Mad Scienstein: Combos, Concepts and Creativity

[TheReflexWonder]

Absolutely! This is something I'd been thinking about doing for a little while, but my Spanish is still very much a work-in-progress. You're more than welcome to translate and/or post it as you please so long as the source is given credit. Hell, I'll put that link in the OP.

 

[KuchiiMaw]

So, I finished translating all the info in the OP, if you want to see how it went, you know where to look it up! (...or not? Anyways, here: http://smashbrosspain.com/foro/viewtopic.php?f=217&t=8381&p=177306#p177306)

Now, to make the post even more information-y I decided to translate some other posts of interest of this thread (f. ex., post #23 where you talk about the options when riding the bike).

Another thing I'm working on is a chart with the %s when F-Air puts the opponent into tumble (maybe it doesn't sound that useful, but the more you know), to help me see when I can try to do a cool lock I got one time a while ago. I'll post said chart here when it's done, if you don't mind!

Hope this thread gets more attention and info in the future, because I love every bit of data I got from here that helped my Wario knowledge grow!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I have something I want to test that may or may not be very practical.

During Forward-B's startup (Frames 4-8, maybe 4-9), the Bike appears below Wario and Wario rises up. This hop can avoid moves and can be used both on the ground and when landing. The Bike gains a hurtbox starting on Frame 4 (it starts very small and grows to normal size), and as long as the opponent's attack deals less than 18%, you will both experience hitlag but Wario will continue his startup afterward. Since the Bike starts hitting on Frame 20, most attacks have too much cooldown to avoid punishment in that scenario, and you have access to both a damaging option (normal hit -> Wheelie for 19%) and a reasonable KO option (the turnaround skid, which is significantly improved by Rage).

I only tested it a bit yesterday, but on the ground, the startup animation avoided a number of D-Tilts (Little Mac, ZSS, Bayonetta, Meta Knight) and D-Smashes (Mario, Little Mac) at any distance. I'll do more testing soon and make a chart on that.

Also, there appears to be some weird properties involved with getting hit on Forward-B startup. For example, if someone breaks the Bike but doesn't hit Wario, Wario is frozen in what looks like a frame of his normal fall animation for the length of the hitlag, and then he can move like normal in neutral. Also, there appears to be a low knockback value (and maybe angle) where a low-damage Wario getting hit off the Bike will cause him to fall off in the same way as crashing into a wall. Normally a Mac D-Smash at 0% would send you away a bit, but getting hit on Forward-B startup just causes you to faux-crash.

 

[KuchiiMaw]

Now that's something interesting to get to consideration when using the Bike, hoping to see that chart soon.

About the Side-B startup properties, I'm curious about which percentatges and/or knockback values make Wario fall out of the bike like that (I stumbled with that situation a couple of times, seemingly caused by weak/low knockback attacks).

 

[Waroh]

I've had Wario not take the bike explosion knockback and land normally from a KO punch and during a witch time, so I assumed it was a slow motion quirk. Seems there is more to it, though.

Also, Wario can dodge Pikachu's dash grab and standing grab with a well timed bike. Not sure if this is true for any other character.

 

[Boost4u]

I've also experienced a weird quirk where I accidentally biked into a ROB fsmash at high percents, but I got sent at an angle that allowed me to tech and when I did, I was sent at a horizontal angle, but I lived. Same thing happened vs. A Dr. Mario fsmash. Now this is like in the 130% range, where fsmashes should cleanly kill me.

Not sure if this is useful, but it happened twice and saved my life. I just don't know how to replicate it.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I tested all the D-Tilts and D-Smashes against that Bike startup window (Frames 4-8 after all). Surprising how not-high some of these hitboxes actually are:

Spoiler: Moves avoidable by Forward-B startup

Bayonetta: D-Tilt
Bowser: D-Tilt1 (don't try it)
Bowser Jr.: D-Tilt1 (don't try it)
Captain Falcon: None
Charizard: D-Tilt
Cloud: D-Tilt, D-Smash
Corrin: D-Tilt
Dark Pit: D-Tilt, D-Smash
Diddy Kong: D-Tilt
Donkey Kong: D-Tilt
Dr. Mario: D-Tilt, D-Smash
Duck Hunt: D-Tilt
Falco: D-Tilt, D-Smash
Fox: D-Tilt, D-Smash
Ganondorf: None
Greninja: D-Tilt, D-Smash
Ike: D-Tilt, D-Smash
Jigglypuff: D-Tilt, D-Smash
King Dedede: None
Kirby: D-Tilt, D-Smash1 (sourspot still hits)
Link: D-Tilt, D-Smash
Little Mac: D-Tilt, D-Smash
Lucario: D-Tilt
Lucas: D-Tilt
Lucina: D-Tilt, D-Smash
Luigi: D-Tilt, D-Smash
Mario: D-Tilt, D-Smash
Marth: D-Tilt, D-Smash
Mega Man: D-Tilt
Meta Knight: D-Tilt, D-Smash
Mewtwo: D-Tilt
Mii Brawler: D-Tilt
Mii Gunner: D-Tilt
Mii Swordfighter: D-Tilt, D-Smash
Mr. Game and Watch: D-Tilt
Ness: D-Tilt (even repeatedly)
Olimar: D-Smash
Pac-Man: None
Palutena: D-Tilt
Peach: D-Tilt
Pikachu: D-Tilt
Pit: D-Tilt, D-Smash
R.O.B.: D-Tilt
Robin: None
Rosalina: D-Smash (Rosalina only)
Roy: D-Tilt, D-Smash (only at a distance)
Ryu: D-Tilt (both versions), D-Smash
Samus: D-Smash
Sheik: D-Tilt
Shulk: D-Tilt, D-Smash1 (don't try it)
Sonic: D-Tilt, D-Smash
Toon Link: D-Tilt, D-Smash
Villager: D-Smash
Wario: D-Tilt
Wii Fit Trainer: D-Tilt, D-Smash
Yoshi: D-Tilt, D-Smash
Zelda: D-Tilt, D-Smash
Zero Suit Samus: D-Tilt

