sacred Flames effect is cool but somewhat iffy in how it's handled. It's only useful in Team Matches, but don't most people play those without Friendly Fire? Why not just have allies receive the effect when they stay near Ho-oh for more than one second with SD active? That way you don't have to rely on luck and you're not just randomly buffing your opponent say if they're being afflicted by their own negative mechanic or getting in the way of an ally's gameplan via team matches. You also don't have to randomly hurt your ally in order to activate it, which seems pretty silly.[/collapse]

[collapse="BridgesWithTurtles"]I probably don't have any position to give detailed feedback considering I've only made one set here myself, but after finally finding the time to read Ho-oh, I really wanted to say how pleased I was at its execution. I expected a good set, but I also expected it to fall into the same sort of mold that other "giant" sets fall into. I was actually pleasantly surprised at how much Ho-oh was scaled down, and moreso at how it was scaled down while still seeming rather much like Ho-oh. I really love the concentration on projectile defense at the expense of having problems with close combat; that's something a Pokemon fan would pick up on instantly, and it was a nice pleasure to see that sort of adaptation from another game's mechanics into Smash gameplay.

The Sacred Flames concept had me questioning the idea at first, but overall, it's a pretty good take on the effects of Sacred Ash. I like how it's largely founded with doubles in mind, which is something I love seeing in movesets. Another aspect I like is the focus on air and the push and pull properties featured in moves that make use of the concept, such as Tailwind and its movement properties. The grab as well I find to be pretty cool. It could have functioned as an aesthetically interesting but otherwise conventional action, but instead you instilled it with a unique function that offers up different applications without straying too far from what's established and comfortable. Overall, the set is pretty darn good. Ho-oh seems balanced despite being an OU legendary, and still fun to play even with its abilities obviously having been toned down. If I have one dislike, it's that the Sacred Flames seem a little useless in a singles match, other than its relationship with Down Throw.[/collapse]


by BridgesWithTurtles


One thing that strikes me in Zoboomafoo is the sheer number of props used. Ropes, vines, assists, closets... Problem is, you couldn't make a Zoboomafoo moveset without those props. It's not a critic- I think that for such an expository character, you translated him correctly, I'd say.

Also I find some aspects of the set to be ironically annoying. The props are okay, but such a reliance on berries and vines is kinda boring; while there is different ways of using them, it's not big differences, so it's rather repetitive. Also his constent screeching is outright bad. An always-talking character is annoying for everybody (Except if he can shoot webs or is named Deadpool). One thing that is really really weird though is how his wall-climbing could be used for recovery out of all things. I mean what, is he grabbing the oxygen? There isn't many walls floating near the blast zone in Brawl. Also it could have been greatly expanded upon; while the set would fall flat on his face on a wall-less stage, it could make it more interesting I think.

Not a bad try overall, but it's very forgettable. But don't give up! I'm sure you can improve. 4/10 (Also you should come back to the chat! Perhaps you won't see me but it's always a nice place!)[/collapse]


by thekewlusername

[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Kentucky Fried Pokemon

Blaziken's concept isn't bad and is actually kind of similiar to Bad Girl: Quick attack combos and up close and personal rushdownness. I like that kinda playstyle. Blaziken doesn't have much for it, though, in my opinion: His attack are very basic but, rather in a way that builds to an overall goal, in a way that is scattershot, and the quick attacks feel there just to be quick rather than to specificlly work into things, with the exception of the jab. I would have liked to have seen more from this, an expansion of the concept if you will...say, imagine if Blaziken could raise his speed by using a Flame Charge Special, but that Flame Charge is hard to hit unless you keep up the pressure with your quick attacks. Blaziken would then have a little more focus to his game, while at the same time adding in depth to his playstyle with this new move that mixes into it and helps deepen the experience. As it is right now, though, it doesn't feel particularly good, but my dislike of it is muted. Still, I do wish that we had seen more from this...but I look forward to what you come up with next. c:[/collapse]


by TheKalmarKing

[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Haven't Ya Ever Seen a Pink Girl Before?!

Bad Girl's problem, in my opinion, stems from a lack of clear playstyle coherence. Bad Girl clearly has something she is going for, berserker rushdown, and she actually has a pretty good starting basis for it with the beer and the Side Special and the clones, but I feel like the set really leaves something to be desired after the specials. The moves are there, sure, and they aren't that bad (usually), but they don't seem to especially fit into her berserker playstyle much or form a wider picture of a playstyle. Having moves outside the context of playstyle is fine, but here it seems like there is so much of that that there ends up being little focus and ergo less playstyle than I would like. I would have maybe liked some moves that worked with the fire more directly, such as increased damage, to make blitzing an enflamed foe more attractive, or just in general attacks that fit more of a "rushdown" approach: Bad GIrl's current moves feel more suited to a Marth many times.

Still, it is a step up from Jinbe: The attacks seem better thought out even if they didn't come out the way I'd like, the basis is stronger and more thought out and as a whole it feels more polished than Jinbe. I still can't say I liked it but...hey, improvement![/collapse]

[collapse="Getocoolaid"]Superior Geto Remake
You capture the essence of Bad Girl very well in this moveset. I'm sure by now you're at least mildly aware that I'm quite the fanatic of the No More Heroes franchise, and I love it when movesets are made for characters in the series. Berserk is a good way to portray her, though personally, had i remade this character myself, I would have focused a lot on suicide KOs, but that's my own personal take on the character.

The Gimps (I just can't see the fight without the Gimps, man) are handled well, I like that you treat them as nothing more than meat shields and weapons. I also really like the side special: I've always thought of Bad Girl as a tank (though a very fragile tank) and this move gets that across really well. The use of fire is cool, too.

Outside of good characterization and good ideas, the rest of the set...well, it doesn't fall apart, but it fails to follow up on those ideas. What's presented sounds fun as hell to play, really, but I do feel more could have been done with the character. More focus on playing with the foe's head perhaps? An even more reckless playstyle, maybe? I'm doing a lot of speculating here really, but what you have is a good step up and certainly a set that I can appreciate.[/collapse]

[collapse="Smash Daddy"]I’m actually commenting these sets backwards, so if you look down at my Gyarados comment, you’ll see that the positive qualities of that set I like are largely the same as in Bad Girl. That being, it plays accurately for what you’d expect for the character. That’s where the similarities end, of course, as Bad Girl is mindless as opposed to being powerful. This is a sensible playstyle for a brawler character, whom beats up weaker characters. From a characterisation standpoint it makes perfect sense too, as Bad Girl uses up her followers as if they mean nothing to her and causes havoc all over the battlefield, though perhaps not to the extent that I’d like. It feels too reserved in places when it could relies upon basic types of moves that add only a very small amount of substance to the playstyle, instead of taking advantage of the minions in interesting, torturous ways. The set is a solid like for me but would greatly have benefitted from a bunch of ways to complexly toss around the minions, instead of it mostly being an incidental thing working out in the set’s favour in the end. Definitely a big improvement for you,Kalmar, and I hope you take the feedback to heart, come back to us improving yet again.[/collapse]


by Smash Daddy


My, my. In the same day, I released Bad Girl who is a total tank and Smady released his Koffing who can't take a hit but is far more subtle. I could totally make a matchup for those two... Now enough talk and HAVE AT Y -I mean let's look at the set.

It is a pretty solid field-control moveset, every move being use either to create more gas, to move the gas or taking advantage of the opponent's mistakes... due to the gas. Your second playstyle paragraph about how he forces the foe to approach reminded me of Croagunk of course who was said to rely on the same mechanics. Well I think it's better here (Sorry Froy), because the opponent actually wants to smack Koffing around to make him stop spreading the gas; then Koffing takes advantage of the opponent's mistakes with some sadistic traps and his only powerful close-ranged attacks. That makes me wonder, would Koffing be useful in high-level matches where errors are pretty rare sometimes? Koffing's player could get around that by playing creatively and not using the same strategy over and over, but his playstyle sure is risky. He could lose the match simply because of a misreading of the opponent's approach.

Also a good distance character (Like good ol' Chakravartin who is such a good example I always talk about him) could be dangerous for Koffing, who could be stopped by a good camper from setting his gas up (But perhaps I'm wrong). Also as a side-note, is it possible for the gas to be lighted up by a fire attack, or is Koffing the only one allowed to make stuff blow up?

While Koffing looks pretty fun to play, rather solid and powerful, he's still rather classical in the end and got some weaknesses that are keeping him from being a really good set. Still, it is a pretty good set I think. 6/10[/collapse]

[collapse="BridgesWithTurtles"]Finally made some time to read through Koffing, and here's what I have to say:

What makes Koffing so interesting is that the set doesn't necessarily focus on the fact that he levitates, or lacks appendages. Instead, the set makes use of the creative gas gimmick, which is something that strikes me as pretty interesting. Smash has a lack of gaseous hitboxes, and Koffing's attacks are further made unique due to how realistically his gases react to physics. I like how there's a balance between the advantages and disadvantages of each choice made in positioning your gases, which obviously and intentionally was done to make Koffing a high-risk, high reward character, which I tend to find instantly engaging. While his playstyle seems rather straightforward, with a clear "plan" for the player to enact, Koffing also comes off as a complex character (at least in my eyes) because of how specific each move's application is, and how Koffing can be so easily handicapped if the player does not play incredibly smartly. I would certainly have trouble using the character effectively. Rollout and Dash Attack both have interesting movement properties that make Koffing seem like a perfect hit-and-run character, but, as you pointed out, other options allow him to play run-and-hit, or more commonly, as a great baiting character. Overall, I like the set. It's not astounding, but I like it well enough. My only real dislike amounts to the impression that despite how easily Koffing can be handicapped, it seems like a master Koffing player would simply dominate any other character because of how much space the gas can occupy. That, and I too am left curiously wondering: can other fire attacks set off the gas, or is that something only Koffing can do? And can other Koffing players set off another Koffing's gas? I'm assuming "yes" for the latter question.[/collapse]

What with his absolute control over his emitted toxins, Koffing comes off as a refined modern iteration of the gas-centric MYM7 sets. Whereas he has the option to play defensively to a degree by deterring enemy approaches with the likes of Down Special and D-Air’s poison removal, his ‘running and hitting’ flows far more smoothly within his playstyle. The notion that Koffing can lock down areas of stage with sludge or his pummel, before aggressively and strategically buffeting his opponent around is quite appealing. This becomes especially noticeable when you consider that his feathery weight would be excuse enough for any other character to avoid such melee attacking. At times, the pushing together and pulling apart gas to influence its damage output seems a bit arbitrary, since all gas is potent enough as a threat, so long as enough of it is onstage. Because of this, the moves that serve this function border on filler to some extent, though I am a big fan of how gas can be spread around to boost its efficiency during self-destructions. Koffing is undoubtedly a commendable Pokeset, one that ought to be regarded as more than a lightweight this contest.[/collapse]


We're just on a roll for pre-evos of older Pokesets, huh? Croagunk for Toxicroak, Koffing for Weezing...I wonder what else we might see like this before contest's end. Perhaps Grimer from you as well?

I find the Pummel odd in the sense of the foe giving it off as they move about. If it were, say, some kind of poisonous slime or something that would make sense, but it feels odd if Koffing is using his gas: Koffing is producind gas via his chemical whatchamjiggers and letting it out via his vents, while foes don't really have such a thing, so it feels odd to have them exuding gas.

Falcon's blaster? He wishes he had a projectile...

This is actually a pretty solid set, though. The play with the gas is fairly nice in basicness, although sometimes I think you might rely on Self-Destruct a bit too often, if that makes sense. In addition, Koffing's recovery seems a bit worse than you make it out to be, since Koffing's recovery seems quite predictable and without a hitbix aside from his trailing gas. The utilization of prone as a complimentary aspect of the set is quite well handled, I feel, as it does not devolve into making it a win-win scenario while still allowing Koffing a certain amount of ability to play around with it. So that's quite nice. One issue I had a few times is that the times seem a bit long on the moves at times, such as the smokescreen, though that is partially due to the nature of it's damage. And at times, the writing does seem confounding at times, but I am one of the worse people at understanding stuff it seems.

All the same, the playstyle is solid and strong, the characterization is good and it doesn't feel like it is filler, plus it seems quite fun to play, so I'd say I like it a fair deal. Better than...Ultron, I'd say. Final Smash?[/collapse]

[collapse="Getocoolaid"]Halloweezing 2: Weezerection
The thing I love about Koffing most is that shi.t eating grin it always has on it's face. It knows exactly what it's doing...

Koffing takes the idea of that passive gas and runs with it until it can't run anymore, then it gets selfdestructed another couple hundred feet. It's so tightly wound and bursting with ideas that there's very little room for negativity. Passive offense is always tricky to pull off, but you've done it beautifully here. The all the little interactions and the ways of spreading the gas around the stage make for a lot of fun stuff. I'm definitely a fan.[/collapse]


by DiamondFox


I can't really say I like the set. While I certainly appreciate the various interactions with the twisters, waves and so on, the biggest problem is Gyarados' movement. I mean, WHY? It's just a game of Snake with attacks! It's just too awkward to work properly in Smash. In a real game, a majority of players would be just "WTF is up with Gary's body". Also I didn't understand crap to the dodge inputs and the like; so, yeah, I find his movement to be far too bizarre for Smash. Problem is, a lot of his attacks revolve around Gary's body being in various shapes thanks to his movements. I honestly believe very few players would be ready to master such complicated moves.

Honestly there is creativity and good interactions but that's not enough, that can't compensate the weird and strange movements. I'd say 4/10 personally.

*Takes cover*

EDIT: I gave you a 4 instead because I admit there is a hefty ammount of creativity behind this. Still I don't really like it XD[/collapse]

I’ve read solid Gyarados bosses previously, and am happy to see him finally receive the moveset he deserves. His unique body mechanic creates more of a centerpiece than any individual move, instead allowing the shaping of his body to flow into any number of strategies. In particular, Gyarados’ handling of foes behind him through arching his body to speed up waterfalls contains an impressive amount of depth, since he can send these into tornados or strategically freeze them to influence opponents accordingly. I also sense traces of Banbollow with how Gyarados toys with opponents on his back; rather than juggling them there repeatedly, he instead prefers dealing a few crushing hits, before all but forcing his victims back on with stage summons. I do feel as though his air game warrants more attention, since it isn’t touched on much aside from Dragon Dance and the potential for richer expansion exists, with possible stuff like sloping waterfalls down at opponents or Gyarados’ back serving as a massive platform that can hold victims in tow with its slopes. Nevertheless, I’m certainly satisfied with what’s presented already, and Gyarados easily takes the cake as the best (and only, sadly) DiamondFox set so far.[/collapse]


I will admit, I'm not the biggest fan of Gyarados movement in this set. It feels like an awkward start and not the most fitting for Gyaradoes: I agree with Kalmar that it feels like a game of Snake, though I suppose it does capture the feeling of a majestic flying Gyarados. It still feels...weird, though.

Gyarados does make up for it's awkwardness by taking good advantage of it, though. It feels much more smooth than in, say, Big Mac's Gruesome Twosome set, where the dragon felt more awkward. I quite like the use of waterfall on it, which feels unique but not disastrously odd or overpowered, and Hydro Pump is also a bit interesting, along with how Hyper Beam harkens back to RBY in how it is used. One thing that is dissapointing is something I disliked about Silver's Shana set as well: Gyarados' Dragon Dance buff is not only strong, but thanks to his movement is very easy to achieve, turning Gyarados into perhaps too MUCH of an engine of rage empowered destruction. 60% is hella insane. And does permanant mean it lasts between stocks or just on one stock? It is a definite area of improvement. I also feel like the Special Smashes were a bit of a wasted chance: I do quite like Hyper Beam, but the rest are kind of eh. Plus, for a set that spends a lot of time in the air, he lacks aerials: Couldn't you have put them on a double tap or something? It feels awkward. Finally, I don't like Wrap much.

I actually like a fair bit of the grab game: I am a fan of Dragon Tail and Rebound also seems decent, the grab itself is fine (And has fun uses given his positining abilities) and the pummel adds some character. I am not a big fan of the other two throws, though: Consume is the one I dislike most, as it feels quite out of place to me, while Slam feels a bit oddly complex compared to his grabs and while not luck based it seems difficult in a way that does not feel skillful.

But the it is fairly good. The basic standards help create a rich playstyle, the specials provide a nice centerpiece combined with the mechanic and it has a few fun extra toys to add in to it. I don't think it is as good as Koffing, but it is still above average.[/collapse]

Obviously due to the nature of the set’s movement and projectiles, it’s pretty bloody unique from the start and at least from where I’m standing, not in a bad way. The moves succeed in making the character feel powerful and yet at the same time beatable due to the absolutely massive amount of baggage he carries around and his ability to still take full stun if his head is hit. It’s not like his head’s small either. The miniature playground around the tornados and the like flows very well and allows for both an aggressive and deep playstyle considering how well he can keep fighting as he sets up. Where Gyarados suffers is, I feel, is from an aesthetic standpoint. Sure, making slopes out of his back for waterfalls and tornados to travel along is interesting, but it’s absolutely bizarre to envision him spitting a waterfall into his back and then flipping it around in the arch of his back. Aside from that, I’m not sure if I am really okay with the Down Smash, which sure flows into the rest of his game and isn’t easy to pull off, but having an attack cover nearly the entire stage and just be undodgeable and probably ruinous on shields that covers nearly the entire stage is just something the foe can’t possibly respond too when it actually works. For this reason GyaraDOESN’T end up as one of my favorites this contest, but GyaraDOES end up an overall solid set.[/collapse]

[collapse="Smash Daddy"]Gyarados received an unfairly cold reception. To me the set represents a very amicable representation of a primal beast that has a nightmarish control over powerful magic, in the form of Pokémon moves. That’s entirely accurate here, on a giant character that doesn’t really have all that many ways to interpret the devastating move pool it hails. The simple and easy interactions remind me of Empoleon but watered down enough to make sense to any player. Gyarados feels imposing without feeling overpowered and surprisingly is quite in-character as well, a credit that I don’t see at all in other comments. Movement is slightly awkward compared to other characters but giving a way for infinite versatility in facing when using moves, also posits an interesting extra factor in making this Pokémon a terrifying opponent in the hands of a skilled player. All I can say here is that, while it does make sense, the set lacks depth. Albeit, that quality makes the set instantly playable, direct in its offence. It’s exactly what you want out of a Pokémon moveset that doesn’t try for some insanely ambitious end goal and I must say it seems quite underrated.[/collapse]


by tirkaro

[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Genderbent Merlin

I wouldn't say Merlina's concept is bad, combining pressure with laggy moves to create a sort of mishmash offensive and yet, with elements like the Black Knight, defensive-ish playstyle. Unfortunately, I feel the moveset suffers from some massive issues. The Down Aerial, for example: 4 seconds is a pretty absurd amount of time to freeze someone! Yeah, she needs setup and whatnot, but moves like that simply are not the way to do it. They aren't really interesting and such easy stun without a check or balance begs to be abused in unintended ways that undermine the playstyle. Plus, there are a lot of more interesting ways to work set-up and other such things into a playstyle, I feel.

I also felt some of the moves were quite odd: Dash Attack, for example. It feels weird, to me, that Merlina is just plain summoning part of the Black Knight for what amounts to a simple dash attack, this big flashy animation for something very simple. I also greatly dislike the Down Tilt: Counters on tilts are already odd, but this is a very strong counter with absurd KO potential, which is more than a little broken and is not very fun for the playstyle. I also feel like the Queen's appearance on Smashes feels Sweet Weird and Hella Awkward. Also, grab games without full throws. : (

This moveset did have some good points, however. I liked the Black Knight in the Specials, that seemed cool, and the Jab was pretty neat as well. NSpec is also pretty neat. And the writing here is pretty amusing, so it isn't a total drag to read and has minor highlights. But...yeah, overall, I don't like it much at all.[/collapse]

[collapse="Katapultar"]Froy's comment inspired me to comment this set, because I wanted to voice my opinion on the set that made me watch through the cut-scenes of its source material. I actually think the set has some very good atmosphere in the way the Black Knight is used from the game, and even some interesting creative liberties like the frog-hexing and sword-in-the-stone that weren't actually in the game but reference the King Arthur legend in a way. Even the outlandish animations like the Dash Attack and D-air's sit well with me. It reminds me of why I still hold a lot of respect for Adachi even now.

I'd say you could easily swap the D-tilt and Down Special inputs since the latter doesn't seem to do anything in the air anyway, while at the same time making the counter look less awkward. You could have the frog transformation be a way to stall time or hit enemies easily (whereby they return back to normal), just give them two decent jumps and the ability to grab the ledge so it's not game-breaking (though I do find the idea of having to herd enemies to the ledge just to kick them off interesting, it's not the base concept and you could easily say, intercept a recovery with a hitbox for the win). The frog could easily have good depth if the victim is restricted to a weak shield, dodge and generally not being able to attack, all while getting past your static hitboxes like Black Knight, current Down Special, Neutral Special and all that jazz. It could even flow well with Merlina wanting space because she doesn't have a teleport or any way to move across the stage quickly despite being a slow wizard - just froggify enemies and you can walk away from them or whatever, or if you set a trap or two to disrupt them beforehand. D-air not stoning enemies off-stage is obviously quite forced too, whereas the easiest way to ensure enemies do not just fall to their deaths would be to just make it a throw, if you had a set. Some of the aerials being skimmed in the first place like F-air and U-air would imply it'd be pretty easy, and an interesting way to finish the set.

Overall, Merlina definitely has a lot of potential, though it can be hard to see when your intentions aren't always clear, what with having moves that embody a novel concept and some that are filler-ish (or at least aren't explained as how they could be interesting), a bit unbalanced and not having a playstyle section (which isn't a big deal, but makes it hard to tell whether the entry is serious or not). I do like the set a little, but it just needs that slight push to get on a votelist that I foresee will be tightly packed from the sheer number of cool entries that have already this contest.

