Data Mah0ne's Stuff about Puff

[Keblerelf]

...Because grabs can lead to Rest setups? Space animal slayer or platform techchase Rest spring to mind. The only times I've gotten space animal slayer on non-scrubs is with a grab into a buffered uthrow when they were expecting something else. If they're expecting a grab they'll just DI the uthrow. You're only gambling about 9% damage vs. a whole stock. I take that gamble, especially when they're at 0% where a throw won't lead to a followup or an edgeguard.

Why would you take that gamble? You're not going to get many opportunities to grab them in the first place. If you are able to get in close and grab, then you should grab. Even if they DI it behind you, you can get at least one bair off. You were going to try and hit them with an aerial anyway, why not get the additional 10-11%? Better players will always know that upthrow rest is going to come so it doesn't matter if you only go for grabs at kill %. If they have experience in the matchup, they will DI it.

And how is baiting and punishing "too inconsistent?" That's how you play this game.

Sorry, "too inconsistent" was a bad way to describe it. I think the phrase "bait and punish" is too broad to describe what a person should be doing in a match up. That can apply to every single character in every match up. I'm trying to learn how to play against certain characters by using my character's strengths against their weaknesses. Using the term "bait and punish" seems like you arent going to approach at all and it's more of a person against person battle instead of character vs character. I want to know how to deal as much damage as much as I can or get a kill for the least amount of effort. I don't want to have to read a guy's movements or try to change my playstyle to try and trick him if i don't want to.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Why would you take that gamble? You're not going to get many opportunities to grab them in the first place.

I play a pretty ground-focused, grab-heavy Puff game. How good you are at getting grabs is a direct consequence of how good you are at generating grab opportunities.

Using the term "bait and punish" seems like you arent going to approach at all and it's more of a person against person battle instead of character vs character. I want to know how to deal as much damage as much as I can or get a kill for the least amount of effort. I don't want to have to read a guy's movements or try to change my playstyle to try and trick him if i don't want to.

When you play Super Smash Bros.: Melee, you are playing against a player vs. player battle. You must always be wiling to put in the effort to get damage or kills, you must always be willing to read a guy's movements or change your playstyle, because that is how winning is done. If you don't want to put in the effort, you are going to run into a wall sooner or later and you will stay there until you decide to put in the effort (or switch to Falco).

 

[Keblerelf]

I play a pretty ground-focused, grab-heavy Puff game. How good you are at getting grabs is a direct consequence of how good you are at generating grab opportunities.

You play a grab heavy puff game, but you don't go for grabs? what??

When you play Super Smash Bros.: Melee, you are playing against a player vs. player battle. You must always be wiling to put in the effort to get damage or kills, you must always be willing to read a guy's movements or change your playstyle, because that is how winning is done. If you don't want to put in the effort, you are going to run into a wall sooner or later and you will stay there until you decide to put in the effort (or switch to Falco).

Yeah, I gotta put in effort to get dmg. But id rather put effort into something that will give me the most amount of benefit vs the effort that I put in. For instance, it'll help me more to learn how to space bairs against peach, something that every peach player seems to complain about, than for me to focus on learning how to read the person is going to float. If I can abuse something that the other player can't do anything about, why would I need to put energy into reading them? Same reasoning for your choosing to not upthrow at 0. Why would you go through extra steps when you can get the guaranteed damage in the first place? You are allowing your opponent an opportunity to outplay you if you choose to wait until the perfect moment to go for that grab. What if you never get that chance to grab again?

 

[Massive]

Against spacies, a grab can easily become a stock. Not just uthrow, but even bthrow and dthrow.
They all open up for gimp possibilities.

I can't think of how many matches I've won and stock I've taken simply by wavedashing back > grab > bthrow and ledgeguarding.

Not only that, look at how frequently Hbox goes for grabs (all the friggn' time). He's great at tomahawk grabs, pivot/turnaround grabs, drill grabs, and even dash grabs. I would go so far as to credit a lot of his success to how good his grab game is. It is so easy to convert a stock off a grab in most cases that I'm surprised more puffs don't focus on it.

 

[squible2]

The only times I've gotten space animal slayer on non-scrubs is with a grab into a buffered uthrow when they were expecting something else.

