[Major] "The Power of One" ~ Vid Channel links 1st post + Montage by Dekar

[Ghostbone]

When has anyone ever started on FD?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't know the last time anyone in QLD in the past year has picked Lylat first

That means that one of the following is probably true:
a) The players didn't strike and instead just agreed on a stage/went random.
b) The players didn't know the advantages given by stages and striked poorly.
c) It has happened, and you just haven't been attentive enough.
d) Your starter list was crafted in such a way that players felt striking LC was more beneficial than it would be with a normal starter list.

I'm basing this off what individual character boards have said about match-ups on the stage, your basing it off YOUR experiences in ONE state.

And when was the last time anyone ended up on FD?

EDIT: Ninja'd.

 

[Hotdog]

Pretty much everyone here always strikes lylat first lol.
We've never ended up on FD cause it's not a starter.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Pretty much everyone here always strikes lylat first lol.

I can bring up a truck-load of match-ups it is relatively fair on. Your players are probably just biased against it

Like wobbling, a liberal stage list, poke floats being banned, etc...

We've never ended up on FD cause it's not a starter.

And if it was a starter, you never would.

 

[Hotdog]

I would choose FD.

 

[Testikills]

Yes I am basing it off my experiences in my State, (the state where the tournament is being held). Which if what I read is right is what Vyse asked us for. What's our opinion of xyz. Vyse can and does read the Boards himself, I know this for a fact as I worked with him for over a year, (Unrelated: He is the reason I got into Smash). So he can get the Boards opinion himself. What he wants is to known what we want. If what you want is what the board wants that's fine but you can't knock down peoples own opinions because they don't agree with the board

Your players are probably just biased against it

Yes and our players (QLD) will be the majority of players there. Which means in the majority of matches it will be struck anyway.

And if it was a starter, you never would.

Actually FD and Lylat were both starters in QLD until roughly 6 months ago. I've played more 1st matches on FD then Lylat

I would choose FD.

The first tourney match I ever played you on was FD

 

[Hotdog]

You have a good memory Testi o_O

Starter:
Smashville

Counter:
Smashville

Banned:
Smashville

Make it happen Vyse.

 

[Testikills]

You have a good memory Testi o_O

Then for my CP you suggest Yoshi Island (Melee) and me not knowing any better agreed to it. Three Jab-lock kills up the right hill later and I was in loser bracket. I hate that PCYC now bad memories

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't see why we should base it off what is more likely to be struck anyway. Just have the most balanced stages as starters and that's that.

EDIT: Lol you actually got jab-locked 3 times. Did you not know how to tech or something back then?

 

[Testikills]

EDIT: Lol you actually got jab-locked 3 times. Did you not know how to tech or something back then?

Well I had owned the game for 2 days.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

No johns

 

[Nova]

Yes, Grim, no Johns.

Like you picking Poke Floats against me to prove whatever lololol.

Whoever is getting MM'd by Grim on that stage couldn't have made easier money. ^_^

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yes, Grim, no Johns.

Like you picking Poke Floats against me to prove whatever lololol.

Whoever is getting MM'd by Grim on that stage couldn't have made easier money. ^_^

No johns doesn't apply to me you goose, only other people.

I have several johns in particular for that match and I'm sure I'd win in a re-match

 

[Dekar289]

-Neutral-
Battlefield
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Smashville
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise

-Counterpick-
Delfino Plaza
Pokemon Stadium 1
Halberd


dgb

 

[Attila_]

@Atilla

Pokemon Stadium 2 doesn't favour Meta Knight >.>

I don't even support a 3 stage starter list, that list I posted before was based solely on match-ups, not my suggestions.

And lol at FD being "fantastic".