Finally, I just realized that the "quotes" are apart of the lyrics of "With Me", linked at the start of the set.[/collapse]

This is a rather in-smash set and I like that. Now the set feels really too OP. I mean, Merlina can throw a sh*tload of stuff and traps on the stage who are going to just chill out, making the opponent's life a total hell. To be fair, I think it's more a problem of scale; you should simply reduce the moves' duration. For examples, the Side B and the Down are so freakin' huge you can make a whole platform a deadzone for several seconds. A Warlock Punch from Big G takes a little more than one second so traps that last lor several seconds are just too good. Also I'm rather concerned with the down tilt: while hard to land, sure, it could be a one-hit kill at 0% which is crazy, and with all her projectiles and stuff, she can easily keep the frog offstage. It's an instant-win button if used near a ledge. Also the aerial down attack is completely off the scale; for 4 seconds? Really? Perhaps the opponent can't take damage but you can just turn the stage into a bullet hell during that time...
While I do like some aspects of the set, I'm just concerned with the balance. I'll give you a 3.[/collapse]

by FrozenRoy

SSB Luigi​
You know, I was actually interested in the premise of the set. And, well, it's true it feels like a SSB set.​
It's extremely bland with only the D-Smash being remotely interesting... I mean, this is Sakurai-ish to it's very core. There is no playstyle, except if you consider "Use D-Smash to get little buffs" a playstyle. There is nothing interesting. If there is some kind of hidden in-joke hidden in the set, then you should explain it. Why did you make the set? Sure, it is a SSB set, but that should not be an excuse to miss out on creativity, playstyle and the like!​
I really don't understand how this set came to life in MYM 14. I outright refuse to rate it as I consider it non-canon. Really, please- explain yourself. It outright saddens me to see a set like this coming from you of all people.[/collapse]​
[collapse="BKupa666"]SSB LUIGI
I do know the Luigi. And I do know that there are a handful of playstyle nuggets scattered within the set, namely the token move interactions within the D-Smash thunder zone. While partying like it’s 1999 is certainly novel as far as sets go, I feel it falls rather flat in terms of execution here. The old engine isn’t explored as a concept, so much as seems to have been used as an alibi for the set having fewer inputs than usual. Looking at it from this lens, and as a one day set, Luigi accomplishes exactly what it appears to on the surface level, no more, no less.[/collapse]

by ForwardArrow
[collapse="Katapultar"]We get you are rather ambitious about the voodoo-doll concept as far as movesetting goes, though I at least appreciate the elaboration on Falz's backstory. I was pretty excited to see Chaos Sorcerers included in the set, which are actually pretty well-executed since you can program them to stay close to Falz at the start of the move for Smash charging, and without the necessity to use later moves for that kind of interaction. The Chaos Sorcerer's attacks might seem random, but actually flow into Falz attempting a grab on the foe since the ones that require them close-up don't deal knockback (falz's massive grab range compliments this too since he can grab through a minion). Thought that Falz would have a hard enough time trying to land his grab in a 3v1 setting otherwise.
As far as the voodoo doll effect is concerned, it is given greater room for more interesting exploitations because of the minions, though it does not feel dominant in the set whereas being able to summon more minions at a greater capacity, say more enemies from the Ruins level, would provide an interesting scenario where you can scare enemies into not attacking a massive group of smaller enemies by dumping a soul into one. The later parts of the set compromised by projectiles on nearly each move don't feel as though they work with the voodoo doll effect all that well and seem a bit boring (even if they are somewhat "in-character" for a video game boss), though I admittedly really liked the idea introduced in the Jab where you can keep the projectile hanging around you for protection by charging a Smash attack so you can actually land that insta-death F-Smash. Likewise, the U-tilt introduces something relatively cool in conjunction with the voodoo doll effect. Make no mistake, the set is good, though I feel it was perhaps bogged down by the emphasis on bullet hell when it seemed like you really wanted to take advantage of the voodoo effect what with remaking this character.[/collapse]
[collapse="BKupa666"]DARK FALZI don’t know if I’ve voiced this in the past, but I’m a rather big fan of sets that steal and manipulate souls, and Falz certainly fits the bill in this regard. What differentiates him most successfully is that he doesn’t necessarily have to take advantage of stealing multiple souls, despite being a 3 vs. 1 character, in favor of simply abusing one to waylay the opposing team to the best of his ability. Implanting the soul within an enemy throws a major wrench into their plans, allowing Falz time to capitalize, while doing so into a minion renders it a more stubborn summon. The sub-centerpieces of the set are something to be proud of as well, particularly the option to switch between Falz and an enemy with D-Throw. Sabotaging the enemy team by infiltrating it is juicy enough without the added possibility of pretending to remain on their side for as long as possible to ultimately damage them more over the long run. I do question the F-Smash insta-KO a bit, since despite the difficulty in setting it up, you could probably achieve the effect of its brokenness without going to this extent. On a more minor note, I think the soul-steal could have swapped places with, say, Neutral Special and been a tad more fitting, but this is nitpicking more than anything. You’ve easily achieved what you set out to do in improving this character’s set, so hopefully, his ultimate placement follows suit as well.[/collapse]

Darka Falzazzo
We start with a minor grammatical nitpick: It should probably say "if Falz is KOd OR after 15 seconds" on the grab.
Dark Falz Remix is definately an improvement over the old Dark Falz, which was...not very good, to put it lightly. But Falz Remix is an excellent improvement: The addition of Chaos Sorcerers is a nice touch and I quite enjoy how you work in Falz's smash attack charge ability, while the functionality of souls being stolen is greatly improved and made less broken. The bullet hell is pretty good, though it does lead into one of the issues I have with the set: Later on, some of the projectiles seem quite superflous, making moves that seem to exist just to be another projectile. The playstyle between the bullet hell, soul corruption, Chaos Sorcerers and the F-Smash is all pretty nice, however.
Complaint-wise...I feel like you abused the Chaos Sorcerer's chargeness towards the end. They didn't really need all that stuff aside from helping Falz charge his smashes: that was already cool enough. The added stuff felt like it just bogged it down a little. I was also slightly dissapointed in how having two souls in one opponent was used. I felt that, while what is there is good, it could have been a lot better with some higher uses of this, such as stuff that does one thing to one end and another to the end stitched inside. The playstyle is good without it, but I would have loved to have seen that over the latter Chaos Sorcerer stuff and the superflous D-Tilt.
But with a solid overall playstyle combined with some creative ideas, I daresay your contest is over to a jolly good start, Sir ForwardArrow.[/collapse]

[collapse="Getocoolaid"]Dork Failz
What I remember of the original set is approximately nothing, so I'm coming into this with a fresh mind. Before we even get into this, I think that we should begin to make stages designed specifically for Boss fights, because even this "small" boss is really huge. Obviously this anecdote has nothing to do with my actual opinion on the set, I'm just delaying the comment with it and this following explanation to annoy you. Yes, YOU, FA. Move name hating prick.

Anyway, ooh, lookie, a soul-rip mechanic! I like the way that it's handled here, and I'm already formulating teams to work against it. A tank character would be needed as a sort of artificial lamb, along with a healer and maybe another tank to deal lots of damage to Falz. That's basically my favoritr aspect of boss sets. I like the voodoo doll mechanic at work here too, but that's probably more of me just liking voodoo dool type deals in games in general.

Aside from maybe some balance issues that are present with pretty much every boss set, I can't find too many issues with Falz. So, I liked it. Probably would have liked it more with move names, though.[/collapse]

[collapse="Smash Daddy"]Originally Dark Falz blundered when it came time to take advantage of a fascinating concept in team play bosses, but this remake picks up the ball and takes it to the end zone. There are plenty of great interactions using the soul orbs, plenty of creative functions of the basic idea that make this one of the few unique boss sets and distinct precisely because of that from its forbearer. Most of all I think you should be proud of redeeming the character and making a set that flies the flag of his respective series of games. The Chaos Sorcerers add a whole other layer of depth to the playstyle that greatly helps in defining the less important aspects of Dark Falz. The effects on the smashes do outstay their welcome, but are nonetheless a cool take on how to use a summoned minion, one so acutely simple it’s bizarre we have yet to see a focus on one. The sets funnily enough does have an odd balance in how many of the moves you’d usually see held up as significant, taking a step down to allow for the grab game and orbs to shine. It becomes a bit problematic when the sets starts to really heave on the projectiles and to be perfectly honest, a couple of specials are strangely not that important. I can forgive it on a boss compared to a ‘normal set’ as it isn’t quite as bad to pile on effects or spam projectiles, in the face of what may be aggressive team play. I also can’t imagine the end result being a whole lot better than it is, there’s shockingly only a small amount of things for this character to do outside of what you have him do. What I will say does actually harm the set in my eyes, though, is that you don’t take nearly enough from the base concept to influence one foe’s knockback through their ally. It’s a missed opportunity in an otherwise admirable set.[/collapse]


by Getocoolaid

That's a rather ineteresting set: I like the interactions with the zombies and the fog, which is certainly an useful tool. Now my main problem is with the sword, Vlad; I can't even picture that weapon in mind, it is... a strangely shaped weapon. Also the smashes are really awkward and the mechanics behind it are quite quirky, but not in a very good way. I feel that it's one of the set's two biggest problems. The other one is- apart from some good interactions like I said before, it's not very exciting. The moves are rather bland and really, there is nothing quite unforgettable. Still, I don't dislike it entirely... So I'll give you something llike a 4.5.[/collapse]

Moving on, Volknerr is...different. More gaseous hitboxes, I see, which is nice, but the gas/smoke-based moves don't really seem to blend with the rest of the set. I do like minion sets, but this one feels like the minions are, depending on the scenario, either all the character needs to win, or completely useless. I do like how the set can be used against itself, with Vlad being susceptible to being used against Volknerr's zombies, but when attached to opponents, Vlad seems so powerful that the zombies become pointless in protecting. Why keep slow, avoidable minions around when the sword does 20% damage per hit and can stick to the enemy? The set-ups are good; Volknerr has plenty of moves to move around his zombies and make his opponents susceptible to them. That part of the set is its shining point, in my opinion. So while it's not bad, it feels...a bit cluttered, I suppose. With some refinement, it could easily become a great minion-using moveset.[/collapse]

[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Electric-Type Gym Leader

Okay, he's not REALLY a Gym Leader...

Neutral Special is extremely broken. You say he'll want to call back Vlad, but there isn't any reason too, even if they can slaughter zombies: Volknerr himself should be able to destroy an opponent equipped with this due to getting laggy smashes and the fact that, to me, it seems like his smashes would hit anyone they are embedded into...and even if not, F-Smash is insane for dragging someone off the screen and gimping them by using it again. Especially since Volknerr can recall Vlad before the opponent dies, so he does not even lose Vlad.

Oh, right, and he can Back Throw to make this even worse. And replacing basically an entire moveset with sword slashes is a bad idea in general.

Aside from that, the moveset doesn't seem to really have much playstyle to it, as zombies are just summoned and then...well, to me, it feels like even the basic stuff doesn't flow all that well. The idea of zombies is okay, but I can think of so many better ways to take advantage of them, especially with a character like this who feels like they have a lot of potential behind them. Up Special feels really awkward. And a lot of the moves don't really work into anything, just being moves, which you can get away with if you have a strong playstyle...which this doesn't. So between not having good playstyle or flow, the brokenness and general annoyance from stuff like moveset tweaking, along with the ocassional oddity make it, for me anyway, a very unenjoyable read that did not have many redeeming qualities. I'll take Shadow's flaws any day.[/collapse]

[collapse="Smash Daddy"]In the pantheon of Geto sets, Volknerr is up there, but admittedly has its fair share of problems. It’s in a sense the most basic form of zombie master you can imagine, a character who summons up to a max amount of them and basically doesn’t interact with them. There are certainly a few interesting interactions (although why they turn to bones I’m not sure, isn’t that skeletons?) and the set has a nice, if odd tone. It basically feels like someone’s original character from a Role Play. All the good and bad things come with that distinction; unfortunately I’d say the bad outweighs the good. It’s a fun characterisation that seems to play on the odd pick-ups, items and strange abilities picked up by a character like that. Simultaneously, all these effects and moves that don’t particularly flow together, creating tornadoes and pulling out various weapons… it’s a fun eclectic sort of moveset, but it rarely flows. There is no playstyle section, but I wonder how this character would play if not simply making use of his very easily landed spells and constantly resurrecting zombies. What seals it may be the characterisation being a bit weak. He doesn’t come across as any particular kind of necromancer; frankly you could replace the header image of the character with another image of another RPG class. If you just said the character had obtained a zombie-summoning staff and Vlad, the set could work just the same. If you did focus on the zombies and keep control of the rampant over-creativity, I can see myself warming to this kind of set from you.[/collapse]

by JOE and N88

Favorite set of the contest for now no questions asked. The presentation is really awesome, and the set itself is great. I wasn't disappointed in the least, it was even better than I thought. You're practically guaranteed to get my Super-Vote. A very minor complaint would be the "awkwardness" of some moves like the U-Air but Spidey's style isn't very orthodox anyway...

Also webbing the sky would be too bizarre now; perhaps it would be a good nostalgic reference, but nowadays Spidey is always pictured as using buildings as anchors. And I don't remember webbing the sky in Spiderman 2 on PS2... Or was that point fixed in Spiderman 3?[/collapse]
[collapse="BridgesWithTurtles"]Spider-Man is very good. Great, in fact. There's really nothing I can honestly find negative in the set. The music was a very nice touch, and fit the mood of the text very well, in addition to being so well-timed to my reading speed that it ended at the perfect moment, another plus. I can tell you put a lot of time into this, from the visuals to the audio and even into the presentation of the wording. As for the meat and potatoes of the set, everything blends well into a scrumptious spider-stew of moveset goodness. While it definitely aims at being an unorthodox playstyle - and you did manage to be creative - nothing felt "forced" in that every action is something one would expect Spider-Man to do, and no notable component of the superhero's arsenal was left out. Webbing the opponent as a cocoon suspended from the ledge is a fantastic idea that I must applaud. There's not much else to say. I really like it. Overall, it's a really great set that will certainly have a vote from me. [/collapse]
[collapse="darth_meanie"]Now, I hate to bandwagon praise on a moveset, but it should come as no surprise to anyone that Spider-Man is my favorite set in this contest, bar none. JOE! and n88 prove to be a wonderful combination here, making a moveset that feels perfectly in-smash, full of depth, and unique and fun to play. I can't praise you both enough for resisting the temptation to make the web-slinger web-swing off of the top blast zone or a generic point in space. There's so much depth to be explored in the web swinging mechanic, jumping from low and high points to maneuver the stage. It's hardly a disadvantage for him either; he can still tether to ledges, and even on a stage with no platforms like Final Destination, I can imagine all sorts of neat stunts under the lip. And you further improve upon this with his quality aerial game. This is where I feel the set really does come together. You combine a solid aerial game, unique air movement options with web zip and web swing, and a unique ledge game to make him a gimper and aerial combatant that builds off of the source material and feels right at home at smash. You've even made him perfectly fun for free-for-all and team games with the throw game and other moves that feel right at home in one-on-one matches as well. The minimalistic approach you took also leaves the set with very few weaknesses to point out like I am liable to do.

Good job, plain and simple. I can foresee some complaints that the moveset doesn't spend too much time beating in more and more playstyle concepts in every move, but that's really the sets strength. If anything, you understate all the possibilities with his playstyle and leave it to the reader's imagination, a risky move that often gets penalized but I personally laud. Even the basic standard moves all fit into the basic gameplay-style Spider-Man should have. Up tilt helps him get into his aerial techniques, even a simple down tilt is a move that fits how I'd want Spider-Man to feel while playing, fast weak attacks and covering all the bases he needs to focus on his really interesting elements, instead of forcing it into moves it doesn't belong. In a contest with only two other sets I'd like to even weak vote so far, Spider-Man is leagues above the rest.[/collapse]

[collapse="Katapultar"]Now this is a really awesome kind of set we've been waiting for, one where somebody actually takes a classic comic book character and gives them the 5-star treatment. This actually feels every bit like Spider Man and feels rightfully approached, which for me is practically the pinnacle of perfection when combined with the passionate presentation. My only real nitpick is why Spider Man can't magically tether his Up Special web to the sky and use it to swing around when he's actually seen doing that in his source material, because if it's just for balancing purposes I don't think it would make him overpowering or anything. If I was a Spider Man fan coming in to play this set, I would actually expect the web to do what I just described. The Neutral Special feels a tad dry what with just bluntly trapping the foe, though it would obviously feel very wrong for it to be a trap and illogical to be a generic projectile. It is okay how it is I guess. I don't have much else to say when my praise was already been concentrated at the beginning, but this is a great relic for Spider Man that the two of you should be very proud of. It will definitely get a high vote from me should the time come.[/collapse]

This set has been garnering a lot of attention, and thus far all of it seems to be very positive. I can certainly see why the excitement surrounding this set exists. For one the organization and extras are stellar, I usually don’t like to bring those things up but in this set I do feel they are good enough to actually have some bearing on the set’s quality. That wouldn’t matter if the set itself did not have good points, which it certainly does, with it managing to bring Spiderman’s comic book style to life almost masterfully, making full use of his web slinging, ensnaring, and web grappling for a very mobile playstyle that feels quite fun to play as. It helps that some moves, for example the Neutral and Forward Aerials, actually take a lot of this stuff into account and become much more interesting in the context of it, and you provide some options with his follow ups with his Neutral Special webbing to make it a lot more interesting to use. The Spidey Senses really help bring the set together, both flowing nicely into his highly mobile style and being one of the more interesting counters I’ve seen in a long time. This is as close to a definitive Spiderman set as we’ll ever get and for that reason I can fully understand why some people love it as much as they do.

Now as for my lack of enthusiasm on the set, which mind you, I still like, I think it comes down to 2 things. For one, I feel the set loses a lot of both the fun factor in terms of actually playing it, and a fair amount of playstyle depth, when playing on Final Destination. Sure he still functions fine from a playability standpoint, but the fact that Spiderman gets a lot worse on a very commonly played stage is a point against him. Second of all… I guess blame it on me craving every move does something fancy, but a lot of inputs in the set feel just like they’re there, not actually doing anything unique or fun in the context of Spiderman’s other moves. Sure, there are some inputs that actually are good in that aspect, but just as many are just… there, filling up space and not really holding my interest, or feeling like they’d be any more interesting on Spiderman than any other character. Admittedly, that’s all personal perspective, but I have trouble feeling the same sort of enthusiasm over this set that a lot of other people are.[/collapse]

Spider-man is a technically brilliant moveset with every possibility thought out and addressed, even if it's indirect. The working of Spider-man's Web Swing and Spidey-sense, two very important parts of how the character fights, which were absent in the other Spider-man set, is great. The focus on slick, fast aerial combat works for Spidey well, as does the great web-based grab game. Obviously, it's a beauty to look at, too. Who cares if not every move has a flashy effect? I think you two have stumbled upon what may very well be the perfect Spider-man set.[/collapse]

[collapse="Smash Daddy"]Does whatever a spider can! Spider-Man is a fully self-aware set for an iconic character and takes into account many of the things that are usually taken for granted when it comes time to make a set for such a character. Why not throw out goop bombs of web to stick together platforms and items and etcetera? Well, because that simply is not the iconic Spider-Man. The use of it here makes sense for Smash and the character, in a sense a simplistic form of stun and a way to recover. It’s not generic either, it’s well-established as its own thing, in tandem with a great take on power shielding in the spider sense. I’ve gone long enough without talking about the organisation, but the organisation is stunning. I need not say more, it speaks for itself, what a beautiful take on a comic book layout. There are even some moves thrown in there that reference typical comic book baddy fight moves; beating up multiple enemies, casting them aside as a stall on the ledge or simply batting them into the air to wail on.

My problem is basically that the set doesn’t go deep enough to satisfy my taste for playstyle, it’s quite general and in-keeping to very in-smash ideals. It’s full of simplistic punches and kicks, nothing offensively un-smash, to the point that it’s funnily enough, politically correct. Forgive the obnoxious term, but I hope you can see what I mean by that. I simply do not care as much about direct in-smash implementation as I do an interesting playstyle and do feel even the basic flow could be largely improved upon if you guys were opener about flashier moves. Just as a throwaway example, pulling up slabs of the stage, it’s not used to its fullest potential. I still like the set and I respect it a tonne more than I like it, this set would fit in smash very well and users can disagree that this is all they want out of a set. Personally I like to think all sets start out a bit more ambitious even in Sakurai’s case and have to be moulded into something that slots into the game, so trying to replicate the process leaves me a bit unimpressed, though not disappointed. This is pretty much what any person would expect from a Spider-Man set.[/collapse]


by FrozenRoy

[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Sho Minamimoto
Now I’ve been meaning to comment this set for a bit, because I’ve told you for a while that I thought you would never make a set I would be willing to SV. I think maybe me being so harsh in that regard got through to you, because this set is absolutely fantastic and it’s going to take a hell of a lot of work for ANYONE to top this as my favorite in the entire contest.

There are a lot of reasons why, to start off the basis gives him a very unique pressure tool in the i Flare, a risky one to utilize given how long Sho has to wait to pull it off where the foe can act on their own accord, but one that makes fighting against Sho’s minions a great deal more intense as they frantically try to get to the mastermind himself. The minions themselves though, I feel are the real reason this set shines so much. All of them have a very interesting flare to them and feel both interesting to fight against and to utilize, and work well into the minion manipulation Sho has later in the set in his throws and tilts, which are all great in their own right, being both creative and yet fitting very practically into Sho’s playstyle by giving him both a lot of control and yet plenty of ways for the foe to interact.

This all, especially in the Smashes, ends up giving Sho an extremely extensive playground around his minions and stage construction that never once feels entirely unfair to foes or too derivative of another set. Frankly, I’m kind of surprised we haven’t ever seen tethers used this effectively to handle minions before, nor the concept of allowing foes to steal minions, and for that matter giving Sho the ability to fight back against them. I had little hope for that concept when you first mentioned it to me but in all honesty I think that ends up being one of the most interesting parts of Sho’s playstyle. On top of that, I can tell you really enjoy this character with all those references to his actions and eccentric attitude in game, along with the various mathematical jokes to make reading the set a very easy and enjoyable experience. The most I can really level against the set is there is the occasional filler move in the aerials, as well as the Jab, but even those moves are at least practical and become more interesting in the rest of his set. One again, congradulations Froy, you have really outdone yourself.[/collapse]

[collapse="Getocoolaid"]Shoe Mini Nintendo
The use of minions and summons in this set is absolutely brilliant, give yourself a pat on the back for it. Level Flare is also great on it. As is all the stuff to do with the garbage pile. And don't get me started in the grab game! And also-

Let's just say I pretty much love every single word typed in this set, that it's basically going to be a high Supervote (my SVS are going to have a lot of Froy...) and that you should be proud of having created this. K? K.[/collapse]

[collapse="Smash Daddy"]A self-described masterpiece is Sho. I can see that. From the start, the writing style and consistent tone is great, the organisation taken from Ocon is complimented very well by the layout and limited use of images. It looks and reads better than any of your other sets. The set doesn’t especially get amazing until you hit the minion special. The use of frames as measurement, the risk-reward styling, the simple ordering and cohesion of effects that are finely-tuned… it’s some of the best, simplest minion creation I’ve ever seen. This is a field totally untouched by movesets in a sense. Sets generally go for flashy interaction-heavy minions or ones that have no hard interactions and are about as deep as Dedede’s Waddle Doo. To see a set that actually thinks outside the box for once when it comes to minions puts a smile on my face and I kept smiling when reading this set, as it kept strong all the way to the last move. The tether I loved when presented in Kitanji are improved upon in this set, making for a fantastic couple of tilts. The interaction-heavy garbage dumps and their equivalent soft interactions as basic walls are excellently crafted. The smashes are a fantastic improvement on your usual standards for smashes, but forgetting that, just excellent in taking advantage of the playing field without losing touch of balance or consistent tone. The smaller details of Sho using his megaphone to shout down opponents or waste time of his own accord, disavowing teammates, or generally to be an annoying control freak, are constant and that is impressive considering the breadth of detail, as well as quality.