How do you buffer a throw?

 

[FerrishTheFish]

You play a grab heavy puff game, but you don't go for grabs? what??

I said I don't go for grabs on spacies at 0%. I do go for grabs at other %'s and on non-spacies. Try reading what I say before responding, please. Not even gonna bother responding to the rest; you're clearly more interested in disagreement for the sake of disagreement. I use my strategy because I've experimented with others and this one gives me the best results. Think about that before you lecture me about how stupid it is.

How do you buffer a throw?

Use the C-stick during the grab animation. So for example if you hold C-up after pressing Z but before Puff actually grabs them, that will cause Puff to uthrow on the first possible frame (or second, I forget). *Only works with dthrow

 

[Keblerelf]

you can't buffer a throw, I've tried it. I would do a pummle and I'd hold the cstick up but it wouldn't throw.

Also have you beaten anyone good? That's the one way to determine if your method is getting the best results. If you haven't then you should welcome any sort of criticism. Why else would you post on a forum?

 

[Massive]

Use the C-stick during the grab animation. So for example if you hold C-up after pressing Z but before Puff actually grabs them, that will cause Puff to uthrow on the first possible frame (or second, I forget).

That's actually a novel way to throw asap that I didn't think of for whatever reason.

While it's not technically buffering, it is a first-possible-frame shortcut action, of which there are a very valuable few in melee.

 

[Fortune]

Use the C-stick during the grab animation. So for example if you hold C-up after pressing Z but before Puff actually grabs them, that will cause Puff to uthrow on the first possible frame (or second, I forget).

This does not work.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

This does not work.

I just tested it again in slo-mo and I'll have to amend my statement. It works for dthrow but not the other throws for whatever reason. I used to buffer dthrow back when I played Falcon, so I just assumed it worked for the other throws as well. I guess my timing on C-up for the uthrow is just coincidentally really good or something.

Also have you beaten anyone good? That's the one way to determine if your method is getting the best results. If you haven't then you should welcome any sort of criticism. Why else would you post on a forum?

YOU asked a question about uthrowing spacies at 0%, I answered and then added that my personal preference is to not go for grabs at 0% because I don't get much off of them. I'm not saying I wouldn't grab if some scrubby spacie dumped a free grab into my lap at 0%. I'm saying that actively creating grab opportunities vs. a spacie at 0% carries more risk (they have more tools to stuff it) and less reward (can't get anything better than an aerial) than at other %'s, so I don't bother to actively create grab opportunities at vs. spacies at 0%.

I admit I haven't been to a regional or stacked local in over a year, and the most noteworthy people I've beaten in recent memory are players like Anmex, Duff0, Gem, and Angel. Once upon a time I would take games off of players like Tai and Forward, but probably the only semi-known player I could consistently beat was Neon. I'm still not looking for criticism that's based on faulty assumptions (like the assumption that Puff can't create grab opportunities).

 

[Fortune]

unsubbed...

 

[Massive]

I just tested it again in slo-mo and I'll have to amend my statement. It works for dthrow but not the other throws for whatever reason. I used to buffer dthrow back when I played Falcon, so I just assumed it worked for the other throws as well. I guess my timing on C-up for the uthrow is just coincidentally really good or something.

You got my hopes up before i could get home to test it and dashed them quite expertly. Bravo sir.

 

[Mahone]

in regards to upthrow upair regrab:

it is not a true combo. It will work on 99% of people but it has never worked on the top players ive played, and I also always jump out of it.

I actually now wait for the jump and upair them instead of regrab cuz im a smartypants and it feels so sick when u hit it. I guess one issue with that would be that they could shine out, but i dont think most people do that and i would just adapt to that if they did.

I don't really like ur reasoning for not grabbing. I will agree that i usually try to hit one bair or something before getting the grab to ensure the rest will kill, but I think kebler has a good point about it having the opposite efffect... if everytime u are grabbing at 0, you upthrow upair or do some other throw, they will probably think that the risk reward for getting grabbed at low percents isnt that bad since u dont seem like the kind of puff to rest. Also, if ur playing the mu vs someone decent, getting a grab at 0 is RARE, so i dont think its worth giving up. Also, if u notice they di more horizontally to sdi and di the rest at 0, u can just mixup their di by turning around when u hit them, and then they can die at 0 from it very easily

i also think a reason its not as good to avoid rest at 0 is because honestly most people are weary of rest from puff regardless of what you do

 

[FerrishTheFish]

...if ur playing the mu vs someone decent, getting a grab at 0 is RARE, so i dont think its worth giving up.