Also, we should probably consider the lean-back property on F-Tilt, F-Smash, and Forward-B in general. Many moves that seem virtually unpunishable, such as Sonic/Meta Knight F-Smash, can be avoided by the startup of these moves and punished if well-spaced. All three moves lean back slightly on Frame 1. F-Smash leans back significantly on Frame 2 up to right before your attack comes out. Forward-B has the little hop on Frames 4-8 and can be done out of a run/while in the air. Next time one of those characters charges an F-Smash in your face, try walking up to them and using one of these moves at the edge of their range.

 

[Adrian Marin]

Wario can also armor through Sheik's needles by using the bike before landing. For some reason, the needles will hit Wario if the bike is used on the ground. For thoae that are confused by the knockback alteration, I believe it occurs when Wario's bike is destroyed while Wario is riding it. My hypothesis is that Wario's bike alters knockback arcs (similar to vectoring) if the bike is destroyed during a wheelie or turn animation.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Sheik's Needles being stopped by the Bike you ride without you getting hit is basically luck-based; they travel a good distance per frame, so if that distance is enough to go from not hitting the Bike to overlapping Wario in a frame, he'll get hit. That said, I believe the few frames before Wario gets on the Bike block them more often than usual, and you can SDI away to avoid multiple hits; the Bike will eat the rest.

 

[Triburos]

I'd like to ask a question about optimal actions after tossing a relatively high percentage opponent off the side of the edge.

Would you guys either attempt to follow them, or would you take the time to eat some bike parts and get some Waft charge up?

After some practice I've been able to eat 4-5 bike parts in just over 4 seconds, (4.3~4.5) counting from as soon as I ledge cancel my Bike. If I'm not mistake, this results in about 6 to 7.5 seconds of Waft time shaved off. Which isn't bad especially if you're looking for a half Waft. My own personal method is Soft U-Throw > Full Hop Uair > Fastfall > Bite on bike ground impact.

With my own personal best timing, I can get to half Waft in about 6 Bike Buffets. Of course this won't happen in a real game, it's just to show how much a single bike can do for your Waft time.

So say the opponent is at relatively high percentages and I get a grab at middle stage. Say I B-toss them to the left end of the stage. Should you chase or should you go to the opposite end and try to shave off some of your Waft time?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

With the 1.1.1 patch's shield changes, U-Air became a much safer move on shield. U-Air has 12 frames of endlag and has significant shieldstun; if you hit a shield with U-Air on the frame before you hit the ground, frame advantage is -3. Because a perfect shield reduces the defender's shieldstun by 25%, a perfect shielded U-Air in the same scenario has -5 frame advantage. Wario's frame data on most options is below-average, but a spotdodge will outspeed all shieldgrab attempts without a powershield and many with a powershield.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a reliable setup to buffer a U-Air close to the ground, so timing it well will just take practice. Luckily, there is leeway against many of the slower grabs. I'm gonna try to make a list showing what characters are most susceptible and which characters can be punished even after the latest spotdodge possible.

Of course, this is least effective against many of our worst matchups, but it is definitely worth considering in some of them!

Spoiler: Safety of landing U-Air vs. shieldgrabs

Bayonetta: One frame of leeway on shield. Can't spotdodge after perfect shield.

0 on latest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt beats attacks but loses to counters. Wario Neutral-B beats Jab and counters but loses to D-Tilt and U-Tilt.

+1 on earliest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt beats attacks but loses to counters. Wario Neutral-B loses to D-Tilt but beats everything else.



Bowser: Three frames of leeway on shield. Can spotdodge after perfect shield.

+5 on latest spotdodge. Punish with D-Tilt, Neutral-B, or Down-B (half charge).

+9 on earliest spotdodge. Punish with D-Tilt, D-Smash, grabs, Neutral-B, Up-B, or Down-B (half and full charge). You can actually D-Tilt before Bowser can shieldgrab.



Bowser Jr.: Six frames of leeway on shield. Can spotdodge after perfect shield.

-1 on latest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt loses to Jab and D-Tilt.

+6 on earliest spotdodge. Punish with D-Tilt, grabs, Neutral-B, Up-B, or Down-B (half charge).