The sole complaint I can level is that Sho over-reaches in a couple moves. He can teleport too freely and pull around foes at the same time around the potentially, utterly covered stage. His absolutely ludicrously powerful neutral special makes any match-up against Sho one that most any foe would find difficult to control. But there are two things holding that complaint back for me. One, it’s a complaint I wouldn’t level against the set unless it was already impressively balanced for Smash otherwise. Two, it does fit perfectly in what the character’s underlying effects on a match-up should be. And the set is very well characterised indeed, from the writing style to the laissez-faire nature of some central moves, arrogant in their success while dismissing the shortcomings. This is counter-balanced by a dichotomy of choice on part of the player, given an infinite amount of ways to build on the stage and not for a second forgetting the limitations of Smash Bros. It loses that clinging to zeroing-in on complete perfection that a few of your sets have, but I applaud your decision to take a new direction and try an unorthodox execution. It doesn’t lose what makes you, well, you, it actually makes emphasises your unique style to its maximum degree. In all, the set is a fantastic example of an inspired concept given full attention by someone who is very talented. No question you can put the character and the game away if you want to, it may be impossible to create a better adaptation for Smash Bros.[/collapse]


by valve3

Safety Valve
Anything more than 2 is too much.
The most problematic thing I find about this set is that it feels like it has an odd dichotomy of vehicle mechanics and how the set plays with the TNT. It feels like something that would want to naturally start and stop even with the ability to do things on the move, but that totally murders your ability to move and the playstyle you seem to be going for. It all feels kind of scattershot in that regard: I feel this would have been done much better if it was not a vehicular set.
I also didn't really like the concrete or the ramps in this moveset: The way the ramps are introduced as being made feels horribly strange and the concrete feels like it was better used in a set such as, say, Ant HIll Mob. The concrete platforms do admittedly feel a bit cool with how he can use them with his anti-grav...but with how he is needing to move a lot to get his great movement speed it again feels awkward in the context of vehicular mechanics. There's also the fact it feels like some numbers in general are a bit out of whack, like taking so long to slow down at full speed, the length of some moves or the absurd strength of the missile. I also find the "stuff popping under the stage" awkward here: it doesn't feel as fitting as older sets we've had with that.
Still, this does have some good ideas, like the anti-grav and the TNT in general. But I just don't feel they can get over the stuff I do not like and other inputs that just feel...meh. On the other hand, it's not something I'd say I hate either, so...well, yeah, that's about it, something I just kinda vaguely dislike and have a lot of issues with.[/collapse]

[collapse="Smash Daddy"]Nitros Oxide’s a refreshing change of pace for vehicle sets, a new set of rules, something I welcome in any ‘genre’ of movesets. Oxide is a different beast than the others and that gives his circuit playstyle a jolt of life, the two elements creating a nice original playing set that makes sense for the character. What I like about the set is the ramps, the boost pads and crates working together to make a death zone, but not an absolute one. It’s quite versatile for opponents to avoid this and Oxide does have ways to counter the responses, not in any broken way. I do have a problem with how melee moves don’t flow that well into those things I just said I liked, as they mostly just exist to branch out his basic match-ups. The characterisation on the surface is very good, but I do feel some of the character is sacrificed to create easy-to-use moves that while having a good fit in the playstyle, are huge wedges that have far too wide a use. The set’s already bordering on overpowered and while I wouldn’t say the concrete puts it over the edge, I don’t think it’s too useful in a normal match. It’s a nice tool, but in Smash I can’t see it being much more than an obstruction. It’s not a definitive vehicle set from you, but I still quite like it regardless.[/collapse]

[collapse="ForwardArrow"]N. Oxide
Dear god this is an all positive block have I gone insane or am I genuinely starting to like this contest. N. Oxide introduces mechanics that admittedly seem like they clash in the vehicle mechanics and the explosive crates. Certainly, that provides a problem if the Oxide player isn't keeping themselves in control, but if you ask me that just creates an interesting penalty for failure and the actual way Oxide's spacers work in the context of his set ups is fairly interesting. They feel versatile enough to keep him out of trouble as well as specifically suited to putting his opponents in nasty situations. It's not like the actual set up idea is bad either, being able to create systems that launch crates in every which direction in complex loops in conjunction with all this anti-gravity stuff is all pretty fun as far as set ups go.

Again, to give my token complaints about the set, the concrete suffers for me in that it's... really all fairly irrelevant if you ignore the anti-gravity devices. I know it's a special, but the fact that the move is just totally worthless otherwise feels off, though you try to attach a bunch of gimmicky effects to it which I feel really don't give it any more purpose. It's also bizarre some of the ways you suggest using the ramps as pits to murder the foe in, thankfully not brought up in the rest of the set but still feeling ultimately a bit off. Lastly... I know he has the spacers to allow him to thrive within his set ups, but after the specials and smashes he doesn't really have anything interesting to DO with his set ups other than knock foes into them. Which, certainly is the sensible thing to do but I just wish there were some interesting ways to mess around with them in the standards too instead of just a ton of spacers, though with how his vehicle mechanics work I know you needed a lot to keep him from being worse off in this set up than the foe. What you have is fine as far as I'm concerned, just it does feel like it could've been better.[/collapse]


by FireEmblenier


by peeup

[collapse="Katapultar"]I was rather surprised with how far you took this set, enough so to easily consider it to be by far your best ever. The fact that you're playing as a bed makes the set interesting right off the bat, and it's even more interesting when his stats are actually -good- but is only offset by being a massive character (seriously, we've had sets for cars, rocks and whales but we've never had a set for a bed!). I really like the Down Special in that it's appealing from a lot of perspectives, being interesting as an attack but also for the character - at first I kinda wished the Boomps weren't invincible, but then I realized it made perfect sense since they come from a children's show and as such you wouldn't want to burden the player with the worry that their companions might die. The simple use of the Boomps is also well-done in that their use feels Disney-like, what with the potential of being able to smack the enemy around even down to their lack of (initial) killing potential. There's some excellent form and characterization throughout the whole set, from the Icarus' use in the Side Special, and even the climactic-ish teamwork of the Down Special. D-air is a personal favorite animation of mine, it's really awesome.

Execution-wise, you've got some decent stuff and actually pretty self-aware of what's going on. The Neutral Special almost made me cringe at the aspect of having to charge an attack for 8-20 seconds until you mentioned that charging halfway or so was still effective - what's nice is that these affected moves aren't even broken due to having some end lag on them, and really interesting when you take into account the fact that Nemo is struggling to get his scepter beyond his already massive hitbox. The playstyle pretty much speaks for itself in that you ward enemies off the ground with Boomps and Icarus before beating them around with your air game, taking advantage of the transcendent priority of your huge-ranged weapon via being in the air to gain an overwhelming advantage - that is actually pretty good.

If I'm going to level any complaints against, they're veeeery slight - I think it's slightly out-of-character for Nemo to summon the enemies he's trying to destroy for his Final Smash, whereas you'd think he'd have something much better in the form of his scepter or Boomp friends. You also need to get a new picture for Nemo, and I don't know what Disney thing or what not he comes from. That aside, excellent work.[/collapse]

[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Little Nemo
This is the first set you’ve ever made with an actual awareness of playstyle, and the ideas here aren’t bad at all. You have a minion to serve as a distraction and 5 serving as traps, plus a weapon that becomes much easier to power up when they’re all on board and variable weight, and you basically have to manage your resources between them. I actually kind of like how the Boomps work, since you can either make a giant more powerful minion or attempt combos by spacing them further away from each other and abusing your obscene range once you get your sword charged. Meanwhile, you can use them as defense while you charge your sword in exchange for having to charge for longer to get a result, creating a rather interesting balancing act.

Admittedly, I wish there was all a little more substance to this given most of his attacks are just a sword stab in X direction, though you impress me a bit by actually making them aware of the character’s body shape and mechanics beyond just a mere mention in the earlier moves. The bed attacks serve as an okay defense for when his sword is non-existent too but they don’t contribute to the set otherwise, and I really wish maybe they could help a little more with that obscene charge time Nemo needs for the full power blade. As a last note, I know it’s just percentages but the grab, pummel, and teamwork throws feel like they are so good you would do nothing but spam them once you get your set up maxed out and strike me as awkwardly powerful even before then, given he has a pummel that deals 7% a pop and a throw that deals 22%. Don’t let it worry you too much though, this is undoubtedly your best set by far and if you stick around I can easily see you achieving much greater heights than this.[/collapse]

[collapse="Smash Daddy"]Peeup and Koric on the same page is a true delight, recalling you both as well as I do. It’s obvious that you’ve brushed up on your general writing and have a consistent vision for how Little Nemo plays throughout the specials of the set. It’s definitely a huge positive how the characters on the bed interact; your attention to balance in comprising this weight system that uses characters up in important moves is great. That’s something that Ant Hill Mob also did recently, but it’s hard to say in which set the balancing part, not the actual use of it, is more appropriate a fit. While the up special isn’t so great, the other two specials set up the set well. Disappointingly, after the specials, the set loses its initial lustre. It’s a profound drop in not only detail and quality, but also in relevance. We don’t see any mention of the original concepts of a multi-weight bed, even when a simple move would be affected by it. The consequences of trading up your Oomps are neither given a second thought. That’s a terrible shame because I really thought after those specials you’d come back and made a good set, which after that long a break from set making, would be one for the books. Though there are successes to be taken from this outing and I hope you make another soon, as the criticisms I can make here are fairly obvious. I’m far more optimistic when it comes to those, as opposed to subtler flaws that are hard to articulate. Keep at it, peeup.[/collapse]

[collapse="TheKalmarKing"]Little Nemo
I like how sending the Boomps on the stage modify the sats of the bed, allowing it to be either a light-weight or a heavy-weight (Even though the player will want to stay a light-weight due to the Boomps being really good traps). Also while the N-Spec sounds good, I don't think it would practical, even with the little charge quirks. It IS an important part of Nemo's gameplay though, increasing his range and all that. Other than that I can't say anything new, Kat covered it well enough...[/collapse]
[collapse="BridgesWithTurtles"]Little Nemo - Right off the bat, I just need to point out that while I have no idea what kind of acid-trip piece of animation these characters come from, I truly appreciate that you were passionate enough about this apparently obscure work to make a moveset for them. As someone who has great enthusiasm for animation history, I'm really glad to see more animated character movesets that don't come from an action anime or Disney flick.

I like the very concept of the character(s) as well, controlling a piece of furniture is a rather interesting idea, and unlike a vehicle set, the bed's size and magical properties don't limit it to a wildly unconventional playstyle. It's unique, but it's not un-Smash, and not really that complex. Anyone who could play as Mario or Link could play as Nemo without much trouble. It's a pretty nifty "cargo" set that've probably been done in MYM before, but I've yet to come across one.

As for the gameplay itself, I like the special moves, as they all have their concrete uses and they interact with the rest of Nemo's moves well enough. I do feel like a 6-second recovery time is a bit long for Icarus, even if the move is pretty useful. A lot of the aerials, smashes, and tilts feel like repeats of one another, but they all have their uses and I'm sure it's in-character, so I have little to complain about. Don't take any criticism I may have too seriously; most of my less-than-enthusiastic comments are more personal curiosity than outright criticism. Anyway, as Forward Arrow said, the grabs and pummel seem pretty OP and detract a bit from Nemo's other moves. As another plus, I like the resource management with the bed's weight. However, I went into the set expecting more moves to make use of the bed's passenger count, but Down Air and pummel are really the only ones that do. I suppose the main intention is to keep the Boomps on the field to act as hazards, but it still would've been nice to see them more involved in direct attacks. Once again though, this is probably just in-character, so there's really not too much weight behind my point. All in all, it's a pretty cool set. Short, sweet, and to the point as well, so kudos for that.[/collapse]


by Koric

[collapse="Smash Daddy"]Koric! I’ve missed you in chat, dude. This set’s exactly what I’d expect from you, very methodical, clear and functional. This is precisely what you’d expect from Riesz considering her set of weapons and I’ve no doubt you take deep consideration from the source material. The problem is that you don’t do well at carrying across this incredible expertise in the set. It’s an absolute crime that the detailed extras, going into specifics on transformations and a levelling system, will probably be ignored. It’s hidden away, though not very inviting when you do find it. That’s linked to the overall problem with the set, it’s kind of stuffy and doesn’t flow that evidently. You undoubtedly poured a tonne of effort into making this as you always do, but as I’ve said before, you would learn so much if you simply read, heck even commented, other sets. I’ll admit now, it sucks I’m the guy who reads every one of your sets because I suck at commenting them.[/collapse]


by Conren


Or wait, I hear it's trendy now to change the name of the set, making it more difficult for the reader to pick out exactly what you're talking about

Quen Elizabee III

That better? Don't judge me, I'm new to this. Anyway, this being the first set I've read in a good while, I'm pleased to say that I actually enjoyed it! Sending a swarm of semi-sentient servants to do your dirty work is a concept that, yes, has been played with before, but it's by and large the best way to handle a Vespiquen.

One thing I appreciated about the set, early on, was the good amount of life and personality you put into the animations - in both senses. Full animations for attacks are rare in MYM sets, particularly custom ones. Tiny frowns on the Combee as they fly away, having failed their queen, and Vespiquen's royal persistence to remain standing even while asleep - these are very tiny things, but they add a lot to the set's charm. ...which is why I was disappointed when the voice petered out somewhere around the aerials, to be replaced with a dry (but still perfectly functional) tone.

Something of a confession to make, actually, which lead to me appreciating the set all the more in the end - I had entirely forgotten what was meant by "ordered attacks" until the reminder at the beginning of the playstyle section, thinking it was just a slick little thing on the down tilt and the down tilt specifically. I then had to ask a few questions, visually, such as how practical staying in the air to input all these commands to her swarm actually is, and approximately how ridiculous it would look. But really, it works pretty well, as Vespiquen is, ultimately, orchestrating a complicated dance of sorts, with simple pokes and points. Perhaps not QUITE how "real" bees do it, but a nice connection.

I WAS left wishing that Attack Order gave the user a bit more control over the swarm which was sent out. That is to say, it's simply stated that she can fire them out rapidly... I might've had the "lead" Combee stay in place for a brief moment if the input was being mashed repeatedly, allowing you to group a few together, but that's a minor quibble. Other such minor quibbles include the deterioration of proper spelling towards the very end of the set, and maybe how incredibly out of place beam sword animations felt, especially before the final smash. Oh and also I think you misused the term "doppler effect" (referring to sound dilation from an object passing by an observer) here, but it got the gist across.

Edit: Haha nope I was TOTALLY WRONG and that was an acceptable use of "Doppler effect" and this is an excellent animation of it

I'll let the other folks go ahead and comment on how "playstyle this, playstyle that," but suffice it to say that I like the core concept, and the voice and move animations greatly added to the set's overall feel. I only wish said feel was consistent.[/collapse]

[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Eater of Vespi

To tell the truth, I'm really afraid of bees and wasps and the like. They just make me REALLY uncomfortable. But this is one queen bee I can get behind.

The Olimaresque feel of this set is simply exquisite, building off the base idea in more innovative and flowing ways than said Olimar, but never losing touch with the intuitative feel of the plucky little captain. I especially love what you did with the Specials: Attack Order is a great way of both translating the attack and giving Vespiquen a nice playstyle piece, Patrol Order makes the most out of a Pokemon with an extremely limited skillset in Combee and Defend Order is an interesting and unique recovery option that uses Yoshi-esque armor, which is surprisingly underdone. Managing your Combee eternally remains a key part of the playstyle due to both how central they are to every part of the moveset and yet how fragile each Combee is. In a way, this reminds me of a set of mine, Alice Margatroid.

The tilts are all okay, and Down Tilt's animation is quite amazing, but I personally really liked the Smashes: U-Smash really takes advantage of the ability to order, D-Smash takes good note of Ness-esque charge damage and F_Smash is just plain fun. But a move I really like from this moveset is the Neutral Aerial, which greatly rewards proper Combee placement by letting you spam out hitboxes, but at the same time offers great risk due to needing to spread your vulnearable Combee around via things like ATtack Order.

In short, despite some move's dryness, Vespiquen's stinging playstyle working towards a long KO is quite worthy of a look and I feel that, so far, it is actually one of the better movesets this contest. Good work, Conren![/collapse]

[collapse="BridgesWithTurtles"]My opinion of Vespiquen is largely mixed, but I do have more good to say than bad. The Pokémon is very much in-character, for one thing, which is important. I like the way the Combee work, and this set goes far in demonstrating just how many different ways minion-using sets can function. The command moves seem to share a universal taste for oddly-shaped, disjointed hitboxes, which is praise-worthingly creative and refreshing to see. The way they combo into each other is pretty cool, and makes the character seem rather entertaining to play as. The way that Patrol Order works is pretty neat, and makes Vespiquen have a sort of stage presence befitting of an all-reaching monarch. I also like how each move notes its damage output before its description, rather than inside of it. More praise for your animation as well, which really does help illustrate the way that Vespiquen's animations work.

I do have a few dislikes. For one, the writing style, which kind of makes it difficult to follow at times. But not usually, so it's not much of a problem. Vespiquen's moves without Combee are also pretty bland, but it makes sense, and I'm certainly not all that gung-ho about sets using in-Smash elements at times, especially if it makes sense. If anything, Vespiquen's stale standards give the player all the more reason to use the more interesting Combee moves, if their benefits weren't already incentive enough.

Not much else I have to say. It's pretty good, in my eyes. It could be a tad more interesting, but eh, what do I know? I'd play the character if I could, so it's definitely something I'd say is commendable.[/collapse]

[collapse="Smash Daddy"]The minion use in Vespiquen is the exact kind of minion use I’ve always enjoyed. It’s not remotely awkward or gimmicky, it’s simply a universal way to help branch out your playstyle. Not only does it increase versatility, but sheds a new light on the most basic of this Pokémon’s moves. You can tell this set had plenty of thought put into how to make it, as every move has a use in the playstyle that is well-defined and generally creative. There’s little to complain about. If I were to nitpick, I’d nitpick redundancy on some of the swarming moves, or the grab game, which is fairly ‘short’ compared to other input sections. Not bad, but not as good as the rest of the set.

Where the set comes into its own is in the interactions, those wonderful Combees that augment and alter every facet of Vespiquen’s moveset. The idea to keep them on patrol is quite a good one, making it easy to keep vague semblance of stage control if the player is willing to sacrifice time creating these set-ups. I love that animation, that is worthy of a regular vote on its own. Truly a wonderful bit of work and demonstrates how fun it’d be to create patterns of these minion Pokémon swooping in and causing damage to the foe. It’s dynamic, but simple – creative, but acutely self-aware. It’s astonishing that you’ve come so far and you deserve all the praise I can give for making this great set.[/collapse]

This set is a pretty huge improvement for you Conren, actually having a surprisingly strong yet open ended playstyle with the way her Combees are used. They can either be a close ranged defense to give Vespiquen better recovery and survivability, or dedicated to performing various "ordered attacks" around the stage, activated by throwing them out to attack. It feels like a very logical expansion on Olimar while remaining incredibly intuitive and in smash. That's not to say it's uninteresting though, you have a ton of cool inputs like the Smashes and the Nair in here to supplement the playstyle, and the bizarre shapes and combos of the combee swarm attacks makes it so I feel the set has a lot more depth than it appears too at a glance.

If I had to nitpick, the set isn't always at as high of a point as the Smashes and Nair in the ordered attacks, which are otherwise solid but not really anything worth getting excited over on their own, and the throws in particular feel like a wasted opportunity, not really making use of what made the other attacks in this set fun, just being attacks that get generically stronger with more combees. Those attacks are also drier in terms of attack description, which is a shame when the vivid descriptions earlier on give so much character. It's not a huge complaint though, because the set never really descends into anything outright objectionable and I do enjoy "simple yet deep" sets, of which this certainly fits the bill.[/collapse]


by FrozenRoy


This is a submission I intended to read and review soon after it was initially posted. Unfortunately or fortunately, life got in the way and I had to significantly postpone this comment. It's not much anyway, just my standard spiel. Anyway, Froy, I apologize this took so long.

So, what I like about Kamon is his suicidal moveset and playstyle. He's pretty much the epitome of high-risk, high-reward characters. I like how the wicks on the dynamite can be cut down in length, but I didn't expect you to allow for such precision. It's a startling decision, but a smart one, as the ability to control exactly when one's dynamite goes off adds that much more depth to Kamon's game. Relatively few of Kamon's attacks lack a risk factor, which serves to make Kamon a "Difficult, but Awesome" sort of fighter that we seem to love so much in MYM. The interactions between Kamon's moves are all there, and all serve a well-thought out purpose. At first I thought some of them were filler until I read further and saw how they worked into his playstyle; the best example would be his down tilt, with its tripping that puts enemies into potent situations no matter where they tech, given Kamon's volatile stage hazards.

My only problem is the Playstyle "section", which, as you said, didn't even need to exist since the moveset itself illustrates it so well on its own (another thing I praise this set for). You didn't really need to make a section like that and plainly state it's unnecessary; that's obvious by the moveset itself. I dunno. That kind of stuff just bugs me.[/collapse]


by Dr. Slavic

[collapse="Smash Daddy"]
Hello Dr. Slavic, I’d love to hear more about your history as a lurker on this site and hope you do stick around for a long time making sets with us. Immediately Spider strikes me as a set that actively creates a character you can relate to as a player, in spite of the unusual size and shape. It’s not an easy character from the get-go, but you adapt to this difficulty like a natural. The weapon switch combined with a shield, a sort of counter that helps to balance the set in Spider’s favour, is cool and the options it gives Spider solely in the specials is impressive. Already at this point the set is building up a personality, if not yet a fully-developed one. The set doesn’t take off like it could have done at this point, as we get to some strange moves. The smashes are far, far too direct of moves for smashes, they don’t leave any room for personality because they’re such stalwarts of Smash Bros movesets. A character digging a hole or planting a mine underground that casually travels forward isn’t very distinctive. The set also doesn’t actually have much of a truly unique playstyle. It’s a set defined by the moves, as easily imagined as they are, it’s not a good adaptation if the character basically just brings out every tool it has on a suitable input and the playstyle ends up being a sum of those parts. Nonetheless, it’s a strong first set and one that shows plenty of promise, the extra sections and care you put into the layout, post-set sections and stats are wonderful, you should try to make your next set a little more colourful and use more images if you can find them, though.[/collapse]


I suppose I'll go back and throw Dr. Slavic a comment, eh? It is long overdue!

Spider is a fun little set and a good way to start off: The weapon swap is decent, the projectiles give a solid playstyle, and little bits like the Back Throw are fairly cool, even if the set is at it's core pretty basic. The moves could use some more tightness, but the combo/projectile game shines through enough to say it is decent. I like how Spider doesn't like being in the air and has an air game to accomidate that, while still being decent. The lack of a back aerial is very dissapointing, though. There are a few other moves I don't like either: For example, I don't like how U-Throw ultimately NEEDS the Missile Launcher, I'd rather have it just do something extra with it, and I am generally opposed to pitfalls like on the D-Smash because they're just a worst trip/Paralyzer stun.

Still, it is a pretty good start (Certainly better than mine!). I hope we see more from you, Dr. Slavic, because you seem to have good ideas and your MU was fun. I hope this comment was helpful. :)[/collapse]


by BridgesWithTurtles


Sorry for not commenting this for so long, Turtles! I meant to do it a while back but, well, as you can see my commenting went fail for a while there!

The Moon Stone chart at the top is a bit hard to understand on first read admittedly, but once you do the concept is quite nice, especially when combined with the set's focus on 2v2 and the ability to shift moon stones at any time...and then you get into the attacks that can use Moon Stones for different effects! A very simple yet effective bit of ideasing there, Turtles. I especially enjoy the Forward Smash, as the variety of options feel unique while all retaining their own functionality. Down Smash's elegant repositioning and use of Moon Stone switching is pretty great too, though.

The Pirate Shield is a cool idea, as a counter that bestows a shield for yourself or an ally, plus the fact it remains unbroken because of projectiles and grabs while severely limiting 2v2s, a Vyse flinging himself around could make it quite hard for them to hit your ally, but of course team attack makes it double edged, too...quite nice. Cutlass Fury is also insanely cool, as you can cancel it into all kinds of things for a variety of options, mixups and even possibly mindgames while still having very useful attacks with the attack by itself...and all those multi-hit moves really do a number with the Moon Stones.

This is also one of the few movesets I have seen that puts in situationals like that and makes them more than just little extra things. It is handled well, I'd say: the attacks feel like they fit but without being too overwhelming as to feel odd for Ledge/Floor/Trip/Etc inputs. Quika is also really cool, as the use of teleporting with some of Vyse's attacks (The F-Smash comes to mind for it's variety of possible stone uses) combined with Moon Stone shifting makes it versatile, but not in too much of a way, as the foe always has the ability to react and the timing is strict, ensuring skill in use...and it doesn't fall into the trap of versatility without playstyle, as this falls right into his playstyle. And how about that Hoist! Imagine using a Quika to get to a teammate who is trying to aerially pursue a foe, then toss them up with a quick, well placed Hoist?

I hadn't seen Back Aerial before, but the ability to quickly shift to Silver as a surprise is nice.