You both are misinterpreting what I'm saying.

"I don't go for grabs vs. spacies at 0%."

DOES NOT MEAN

"I choose to not press A when a spacie is in landlag/cooldown/whatever in front of my shield if they are at 0%."

I was talking specifically about grabs as a strategy in a neutral-game situation vs. spacies, which I thought was contextually obvious given that right before that we were discussing grabs as a strategy in a neutral-game situation vs. Marth.* My point, which you apparently agree with, is that creating an opening for a grab against spacies at 0% is hard as **** except vs. scrubs. In a neutral game situation, I'm not going to put my energy toward something that difficult (and risky depending on my %) when I have easier and safer options that give me basically the same reward. THAT is what I mean when I say, "I don't go for grabs vs. spacies at 0%."

Obviously, I WILL GRAB if the opportunity presents itself regardless of % because I understand that a grab is one of the best punishes in the game.

* I guess I kinda assumed the LzR was talking about Marth based on his previous post, but that still doesn't change the grabs-in-neutral-game-situations context.

 

[Mahone]

yea i thought that might be what u were saying but i wasnt sure... I also don't space in a way to get grabs at 0 for the same reasons, so i agree with what u are saying

i do try to mix it up occasionally though, just to make myself less exploitable, so there are some times i space for and focus on getting a grab at 0, so it is important to discuss the combo tree at that percent

 

[Fortune]

I just wanna say that vs spacies if you grab at zero and throw them onto a platform, they will often land on the platform on their feet (no tech opportunity). If people are not super wary of their percent you can do this, jump up and waveland down, and regrab them. If they try to tech they will probably shield long enough that you can grab them. A nice trick.

 

[FlamingForce]

So how does one deal with falco's lasers? :\

I feel like I've tried everything honestly, I get laser > combo'd soooo often and it drives me up the damn wall because I feel like I can't do anything about them really.

If I try to go too high for lasers I usually can't really do much when I'm up there, coming down on falco feels really really risky and I almost always get cc or baired before I land or atleast punished for it in some way or another, Someone once told me to crouch under them but I've had very little succes with that as well because I just get daired for doing that and I don't really seem to have anything I can throw out while I'm crouching. I also get sniped while trying to go airborne very very often.

How does puff fight lasers, really?

 

[FerrishTheFish]

So how does one deal with falco's lasers? :\

You answered your own question in the post:

Someone once told me to crouch under them but I've had very little succes with that as well because I just get daired for doing that and I don't really seem to have anything I can throw out while I'm crouching.

You can't challenge lasers in the way I usually interpret the word 'challenge,' so your goal is to stop him from lasering in the first place. In your example, you crouched under them and (I assume) got close enough to make him nervous, so he stops lasering (mishaaawn compreat!) and starts trying to dair instead. It sounds like you just need to focus on that, tighten up your spacing and reactions to his approaches so you can make him stop lasering without putting yourself at too much risk.

Oh, I guess powershielding them when you crouch is good, too. (Personally, I can't do it.)

 

[FlamingForce]

Yeah but how do I not get daired when I get close, it always hits me even when I try WD out again

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Yeah but how do I not get daired when I get close, it always hits me even when I try WD out again

If that is the case, you're getting too close.

 

[Fortune]

Yeah but how do I not get daired when I get close, it always hits me even when I try WD out again

You're crouching because you think he'll laser. But, if you're close enough to him that he can dair you quickly, you're close enough to him that you can jump and hit him with an aerial before his laser comes out (if he does laser instead. If he does in fact do the dair, wavedash back out of crouch, or jump backwards and come back in with a safe aerial).

Basically, crouching a few lasers at distance is ok, but

1. you don't want to crouch right next to him because you give him free pressure.
2. you don't want to crouch lasers a lot because it means you're just giving up all your movement options.