*Attila

It doesn't explicitly say there that it doesn't favour mk, just btw. and i'm not sure how it doesn't, the air stage is fantastic (mk is only vulnerable in the air when he's out of jumps in most mus, projectiles are mostly difficult to use, making him unapproachable), and the electric stage forces people to the edge, which is just asking mk to gimp them, or just camp the ledge. i mean, i wouldn't think it needs to be banned entirely, but it's not even close to starter material. once again, play the game, try these things out, instead of just trusting other peoples opinions.

and FD is fantastic, and i can't remember the last time I banned it or had it banned against me (this is including maining falco and ics in various tournies last year). it's a little different, deal with it, cause it's not half as polarizing as other stages. in fact, the only characters who arguably don't do well there are those who are **** on other cp stages (im thinking mk, wario and gw who **** on brinstar/rc/frigate). why even propose the double standard? and even then, they only winge about fd because its the closest they have to a bad stage (compare mk on fd to ics on brinstar, mk has it easy). not to mention that lylat is very polarizing as a starter, giving mk/snake/marth/gw a **** starter, while giving diddy/falco/lucas (and a bunch of other characters im not qualified to comment on) an unnecessarily difficult first game.

and if you're gonna play the 'just strike in then' card, i can say the same thing about fd.

 

[Vlade]

I'm not going to this event but I thought I'd drop in and say that we shouldn't be experimenting with new stagelists that no-one in Australia has tried yet at a major.

 

[CAOTIC]

I seriously love Vyse's stagelist before everyone started complaining! Is it still this?

Random Stage List
Fountain of Dreams
Dream Land
Final Destination
Battlefield
Yoshi's Story

Counter Stage List
Pokemon Stadium
Brinstar
Rainbow Cruise
Kongo Jungle
Mute City
Poke Floats
Corneria

 

[Dekar289]

all the arguing is for brawl lol
still haven't we grown out of stages like mute city yet lol

 

[Aussierob123]

Mute city and corneria are stupid.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

*Attila

It doesn't explicitly say there that it doesn't favour mk, just btw. and i'm not sure how it doesn't, the air stage is fantastic (mk is only vulnerable in the air when he's out of jumps in most mus, projectiles are mostly difficult to use, making him unapproachable), and the electric stage forces people to the edge, which is just asking mk to gimp them, or just camp the ledge. i mean, i wouldn't think it needs to be banned entirely, but it's not even close to starter material. once again, play the game, try these things out, instead of just trusting other peoples opinions.

It doesn't explicitly say it doesn't favour MK, but it does say that MK isn't that great on the air segment.

Why? Because it lasts for 30 seconds every match, is VERY easy to stall out and MK has abysmal air speed.

And the electric stage; Everything you said is refuted in that post.

And I have tried the stage out, it has also been legal in Raziek's stage for who knows how long without any problems.

and FD is fantastic, and i can't remember the last time I banned it or had it banned against me (this is including maining falco and ics in various tournies last year). it's a little different, deal with it, cause it's not half as polarizing as other stages. in fact, the only characters who arguably don't do well there are those who are **** on other cp stages (im thinking mk, wario and gw who **** on brinstar/rc/frigate). why even propose the double standard? and even then, they only winge about fd because its the closest they have to a bad stage (compare mk on fd to ics on brinstar, mk has it easy). not to mention that lylat is very polarizing as a starter, giving mk/snake/marth/gw a **** starter, while giving diddy/falco/lucas (and a bunch of other characters im not qualified to comment on) an unnecessarily difficult first game.

Erm... you say that it isn't as polar as RC...
Yet that list I posted before (with SV/PS2/LC as the top 3 stages) was based 100% on match-ups discussed by the character boards, and RC turned out to be very close to FD, where as LC was as good over-all as SV.

and if you're gonna play the 'just strike in then' card, i can say the same thing about fd.

When did I play that card?

@Aussierob
I agree.

 

[Attila_]

instead of relying on people who support port town for your arguments, stop for a moment and think.

It doesn't explicitly say it doesn't favour MK, but it does say that MK isn't that great on the air segment.

Why? Because it lasts for 30 seconds every match, is VERY easy to stall out and MK has abysmal air speed.

when is the last time that an mk lost in a timeout? he's the one doing the time outs, silly. i've actually still never seen an mk be timed out before. ever. i'm sure it does happen, but its freakin rare, and the mk must be ********.

and it says that mk isn't good, but quite frankly, that doesn't make sense. mk beats every single character in the air. he can only be punished when landing, except in unique circumstances or by specific projectiles. air transformation just means he doesn't have to land for even longer than normal. and it also helps push him to the ledge to land safely also.

And the electric stage; Everything you said is refuted in that post.

And I have tried the stage out, it has also been legal in Raziek's stage for who knows how long without any problems.

everything i said in my post is correct. players are forced into the middle of the stage, else forced to the ledge. no character (diddy maybe) has a chance at mk close up, so they're forced onto the treadmills or the ledge. stupid situation.

also, mk is banned in raziek's tournies, btw. which kinda ruins your entire point.

and i didn't say the stage was bannable, just not a starter.