The playstyle here was simply excellent: The attacks flowing into a 2v2 are sublime and the 1v1 playstyle is strong enough that the moveset easily holds its own. The mixups and tech chases, things I quite adore, mixed up with a simple yet effective playstyle of quicker, less damaging strikes with the ability to bring the hurt with a well timed Side Special or counter is simply great, and the use of versatile Moon Stone shifts on moves like Forward Smash and Back Aerial offer some really nice options, without remaining overwhelming. You wanted to beat ChuChus? Well, you just did.

Two things to point out, though: A good deal of the numbers are a bit whack, like the Down Throw lasting forever, and the writing style can get a bit long and drawn out in spots. I don't feel like it did TOO much overall, a lot of the little bits were things I like, but I can definately see people disliking it. For example, the way the Down Smash is described, it took me a moment to get HOW he repositioned the ally/foe.[/collapse]

I'm going to be the token downer on this set and say I don't think it's better than Chu Chus, on the basis that Chu Chus relied less on a painfully awkward mechanic with element switching, that assigns every character an element when said elements do not exist in the actual game, then modifying attacks damage to enemeis of a specific element anyway if Vyse is that element because screw consistency. What's a standout problem in that mechanic is how badly he screws over characters who are double weak, because they take a noticeably larger amount of damage from Vyse's attacks than anyone else, or just the fact that people have to memorize a chart and every character affinity when some of them don't even make sense(why the heck is Sho ICE of all things?) I know MYM sets are not all intuitive, but having the memorize that much just seems like a pain. Past that, I feel the set really just comes down to tech chases, combos, and follow ups, fairly standard in smash stuff which if anything might be better without that obnoxious mechanic weighing it down, though it will occasionally allow for decent mid combo options. Side Special, Dash Attack, and Up Special serve as(in Side Special's case, somewhat overpowered) enablers to these standard combos and tech chases that feel... ultimately rather bland and occasionally frustrating foes rather than extending actual depth in comboing.

I guess the use of his moves becomes a tad bit more interesting in the context of 2v2, such as making the skeleton shield into something you'd ever actually see come up again, but it's problematic to me that it is never mentioned outside of the context of 2v2 and just serving as a gimmicky counter in 1v1 with no flow into the rest of the set. Even in 2v2 though, aside from requiring more strategy with the element switching I don't feel you give his moves strong enough application, Down Smash feeling a bit too weak in it's effect to really have an impact worth damaging your ally over, or in other cases the animation just coming across as ridiculous. How does he boost them up with his arms in Up Tilt when he's also swinging his swords upward? I won't deny there's an existent 1v1 playstyle and some of the 2v2 stuff is at least functional, but the set doesn't really manage much beyond just existing and not being heavily flawed past it's initial mechanic to me. I really wish it went anywhere beyond that, but there's not really any unique concepts held here and the execution feels just as banal as what it's based on.[/collapse]


by Katapultar

I'll admit I've been sort of questioning the direction you've been taking with your sets lately, with Minami, Mistleteinn, and Mukae generally going for a much simpler approach than before in a style that you are clearly not used too. In Minami it worked out and I certainly like parts of Mistleteinn, but I kind of missed the old more creative Kat. Well this set brings that side of you back, with lessons learned from the previous sets for that matter. You have an interesting take on Koala Kong's infamous ground chunk riding in the Neutral Special, what with it more playing into bullet hell here than it does gimping... and come the Nair, you give the ability to create an entirely customizable path to send your "platform" flying across and minions can ride it. Speaking of the minions, they are kind of brilliant in all the control you have of them. I particularly like that you can just stack them on top of each other in a tower to give them a vantage point to fire from, as well as the way the grab game plays with them and the ability to arm them with a lot of Salvatore's more powerful attacks.

The set doesn't really have any glaring flaws unlike your usual stuff in spite of all the great creativity, so I figure I'll just nitpick on one individual move I actually do like but think maybe could've been better. Nair makes for some crazy customizable projectile paths if used right sure, and is absolutely fantastic in conjunction with NSpecial... I just wish it was all more user friendly, because those paths will A. divert projectiles whether or not you want them too while they are out and B. disappear after anyone fires a projectile, meaning if some dumb minion fires a bullet at the wrong time your whole crazy bullet path is ruined. They aren't hard to make sure, but it makes the move seem like far more of a headache to use than I wish it was. And there are just some weird inputs and underspecifications here and there, like the Sniper Rifle being a melee attack despite firing a bullet and I'm kind of curious as to whether multiple fire attacks can stack their effects on a rocket. Because in the context of a bullet hell set like this that would make that move a lot more exciting if it did work, but I can't tell. This is again, all just nitpicking as I really do like this set, but there are a couple things hampering my enjoyment of it to put it truly among the elite.[/collapse]

[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Salvatore Dali

Mmmm, that outfit.

Your Forward Throw is actually very similiar to a concept I had for Roy Koopa. Not a bad thing: I just found it amusing.

Salvatore's Neutral Special offers an excellent start to this set and quite quickly endeared me to it: even leaving aside the ability to travel on it, which is quite brilliant and fun, the way the prokectile works with ground embedement and such is really quite cool. The Gunner minions work quite well into this, I feel: The minion arming is much cooler here than it ever was in Kang and has a LOT of options...although I do feel like the minion orders could have been streamlined somehow, though I'm not sure what suggestion I would make for it. Not removing options, as I like the options, just streamlining how to get them. The standards are pretty slick and, while remaining basic, offer a good deal of playstyle: The Down Tilt and Dash Attack are two inputs I especially enjoyed.

My biggest problem with this set probably came from some moves that felt very awkward, and nothing exemplified that more than Up Smash: It's very flashy and very confounding, I had to easily read it twice to understand what it did, and it did not feel like it contributed to the set much. The Neutral Aerial wasn't an input I particularly liked either, not so much for the reasons FA suggested, as much as it feels very awkward and not working well with your bullet game in general: The only thing it works with is making a track for your NSpec bullet to ride on, which is okay, but it just doesn't feel well when combined with her game overall. On the flipside, I loved the Down Smash, which felt very cool without being overly flashy and still remaining playstyle relevant.

So ultimately, Salvatore felt like a good set, albeit with some flaws. But the good outshined the bad and so I thoroughly enjoyed it.[/collapse]


by JOE!

[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Pain Train

Glad to see Pinsir is out and out quick: I'm working on Heracross, my end of the exchange, and hope to have something to show for it soon, although E3 will probably eat up my day tomorrow. :)

The Pain Train is quite an adapt name here, as Pinsir's wide variety of command grabs combined with decent normal grabs giving him quite a healthy game in that regard, while Focus Energy is a real cool buff: The different tiers of charge and the fact Pinsir gets equivalent debuff time is quite nice. My favorite part about the set is how all the command grabs and throws all work together, as it creates a nice, tight and cohesive playstyle, with Focus Energy getting it's due in the Smashes. It's all very cool stuff. I was a bit weary of the boulder in previews, though it was an interesting idea, but I feel that the worry was unfounded in this regard: the boulder serves a really neat function throughout the set and definately feels more like an asset than a problem.

What I dislike about this set is that about half of the standards and aerials don't feel like they do anything, even in the context of outside the playstyle or providing weaknesses, they're just kinda...there. Brick Break is cool, I like the Dash Attack, BAir is okay and DAir's freeze frame use is cool, but even then only Brick Break and maybe the dash attack feel like they go with anything, while everything else feels more or less...there, nothing added to the substance of Pinsir, and nothing keeping my interest. I think that with a little more of the tight focus Pinsir displayed earlier here, it could have become great, but as is it is merely good. Still enjoyable, still good, but just that.[/collapse]

In which I address the fact that Pinsir could use some more comments.
Oh boy, I'm still not entirely sure what to say about Pinsir. What I can say right off the bat is that I wouldn't play as him. That means absolutely nothing when discussing whatever bad points the set may have. Rather, it has a lot more to say about its good points, as Pinsir is the kind of character that I could never master. Due to its plethora of extra inputs and commands, as well as the innumerable possibilities concerning move linkage, Pinsir would just be way too overwhelming for me to play, and that's why it's so good. There's nothing really un-Smash about it; rather, it takes the concept of alternative move commands seen in examples like Dancing Blade, and amps it up to eleven. Pinsir's playstyle is of course high-risk and high-reward, and manages to be demanding without being complex; that's where its beauty lays.
Pinsir's comfort zone is of course always having the option to have something between his pincers, and the use of the Strength boulder to provide him with both a hurtbox and hitbox even when opponents aren't available or the best choice is truly creative and genius, creating a spackle that patches up any possible holes the set could have sported. Using the boulder as a secondary hitbox to augment already powerful attacks (to say nothing of Focus Energy's boosts) is pretty genius and a likable concept. The aptly-named "Pain Train" lives up to its hype. The standards and specials all work well into one another, almost blurring the distinction between the two categories. Despite the unorthodox controls that the moveset features, Pinsir doesn't even seem out of place when one takes into account the fact that Smash Bros, as far as gamepllay is concerned, is a Kirby game at its core, and we've seen similar throw-heavy movesets in that series as well, such as with the Throw ability and Bugzzy.
As is customary of my comments, I don't really have anything bad to say, but Pinsir's real quality will come to light when I see how he matches up against his rival. : )[/collapse]


by FrozenRoy


by Lemonwater


by Lemonwater


by Junahu

It needs no introduction. It needs no reason. It merely is...TAC.
"In the distant future, when all MYM6 sets are considered absolute garbage, only TAC will remain relevant. The master of deception indeed…"
This was once said by the remix maker himself, Junahu, and while it does not hold entirely true today (There is still the ocassional relevant MYM6 set!), it perfectly encapsulates WHY I am so excited to see this set: Will TAC still spark the same debates as before? Has opinion shifted on it...and if so, is it positive and negative? What will people who had never seen the original TAC think? The entire mental exercise is astounding to imagine!
The organization in this set is pretty great: The repeated and mirrored inputs are a necessity for the concept that I can forgive (Kind of like how it is forgivable for a Mario set to have his classic punch-punch-kick, even if it is taken from Mario's Brawl set), but the introduction itself is great, the match-up section is nicely done, and there are bits like TAC stealing the extras.
The concept for TAC is so simple, so elegant: Every move, or in this case ALMOST every move, steals a move from the foe, creating a true mirror mismatch, as TAC must play the thinker's game to build up his moveset, and utilize his unique statistical abilities to his advantage and deal with the foe having any positive mechanics...or punish them for having negative ones! It is all quite a charming little ditt from the past. This is combined with the Side Special, Up Special and Down Special: 3 non-thieving moves to help differentiate TAC. While I enjoy the Side Special (It gives him a legit move to use outside stealing!) and the Up Special is okay, I hate the Down Special: it feels very useless and anti-TAC. TAC having to carefully consider each stole move is part of the feel of the moveset, and it feels VERY easy to just pluck away, to me, the attack feels very anti-TAC, and does not flow. I would have much prefered this to be the original TAC's invisibility: it fit TAC well and really should have been there.
I also highly dislike a change from the original to this: TAC not keeping his stolen attacks across stocks. It simply makes him unplayable, due to the fact he is inevitably going to take damage while stealing the foe's attacks...and while the foe does not have to build up after dying, TAC now does. If TAC dies before the opponent, he is pretty screwed. It is simply a poor change. Some other changes, like the ability to give a decent attack (SSpec), are is the ability to charge each theft, giving TAC some great depth. Still, the DSpec and stock change bug me greatly...
This is minor, but you know what I was was in here? TAC vs. Rool's TAC. We have TAC vs. TAC after all...why not have Rool's TAC steal TAC's place for one? :3 Also, I hate how TAC is effectively banned from competitive play: I don't agree that would happen. D3 makes Brawl characters unplayable and he is allowed. Other forces have entirely centralized metagames before. TAC is fine.
The changes are a bit bothersome in some places, but TAC still holds up in this day and age for me, if not amazingly so. The thought experiment remains provoking: The responses will probably interest me: The set remains solid...if iffy in spots, especially the stock change. I hope to see many responses to this set soon.
And, indeed, I would say...TAC remains relevant.[/collapse]

Well done Junahu. TAC is always an underrated set, one that even I've underrated for some time. There is an incredible amount of depth here and you've barely scratched the surface of the depth he has. In fact, I'd say TAC is an exemplary character in describing how the metagame and positioning works and would be an incredible learning tool for players even to understand how to okay the game at a higher level. Interpereting either set as a mere ditto function or restat of another character is a grave mistake.
Smash, like all fighting games, is a game of POSITIONING. Where you are and where the opponent is is by far the most important element in deciding matches and the most important thing to control. If the opponent has a powerful down aerial to steal then, for example, it becomes a huge challenge as both players attempt to get or prevent the other from stealing / using it, both trying to get above the other. TAC makes the subtle game of control obvious and challenging in every match up. Do you go for the rewarding option or the likely option? How do you tske advantage of the hitstun? I'm honestly disappointed most of the matchups focused more on mechanical. interactions than juicy skirmishes over how the opponent would try to predict and deny TAC. I also debate your claim that TAC is unplayable competitively. He is certainly very good, but as far as Brawl itself goes, or any smash game, no match up clearly benefits him or hurts him. Ice climbers certainly have an advantage but hardly an insurmountable one, even Olimar can have Pikmin Pluck stolen. I suppose some MYM characters yes can't be played with TAC, but if that was the measure for competitiveness then every set would be unplayable on account of being destroyed or destroying some other character.
Having him not use the three specials and lose all moves after stocks was a good move. It sets him apart as a character of his own instead of a ditto machine and keeps the interesting decisions at the forefront, with a few new ones to make as well.
tl;dr TAC is way more brilliant than it first appears, love you Jun.
EDIT: Kirby match-up where? Inhale a stolen inhale, or steal an inhaled steal?[/collapse]

[collapse="Smash Daddy"]TAC is one of the worst sets Junahu has ever made. An accomplishment given how experimental he’s gotten, but this is really offensive on a couple of levels besides being an outright god awful moveset. You missed the point of the original and completely twisted it to serve a new ulterior motive; kissing up to Rool. I would imagine Rool, as gracious as he likes to be these days in his grave, may deny this, but it’s absolutely true. The original TAC was arguably, emphasis on argubaly, a joke set, but it had one big positive that made it a good proponent of other aspects of Make Your Move. That is, the match-ups that Rool painstakingly created for dozens of sets in the same contest. Your disgraceful offering in place of that is Rool’s ancient movesets that have zero significance beyond being made by the same author as the original TAC. I actually do find it insulting as not a huge fan of Rool by any means, that you chose TAC to be his tribute. Not Gengar, Tutankoopa, Skeleton… this highly experimental set. Why?

Oh yeah. You made that obnoxious advertisement for TAC. We can all cringingly remember that one. And now you’re back to prove the timeless nature of this concept.

Well, even in that regard, you screwed up the set. You’ve added angle-able and charge-able qualities to every copy move, plus you've removed three of the specials to be nudged aside by generic recoveries and an abhorrent new down special. This is already worse than the original, years old TAC at this point. You go back on the specials immediately in these comparably scarce match-ups, to be exact Father Time, where you give an exception to a single character. Assuming you didn’t hit a mine in your random collection of one guy’s sets, I don’t see how multiple exceptions for different characters in a Free-For-All or Team setting can ever work. There we have it, everyone, the set solely praised in its time for FFAs now doesn’t work in certain FFAs. To finish it off, you’ve given this great memorial a far blander, less inspired organisation by taking out the old boxed layout once more, and you’ve somehow got a more confusing writing style. It took several Skype’s back when this set first came out to figure out the tiny new details that you hid away in those mysterious little boxes.

Now we’ve gotten that out of the way, I feel I owe the entire concept a run-through because it is truly awful in its basic form alone. Regardless of the character’s mediocre stats, there is no reason for playing this character over your opponent. Unlike in other fighting games where the “copy” fighter chooses another moveset randomly and has it in whole, TAC both has to copy each move individually and goes into each fight with the opponent knowing what they’re up against. In a remotely competitive setting, TAC is Z-tier. Even the weakest characters like Ganondorf have players who know their character better than TAC players, who has to learn every character in existence to begin to be competitive. That’s forgiving the fact he has to re-learn everything once he’s KO’d too. Usually I’d look over a flaw that could be so easily removed, but in a set this barebones; it’s a shocking anti-user friendly addition. No one in their right mind wants to play as a character that has no individuality or playability. Casuals won’t understand it, competitive players would treat it rightly as a joke set. Intermediates would at best play it as a joke against lower-skilled players and that’s all it has to its credit.

Finally, the whole idea is affectingly stupid. Kirby is basically TAC, he steals moves, but in Smash he doesn’t steal every single move as if they’re each abilities. He simply gains a hat to use a foe’s main ability and that would be the most logical set for TAC. He has Kirby’s neutral special, obviously slightly different as he’s not going to wear the hat or suck up enemies, but that be all. TAC does nothing aside from launch a disjointed hand, but there have been far better sets in Make Your Move based off less than that. A generic ninja set or play on the copy ability would be the sane approach. Instead we get a random enemy from Kirby, becoming a create-a-moveset character, who can’t play against himself properly because he has one default KO move. This simple character has gone from a joke set originally in Smeargle, to a half-joke, half-experiment in Rool TAC, to a total joke… and one that captivates actual praise? If you want a good set in this ‘genre’ go read Lizard or VideoMan.EXE off the top of my head. This set is an insult to modern Make Your Move, ignorant of everything going on around it to do with coming to terms with what constitutes an in-smash set and some real breakthroughs in characterization, too arrogant to acknowledge the movesets posted directly around it. On a personal level, it sums up the toxic mindset held by inactive members of the old guard and pats them on the back for their fear of what’s new in Make Your Move. “I haven’t read any new sets, but the old ones were better!” A nostalgic travesty, in more ways than one.[/collapse]


by APC99

[collapse="Daviddreamcatcha"]General Zod

It's been quite a good amount of time since we've had a moveset for a Superman character! 5 contests ago, actually, with MYM9's excellent Bizarro moveset being the last of them. Zod is my favorite Superman villain next to Braniac and the aforementioned Bizarro, so seeing him gain a moveset is a welcome surprise and I commend you on your taste. Zod is a fairly standard set, and doesn't seem to have a steady playstyle in mind - is he a heavy hitter like Bowser or is he on the move constantly like Pit, who you draw comparison to quite a bit? I admit, though, I had a bit of trouble reading this: try and make your colors more appealing to the eye, as it makes the moveset easier to read - you appear to have fixed this with Elec Man, so I won't dwell on that too long.

Besides that, there are really only two things I suggest you improve on. The first is try and work on making your attacks a bit more descriptive - down smash in particular confused me. Is he running back and forth or vibrating to represent superspeed or what? It's a very confusing thing, and describing it better would help readers to visualize it. The other thing is characterization, and also allow me to bring Elec Man back for this: Zod is a great character with a much richer history than the robot master, and I feel like this moveset doesn't encompass him as well as it should've. Given your relative newness to the contest, I can't fault you for that. But at the same time, it seems very confusing when you seem to be going for a Terrence Stamp Zod with the image and the writing style (Planet Houston) but then bring the Man of Steel Zod into it with the final smash and the down throw. Perhaps focusing on only one or on a steadier mix of the two would have been good, rather than having the two Zod portrayals constantly clash into each other - imagine if half of Bowser's moves were based off the Galaxy Bowser's boss battles and the other half were based on antics of the Cartoon King Koopa! Regardless, this is a good first effort and I look forward to seeing you improve.[/collapse]

[collapse="Katapultar"]The only non-Mega Man moveset. Though the presentation is a bit rough, it gets a ton of comparison points for being one of the amusing-to-read sets in the entire contest. This is pretty consistent too, so good job on that. Some of the moves are missing details, but that's a worthy sacrifice for the writing. It is certainly a unique way to start a movesetting career in comparison to the 3 Robot Master, actually being interesting to go back and read. I also like how you've been consistent with providing a backstory on how each character entered brawl. I know this is a poor excuse for a comment, but it was written with the other 3 in mind. You get to know this at least![/collapse]


by APC99

[collapse="Daviddreamcatcha"]Elec Man

More Robot Masters, as has been pointed out above by Kholdstare, are indeed quite welcomed here. Elec Man does seem better written than the good General up there, whether or not this is due to realizing the faults with the first one or the fact that you no longer have a self-imposed Terrence Stamp voice throughout the moveset is a nonfactor when the attacks here are not only better described and are more interesting than Zod's. Right off the bat, he has more of a playstyle than Zod, with a stage control thing going on with the Tesla Coils. There are pretty cool implications there for Elec Man players, imagine Elec Man in the air firing down aerial bolts at them!

One thing I would like to advise against, though, is stuff like the down standard/crouch attack - we know what The Villager's grab special LOOKS and ACTS like because of gameplay footage, and it is thus acceptable for Zod to reference that. However, while we know Megaman has the slide, we don't exactly know how much damage it will deal - leaving the readers a bit confused. Regardless, if my opinion wasn't obvious enough, Elec Man is indeed a superior effort to Zod and is far more pleasant to read through/look at, thanks to the more eye-pleasing colors. You have indeed shown that you can improve, keep that level of improvement up and you could prove to be a top contender in this contest.[/collapse]

[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Evolution of Circuitry

Elec Man is a quick and simple set without much playstyle to it, but it has the underpinnings of a decent set: It just needed to take advantage of things like the shocking and paralysis some more. It also could have used some input moving about: For example, the side aerial works much better as a Special. You could move the current Side Special to Down Special, Down Special to a standard and Side Aerial to Side Special fairly easily. Same with the Back. But the base is fine if it is expanded on some.

Here is an idea of something that might have been cool: What if the Tesla Coil, when charged, would sometimes fire a lightning bolt somewhere? And that Elec Man could absorb that lightning bolt? Maybe he could even have a way to power up his attacks with it, or by draining the Tesla Coil, so he would then try to paralysis the foe when he knows a bolt is coming. That could be a great little way of expanding it. Just an idea I got while reading the set.[/collapse]


King Boo
by Smash Daddy and JOE!

[collapse="TheKalmarKing"]King Boo

That's a pretty nice set we got there. That's a very good trap character, almost entirely relying on his ability to trick the opponent, like in the games, so the set's atmosphere and feeling is very good. It's really a set for King Boo and not just a concept slapped on some convenient character, and it's really cool. Now, King Boo got a truckload of options to mess up his foe, the most obvious one being the Spirit Balls. Combined with his own invisibility, that gives King Boo the means to rightfully mess with his opponent's head. The other specials are great too, even if the recovery part of the Portal is a bit... outlandish. All in all, the moves "flow" quite well together: there isn't a particularily filler-ish move. Also, the pummel is quite original, I had never seen something like that before. While rather impractical and all, it's still a nice call-back to Luigi's Mansion.

I feel it's a pretty solid set you gave us. I personally won't super-vote it, but I'll advertise it for sure, because the atmosphere of the set is really pleasant and it's a trap character done right.[/collapse]

[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Dark Side of the Boo

First thing I wanna point out: The Special Dodge really needs to be some other input. Shield Special, maybe? The fact that ANY dodge causes King Boo to be unable to dodge for 5 seconds or until hit is simply absurd, even with the threshold. Make it a Sield Special that allows him to go Invisible and willingly give it up for that, but be able to dodge like a normal character outside of it.

Up Special is very confusingly written. It took me a long time of reading to understand just how the dimension worked. The potential for respawn is quite annoying King BOo-wise, seeing as he can do things like turn it invisible, but the fact the enemy can just jump int to stop it when King Boo dies balances it a little, I guess...oh yeah, and 2 seconds is WAY too long for this, the same problem I had with Vyse's D-Throw.