Usually a laser should be crouched when you are on the ground and don't have time to jump over it. Right after that laser passes overhead, you almost always want to jump over the next one and play the aerial game. Because puff's short hop is so low, staying on falco's horizontal level will just get you lasered over and over.

What you want to do is get him on a platform and attack from below (uair(s) -> rest) or attack from above when he is on the ground (nair, dair).

 

[bolt.]

How do I grow a cool mang0puff?

 

[King5280]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6SB8DYp88MM
Me vs juggleguy at a recent tourney. Mu specific or general advice is appreciated. I definitely missed some punishes due to nerves but all in all didn't play too bad.

 

[Dr3amSm4sher]

Drill -> rest. Is this real? I theorized that if drill -> grab combos, drill -> rest should too. I tested a little bit in training mode and it looks like a combo.

Sorta, it is a true combo but it is really character dependent and hard to do. You have to space the dair so that the last hit before you touch the ground only hits their feet/lowest hurtbox. If you do so you put the other character into some weird spike spin animation (think falco doing shine to dair on fox at low percents) that is quite long and restable (the percent required to start such an animation is a little different for each character. Good news is that they all start at like 50, some are before that). The problem is that you must hit only the lowest one and nothing else. On short characters such as fox and pikachu this is much more difficult said then done. The other issue is that drill can be sdi'd out of. You can try to space for the just the last hit. Also drill moves the character slightly away from you possibly taking them away from rest but all the spike spin animations bring their body back in. If you get good at it though it is death from just landing a dair.

**Half of the characters in game can just randomly be rested from dair at 0 because how their body goes into jiggles after the dair. The timing is a little tougher but still death with some bad di especially if they expect the grab.

 

[BRUJO~]

What do you guys think about using rest against ic's? Obviously they have a guaranteed ko with their rest punish, but what do you think about just resting nana. Also, if you just rest popo, sometimes nana will wake you up. What do you think, is it ever worth it?

 

[Fortune]

Resting nana is great because she doesn't ever DI it (i'm fairly certain), and you can't get punished that hard afterwards by a solo popo.

Here's the next level situation though. Yoshi's Story. ICs up 2 stocks to 1 vs puff. Puff at ~20 percent. Puff rests nana. Genius IC player suicides with Popo, respawns with nana, and wobbles puff to death. GG.

 

[BEHR]

Curious.

What button do you guys use for jump?
What button do you guys use for aerials?

Thanks guys!

 

[BRUJO~]

Curious.

What button do you guys use for jump?
What button do you guys use for aerials?

Thanks guys!

I use x for jumping and a for aerials because i can quickly slide from x to a and to a bair as soon as i come off the ground.
Situationally this is bad because you can't completely control your aerial movement if you have to hold the control stick for your aerial, so when I'm trying to do a retreating bair or something similar, I will use the c stick

WIth that said, hbox uses tap jump and c stick for aerials, so you can do a variety of things

 

[BO/\K]

Curious.

What button do you guys use for jump?
What button do you guys use for aerials?

Thanks guys!

Claw. Index on Y for jump, thumb on C stick for aerials, thumb on A for nair. Middle finger on Z for grab (or L+A. I use L+A when I aerial or shield grab)

The most awkward part about learning claw was figuring out where to put my pinkie. I kept bending it down along the controller and that hurt. Now I rest it on the ridge behind the R button (I rest my ring finger on R since I use L to shielding and WDing)

I will say that all the hype around claw grip is true. Puff feels way better with it. I make way better use of Puffs aerial drift now.

I also play Fox but didn't find claw nearly as necessary on him as on Puff (although it probably still is better)

 

[me.gg]

But what are the Mango percentages?

 

[Frost | Odds]

When to time the L cancel on dair? :s

 

[GenNyan]

When to time the L cancel on dair? :s

Right before you hit the ground?

 

[Squirrell]

Curious.

What button do you guys use for jump?
What button do you guys use for aerials?

Thanks guys!

Y for jumps and C-stick for aerials. Out of curiosity, do people still use A for aerials?

 

[ThatOneGuyLucas]

Y for jumps and C-stick for aerials. Out of curiosity, do people still use A for aerials?

I actually still use A for aerials haha
But I use Y for jumps as well.

 

[ZipZopZoop]

Y for jumps, a for aerials, c stick for smash attacks and falling uair.