Erm... you say that it isn't as polar as RC...

either do most top players. there's a reason why every american national has it a starter.

Yet that list I posted before (with SV/PS2/LC as the top 3 stages) was based 100% on match-ups discussed by the character boards, and RC turned out to be very close to FD, where as LC was as good over-all as SV.

funny that. pretty sure as snake/falco/ics (all my characters) i can safely say i'm forced onto a stage i really don't wanna verse mk on. in fact, i'm fine with almost everything else (ps1/bf/fd/yi are stages i consider fair against mk).

not too sure what mus have been taken into account hear, but they sure as hell don't help me out.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

instead of relying on people who support port town for your arguments, stop for a moment and think.

Port Town is a completely legitimate stage and I'd love to see you try and prove me wrong.

when is the last time that an mk lost in a timeout? he's the one doing the time outs, silly. i've actually still never seen an mk be timed out before. ever. i'm sure it does happen, but its freakin rare, and the mk must be ********.

It's 30 seconds. Not that difficult :/

and it says that mk isn't good, but quite frankly, that doesn't make sense. mk beats every single character in the air. he can only be punished when landing, except in unique circumstances or by specific projectiles. air transformation just means he doesn't have to land for even longer than normal. and it also helps push him to the ledge to land safely also.

Play me there, you as Meta Knight, me as whoever. I don't even like Brawl and I still doubt you could capitalize on me being up there unless I was like... Snake or someone, and even then I'd be able to avoid you I bet.

He has TERRIBLE air speed. And you CAN move back and forth while falling to avoid him. I have tested this and it isn't hard.

everything i said in my post is correct. players are forced into the middle of the stage, else forced to the ledge. no character (diddy maybe) has a chance at mk close up, so they're forced onto the treadmills or the ledge. stupid situation.

also, mk is banned in raziek's tournies, btw. which kinda ruins your entire point.

Again, it's for 30 seconds. You are perfectly safe on the ledge if you don't act like an idiot, and if MK wants to capitalize on the situation, he needs to get on the tread-mill himself, which gives you an opportunity to escape.

I forgot Raziek banned MK, my apologies.

and i didn't say the stage was bannable, just not a starter.

Fair enough.

either do most top players. there's a reason why every american national has it a starter.

Slavery was around almost all over the world for quite a long time, I guess that must be good as well!

You can't base how good something is on how many people do it.

funny that. pretty sure as snake/falco/ics (all my characters) i can safely say i'm forced onto a stage i really don't wanna verse mk on. in fact, i'm fine with almost everything else (ps1/bf/fd/yi are stages i consider fair against mk).

not too sure what mus have been taken into account hear, but they sure as hell don't help me out.

I can't really respond to this because there was no point to be made.

 

[tibs7]

Fd would be epic

that slavery comparison was stupid.

 

[Attila_]

so basically avoid mk on the bad transformations.... and that's it?

that adds up to... 1:30, yeah (i'm not actually sure, but it should be about this)? that's a pretty large chunk of time when you're versing an mk who knows how to time you out...

and there isn't a single character who is actually safe on the ledge against mk. the closest is probably gw, but even then, it was proved that he was vulnerble to good timing.

and i did make a point at the end there... your list of ps2/lylat/sv was supposed to be mu based, when it clearly gives certain characters (quite a few, actually) unfavourable mus. i used characters that i play as examples because they are the ones that i am most familiar with.

prove that fd is an unfair stage more often than not and ill never bring it up again.

 

[J-Birds]

Why are we talking about PS2, we have been through this **** sooo many times...
same with FD but meh

Grim - What matchup examples can you give where FD would impact the result of stage striking in comparison to having Lylat/PS1?

 

[Ghostbone]

Umm

The air transformation is bad for MK. He has crappy aerial mobility, and during it he falls incredibly slowly.
It's a bad idea to try to go in the air during it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

so basically avoid mk on the bad transformations.... and that's it?

that adds up to... 1:30, yeah (i'm not actually sure, but it should be about this)? that's a pretty large chunk of time when you're versing an mk who knows how to time you out...