How do you short hop aerials underground...? Or are you basically saying to do that to use aerials underground/when rising? (Reading UAir later gave me a better idea about this, so!)

I then stopped typing for a bit while reading and, well...I have a good deal to complain about, really. The Up Special feels extremely strong, very confusingly written and both unfun for the opponent and not all that great playstyle-wise. The Boos don't feel all that special, though they're still fine and maybe even good. The Spike Balls are okay, the way the invisibility works is fine but the way the foe has to try and remove it is simply dreadful. Up to 20% damage just to remove them and if you don't do it within a time limit it's all for naught? Please. D-Tilt, UAir and Up Smash are all fun, at least, and I do absolutely love the "Hold Pummel", although the fact it can be made totally invisible by invisfying the Boos seems potentially bad. The D-Smash's "scare" factor seems, to me, quite silly, so insert standard character complaint there. The blue fire never goes anywhere and King Boo simply does not flow or have his playstyle work all that well with the DoT, especially since it ONLY deals DoT. NAir's falco laser stun with the boo movement and King BOo being able to move screams for horrible bits of combos or short time small locks into an aerial, while the less special moves rarely work together to make a cohesive playstyle with the paranoia, invisibility and such on and so forth parts of the set.

In short, the set simply does not work as a cohesive unit, in addition to me really hating the Up Special. On the plus side, the use of images is excellent here and while the writing is confusing at times, it does nail down the feel of King Boo very well, and has some good concepts, but it rarely properly brings them to the forefront. I'd like to see more of what you guys could make together, at least.[/collapse]

[collapse="BridgesWithTurtles"]Up at 1 AM...the perfect time to read and review King Boo.

66.6% damage armor on the Final Smash. I see what you did there. Oh yeah, and Spirit Bomb.

Anyway, this is a moveset I definitely have mixed feelings about. My first problem is the writing at times, which is oddly descriptive while still doing a poor job at describing some moves; I had to reread several attacks before I understood them. Granted, these are rather complex actions, so it's not that much of a fault. Additionally, the use of the abbreviated "KB" for both "King Boo" and "knockback" makes reading a bit of a sluggish experience. I naturally read the acronym as "knockback", so seeing it used for King Boo himself was a bit confusing. When I finally began to associate KB with the character, you guys started using it to mean knockback. Again, not a major problem. Just a little thing that got in the way of enjoying the bigger picture.

Something else I'm a little iffy on is the Up Special. It's creative, it's fitting, and it's useful, but I can't help but wish King Boo had a more traditional recovery method. The lack of a ROB- or Pit-like free-flight move just seems....missing, like it should be there. That, however, isn't a problem with the moveset itself so much as with the portrayal of the character. The portal is a perfectly fitting and applicable Up Special that has every reason to exist in this moveset.

I must say that the moveset itself is very nice, with a cohesive playstyle that smartly blends trap-using and minion-using tropes to create a genre-busting character. The concept of turning anything and everything invisible is pretty creative, and with all of King Boo's traps and hazards for his enemies to worry about, it pours salt in the wounds to have him turn ledges, platforms, and even shields invisible! I really like the shield bit; it's highly creative and something I never would have thought of. The devious mastermind-ery of King B's playstyle requires cunning and a capacity for some nasty thinking, very befitting of the character, and that makes the player feel as if they are the character. That's a feature that I hold very highly in movesets. The playstyle makes KB Toys feel very fun to play. I don't mind the long preparation times of most of the moves, honestly. In the case of Down Special especially, the reward is substantially worth the charge time. Oh, and excellent use of images by the way.

My biggest complaint with King Boo is that it feels, at times, like it's trying to be a little over-ambitious with its complexity, but it certainly works in this case. It's mainly the Up Special that I have problems with, in addition to the grab and pummel functionality, which I feel serve to be unique without much substance, and don't add much to the playstyle, though they certainly add character.

Much more positive than negative, but as Kalmar said, probably more of an advertisement than a super vote. I hope that's not discouraging, because it's very good and deserves a recognition and read from everyone. I just personally don't consider it a favorite. Hope you two make some more sets together this contest, as your ideas and presentation are great.[/collapse]

[collapse="ForwardArrow"]King Boo
I have to admit this set is a lot wackier than I'd expect from JOE, and when I went to look into the set more I was surprised that was far from entirely due to Smady's decisions. Some of the crazier moves, like DSmash and USpecial, actually came from JOE, and I am one of those people who does not think that's a bad thing. If anything the moves still, barring Up Special, all feel very in smash and in some ways in touch with JOE's style, while still managing to be shockingly creative and actually flowing in some interesting ways with the general invisibility, spiked balls, traps, and DTilt. I'm not of the belief that the portal is really all that bad myself, it's poorly worded but it's perfectly possible to punish King Boo reviving out of it, especially considering the 2nd kill will come much easier. The move's problem is just writing style and number crunching with it's actual time holding the foe captive, and I don't think those are big enough problems to punish the entire set for. Plus it's a fun way of connecting your stage elements together, recovering with some risk-reward attached since foes can soak up damage to kill you, even creating a little bullet hell with different speed ghosts, and it generally works in cool ways with the NSpecial invisibility.

Speaking of that, I really like the ability to turn just about anything you want invisible in this set, reminding me of Spy's invisible spray from back in MYM7 only actually fitting to character and the applications for it are fun, if maybe slightly imbalanced in the case of the portal and the painting, and the surprising amount of mileage you get out of relatively simplistic moves like Nair and Uair with their unorthodox hitboxes. In terms of flow no it's not exactly super dense on interactions, but what is there allows to play in some shockingly unique ways, I think my favorite of which just being the ability to move inside the floor the way he does and use his enjoyably crazy upwards hitboxes like Uair and USmash to pester foes from below. Course there is also the ability to distract foes and make working around your set ups vastly more complicated with one of the best executed pummel KOs I have ever seen, feeling shockingly balanced yet creating a very interesting game between King Boo and the foe as they try to bust the portrait open and regain their stock. It does have flaws though, I won't deny that I've found it very easy to nitpick parts of the set(such as the terrible blue flames mechanics, I don't think damage over time is really a particularly relevant mechanic to this set even with the foe getting trapped in the portal for 2 seconds, which wasn't really a good idea to start with, and then it just makes shields invisible which is a really really painfully tacky status effect if I've ever seen one). The writing also could get awkward at times, referring to things like the diamond on King Boo's head and some obscure graphic on Final Destination to indicate how high a wave is is a very inefficient way of actually indicating size, as almost no-one will actually be able to figure it out without thinking on it for several seconds, making for some difficult reading. It's nothing that drags down this set for me especially much, but I think I really would've liked it more if moves that were used for awkward blue flame effects could've been used to tie together some parts of the set a little nicer, because as is there is flow, but I feel that certain elements could've been connected and make the set feel as a whole more cohesive. It's certainly worthy of some praise though for how many cool concepts it introduces though, and it reminds me a fair bit of Marin, which you said was your favorite set in the contest, didn't you JOE?[/collapse]

[collapse="APC99"]I didn't really understand it too well, and that's saying something since I'm a grade ahead in English! The main problem was the Paranormal Portal, which lost me until you clarified, thanks for that, by the way! The ideas are great, and I'd really enjoy portrificating Luigi, turning Smart Bombs invisible and dropping Spike Balls into opponents. In fact, the idea of the Paranormal Portal kind of inspired me to work on my Chell moveset. Back to the moveset, using Boos and controlling them with taunts is really original and a cool idea. The Paranormal Portal DOES seem like a fair trade, and can be quickly healed, and it also decreases the chances of people constantly using Paranormal Portal to teleport on stage. The Final Smash is cool, the Pink Boo transformation is something that you could stumble upon in battle and suddenly get a great advantage. To summarize, a really cool-sounding moveset with lots of references, but hard to understand at some points and some of the tactics can be unknown to newer players such as the Taunt controls and the Pink Boos.[/collapse]


Blizzard Man
by Getocoolaid

[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Blizzard Man
You know 2 contests ago with Hockey Man and Gray Fullbuster I think MYM kinda got tired of the whole "create an ice rink to slide on" concept. At least with those two sets though, they try to give any depth to their concept with something other than a couple created slopes to roll snowballs down, which frankly isn't a very exciting concept when all it does is make a slightly bigger hitbox and just allow you to spam the screen a bit more. When it's not doing that it's just doing stuff that doesn't even flow in at all like the... well about 75% of this set barely acknowledges the existance of snow other than "this move gets slightly better when you're sliding on it because it's meant to be used while moving". It's not even like the generic attacks are tasteful by generic attack standards, with the Up Tilt being an awkwardly broken anti-air by cancelling every attack in existence and being a lingering trap you can make as much of as you'd ever want, while not even being slow enough to really counterbalance it, or just a generic projectile that gets mirrored onto the Nair. Hell, the set fails at being in smash at times when it just has a random smash dedicated to basically making your snow worse but preserving it's lifespan. Speaking of which, for the life of me I am slightly bothered by how fast this guy moves by sliding along level snow. You need a slope to build momentum, that's how physics work. You don't magically accelerate to become one of the fastest characters in the game on level SNOW. Ice maybe, but not snow which if anything slows you down. I'll admit the set manages some basic form of flow at points with the prospects of rolling snowballs along slopes and a couple attacks that take advantage of them in palatable ways, but they're few and far between in this set.[/collapse]

[collapse="APC99"]I do not like slow characters, I cannot be patient. So that's one drawback so far. There's still the "preferences" I had with Z1GMA's Ring Man missing, such as little representation of source material and the Final Smash doesn't seem too amazing. However, the playstyle is still interesting with stage control. I may have gotten lost and missed it, but maybe Blizzard Man could be slow on land, but uber-fast on snow? The Blizzard Attack and the rolling move are in the moveset too, so I've got nothing too much to complain about, besides the lack of curling puck enemies as projectiles, which would be really cool as they could have the same properties of Blizzard Man as stated above: Slow on land, uber-fast on snow. I have to give you credit on the use of the skis, as you use them very well in the moveset. In summary, good use of Blizzard Man's weapons and stage control, but slowness and low reference to source material can turn away possible players.[/collapse]


Quick Man
by APC99

[collapse="TheKalmarKing"]Quick Man

It's yet again a very simple but coherent set coming from you APC. There's nothing too exciting, the set being very Brawl-ish, There's one or things that set me off, like the QuickBlade and QuickShield which are QuickMan.EXE's moves, but overall it's pretty. There's not much to say, the set being very standard, but I'm waiting for Magnet Man, I hope he'll be at least as good as Elec Man. Continue like that![/collapse]


by Z1GMA


First I'll give you points for staying true to the original material, which I really like for being a Tekken fan myself.

Now it's very correct for a first set. The presentation is very clear and down-to-earth and the occasional pics are nifty. Now for the set in itself, I found interesting to use three different attacks on the Ftilt. I don't think it has ever been done in this manner. The attacks in itself are coherent, and it indeed works well as a Brawl set. Now, while this set is perfectly fine and readable, I must "warn" you: you apparently misunderstood what we call "playstyle", because what you indicate (Grabbing and special throws) is totally obvious when reading the set. A playstyle section should be used, I think, to explain how a match plays with King: how he will approach the opponent, what are his weaknesses, his strong points, how his moves are used in the big picture, etc. You'll convince your readers far more easily if you explain the "Why" and the "How" of each move.

I hope you understood what I tried to explain. It's not a critic, mind you: I've got some harsh beginnings too, and creating a profound playstyle with a distinct personality is really fun. You can always ask for advice about it, we will be more than happy to explain.[/collapse]
[collapse="APC99"]I know nothing about Tekken moves or wrestling moves in general (I've only played it once and lost within a minute), but he seems like a good fighter. I didn't understand the playstyle well, but you seem to have fixed it in Ring Man, so cool. I like the idea of a character who's dependent on grabbing (BESIDES chain-grabbing) so I enjoyed it a lot. Besides, the guy's got a cheetah head! He looks like he could be a villain in Batman or something! The lack of a projectile adds to the macho-wrestler playstyle, so all is forgiven. The Final Smash looks cool, and would be awesome if it was sped up and performed faster. And dear god that sheep stage should be his home stage! In summary, a cool character with a original playstyle, but a lot of it was lost in translation to a person like me who is not knowledgable in the ways of Tekken and professional fighting. Plus dat sheepy music.[/collapse]

by Pac-Man9​
Okay, so, wow. I was actually considering doing a Pac-Man set this contest (as was Smady, I recall), but it looks like you've got us beat. I'm going to try and separate my bias from my analysis here, as I'm a Pac-Man fan myself but have some critiques to make.​
Without being too extensive, the set has a few problems. More attention to formatting would be appreciated, with the pictures being placed on different lines than the text. On that same note, the moveset has trouble with flow; why is the Final Smash in between smashes and standards? Moves are descriptive enough to clearly illustrate their appearances (in most cases), but little else is mentioned about attack properties. For example:​
Z- air - pac man uses his grapple from the old pac-in-time game. Only the tip does damage (5%)​
This doesn't really tell us anything about the move. For one thing, those who haven't played the source game won't know what his grapple looks like. Another problem is that it lacks any hard information: How strong is it and what is its knockback? How long are the frames active? What's the start-up and cooldown like? Questions like that go unanswered, which makes it more difficult to fully envision the character and how he plays.​
Also, the neutral special seems a little underpowered due to the copy being destroyed in one hit while demanding a 5-second wait for a retry. The sort of "double-teaming" part of the moveset could be an interesting basis for a developed playstyle if the move's use weren't so restricted.​
As a Pac-Man fan, I appreciate the fan-service and respect to the series, drawing from a wide variety of games. However, as a moveset maker, it's a bit underwhelming. None of this meshes into a coherent playstyle, making Pac-Man come off as a rather generic fighter. The moves themselves could possibly work into a playstyle, but not enough information is given about them for the reader to tell. I hope I'm clearly articulating what I'm trying to say here (maybe someone else could say it better?). Still, there's room for improvement. I'd like to see you attempt another moveset or a reworking of this one.[/collapse]​
[collapse="APC99"]This surprised me. I used to make "basic" movesets with my friends, and basically our Special Attacks and Final Smash were exactly the same for Pac-Man. Except for Double Trouble. Not only is that the strangest idea for Pac-Man, it seems really easy to spam. I have to give you credit though for thinking outside of the box and not giving Pac-Man his chomp for his neutral special. The use of the Galaga ship, although clever, seemed out of place to me, as does the Grappling Hook, Skate Slice and the presentation of the Pac-Dot Chain. I'd actually say it would be cooler for Pac-Man to just chomp Pac-Dots normally without a ghost in his 3D form, but apparently I'm one of the only people who likes his 3D appearance. In summary, good moveset with some unexpected turns, for better or for worse.[/collapse]​
by FalKoopa
[collapse="APC99"]Tingle's just a cool and weird character. To me's he's the Waluigi of the Zelda reps: A possible spin-off rep to the series. And they're both portrayed as creepy people on the Internet. Anyway, the moveset's cool. It seems to be missing things like Final Smash and the other additions like Taunts and such, but that's perfectly fine. His moveset looks quirky yet effective, making him a great character just to float around in air and spam other players until they're annoyed and high-damage, then KO them with a Force Gem, Firework or Rupee. In that case, some may say he's got a similar playstyle to Pit :troll:. All jokes aside, a really cool moveset, although I seem to notice a lack of maps. I'm not sure how they could fit in, but I would be really impressed if you found a way to introduce them somehow if you ever update it. I noticed a lot of stuff that just seemed to be out-of-place, like the U-Smash and U-Throw. They didn't seem right for Tingle. To summarize, great moveset, some things missing, but classic playstyle and strangely fitting moves, with the exception of a few.[/collapse]
Ring Man by Z1GMA
[collapse="Katapultar"]This just might be the shortest set in the contest :p. Short is certainly not a bad thing, especially with a Robot Master, though it could use just a bit more detail on the moves (they do have just enough to understand them from a basic level), like knockback direction when necessary but most importantly what kind of uses the move has in the overall playstyle - you'll see on Smash Wiki and guides for existing characters that most of their moves have surprising uses to them and that they tend to play in a certain way. This'd make your sets more interesting to read, because while King had some good inspiration behind him and Youtube videos showcasing his moves for reference, Ring Man doesn't feel very inspired (which I don't blame you for, since Robot Masters don't have a lot to draw from, but that doesn't mean he -can't- be interesting). You might even want to read some sets in this contest (or the previous ones) for an idea of what you can do if you put your mind to it, especially the Robot Master sets from the previous contests of which were more or less in the same boat as you.
For the actual set itself, the Neutral Special boomering and Down Special tactical ring are interesting on their own, and could be a fair bit better if there were more ways for these to support/be supported by the rest of the set; how about more ways to manipulate the tactical ring or even knock around your rings with your basic moves for interesting interactions? Rings have plenty of potential despite being simplistic objects, like being able to trap people or whatnot. Also, from an aesthetic point of view, Ring Man seems to have some magic ring powers as based on his entrance animation, him summoning rings out of nowhere and his genie-like appearance - moves where he summons hula-hoops out of nowhere like Wii Fit Trainer kind of hurt the image I have for him as a fighter, especially that Final Smash. That might be good to remember for the future.

So, overall, I'd say it's certainly not as good as King, but you can at least use it as a stepping stone for the future in regards to what you might be critiqued about. I can at least guess you like the Mega Man series from your avatar though, so keep at it![/collapse]
[collapse="APC99"]Another Robot Master moveset! Cool! Anyway, I noticed that Ring Man's got a great playstyle which kinda reminds me of Olimar and the Pikmin (I don't know how, it just does) but doesn't really channel the Mega Man part of him. This may just be preference talking, which I really hope it's not, but I think that besides the Ring Boomerang, there's really not much that references his history in Mega Man. I'm really sorry if I sound like "if I did it", but I feel you could've done something with stage obstacles (those coiled-looking platforms, UGH!), maybe those hippos or the exploding ring mini-bosses, even if it wasn't using them literally, but maybe using the rings to make the hippo's platform, or a move exploding rings around him. Heck, maybe even throw in some NetNavi moves if you want to! That's just suggestions from me, but I actually see only one problem in my eyes: The final smash. It just looks underwhelming to me. Ring Man just hula-hooping around just kinda seems like if Link had his boomerang grow in his Final Smash, or Luigi ate a Super Mushroom and used the Green Missile. But in all seriousness, a short and sweet moveset with a great playstyle, but not enough reference to the source material and a lackluster Final Smash.[/collapse]
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Ring Around the Moveset
This is ZIGMA's Ring Man, by the way.

My first suggestion would be to add a little more detail: Even just going into the animations some makes movesets feel more lively and allows people to better get into the moveset by visualizing how it'd look. For example, what do Ring Chain's throws look like at all? Does he spin them, fling them, bring them to him so he can throw them? Adding descriptions that better bring these moves to life helps enrich the reading experience and create a better moveset.

Secondly, maybe add in some more zest to the moves, a little differentiation. The Side Special is the one I think of this the most: Why not make it differ from just his grabs and throws? It is a special grab, a Command Grab, so you could spice it up. You could use the fact you just grabbed with a chain to spice things up: Maybe tether them to something with the chain? Wrap it around them to restrict movement? That sort of thing. Do little things like that and the mvoeset gets deeper playstyle and becomes more fun to read, write and play.

One thing that was good about this is that, if expanded, the Neutral Special/Down Special/Up Special would make a fun playstyle. Drop rings around, maybe even put the foe in one, then use Up Special to zip right to the foe, and use the delay of your Neutral Special projectile to control the's got potential.[/collapse]

Magnet Man by APC99
Guts Man by Conren
[collapse="APC99"]Darn, I wanted to do all of the original Robot Masters :) Anyway, Guts Man looks pretty good. My only real problem is the specials besides Super Arm. Pickaxe seems out of place to me, even if Guts Man is the work robot. Dig could've worked like it did in Powered Up, where he rises underneath with a block, and Guts Stomp seemed to be a bit too much like King Dedede's. Although I don't like the idea of Guts Man being a semi-clone, I think throwing Mets could've worked as well. Down Smash could have been a Guts Block falling into his arms like in his boss fight, but I really like the Final Smash. To summarize, cool playstyle and Final Smash, but some lackluster moves. That's all I got for this one.[/collapse]
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]MYM Has Guts (Man)
The biggest issue with Guts Man has to be the numbers, and this isn't just number crunching a few moves here: Almost every move past the Specials has far too good of KO power. Guts Man runs into the problem that either all these attacks have to be horribly laggy, in which case Guts Man is underpowered and unfun to play because he has very few attacks that are realistically usable and most of them are redundant, or the attacks have similiar lag to normal attacks, in which case Guts Man has moves with huge KO power without the lag or any drawbacks associated with it. It is hard to say which it is, since none of the attacks have any lag times on it.

The Super Arm actually makes an okay base, but there just isn't much to build off of it, especially with such underdetailed attacks, and Guts Man doesn't seem to have any rhyme or reason to his attacks other than "Ko quickly", which isn't really a flow of a playstyle. A bit dissapointing of a moveset.[/collapse]
Dive Man by Z1GMA
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Diving Into a Moveset

As a general rule, Playstyle sections work best when they are at the end of a moveset, due to the fact that before reading the moveset a person has no idea what you are talking about move-wise.

You don't need to start a new line for each sentence, even using center: Just using it in one paragraph is a bit cleaner to read. I think Dive Man could end up a lot better, but just like Ring Man, it has good underlying concepts: For example, Submerge could be really cool, but as-is it kind of doesn't do much for an entire alternate mode of transportation and such. I think the playstyle could be more sharply defined: Some more added on to the more basic attacks would help prop the moveset up. I also feel that the Down Tilt should be moved to a Smash or Special input. There's some other awkward moves too, like DAir...but the biggest thing is just the "new line for every sentence" makes this set feel twice as long as it actually is.[/collapse]

[collapse="APC99"]Talk about an improvement! Ring Man to me was OK, but Dive Man is spectacular! I see you took my advice with the stage hazards, and you've made them essential and powerful for Dive Man, making him a really cool character! The F-Tilt honestly doesn't make too much sense to me, as I can't see him using his propeller foot to push opponents forward. The Metal Urchins are really unique, as is Moby the Final Smash Whale. However, even though you followed everyone's advice, he seems a bit... overpowered. I mean, you can submerge yourself to dodge almost every Final Smash (except Olimar's), drop dangerous spike balls and go right past them and then drop invincible enemies into the playing field! To summarize, a great improvement over Ring Man with cool moves and great references, but a bit overpowered and some strange uses of the Propellers.[/collapse]
Ring Man by Koppakirby
[collapse="APC99"]I consider this an exact opposite to Z1GMA's Ring Man. You do reference the source material often, but your moves don't really work too well. Trapeze works enough that it could be a great stage control, but it could be harder to recover if they don't spawn in air. The hippo Final Smash seems like an insta-kill, which is something I don't think really works (besides Marth's), but I enjoy his aerial game. To summarize, good aerial game and reference to the source material, but broken Final Smash and some lackluster moves.[/collapse]
Heracross by TewnLeenk
[collapse="n88_2004"]There's no official system in place for providing moveset feedback. Anyone and everyone is encouraged to read other people's movesets and chime in. That said, since I've got a free moment and haven't quite collapsed at my keyboard [don't be surprised if nothing from here on out is particularly coherent or logical, because I'm pretty close], let's talk Heracross.
Toxic, though a nifty little move [especially mechanically interesting in the context of a largely physical fighter like Heracross] is not a great choice to start off the set. I'm going to quote something written quite some time ago that still very much applies today.

MarthTrinity said:
Pokemon Syndrome: We define Pokemon Syndrome as giving a Pokemon moves that, while they may fit the playstyle perfectly, do not fit the Pokemon’s “character.” And yes, I hear you saying already that Pokemon are mindless beasts and have no character…but they do have distinct traits and abilities!

One of the biggest examples of Pokemon Syndrome could be seen back in the day with SkylerOcon’s Metagross moveset where he gave the Psychic/Steel type Rain Dance. Now…when one thinks Metagross, do they think summoning rain? Not really. Or not at all rather. When one thinks Metagross, they think a giant psychic tank made of steel that uses its brute force in addition to its psychic abilities to fight.​
A good moveset for any character should be a moveset that really only makes sense for that character; you should always be trying to convey what sets your character apart. Despite Toxic's mechanical functionality, I have some reservations about whether it really expresses what makes Heracross unique. Having a move that seems contrary to Heracross's nature so early in the set and on a Special is pretty jarring. It starts things off on the wrong foot, which is especially unfortunate since you demonstrate a pretty solid grasp on the sorts of things Heracross should and should not be doing throughout the rest of the set.

I'm going to keep harping on your Specials for a minute [I know, I don't like it either]. What you've got here is mostly slightly retooled Special attacks already present in Brawl. This moveset is really your chance to make Heracross shine. He should feel unique, he should feel distinctly Heracross-y. Don't be afriad to get creative, especially in the Special attacks; these are the cornerstones of the moveset. I'm not saying that your approach is bad, but I would like to caution you against feeling restricted to using attacks that are already in Brawl. MYM has seen some pretty off-the-wall stuff over the years, and nobody will bat an eye if you decide to mix it up a little.

But don't walk away from this comment thinking you did everything wrong, because that's certainly not the case. You've got a nice, readable organization [you have no idea how few people get that right on their first try], and you've showed off a pretty clear knowledge of exactly what goes into a moveset. My advice for you is to try to have a little more fun with your character. Get creative [I know you can. That Toxic move, for all my complaints, is still a pretty darn fun move] and keep on eye on that characterization, and you'll be doing all kinds of awesome. Hopefully you stick around and write something else for us.[/collapse]

[collapse="BridgesWithTurtles"]Having just wrapped up another session of beetle farming in Animal Crossing, I feel inspired and find it fitting to pull an America's Got Talent and give my opinion on Heracross despite having no qualifications to judge quality myself.

I mostly just want to expand on what Nate said since he's pretty much on the mark on what this set needs. What Heracross has is solid presentation (really, thank you for being so organized) and an idea of how moves in Smash Bros. actually work, which may not seem like much, but is vitally important and not a universal talent among moveset makers. Heracross also has an actual playstyle; he's a speedy berserker with a light weight that makes him both rewarding and risky to play aggressively. What Heracross lacks, however, is an identity. What Heracross does in this set is all what he could do, but without necessarily making use of what makes Heracross unique. The moves are only what he can do, not what onlyhe can do. I'll be the first to say I don't really mind seeing movesets that aren't super-crazy and are more Sakurai-esque. That being said, it'd definitely make Heracross stand out more if he were more crazy and unique. There's tons you can do with the character; Pokémon are great moveset subjects because they have established biologies and behaviors that provide basis for a myriad of unique potential, while still being uncharacterized enough for the moveset maker to get creative and insert their own little personalities and ideas.

Heracross' other problem, I think, is just generally having moves that don't have enough of a relationship. For example, Toxic. Toxic is an interesting idea. While the point about the Pokémon Syndrome is valid, it's still pretty interesting to have a passively-damaging move on such an otherwise rough n' tough physical fighter. But the set doesn't play off of Toxic; once it's mentioned, it's forgotten about. No mention is made of how Heracross can use other moves or strategies to interact with Toxic. If Toxic formed more of a basis for Heracross' playstyle, it might not make the Pokémon feel more in-character, but it'd make him more interesting and unique, with a playstyle all its own, rather than a general heavy-hitter.

Sorry if I made that sound condescending; I didn't intend for that at all. What I'm saying is, it's a good showing, and I'd like to see more, but it's not a million dollar act.[/collapse]

[collapse="APC99"]Warning: Not much knowledge about Pokemon. The specials are cool (especially Toxic) but all the moves are very basic. This is expected for a first moveset. The Final Smash is another controllable one, and those are always good (except Volt Tackle, can never get it right), but my only problem is, again, the moves seem a bit too "beginner's character" for me. To summarize, cool specials and a good Final Smash, but basic moves and no identifiable playstyle. Reminds me of my Quick Man a lot.[/collapse]
I enjoyed the physicality of this moveset. It's all very much focused on figuratively locking horns with your foe, getting in their face and never backing down. The moves are all relatively simple, but they get their point across, and there's no fluff in the writing either. It's nicely concise.
But I have to repeat n88's criticism, that Heracross is not a poisonous insect, and should not be using Toxic. Heracross has no other Poison moves (even via TM). And Toxic is something EVERYTHING can learn. Heracross is no more poisonous than Pikachu, or Squirtle. Basically, my issue is that Toxic isn't a very Heracross like move, and that damages the way the moveset is characterised. It's especially surprising, given that the rest of his moves are pitch perfect for the fighting beetle.
Personally, I would have anchored the moveset around moves like Feint, or Endure, to complement his Counter attack. I would also try to think of a way to get the player to focus on Heracross' horn as a tool for spacing, prodding, and eventually KOing. Perhaps something as simple as Heracross having a shorter 'clank' animation than other characters (when two similarly powerful attacks collide, both players suffer a short delay from the clash) so that he can cancel out a foe's quicker attacks and then proceed to punish them
I'm basically rambling ideas at this point. But that's an integral part of making movesets; finding/exploring ideas that complement the overall design and character of what you're trying to make[/collapse]

Vaneloppe von Schweetz by Keybladeguy
[collapse="Getocoolaid"]VanellopeShe was my favorite character in the movie, bar none. So funny.

The Specials are actually pretty cool, I like the various uses of glitching, specifically the neutral special is really cool, and sets her up as a potentially dangerous foe if one isn't careful around her. I especially like the mid-move transport part of it, she could do serious damage with smashes using it! The only thing I can say is that the neutral special is so good at recovering her that it kinda defeats the purpose of the up special, ya feel? The side special is pretty cool too, even if it's Wario's Bike reskinned, though I like the glitch interaction. Down special is fine, and could be great at mind games with the opponent, though the timing is waaaaaay too long. For reference, a Falcon Punch lasts for under a second, and it only takes about 1 second to fully charge smashes.

The rest of the moveset is a lot of punches and kicks, which is fine: it's a combo/mindgaming moveset, and those are usually filled with this kind of thing. I'd advise you to spend a bit more time with the moveset, and give as much detail as possible for the moves. You did good with providing damage, but we have no idea how long these moves last, how far they reach, or how much knockback they do and in what direction they do it in! The most rewarding part of set making, for me at least, is making moves that can flow into other moves naturally, Thinking of ways to make each move flow into the other is rewarding!

As a side note, I'd take a look at other sets around to get an idea of how to format movesets. It's not required, but reading a large white block of text is very unappealing for the eyes. I'd recommend something similar to the recent Heracross moveset for how to do simple formatting!

So yeah, overall, it's a simple set, but there are lots of cool ideas in the specials, and there is definitely potential. If you want to be "serious" (or at least as serious as you can get with this kind of thing) I'd recommend checking out . Under the "Movesets" tab you can click on any contest and read any moveset from MYMs past! I'd say anything from MYM 4 and above should give you a good read and show you what i mean by having your moves "flow". The moe they flow, the stronger the playstyle will be![/collapse]
[collapse="APC99"]Love Wreck-it-Ralph, and I'm actually working on a Fix-It-Felix Jr. moveset along the line. About the moveset, the glitching is a cool playstyle gimmick, and it really adds a lot to her character. The Up B seems kind of useless, since her Glitch is a great recovery, so I recommend sometime in the future trying to find a replacement of some sort, maybe even something that isn't a recovery like Jigglypuff. There's only two main problems to me: The clone moves and the Final Smash. Vanellope is an original character, but a lot of her moves imitate other video game characters, like Mario, Luigi, Ness, Shantae, Rayman and Mega Man. I'd really appreciate it if her attacks had a bit more originality to them, but ideas slip the mind right now. As for the Final Smash, I think that using Wreck-It-Ralph isn't truly a Final Smash Vanellope needs. Wreck-It-Ralph has his own moves, ideas and attacks that he could bring as an individual fighter, and it kind of locks him downwards to be his own character if he's only a Final Smash. Vanellope can use her glitching to re-create the Diet Cola Mountain and drop some Mentos in it, like a Ice Climber/ Samus combo. To summarize, a cool playstyle and useful moves, but some clone moves, a recovery move rendered useless by other moves and a Final Smash that has so much potential as a completely different character,[/collapse]

I'm a huge fan of Wreck-It Ralph just like you, so I'm very pleased to see a Vanellope set here. Your glitching mechanic seduced me instantly, because it's ideal to create very "flowing" combos. The set isn't totally incredible but this little mechanic is just neat. It could have been expanded though, there could have been more uses to it than just following p some moves to create combos. The other specials are kinda unnecessary though: the kart doesn't fit with the rest of the set, the Up B is obsolete compared to Vanellope's other recovery options and the Down B... okay the Down B actually serves a purpose; protecting Vanellope from bigger opponents. Not bad. I won't comment the FS, other people already expressed my thoughts on that. I'd like to see more of your work though![/collapse]
by Davidreamcatcha
[collapse="Katapultar"]Just when I thought you had given up, you actually make a nice comeback, as Eggman is both a surprisingly simple and decent set for a high-potential character, if at best. It also reads surprisingly well, but that might just be me, though I can say with utmost certainty that the presentation is refreshing. The Specials help sell the set for me a little, but I also like the comical nature behind kicking around your robots with your basic moves, which I sort of wish had a bit more audio-oomph to it like Eggman yelling angrily every 3 or so times he uses a melee attack. I actually like the otherwise cliched drag down U-air for this reason, though having Super Amour on this and the D-air reeks of some tackiness where the latter is reminiscent to something you've used in your previous sets.
If you were aiming for something really simple that's a bit of fun and easy to cook up, you certainly succeeded in that department; I already, to a degree, like this set similarly to how I like Ho-oh...
If you were aiming for more, however, I'd say that some of the moves could have a fair bit more meat to them (mainly the Specials, except the more-or-less fantastic Up Special), though it wouldn't be right to say that a high-potential character's moves should all be as complicated as possible as I doubt that's what you were aiming for. What I will say however, is that some identifiable flow could do the set wonders; the Up Special is an eggcellent base for Eggman and I get it works well with his campy game since a good deal of his moves home in on foes like his Grab and Side Spec minions, along with his U-Smash being a campy move, also have some moves that encourage Eggman to be close to his opponent, 2 Specials to be precise: Time Eater seems out-of-place from almost every possible angle what with being taken from a random recent Sonic game, namely in conflicting with Eggman's machine theme to him not really being geared up to work with time despite the minor minion interaction. Side Special also seems to do nothing when you could just make Eggman's minions more intelligent. With all the mass of minions Eggman has throughout all the games he's appeared in, I would be perfectly fine with him pulling a Wily and having those two inputs replaced with the summoning of new robots; from what I remember in Sonic Heroes, there's quite a variety of robots you have to go up against, like that giant one that uses a hammer like the eagle king. Also, get ready for this: it's rare to see a throw-less grabgame these days (this one might even be the first of this contest, if memory serves me right), but that doesn't mean we'd love to see some throws, which could be used to command your robots and really a claw has soooooooooooooooooo much potential it'd be a crime not not establish it further. Robots being summoned behind enemies is also a bit conflicting with how you can kick them around since you have to get past enemies in order to do that and that's pretty awkward.
Overall, I like Eggman enough that if he was posted in MYM13, he'd be my favorite of yours. I enjoyed the simplicity while still paying some attention to other details like characterization, presentation ideas and what not, even though there's a whole lot more to Eggman and this was only scratching the surface. Hopefully you come back to us with a bit more of this, because it was a fun ride.[/collapse]
I only skimmed over Robotnik; I'm strongly concerned that the Neutral Special is just plain overpowered, on the level of nearly being a win button. Forcing the opponent to relive four seconds without being able to change their behavior is incredibly punishing, as it should be trivial for a player paying attention to avoid any attacks they performed and rack up absurd damage. It's also plain unfun to be hit by, as it takes control away from the opponent for four seconds, forcing them to sit back and watch. I think time controlling projectiles and minions has more potential for interesting possibilities while staying balanced, and I think the move could have been a lot better if it did not directly affect players and focused on that aspect.

I also wanted to mention that I scrolled through and thought Vanellope was actually a pretty cool set with some very interesting ideas. Glitching and teleporting through fighting has a lot of potential, and it hints at greatness a lot. I was really disappointed that the set was so brief and didnt give me as many details as I would have liked. I'd love to see this set more fleshed out.[/collapse]
I'd like to talk about Robotnik. First, does the moves actually change from the original? Because I can't see any difference. Also, the set is at least okay, but it could have been improved by leaps and bounds with a little more thought. In the end, it's very shallow, there's nothing deep in that. Where I usually have to really think about the set to understand all of it's little interactions, here it's simple: summon a minion and KICK IT until you've won. That's exaggerated of course, but the set had potential... I feel it's kind of the beta version of the set, but there won't ever be any finished version.[/collapse]
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Robert Nick

The biggest problem with this set is two moves: Neutral Special and the grab. The Neutral Special is horribly broken and also HORRIBLY unfun, as the opponent can essentially put down their controller for 4 seconds, which is an INCREDIBLY long time (About 3.5 Warlock Punch start-ups), and go...I dunno...drink a little while waiting for control to come back to them. And like DM said, it is tribial for Robotnik to just remember what the foe did and rack up absurd damage. It'd be much better if it just put the foe where they were 4 seconds ago and then let them do whatever they want at that point, which offers interesting playstyle option. The grab game just gets rid of Robotnik having 4 inputs and a normal grab game for what really amounts to nothing added and does not feel like a good move due to not feeling particularly playstyle or character relevent (It'd feel better if he shot out the robot arm from him if anything like a normal tether grab). The U-Smash also feels a bit odd, but that might be just because I find the Egg Carrier flying around to be a, especially since Robotnik doesn't use it more.

Aside from that, though, it feels like a fun, if basic minion set. The Egg Pawns are actually pretty interesting in how they work and Crabmeat is a cool minion to interact with and kicking around minions is pretty good, but there doesn't really feel like there is much of a playstyle going on with his actual moves, and I don't mean that in the sense of "Needs more interactions" or whatnot, but his moves don't feel like they have any kind of common goal (IE from Brawl: Sonic's moves are built for hit-and-run). He also could use less physical attacks and some more tech, I feel: Cut out some of the physical, combine the command moves into one, then you can add in...say...a bit more projectiles or a trap? Would work well into the base of a playstyle. Combined with the fact there isn't much else that entices me, the set sort of falls flat (or flab, as the case may be) on it's face aside from the minions.[/collapse]
[collapse="ForwardArrow"]RobotnikNo I'm not disgusted with this set's mere existence nor do I think it's anywhere near the worst thing posted this contest. The minion's self destructing properties at least give them a little more value as a threat and for what it's worth, some of the interactions on Down Smash were actually pretty cool, and there's at least an attempt at decent interactions in the FSmash just allowing you to detonate your minions in a much cleaner fashion. Sure it's high points aren't exactly innovative in the minion genre, but they serve their purpose and generally showcase the wacky technology the character is known for.

Unfortunately where the set falls apart is when it steps into using Robotnik's melee attacks, especially as awkward minion commands. Frankly, if I want to attack I don't want it to reposition my minion after having my set up the way I want it just to save myself in melee combat. It makes Robotnik annoying to use in melee combat... which is awkward when you decide to give him so many straight melee moves with the properties of kicking the crab minion stitched on which. I mean why is Robotnik fighting with punches and kicks anyway. Sure it's Smash Bros and most people do that but this is literally a fat man who is always hiding behind his tech and is helpless without it, and when the cool parts of his gameplay come from

I think everyone's mentioned the Neutral Special but the logic that Junahu used to justify it is really wonky. Having one move define how everyone plays against you and forcing them to play an absurdly cautious game for fear of a 4 second stun is just awful and makes the game painful for the opponent. Sure an opponent could hypothetically play around it but what it does to severely limit their options isn't interesting even if it creates a different metagame. The metagame it's creating is just inferior in that it's less fun for both players and makes actually pulling off some cool stunt with Robotnik's minions an invalid strategy as opposed to simply trying to snare them in your portal from hell. Time mechanics like say, N. Tropy's projectile saves or Kang's time travel are something a foe could more reasonably react too and actually expand his game rather than compressing it into a game of "land the stun move". It's just kind of messed up to throw all time mechanics under the rug as inferior to some horrendously overpowered stun, and in practice I really doubt your logic would ever be justified. 3 hours admittedly makes the grab game a bit more understandable but viewed objectively no throws is a pretty big deducting factor from a set, especially when said grab is literally just a long range stun and nothing else.

To clarify this set's existence definitely isn't a bad thing as there are some occasional cool ideas in here and a lot can be learned from it's mistakes, nor is it especially awful. The execution is just very poor in a lot of places.[/collapse]

by BridgesWithTurtles
I'm sincerely impressed by this moveset, in just about every way. Which unfortunately means I'm at a slight loss for words. Praise is hard to make, after all, and criticism is cheap.
The moveset plays itself very easily in layers, allowing new players to understand the basics, without needing too delve too deep in its specifics. Further complexities can be explored at a natural, organic pace. There's no feeling that I have to learn everything about Wiscash in order to play him at all. And I find that pretty awesome.

The playstyle, of slowing things down and then abusing the techs the foe makes to try and speed back up, is an incredible snug fit for Wiscash, and you give everything he does a pleasing weight and presence.
The writing has a suitably slow timbre, matching the pace that Wiscash lives and fights. I really hope you put an equal amount of thought into the writing and presentation of your next moveset. For example, I'd love to see you take on a fast flighty character with a quick, airy writing style.
My one, and pretty much only, concern is how the mud, water and muddy water all operate in different ways. Mud and Water are logical enough (even though Brawl does have stages with shallow water already), but muddy water lacking the properties of either one almost strikes me as a contradiction that players will not be quick to forgive.
Though, I do understand WHY you made such a mutual distinction between mud, water and muddy water. It forces Wiscash to be more anal about its placement, and thus have more agency to take care of the swamp he is making (i.e. to make the player WANT to maintain it, rather than just spewing mud and water whenever he has the chance)
It's a little odd how one of the few pictures you use in the moveset, is dedicated to the jab attack. Granted, it does a great job of signifying where the regular attacks start, which is a trick you employ to mark the playstyle too. But the jab is not a move that strikes me as needing or warranting a visual reference.[/collapse]

I don't even know where to begin. :p You corrected the majority of the preview version's flaws, such as Pokémon Syndrome, and you made the Dtilt far better than before. I'm not a big fan of the dash attack though, I preferred the old one because of the Rest cancel, but all-in-all, this new dash attack is fine. Your interactions with mud, muddy water and water are all neat and interesting. The playstyle is quite interesting too: it clearly aims to slow and confuse the opponent to land an Earthquake, and it isn't achieved only thanks to the specials. The tilts are a very neat way of modifying your setup, cleaning the stage of any liquid of moving them around. There's a true interaction between the normals and the specials. Overall, this is a good set coming from you, like always!

(You're right Junahu, it's damn harder to praise a set than to criticize it...)[/collapse]

I'm pleasantly surprised by how much of our criticism you took to heart when this set was previewed, in pretty much all the questionable attacks being changed into improved versions. Some of the new versions are still not perfect, I think the move which removes substances from the field is okay because there are some moves that sets up for nicely, but there are times when you definitely would not want to remove the substances to use that attack and I feel that the only benefit being the removal of the substance is a bit questionable. Maybe you could make it so the substance is a hitbox while it's being removed? Regardless, that's just me nitpicking one change, as the set's overall playstyle is very palatable. Mess with foes using the three different types of substance Whiscash makes his home in, carefully space water and mud and muddy water to get the optimum use out of all 3, play off the foe's mildly crippled state in the substances to land earthquake.

The set rarely takes advantage of these substances in too drastic of ways, which is probably a good thing considering it makes landing earthquake more strategic, and the effects can still be interesting. I particularly like the way Surf works in the context of the rest of the moveset and being able to soak foes in muddy water at the end of the attack, and the entirety of the grab game in all the ways it plays off the substances in what comes out as one of the deeper and more reactive grab games I have seen. I sometimes feel the small nature of the effects makes the set feel a bit ineffectual, but it feels fine on a set for a somewhat dopey pokemon like Whiscash. That's not to say there isn't some straight up filler at points, and I wish that the set did a bit less repositioning and maybe tried something else in moves outside the grab game. All that aside, I'd say this is actually your strongest set so far. Good work Turtles![/collapse]

by Staffofsmashing

ALttP Hyrule Soldier
by StaffofSmashing
As a long-standing Zelda fan, I'd say your Soldier moveset nails the enemy pretty well. While the sentences are short, you give sufficient detail for me to understand the moves fully. Your writing style is factual and no nonsense, I appreciate it. It doesn't do anything fancy or complicated, there are no frills. This is definitely a moveset for your standard soldier enemy. There are some suggestions I would make to improve the moveset. Add a better picture (I found this one on the Zelda wiki page for the Soldier enemy, but there are others to choose from, both art and sprites: Second, add color to the moveset, a solid white text doesn't draw the reader in. Center the image of the character, make the name of him and the move names larger and bold to distinguish them from the rest of the moves. The only moves themselves I disagree with is the grab - the Ball and Chain is a blunt weapon, not a grabbing one like the hookshot, so it does not belong on a grab at all. Final Smash as the Ball and Chain Soldier (which is a miniboss by the way, not a peon soldier enemy) would be really great instead of on the grab (and up smash). Also give him taunts, and win poses! I'd like to see more extras in movesets. Finally, if you want to flesh out the character, add more descriptive language, such as the sound of each move and more personality to the animation descriptions; I can distinctly remember the charge attack's patter of feet and dust clouds while holding out the sword, then charging forward valiantly to thrust into the green clad hero. Details like this give the generic enemy more flavor and personality in the world of Smash. I look forward to more movesets from you, you've got the basics down well.[/collapse]

by TheKalmarKing

Ares was a set I rather enjoyed reading on the Whiteboard, even though I never got around to giving it feedback. One auxiliary thing I enjoy in particular is that the set is short (impressive for a moveset with move variations) and easy to read, with simple yet colorful language that help the character come off as pretty vivid. Playstyle-wise, Ares is a simple heavyweight brute, but his teleporting and invisibility, along with his wide range of projectile options, put a mobile twist on the character while avoiding the "combo heavyweight" problem a lot of "differentiated" heavies have. You even mention that Ares should feel free to retreat in battle, which is great as it avoids the typical "rush-down, in your face" style of other characters like him. I also like that his Uair doesn't knock foes upward, and you pointed out that scoring a kill off of Uthrow can be difficult, which constructs a clear method for Ares to approach kills, differentiating him from someone like Ike, who kills rather easily off the top. Ares has his clear weaknesses: he's still slow and big, and his attacks aren't extraordinarily fast. He actually reminds me a bit of Mami, due to the floating projectiles which he can activate at any time or range. His floating/static projectiles are technically more varied in application than Mami's, though to be fair, I don't think this set works off of its set-ups quite as fluidly.

Moves I particularly like are Nair and its interaction with the knives, the Fair which functions as a spike whether you have the sword or not (though the lack of any real reason to use the unarmed version is a bit disappointing), and the creative triad of projectile specials. The way the Fthrow interacts with a wall of daggers is creative and cool; to that end, I'm a little disappointed his other throws don't interact with projectile set-ups nearly as directly.