I was saying you can avoid him, not that you have to. Direct confrontation with MK is perfectly legitimate on the air stage, and the electric stage for many characters.

and there isn't a single character who is actually safe on the ledge against mk. the closest is probably gw, but even then, it was proved that he was vulnerble to good timing.

If the MK wants to punish you on the ledge, they have to go onto the treadmill themselves, which gives you an opportunity to switch positions.

and i did make a point at the end there... your list of ps2/lylat/sv was supposed to be mu based, when it clearly gives certain characters (quite a few, actually) unfavourable mus. i used characters that i play as examples because they are the ones that i am most familiar with.

You named... 3 characters that wouldn't want to play against Meta Knight there. I can name 3 characters who wouldn't want to play against Meta Knight on Smashville just as easily. You have to think about all match-ups (well... probably only ones that go from S to D tier or something), not just the select few that help your point.

@Scrub Fox & Attila

I'm sure that MOST characters would strike FD against Ice Climbers. Most characters who can be chain-grabbed would strike it against Dedede (especially those that can be infinite'd). I'm sure there are many more individual match-ups against characters like Falco and Diddy Kong that I could list too if you want.

prove that fd is an unfair stage more often than not and ill never bring it up again.

See above.

 

[Attila_]

what jbirds is trying to say is that you'd end up on the same stage anyway. fd isn't going to affect things.

also:

-switching positions on the treadmill against mk doesn't matter, because he is the only character who is completely safe on the ledge (except in the ditto).
- if you think that direct confrontation with mk is viable than you've never played against a proper mk
- i stated my characters do badly against mk on all of those stages, not one of them. which is funny, cause that's a chunk of high tier that is negatively effected.
- i'd strike fd against ics/falco/d3, but wouldn't ban it against any of them. regardless of lylat or fd being the fifth starter, we'd end up of ps1/bf anyway. and like i said, i cp tibs to fd.

 

[S.D]

Thread = tl;dr

Brawl 3 stage starters works Vyse - we used to do it in Sydney.

Why bother including PS and Lylat in a 5 stage list when those will almost always be the first two stages struck?? Just simplify it to BF, YI, SV and you've got the most balanced list....

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Whatever, I have counter points to what you said Attila but this will just keep going on forever.

If you do the 3 stage starter list with a semi-liberal CP list then that is fine by me.

 

[Ghostbone]

Thread = tl;dr

Brawl 3 stage starters works Vyse - we used to do it in Sydney.

Why bother including PS and Lylat in a 5 stage list when those will almost always be the first two stages struck?? Just simplify it to BF, YI, SV and you've got the most balanced list....

Yay let's let some characters start on their second/third best stage in the game.
So balanced obviously.

And PS1 isn't generally one of the first struck, It's usually BF or YI from what I've seen.

And just because it works, doesn't mean it can't be improved on. 5 starters is better because you end up with a more even stage for the match-up.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I think we should all just do 11 stages, then everyone gets their way.

 

[Attila_]

with a starting list of:

fd
bf
yi
ps1
lylat

tell me which character is gonna play inevitably play on a stage that would be considered bad in any given mu?

 

[Dekar289]

hmm looks perfect to me and many others in the melb brawl scene... that's why it's the dgb neutrals!
take note vyse

by the way have you seen attila lately vyse he's like ****en zeus, i'd give him what he wants

 

[earla]

grimfandango, would you like to money match me at power of one in both melee and brawl?

bo5

 

[Grim Tuesday]

grimfandango, would you like to money match me at power of one in both melee and brawl?

Depends on the circumstances xD

I won't do any Brawl money matches (excluding Heavy Brawl <3), but I'm up for Melee if I have enough money on the day.

I wanted to play against you anyway in friendlies at least already, gotta play against all the good Melee players :D

 

[Ghostbone]

with a starting list of:

fd
bf
yi
ps1
lylat

tell me which character is gonna play inevitably play on a stage that would be considered bad in any given mu?

No smashville? lol

That looks ok though.

 

[Attila_]

whoops. edit that.

fd
bf
sv
ps1
yi

 

[Ghostbone]

whoops. edit that.

fd
bf
sv
ps1
yi

Ice Climbers get their third best stage.
Diddy also gets his third best stage.

How is that fair?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Just replace FD with LC, it is OBVIOUSLY less polar. >_>

Like this:
SV/LC/BF/PS1/YI