There were some parts that were left a bit vague or unclear, however. Does the sword function as a held item? Can Ares pick up another item while holding the sword? Can he grab while holding it? The Forward Throw suggests that the answer is "no", but it's still a little vague.

Overall, a solid moveset. Could be a bit more detailed in places, and could be a bit more crafty with its unique traits, but you know what? It's simple while still being a fun-sounding character to play as, and without becoming trite. A thumbs-up from me.[/collapse]

by APC99
[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Mabel and Dipper
For reference I have read some of your other sets APC, and I can clearly see in your more recent ones that you are trying to be more creative. That is in some ways a good thing, MYM in general likes wackier stuff. But to be totally honest I think this set is going in the wrong direction with it, where you sacrifice all practicality by removing the Smashes as KO moves for instead some wacky effects that really need to be placed on the specials or scrapped entirely. The foe can just smack you out of using that flashlight to grow them at any point in time, and it's also a hold move, really not fitting for a smash. The Up Smash has similar problems and swapping specials with the foe is a really bizarre effect, given I can't see Mabel and Dipper using a lot of opponent's special moves. For that matter, the aerials are incredibly awkward with them throwing what I can only assume is a pumpkin for the Up Aerial and dealing such a tiny amount of damage, while having two infinite recovery measures on other moves with the Nair and Fair(at least I assume the Fair doesn't send them into helpless) and a warp to the ground on back aerial of all inputs.

The lack of KO moves on the Smashes is a real problem here because you only give two KO measures, the Neutral Special and Down Smash. The Down Smash seems to basically be a more effective version of Neutral Special since you provide no detail on lag and it summons two at once and combines their knockback for a KO. But at the same time, the minion you get is luck based, with several being useless or almost entirely useless and even amongst the good ones, looking at the damage percents I wouldn't expect them to be able to KO very well. KOing with this set really just comes down to hoping for the instant KO summon or getting two with reasonable power on Down Smash, making the sets only way of getting kills entirely luck reliant. Aside from that, my knowledge of this show isn't great but from what I know all of these are villains he's summoning, so why the heck are they helping Mabel and Dipper? It's not good for the characterization of Mabel and Dipper to be summoning them, let alone the villains they are summoning.

Lastly I wanted to point out that the set is really really lacking in detail and the writing is terribly confusing. There are plenty of interpretations for what the Up Smash actually means by "changing Specials". For all we know it could attach a half dozen zany effects you never even described to every special move in both players sets, and we'd never know, or swap around which input activates which special. Is it a trap or do they pick it back up afterwards, for that matter? Down Smash is pretty impossible to figure out too and I assume it just summons two copies of one minion at once at random, but it's extremely vague. Aside from that, there's incredibly little detail on knockback, lag, how some of these effects work, and in some cases you even forget damage percents. It gives me the impression that the set was incredibly rushed. The fact that you don't describe any of these wacky items or characters utilized in the set or give pictures and just tell us to go watch the entire first season or read the wiki to figure it out isn't really helping matters.

Despite this I don't think this was a bad set for you to make, as a lot of lessons can be taken from it. First of all, keep your moves that don't deal damage or knockback on the specials. It's perfectly fine if you have a flashier input past the specials but just at least make it usable as an attack. Second, if you're going to reference something from a source material the reader doesn't know about, give a bit more description as opposed to just assuming we know the source material. Third, give us more details in regards to how the set is balanced, as this one seems to be wildly imbalanced in many ways but we don't know enough details to really confirm. Keep those things in mind, and you're sets will improve immensely.[/collapse]

by Z1GMA
I appreciate the increase in detail and effort in the individual moves in this set, plus the addition of pictures, while at the same time you've made the organization a lot more pleasant to read than it was in Dive Man. While I'd call the individual moves still a bit on the bland side, there's very clearly more effort put into how they function with the mentions of tech chases and sweet spots and the like. The first 3 specials were also kind of cool with the projectile that is incredibly strong if it specifically hits at max range, a controllable carrying projectile in a set where the positioning actually feels warranted due to how some of his sweetspots work, and the admittedly silly kick that knocks the opponent around the opposite blast zone is one of the rare moments when just discussing follow up options catches my interest due to the absurd nature of the knockback.

It's certainly still a set that could be improved a great deal, I wish the standards interacted a bit more with the specials beyond the couple that provide some powerful follow ups on the kick/water sphere. I do think the animations with him using water to make blades in the later moves or the water sphere to grab are cool, but I sort of wish you had been willing to be a bit more creative in their effects and it makes me feel like this character had more potential than you really capitalized on. A particular thing is that you have a character with water hitbox and electric hitboxes, and yet no lingering water hitbox to conduct electricity? That's a bit disappointing, to be totally honest. The water sphere could also use some number crunching, 2 seconds is a long time in Smash Bros and nobody wants to wait that long to gain control again because they were hit by some projectile, even if Rain's not doing anything in particular while they're in stun. Maybe make the orb move faster while holding them for half as long? Still, this is a pretty nice improvement from you Zigma and I look forward to where you go from here.

As an aside, here's Hoppip, my first set. It was actually pretty well liked but it was likely only as good as it was because I lurked the thread and made sets on my computer for literal years before joining.[/collapse]
[collapse="BridgesWithTurtles"]Rain was a surprisingly good read; considering I'm not the biggest Mortal Kombat aficionado; you've done well in letting the character come across to the reader. The moveset itself is fairly generic, of course, but that's a little forgivable because of the character being worked with (fighting game characters tend to have those generic punches and kicks, after all). Still, while I appreciate that you tried to stay as close to the source game as possible, Rain really could use more interaction between his moves, like ForwardArrow said. For a character so focused on tech chasing and spacing, features like lingering hitboxes that interact with one another would really serve to highlight and expand upon that, making Rain a fighter only like himself, and not just part of the general mold of similar characters like Marth. It's perfectly fine if you like adapting characters from their source material as faithfully as possible, but I wouldn't be averse to trying to get a little more crazy as long as the character is still accurately depicted. It's not like Fox is all about flying around and shooting in Smash Bros, after all, even though that's what he's known for in his own games. So too I think that Rain could be a bit more ambitious and deviating with his playstyle.
The specials are all pretty creative, actually, aside from the so-so Up Special. I like the idea of the thundercloud projectile which gets stronger as it travels; it reminds me of PK Flash, which is a unique move itself, so it's not something we see too often. The roundhouse kick is hilarious and creative to boot (no pun intended), and you do a good job of describing such an odd technique and its unorthodox effect. The Water Sphere is an interesting idea, but could use some number crunching. The rest of Rain's moves suggest he's an upwards killer, which makes the Side Special's horizontal knockback all the more interesting, though not questionable due to its intended use as a combo starter rather than a kill move. There's a coherent playstyle here, which is notable, though it's largely the sort of playstyle you already see in Smash Bros.
This is definitely your best set yet. From the helpful use of images to the increased adherence to description and formatting, Rain is a significant step in the right direction.[/collapse]
Scrooge McDuck by TewnLeenk
[collapse="Z1GMA"]As soon as I red Scrooge McDuck, I knew what his vB would be. Good choice there, but it's sort of
unclear how his horiznotal movement works while continuously pogo'ing.
>B is pretty cool, but wouldn't it be fantastic if instead of "Other players can't touch the sack of cash", opponents WERE able to catch the sack, making Scrooge rage, zap up to them and deliver a powerful blow with his cane, etc..?
It'd work like when you catch an item thrown at you, but in this case, probably by mistake,
and yr character would freeze until Scrooge hits you.
B: A set time of 2 seconds for a reflector spells trouble for the user. How's the start-up and cooldown? Is it punishable?
I appreciate the creativity in his Ftilt, but a minion-based Ftilt that does 9% damage and kills at 150% seems a bit on the OP side - it totally depends on the start-up/cooldown and Travel Speed of the minions.
When pulling off Dair, what is the duration of the emptying?
Overall, a pretty creative and fun moveset, but there's a lack in Knockback Direction as well as start-up/cooldown on most moves.
We're looking forward to your next set, bro.
Down Taunt: Get a One-stock Lead, and this taunt is pretty much auto-win.
I feel it'd annoy the hell out of ppl. What volume is the clip played at?
(Am I the first person who has commented on a taunt?)[/collapse]
[collapse="Junahu"]crooge McDuck:
Sorry I couldn't structure this into a more coherant comment, but here are some of my thoughts on the moveset anyway. I love me some DuckTales by-the-way, so thanks for making this moveset.
    • I adore his Side B. Something about him diving after a sack of cash, even if it fell offstage, tickles me. I'm glad to see you've put some thought into encapsulating the frugal personality of Scrooge.
    • I'm on the fence about whether or not it's alright to have his three nephews tagging along behind him everywhere if they're only going to be used in two attacks. I think some of Scrooge's throws are begging for some nephew hijinks.
    • It's not fair to make the player repeat the Down B input every time they want to bounce. In-game, you just hold the button until you want to stop bouncing.
    • The way the moveset was written is for the most part clean and intelligible. But there are some desciptions, such as "Scrooge swings his cane downward like a butcher's knife", that read a bit too violent for the cartoonish tone of the set.
    • Compared to the rest of the moveset, the aerial attacks feel underdeveloped. It's a shame too, because between his Cane Pogo, Moneybag Dive and his Down Air, Scrooge sounds like he'd be a lot of fun to play in mid-air.[/collapse]

[collapse="BridgesWithTurtles"]As you stated, this moveset's intended as a celebration of the Ducktales re-release, and unfortunately, that shows in that it comes off as rushed. My first problem comes with the neutral and side specials. I'm not extremely familiar with the character, but I find it hard to envision him just throwing away his money like that. Sure, he quickly scrambles to retrieve it, and that obviously accurate side of his character is then seen, but if he's so frugal, then why is he throwing his money out in the first place? It'd be like Yoshi throwing up just so he could eat the food again. It just doesn't sit well with me.
It's hard to make out a playstyle with Scrooge. He's billed (once again, no pun intended, but dang, that's a double pun, with duck bill and dollar bill), as a glass cannon who gives out pain while being poor at taking it himself. Not only is this not very original, but it's not expanded on into something greater. Other than my not liking the money-throwing Side Special, my other dislikes line up with Junahu's. He's supposed to have a great air game, but the aerial section is lacking in detail; in fact, much of the set is, with descriptions becoming less meaty after the specials section. I'm also not a fan of the nephew moves, for much the same reason as Jun. If they're not a major part of his moveset, they just come off as awkward and underused. Most of the inputs in general are tersely described, which makes it difficult to envision much of a playstyle, and the lack of move interactions make Scrooge come off as a fun-to-play, but generally undeveloped, character. That's all I really have to say. It's not a bad moveset, but it's pretty much standard. Keep it up, and you can make something much better.[/collapse]

Blood Falcon by Z1GMA
[collapse="BridgesWithTurtles"]In the opposite manner of Rain, Blood Falcon surprised me by being under-detailed, and I think it's a step backward in terms of quality. It's a clone set, which I don't frown upon, but I do dislike your decision to leave out descriptions of moves that aren't "different" from the Captain's. The problem here is that all clone characters' moves are different from those of whom they were cloned, even if they are aesthetically identical. Blood could actually be an interesting character because it'd be cool to see how he could put a unique spin on Captain Falcon's moveset. You can't really expect him to have the rest of his moves be cloned exactly from the Captain, however; if you do, that's a problem because it'd clash with the playstyle you have in mind for Blood. You can't just copy-paste moves from one character to another without making functional changes and expect a flowing playstyle, even if the latter character is a clone. Imagine how different Falco's game would be if he had the exact same Blaster as Fox instead of his own.
Blood has a pretty obvious, clearly-described, and interesting playstyle illustrated by the moves you do provide; unlike the Captain, Blood's a punisher more than an aggressor. It suits his character, and you clearly understand what sort of stats and moves he needs to play that role. This makes me a bit disappointed that you don't detail a full moveset and fully develop the playstyle. I'd like Blood Falcon a lot more if it had the same amount of detail put into it as Rain.[/collapse]
Nintendog by Staffofsmashing, Keybladeguy and APC99
It is a fairly ambitious task to make a set for what is effectively a normal real life dog, and I hate to say it but I don't particularly like this approach. The hand is absolutely bizarre to have assisting the dog in battle, since in the game it is effectively attached to a real life person, and is supposed to represent the player. In the context of Smash Bros, a random floating hand representing the owner feels terribly out of place. The hand unfortunately fails to make the set any more interesting because you just use it to shoehorn in props, which for the most part you just throw around as projectiles or assist in melee in ways that don't really feel all that natural as animations in the case of some throws. It's not anything unplayable, but if you want to include the owner at least include him as a full sized normal human instead of a floating hand, and frankly I don't think the hand is used well given it exists solely to just provide a few random prop attacks that do not manage to make the set more interesting. I don't intend to discourage you from making this kind of character, but it'd be preferable if it was handled in a way that made more sense.[/collapse]
[collapse="BridgesWithTurtles"]Unlike ForwardArrow, I don't necessarily have a problem with the hand being part of the character. My concern comes from the fact that the hand is so vaguely described in its role. You state that the hand takes damage for the dog, but the dog is part of the battle, is it not? It's not like it just spawns on-screen for every move, is it? I can't really tell, and I'm pretty lost. If the dog is still controlled and on the plane of battle, the idea of the hand taking damage when in actuality, the dog is the one getting attacked, doesn't really alleviate the "PETA problem". It's pretty much just a cheap way to handwave the controversy, but really, the set would just be better off ignoring the issue and just having the dog take full ownership of the entity's hurtbox. The hand itself, however, I have no problem with, and I'm fine with the idea of having it spawn items and guide the dog, so long as it's either an aesthetic effect similar to the Pokémon Trainer with the dog itself being what the player controls, or a more unique playstyle in which solely the hand is controlled to direct what is essentially an AI dog. What this set has is (seemingly) a vague middle ground where the dog is on the field but the hand is the one taking damage, and really, it just doesn't work for me, especially because it's never really worked into the moveset, and doesn't make Nintendog unique in playstyle. It's just sort of...there, as a way to shrug off the animal abuse issue.
The moves themselves are fitting enough, but don't really contribute to a grand playstyle for the character, and lack the detail necessary to do so. There are a lot of props which are aesthetically unique, but function no more intuitively than any move already in Brawl. The set's decisions serve to make Nintendog fun to watch, but not necessarily to play, which is a hurdle I hope this puppy can jump over if you decide to take another whack at this character again in the future.[/collapse]
Cody Travers
by CrossoverMan
by Staffofsmashing
[collapse="TheKalmarKing"]Spiky-Eared Pichu

Congrats, StaffofSmashing! You made the first completely random set of the contest! Cheers!

No seriously, let's see where the set filled me with incomprehension:

This is comparable to a combo of Jigglypuff's Rollout and Sonic's Dash. Though, he turns into a rock. This makes the attack affected by slopes and drops. It is a great move if you want to drop on an opponent or if you want to come down a slope fast. It does 6%."

Random petrification and random slopes-and-drops (To speak in your own terms) use? In a Pichu set?

Pichu will put his arm up, and mud will appear. He'll then slap the ground, and mud will splatter up. MOST ending lag of all his moves, but has a side effect of a pitfall effect. A button masher wont have a problem escaping this, but it's still useful in dire situations. 9%."

Random pitfalling? IN A PICHU SET?

With a mad expression, Pichu will crouch, before jumping up and doing a double uppercut"

Didn't know Knuckle Joe was giving fighting lessons to small animals, does he give lessons to cats too? Because I'd really like to see my cat do a Shoryuken.

Pichu spins around, and petals come up, damaging the target with 13%. It'll make Pichu dizzy if used 3 times in a row with no moves in between, and is great for spacing. Be careful though, as that dizziness is pretty deathly."

Why the dizziness? Why the petals? Why would anybody use it three times in a row if it's so great for spacing? And why are all the grabs so powerful???

Those were my favorite random moments in the set, but there is many more in the actual set. Though rejoice, SOS: I think that actually was pretty funny.[/collapse]
Strider Hiryu
[collapse="ForwardArrow"]Strider Hiryu
I admit that your sets have not really appealed to me in the past at all so I came into Strider with very low expectations... and I came out finding it was better than I expected. The set at least provides a rather unique rushdown tool in the Up Special with both the kick and regular variations allowing for some potentially cool combos, and the Up Smash bird just adds to the decent array of options you have here. He's a bit more straight rushdown aside from those moves, but the fact that he's got a few versatile options in the specials (particularly the DSpecial) and the ability to use a large number of his attacks as projectiles makes me think he at least has more depth than is immediately apparent.

That said there are a few technical issues here and there, namely the mechanic. I imagine that cutting projectiles out of the air and dicing up traps is fun on paper, but characters heavily reliant on those things are pretty screwed over against Strider, never mind the melee characters who always lose in priority battles to literally every sword attack in his set. It's just unfair to a large portion of both Brawl and MYM sets, and it's not like he was exactly underpowered without it when his combo options are a fair bit more advanced than most Brawl characters and his damage, speed, KO percents, and range aren't exactly awful. Lastly, I'd agree with you that the set reaches a point it seems to run low on inspiration, with a few input cop-outs such as the Pummel/Back Throw(I don't demand a creative back throw but can you at least give us a slighly different animation and damage percent or something?) Regardless while I will say I'm not a fan of the set, at the very least I think it's a clear step up from your other work and it wouldn't be too hard to improve for you to improve from here.[/collapse]
[collapse="TheKalmarKing"]Strider Hiryu

I like this set; Why? Because it's very simple and engaging to read, the character is totally respected and the gameplay is very correct too. I particularily liked the "Smash" input on every attack past the smashes, namely the aerials and the grabs. I'm kinda a fan of Smash inputs. :p(However, I'd say the Smash B-Air is too powerful... Okay, there's an half-second of startup, but still!) Also, the fact that you can actually jump and ride on his robotic companions is very fun to me, it's got to be one my favorite aprts of the set! About the Cypher meechanic, it's true it's a bit broken: absolute priority against bare-handed fighters and projectile users? Isn't that a bit too much? Personally, I would have moved this effect to the N-Spec, where it would have been temporary. Finally, I can say that while it was a pretty fun read, the set could probably have digged deeper in Strider Hiryu's gameplay, but since you admitted that flaw, I won't hold it against you.[/collapse]
[collapse="BridgesWithTurtles"]Strider Hiryu

In an effort to contribute to this thread's waning activity, here's my two cents.

Hiryu falls into many of the same tropes as a lot of similar characters; he's fast, he has range, and he even has that lovable slide kick that likes to pop up every so often. That's not to say the set fails to differentiate itself, but rather, I feel like the character is pretty much portrayed as accurately as possible. Which, I suppose, in a way, makes it difficult to differentiate itself. But I am a quibbler.

The extreme range on so many of Hiryu's moves make him a deadly contender; with his amazing speed and plethora of projectiles, the range on his attacks seemingly serve to make him radically frustrating to fight against, and to top it all off, his nearly unmatched priority makes him scarily powerful. As FA said, the sword attacks eating through projectiles and outprioritizing all melee attacks makes Strider a pain for both projectile- and melee-heavy characters, so no matter what range he or his opponent fights at, Strider has the advantage. The amount of range on this guy alone is pretty nuts, as almost all of his projectiles are screen-wide in range, which almost makes them redundant with one another. The Down Special orbs in particular are mentioned as being used for eating through attacks, but pretty much everything in Hiryu's arsenal serves the same purpose.

On the subject of specials, I like Up Special's combo options and unconventional means of determining distance. I also like the Side Special's multiple functions and the way that it interacts with recovery (ditto for the Up Smash). Down Special, however, I just find redundant, though it's among the more interesting of the projectiles in the set. I don't like the Neutral Special in that it gives Strider a boost I feel that he doesn't need, and the sword beams are just excessive, considering his already fantastic range.

Some more things that I consider positive are the "crumpling" Down Throw, which is unique and useful, and the cancelable Up Tilt. Oh, and the satellite which can be used to cover for another attack's startup (not that he really needs much help in that department).

Not really sure how to end this comment. Overall, I'd rank the set a 7/10. It has everything it needs to be considered a "good" set, but nothing that really made me think of it as "great". Sorry if that all sounded really negative.[/collapse]


Jet the Hawk
by BridgesWithTurtles

Jet the Hawk
Quite pleased to see another set from you Turtles, especially after how solid Whiscash was. Jet actually has a pretty solid base too, with his specials allowing him to zip along the sides of any structure, create slow projectiles and traps along them, and create structures in fairly interesting ways with that awesome DSpecial. Sets that do "attacking in motion" were a big thing back in MYM11 and admittedly I felt most of them lacked any real depth and that playstyle was overused to hell, so it's nice to see you actually add some substance to it here... in the specials anyway. I think the standards, while functional and occasionally having a decent twist or two thrown in there, are a pretty big let down and yes I understand this isn't exactly an easy character, but I wish the attacks had a little more depth to them than the occasional suggestion of knocking a foe into a tornado or reflecting a projectile, or having one specific follow up. I'm not saying the attacks later on have to be flashy and interaction heavy, but I'd like a little more than what I got later on in the set, say something on par with what Whiscash had past the specials. I wouldn't call this a bad set though on account of what you set up at the start, but I can't really say I like it when it drops off so badly later either.[/collapse]

by Junahu
I admittedly don't have too much to say about this set, but overall, I quite liked the set. It was a little simple, but that's something that I never mind. He seems like a pretty fun character to play as. Try and get as much debris as possible on the stage, and suck them all up for use later for some potential crazy damage. I really like the interactions on how Dustman uses and sucks up debris. The grab was also pretty cool; sucking/slamming opponents right into his dustshoot and his general grab game is some pretty fun stuff. Overall, I can imagine myself having a blast trying to experiment with debris and various ways to use them. He does seem a bit underpowered though; what's he going to do against crazy rushdown characters that won't give him a chance to establish himself (I guess he could suck them in via his Dspecial if they get too close).
Overall though, it was a pretty enjoyable read. The organization was nice and fitting (though SPECIALS LAST?! :@) Yeah, nice job Jun! Glad I read it. Okay, maybe I said more than I intended.[/collapse]
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Is it A Little Dusty In Here?

Dust Man is a bit hard to comment, because it feels like a very "there" set: It exists, it isn't really bad or anything, but it also doesn't feel particularly good or enjoyable to read or anything. Dust Man's junk isn't really bad, but there isn't much to play off it, and I don't mean interactions: it feels like the moveset doesn't pull in any direction, like Brawl movesets do, and it doesn't really do anything else to make up for that, which gives it the feel of something that is there. It's kind of like commenting on a sea cucumber: It exists, it is what it is, but there just isn't much to say except that it is a sea cucumber.

(Also, for this specific set, the DAir charging seems odd)[/collapse]

by Junahu
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]1 Hydrogeddon + 2 Oxygeddon

The lack of Water Dragon being able to jump and in general how jumping is handled in the set feels poor, especially since the image makes it feel like "oh hey it's a jumping dragon!". Perhaps more importantly, it is a really poor carrot/stick thing: Your reward for getting in the air feels really weak, while using it as a downside and just making the air game really bad feels hollow and not particularly in tune with what I understand of the character (For all I know, Water Dragon is chained to the ground in-game...but you can't assume your reader knows this, especially if your bit on it does not mention it). So as a plus, it feels weak, as a minus, it feels more annoying than anything, and it adds little to the character.

The moveset does bring some nice bonuses with the body and uses it satisfactorily. While the grab has a point, it still feels kinda annoying to not give any throws. I'm starting to feel moves like this are more appropriate on a command grab than the character's actual grab. Outside of that, Water Dragon has decent concepts with messing with it's movement and a good modicum of flow, though it feels a bit like an inferior Gyarados in concept...but ultimately an enjoyable read, which is good. I just wish there were not so many things that I don't like![/collapse]

by Junahu
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Boner Golem

Yet another set with a freaky jump mechanic that I don't particularly enjoy! Well, not entirely true: I don't hate the mechanic itself, but the fact it is on a jump. That is a horribly awkward place to play with it and really hurts the set. How do you deal with a simple game on Battlefield with this? And it'll annoy the player, worst of all: Players who want to just play as the base Bone Golem or don't want to be very aerial will hate turning forms every time, for example. This is the kind of thing that you don't want on your jump, you want on a move or something. Putting it on the jump is just a way to make some players of it hate the fact they can't move around most stages without seperating...

Also, it makes playing Bone Golem, or at least combined Bone Golem, impossible on some stages, because only one half of it can jump. How is this thing meant to work on stages like Rainbow Ride or even something simple like Brinstar? You could never escape the acid, for example. This whole thing working while it jumps just makes it hideously unviable, while lacking much of a purpose IMO.

Aside from that, the stuff with the bones and all, especially the skull, is fairly nice, but the throws are merely okay and the aerials feel lackluster, especially bringing the mechanic to a bit of a down note. I do quite like the Side Special and Up Special, and it feels like a much improved Dry Bones. Certainly worth a read.[/collapse]


Carmilla's mechanic is quite simple and yet effective, essentially taking a spin on Ice Climbers-style tag team by mixing up their location and giving your "Nana" different attacks. As a big fan who thinks IC-style sets still have good potential, even with things like Hugo existing, and this set does some nice stuff with it. The blood is a simple but effective mechanic that is truly vampiric, while many of Carmilla and Laura's interactions feel simple and natural, giving it good flow and preventing players from being overwhelmed. At the same time, there are certainly sections where a bit more is left to be desired: For example, the only thing I enjoyed about the grab game was the pummel, as it has the bizarre choice to not let Carmilla throw and the throws feel like they subjugate gameplay too much to animations. I think that the set could have more smoothly integrated itself in there.

I also feel like some moves could have a more complete feel or have a spot in the moveset: For example, I'd have been interested to hear what ways the dragging drill kick DAir could be used...though I could not think of any in specific, it feels like there should be, and while I like having things to figure out for readers, this feels a bit like something that'd be nice to flesh out due to first impressions anyway. There's also number crunching to be done (BAir can stun you both for longer than Ganondorf's Warlock Punch takes to start up) and the latter aerials feel a bit like they don't have a place in the moveset.

But it's a rock solid set with bits like blood and the ability to mess with Carmilla's positioning that make it sound fun but easy to play with a good variety of possibility.[/collapse]

by Junahu
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]I'll comment you...AND JUNADAY!

I love these specials! They all seem to have some nice and quite well handled uses, with the buffing from the crosserang being particularly noteworthy, and I greatly enjoyed the use of the axe, a very simple yet very effective zoning tool that turns into an interesting projectile/trap combo when you're buffed. One bad thing to note, however, is that the holy water should really cause less uncontrolled flinching on contact: Nobosy wants to be unable to control their character for 1.4 seconds (About as long as Warlock Punch takes to start-up and then probably execute, as it takes 1.1 seconds to start-up) during the hits. Aside from that, they are c'est magnifique.

The dodge arts are all very good, as they provide him abilities to dodge without invulnearability and are extremely intuitive, most players will understand them after a single match or two, but offer a lot of hidden depth for a player who takes time to find more intimate knowledge of the game, the uses of the spot dodge and forward roll versions are particularly impressive and the fact they can be used in the air offers him great air game options. Quite honestly, it probably gives Richter a more interesting air game than Bone Golem. And since they still have properties you can dodge with and Richter still has his normal shieldgrab, he isn't murdered defensively, so it is very viable.

The standards all make good use of sweetspots and help emphasize Richter's game: He is very much about spacing foes into specific areas and crushing defenses while his own defenses are always a bit aggressive. They don't do anything fancy, but they set up the core of his game excellently and have nice depth to them. Little things like the D-Tilt's choice of what to do are fun.

The key attack is another move I have to be critical of, though: The fact it makes him invicible seems odd, although I have NO idea what use keys are in Castlevania...I presume they open doors. The super powerful secret hitbox and the invincibility make it all feel like it comes out of nowhere and a bit disconnected: It would have felt better if, say, it was the cross he pulled out, an item well known for it's protective ability. On the other hand, Richter's D-Smash is a good example of how to make a move elegant and simple in concept and execution make a playstyle richer and deeper.

The aerials are probably the flattest part of the set, though I like the NAir's shorthop abilities and a good deal of the BAir and UAir, but they seem to lack a little bit of the oomph the rest of the moveset carries, even if they are never poor. But the throws return to being nice, as the pummel is a simple yet effective not-quite mechanic, while all the throws add to his game while never being obstructive: I especially enjoy their use as alternative KO options for people who have trouble sweetspotting, the gimping use of BThrow and the additional multiplayer functionality of FThrow.[/collapse]

by Junahu
Y'know, I always preferred Nidorino to the king.
ANYWAY, Nidorino was another set I quite enjoyed. You told me in the chat once that Nidorino had nil potential to work with (he just tackles...and stabs things with his horn), but I think you did a really good job with him. The various ways to poison opponents definitely makes him a threat. Making him scary to even approach the guy, and how he can slowly walk towards them with his side special makes him a far more interesting set than I thought could be possible for Nidorino (though I can see sword/weapon based characters with good reach giving him some trouble), and he seems pretty simple enough to pick up and have a lot of fun to play with. It's also really fitting to the character (and as a side note, I like how faithful moves are like Double Edge).
I don't have much to complain about, I'm still a little iffy on the down special. A counter that hits on any attack near him that misses is really good, though I guess stuff being to grab him during it balances it out. Overall, Nidorino was a really nice set, and seems like my type of character to play as.[/collapse]
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]Vs. Gengar!

Nidorino definitely feels like he falls in line with Toxicroak and Croagunk, even if he is not part of their line...and that isn't really a bad thing. Nidorino has it's own identity to them, a sort of mix between aggro and a staunch feeling of defending one's territory, which fits well with how Nidorino is.

While Nidorino's poison deals damage, it also provides a nice and minor debuff, which is good...but I will say that with the amount of ways Nidorino can poison the foe, and the time, it feels like it might be too easy to keep the foe too poisoned, especially with the easy of badly poisoning the foe. It feels like it wants to add another element to it to...not so much spice it up some, as much as give it a bit sharper focus by adding some contrast. I do quite like things like Horn Drill and the Side Special, but then there is some stuff that feels a bit meh...and the grab doing so much poison so easily is a bit of a downer. I also feel like there is a few hiccups around, like the NAir, that might not have the gameplay be up to the creative.

But at the same time, the poisoning itself is fine, just there is too much, and it gives a staunch view of Nidorino with a good playstyle, though I feel there is definite room for improvement in that regard, so it plays might have been a bit hard given the Pokemon, as well, but hey, there was Rattata! An enjoyable end to the early Junaday set rush.[/collapse]

by Kholdstare
[collapse="TWILTHERO"]Khold's Harem
Alright, first off to start the glorious Harem movement is Kholdstare, and you have an interesting sort of characters to say the least. You know your waifus way more than I do, but this seems a fun set to play as. Hermione's probably my favorite from the group, for the wide assortment of spells and the back aerial is fun stuff. I really like the characterization in this set, especially Rin. You said that you had a tough time characterizing her properly, but I think you did a really good job here (unlike a certain other Rin set...) The organization is also really well done, showing a lot of "class." If I had stuff to complain/nitpick about, I wouldn't mind some more details here and there, and Flannery...well, I don't really like that it has XX% chance of summoning this random fire Pokemon (and finish Torkoal already!) Personally, I'd make it so Flannery can choose between Pokemon like how Hermione can choose spells, and maybe make the stronger versions of the Pokemon selectable, but there's like an extra second of startup or something. I don't know, but I'm just nitpicking at this point. The point of the movement was to have fun, and I'm glad you made the set.
Overall, it was a nice read man! Oh, and your presentation is awesome.[/collapse]



by Junahu
[collapse="TWILTHERO"]Junahu's Harem
Man, this is probably the most fun I've had reading a set in a long while. I'm probably super biased when I say this, but this set really was great, Jun. You did a fantastic job characterizing each character in the set. Stuff like Mia Fey never really being gone after being KOed (also her up tilt lol) or Marshal having a pleasant chat for her his grab (which I actually borrowed a little bit for Hanako's side special) really shows me how much you really like the characters. The set itself of course is tons of fun. There's tons of options to play with and explore with, with tons of combo potential and I really like that you have options even if the rest of the group is KOed with Milla (I need to pick up Tales of Xillia now...) Lyn is probably my favorite from the group if only for her crazy quick slashes and my Fire Emblem bias.
Overall, it was a great read and set, and I'm really glad you made it (and helped make this movement happen in the first place!) I've yet to read your Castlevania sets and I only just skimmed Kusumi, but yeah, this is probably my favorite Jun day set.[/collapse]

by tirkaro
[collapse="TWILTHERO"]Tirk's Husabandos
Damnit tirk, I'm almost tempted to create my own husbandos set now, haha. Anyway, I've already told you this like a hundred times, but I really love your writing style man. It makes your sets in general a blast to read. Your husabandos was no exception (even if you really rushed it lol). I was laughing all the way throughout the whole set (I was dying once I reached the Smashes). This wasn't meant to be taken as a "serious" set (what with moves like the neutral special and forward aerial), but for what it's worth, I'm really glad you made the set. I know some people will miss the point and tear it apart amass, but I really enjoyed reading it, though I'd appreciate it if you had included more details about the moves. Toro was probably the star of the set for me, what with his wacky throws and what not. Enjoy your Skullgirls PC. =P[/collapse]

by Junahu
[collapse="FrozenRoy"]I Won't Face Myself and Search For Nothing

The harem sets were skipped for now for 3 reasons: 1. They look long with fancy text, 2. I was REALLY EXCITED for Kusumi and actually read her before a good deal of the previous sets and 3. They were long.

Kusumi-no-Okami is a fascinating set that opens up an avenue I hope to see explored more, especially as SSB4 gets closer and closer: Utilizing the Wii U Gamepad! Played exclusively with it, the moveset has a bit of a freaky mechanic until you realize it basically means you set the match to Stock, Time or Kusumi. Kusumi respawns endlessly and cannot be perma-killed, but she loses if she doesn't win after X amount of time no matter what, making her a bit of a stallwar maker.

The moveset itself takes interesting advantage of both the Wii U Gamepad and this mode: For example, Kusumi's ZL move makes her totally invincible in every way! ...Except she can't attack, so staying inside it all day means it will just end up with you losing. The obvious route of simply tapping an area and making an attack appear a while later is used, while attacks like Shell of Denial all do the things you'd expect, like let you draw with the pad to create something. It's quite sleek and elegant, and the set is extremely well characterized: the theme of the boss, of ultimate denial, is strong in this one and the feel is great. I particularly enjoy the little things in this set, with even just the slashes and the like.

But on the downside, there is a lot to dislike, I feel: The instant KO feels very powerful and too easy to accomplish, and I really dislike the "control" move, because it is extremely Kunino-Sagiri, not Kusumi-no-Okami, plus it seems a bit easy to take a good deal of control. While incredibly minor, I vaguely dislike only using one of the -Dynes. Shield of Denial also seems...iffy, especially if there is no way to make sure someone doesn't select Kusumi, as I can then imagine someone entering matches (especially online) and just ****ing with everyone. I do like the Gyroscope use, though, and the set overall. Junaday's Junahu sets are a great success![/collapse]


[collapse="TheKalmarKing"]Son Pikong

Combining Pikachu and Kid Goku? You're awesome! Anyway, it's rather simple, but also pretty enging to read thanks to the presentation; also it's core concept is quite simple while being very fun. Basically, it's based on using the Kaio-Ken and the Side-B cleverly to efficiently destroy your opponent with a Kamehameha, a Volt Tackle or a Side Smash; that's not counting Son Pikong's pretty cool mobility options and his great combo capability. Also on that note, being able to charge the Kamekameha on the Nimbus is pretty cool... Omnidirectional death, yay! Overall a pretty cool set, TWILT![/collapse]

by Chris Sifnoitis

Big Mac

Banned via Warnings
Sep 13, 2012
Rankings updated. Weighted Rankings, Comment Corner coming fairly soon.

Gruesome Toupee

I already previewed this, but I decided to give it a total reread, to arrange my thoughts and provide a comment. Gruesome Twosome is a vechile set, in the same vein as Beezwax and Garbage Man.

Something I noticed about this moveset that I did not before is that it is quite lockdown-y. There is the spider webbing of course, but the snakes also contribute to this, making it harder to escape, and the bedsheet ghosts further hurt this by making the lockdown more than obnoxious...and then I came to an interaction I realized only upon rereading that really makes it obscene: hit a bedsheet hit foe with a snake (or a snake hit foe with a bedsheet) and they now have to deal with the fact they cannot attack the snake while the snake can attack them to interrupt or otherwise harm them while they try to get the bedsheet ghosts off. Oh, and the Twosome can grab them to re-apply bedsheet ghosts, can throw more snakes or can spam U-Tilt to keep a steady stream of bedsheets out while the foe desperately tries to avoid it. This is pretty automatic of a playstyle, and arguably was before the ghosts are even introduced, that feels very strong when combined with the Twosome's superheavyweight status and, you know, all of his other moves. Oh, and you can set the bedsheet on fire, for added bonus fun. Strong fire.

Oh, and you can make them not even be able to see what is going on with the smokescreen. You know, in retrospect, this moveset has a lot more lockdown-y stuff than I imagined, whether intentional or not...I bet this would be annoying to fight.

This is not to say the moveset is without it's strong points, as I do quite like the way the dragon is used, with the ability to extend it around and the clumping, while I was never as big on Banbollow as others, is at least interesting. And the moveset does flow, even if the way it flows is actually not that good. And I do still like the rain clouds and thunder clouds, which seem like a cool concept and are executed decently.

Ultimately, I feel the failings of this moveset are that it did not accomplish the goal stated out in the playstyle: to turn the Creepy Coupe into something like a walking trap. The traps feel less like they'd be used as intended and more like more lockdown-ish moves, creating a more automatic and less interesting playstyle, while I found the more interesting moves, such as the dragon and the clouds, to be less related to this goal of self-trapping, although the dragon still can be useful for it.

I went into this looking to still like it and came out dissapointed. I find this a disturbing trend in your sets, such as Kong and Deathborn, in that they don't stand up well to rereads, as if it has ended up more surface than substance. Ultimately, I dislike this set, but I do admire it's bold look into the vechile genre and the attempt at the concept.
The ghost is knocked off with a single attack that does knockback, or even jumping and fastfalling. The snake is one flinch per second until knocked off, not exactly intefering with getting off a ghost. With how easy it is to get off a ghost in particular, you're fairly incompetent if you don't get a ghost off before getting hit by a snake. I always thought the ghost in particular was very weak. When their hitboxes are mostly traps and projectiles, I'm really struggling to see how they're especially good at heavy lockdown. Overpowered in general, sure. I need to make a vehicle set that's not the size of a house once of these days.

If you are insistent on your opinion, the other thing I would like to say is when you like boss sets anyway, such as Trent, I would also like to see you acknowledge how sets like Deathborn and this would function as bosses in your comments as well. They could very well function there regardless of if your accusations are true or not. I don't give summaries for 1v1/3v1 bosses anymore specifically for the boss section, because the expansion to boss is generally pretty obvious and doesn't terribly affect how they play. "Lockdown" elements are far more balanced in boss forms due to allies being able to interrupt stuff/save allies.

Tribute to a set you don't even seem to like all that much from 5 MYMs ago: The good things I said about Croagunk largely hinged on the aerials being changed from their filler temporary versions, which they weren't. Other inputs that I don't like that are still lurking around are the fsmash (The suction is interesting, but the projectile feels largely un-flowing and doesn't help that much with match-ups anyway, being quite a slow projectile), Side Special (Going past solid constructs feels like it has little to do with anything and is just bad match-up fodder) and Up Special (It just doesn't do much). The Neutral Special is a good introduction to the mechanic writing wise, but feels like a standard, most obviously a jab. The jab and Neutral Special being swapped would improve this, given the more unique properties of that move and how well Neutral Special fits on jab, but it would be too difficult for the writing. It just kind of feels it is how it is because it's there almost entirely for the sake of the reader, only to be later outdone, somewhat like sets like Zant.

While the execution is iffy, it certainly tries at points, and the playstyle concept is more interesting than what you'd expect out of a set of this calibur. The poison pressuring based thing is enough to give me a slight liking of this set. Enough that, say, it'd still squeak out a vote from me probably in MYM 13. Regardless of some of the bad inputs, the moveset still largely plays how I want it to play, and that certainly counts for something.

Morgan Freeman's character: I'm in general not a fan of the meat of this moveset that is the melee game. Not much to say other than I'm not seeing much of a playstyle, and that it feels like a very light and in-smash version of Vader which was already quite in-smash. That set had a decent balance, where this one takes it too far. I struggle to keep interest, and the playstyle in general feels like a more boring and straightforward version of that set's in general, and you know how I dislike heavy retreading of old ground in movesetting.

The grab-game and all of the specials save Up are what I like about the moveset, but aside from the Down Special most of these don't have a lot to do with Windu's game and form more of a sub-playstyle than anything. His ranged game is rather downplayed throughout most of the set, especially when his attacks without lightsabers are handwaved as force pushes in every direction.

Now, coming up with something in my mind about how Windu plays, I actually came up with something that I like. Essentially, after Windu goes on a rampage with his melee game with Down Special, he can use his ranged game until he recovers. Preferably, he can use uthrow to end the Down Special rage mode session so that he's already using his ranged moveset once it ends. This makes for an interesting hit and run mechanic while still enabling Windu to actually attack during the running portion. However, this is not acknowledged in the moveset, and you share my philosophy that moveset makers should not be credited for possibilities with their movesets they did not come up with themselves.


Smash Lord
Apr 26, 2007
Las Vegas, Nevada
The ghost is knocked off with a single attack that does knockback, or even jumping and fastfalling. The snake is one flinch per second until knocked off, not exactly intefering with getting off a ghost. With how easy it is to get off a ghost in particular, you're fairly incompetent if you don't get a ghost off before getting hit by a snake. I always thought the ghost in particular was very weak. When their hitboxes are mostly traps and projectiles, I'm really struggling to see how they're especially good at heavy lockdown. Overpowered in general, sure. I need to make a vehicle set that's not the size of a house once of these days.

If you are insistent on your opinion, the other thing I would like to say is when you like boss sets anyway, such as Trent, I would also like to see you acknowledge how sets like Deathborn and this would function as bosses in your comments as well. They could very well function there regardless of if your accusations are true or not. I don't give summaries for 1v1/3v1 bosses anymore specifically for the boss section, because the expansion to boss is generally pretty obvious and doesn't terribly affect how they play. "Lockdown" elements are far more balanced in boss forms due to allies being able to interrupt stuff/save allies.
The boss mode is not the main part of the set: The set was designed for 1v1 (otherwise it'd either be a 3v1 exclusive or the 1v1 would be the exra mode). Ergo, the comment will generally be designed more for 1v1, just like the set. As a boss though, they don't do much interesting aside from what I mentioned, while the more lock-ish down moves simply are now not broken, so it's not that much better and is ultimately not particularly noteworthy when it feels like a small part of the set.

If you get the ghost off before being bitten by the snake, you probably just used a move which did not hurt the snake, the snake will still bite you for damage given even jabs have lag even if small, shielding is hardly an option if you hit the sheet up as is suggested is the easiest way to remove it since it will just come back down, the sheet remains as a trap even after flying off and the Twosome can still swoop in for a grab to start it all over again or fire off a U-Tilt. Now imagine adding being unable to see if you even have a bedsheet ghost on you to the mix, in addition to being web stuck or anything. There's plenty of moves that restrict and hinder the foe in a manner remnisicent of lockdown.

However, this is not acknowledged in the moveset, and you share my philosophy that moveset makers should not be credited for possibilities with their movesets they did not come up with themselves.
I would like to know when I said this, seeing as I have certainly before given credit to sets for ideas explicitly not pointed out, so I do not find this to be true. I deduct points from sets that unintentionally create bad possibilities, I give points to ones that unintentionally create good ones. While I am fine with your comments on the sets themselves, I find this out of left field and not proven true by my actions or words.

Big Mac

Banned via Warnings
Sep 13, 2012
The boss mode is not the main part of the set: The set was designed for 1v1 (otherwise it'd either be a 3v1 exclusive or the 1v1 would be the exra mode). Ergo, the comment will generally be designed more for 1v1, just like the set. As a boss though, they don't do much interesting aside from what I mentioned, while the more lock-ish down moves simply are now not broken, so it's not that much better and is ultimately not particularly noteworthy when it feels like a small part of the set.
It is presented as a small part of the set. This lockdown garbage you are seeing does not particularly function at all in 3v1, making them play as I intended, which is something you actually like. I did not ask for you to focus on it, but for it even be acknowledged in any form, which you did not. It would give the set a reason to exist and to be played in this view of yours.

If you get the ghost off before being bitten by the snake, you probably just used a move which did not hurt the snake, the snake will still bite you for damage given even jabs have lag even if small, shielding is hardly an option if you hit the sheet up as is suggested is the easiest way to remove it since it will just come back down, the sheet remains as a trap even after flying off and the Twosome can still swoop in for a grab to start it all over again or fire off a U-Tilt. Now imagine adding being unable to see if you even have a bedsheet ghost on you to the mix, in addition to being web stuck or anything. There's plenty of moves that restrict and hinder the foe in a manner remnisicent of lockdown.
You can deal with a single weak hit from the snake after you get off the ghost if you are indeed stupid enough to get hit with a ghost and a snake at the same time. You do not need more than a second to perform a single attack to get off a ghost. I would also like to bring up that the snake's hit does knockback, not just flinching, so it would be difficult to chain into a grab.

I would like to know when I said this, seeing as I have certainly before given credit to sets for ideas explicitly not pointed out, so I do not find this to be true. I deduct points from sets that unintentionally create bad possibilities, I give points to ones that unintentionally create good ones. While I am fine with your comments on the sets themselves, I find this out of left field and not proven true by my actions or words.
It was in a skype call, so no, I can't quote you, but I do distinctly remember it.

In this case, you should be more open to the boss mode of the set regardless of it not being heavily promoted.


Smash Hero
Oct 5, 2008
Dedham, MA
Popping in to say: Slow projectiles are almost always strictly better.

They last longer thus are a threat to work around that much longer for the opponent, giving the shooter more options.

*pops out back to IRL business*


Smash Apprentice
Feb 17, 2009

Lord Magnemite​

Once a mild mannered magnemite with an uncharacteristic perchant for destruction, Lord Magnemite made it's criminal debut by single-handedly destroying a hardened military shelter. Ever since then, it was heralded as the scum of the universe.​

4/10 Dash Speed​
7/10 Air Speed​
2/10 Fall Speed​
6/10 Jump​
7/10 Air Jump​
1/10 Traction​
6/10 Weight​
Lord Magnemite is actually a transformation of regular Magnemite. In order to transform into Lord Magnemite, Magnemite must first do an edgehog KO. Magnemite must then perform all three taunts, and then grab the Smash Ball. Once the Smash is obtained, press the attack input, instead of the special input. Magnemite will then start it's transformation sequence. While it is transforming, you must hold down shield and press attack, then hold down attack while still holding shield and press special, then let go of shield and press jump, then let go of attack and special but hold down jump and tap the joystick up, down, left, right. Making sure to wait at least 6 frames, but no more than 13 frames, after tapping left. If this is done before the transformation animation finishes, Magnemite will successfully transform.​
Alternatively, hold down shield when selecting Magnemite.​
Neutral Special - Magnetize