Captain Falcon: One frame of leeway on shield. Can't spotdodge after perfect shield.

0 on latest spotdodge. Watch for Jab and grabs (including Up-B).

+1 on earliest spotdodge. Watch for Jab and grabs (including Up-B).



Charizard: Two frames of leeway on shield. Can spotdodge after perfect shield.

+2 on latest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt beats attacks and rolls but loses to shield. Wario grabs beat shield.

+4 on earliest spotdodge. Wario Neutral-B beats attacks and shield. Wario D-Tilt beats attacks and rolls but loses to shield.


Cloud: One frame of leeway on shield. Can't spotdodge after perfect shield.

+1 on latest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt trades with Jab. Wario grabs beat shield but lose to attacks.

+2 on earliest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt beats attacks but loses to shield. Wario grabs beat shield but lose to attacks.


Corrin: One frame of leeway on shield. Can't spotdodge after perfect shield.

0 on latest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt trades with Jab and D-Tilt. Wario D-Tilt will not activate Down-B.

+1 on earliest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt beats attacks. Wario grabs beat shield but lose to attacks. Wario D-Tilt will not activate Down-B.


Dark Pit: Zero frames of leeway on shield. Can't spotdodge after perfect shield.

0 on spotdodge. Be on your guard. Wario D-Tilt trades with Jab and D-Smash. Wario grabs beat shield but lose to attacks.


Diddy Kong: Zero frames of leeway on shield. Can't spotdodge after perfect shield.

+2 on spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt trades with Jab1 and beats other attacks. Wario grabs beat shield but lose to attacks.


Donkey Kong: Two frames of leeway on shield. Can spotdodge after perfect shield.

-1 on latest spotdodge. Be careful. Wario D-Tilt loses to Jab1 and U-Tilt.

+1 on earliest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt beats pokes but loses to immediate pivot grab and shield. Grabs beat shield but lose to attacks.


Dr. Mario: Zero frames of leeway on shield. Can't spotdodge after perfect shield.

-1 on spotdodge. Wario pokes lose to Mario pokes. Perfect shield into a punish or get away.


Duck Hunt: Two frames of leeway on shield. Can spotdodge after perfect shield.

-3 on latest spotdodge. Wario pokes lose to Duck Hunt pokes. Perfect shield into a punish or get away.

-1 on latest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt loses to Jab and trades with D-Tilt.


Falco: Two frames of leeway on shield. Can spotdodge after perfect shield.

0 on latest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt loses to Jab and trades with U-Tilt. Wario grabs beat shield but lose to attacks and rolls.

+2 on earliest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt trades with Jab and beats other pokes. Wario grabs beat shield but lose to attacks.


Fox: Zero frames of leeway on shield. Can't spotdodge after perfect shield.

-1 on spotdodge. Wario pokes lose to Fox pokes. Perfect shield into a punish or get away.


Ganondorf: One frame of leeway on shield. Can't spotdodge after perfect shield.

+5 on latest spotdodge. Punish with D-Tilt, grabs, Neutral-B, or Down-B (half charge).

+6 on earliest spotdodge. Punish with D-Tilt grabs, Neutral-B, Up-B, or Down-B (half charge).


Greninja: Eight frames of leeway on shield. Can spotdodge and even D-Tilt instead after perfect shield. Follow up a U-Air with D-Tilt or a roll instead of a spotdodge.

-9 on latest spotdodge. You should be ashamed of yourself.

-1 on earliest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt loses to Jab and D-Tilt.


Ike: One frame of leeway on shield. Can't spotdodge after perfect shield.

+2 on latest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt beats Jab. Wario grabs beat shield but lose to Jab.

+3 on earliest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt beats Jab. Wario grabs beat shield but lose to Jab.


Jigglypuff: Zero frames of leeway on shield. Can't spotdodge after perfect shield.

-3 on spotdodge. Wario pokes lose to Jigglypuff Jab. Perfect shield into a punish or get away.


King Dedede: One frame of leeway on shield. Can't spotdodge after perfect shield.

+5 on latest spotdodge. Punish with D-Tilt, grabs, Neutral-B, or Down-B (half charge).

+6 on earliest spotdodge. Punish with D-Tilt, grabs, Neutral-B, Up-B, or Down-B (half charge).


Kirby: Zero frames of leeway on shield. Can't spotdodge after perfect shield.

-2 on spotdodge. Wario pokes lose to Kirby Jab and tilts. Perfect shield into a punish or get away.


Link: Six frames of leeway on shield. Can spotdodge after perfect shield.

+26 on earliest spotdodge. Punish with whatever you want.

+32 on latest spotdodge. Punish with whatever you want.


Little Mac: Three frames of leeway on shield. Can spotdodge after perfect shield.

0 on latest spotdodge. Wario pokes lose to Mac pokes. Perfect shield to punish or get away.

+3 on earliest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt trades with Mac Jab. Wario grabs beat shield but lose to attacks and rolls.


Lucario: Zero frames of leeway on shield. Can't spotdodge after perfect shield.

-1 on spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt trades with Jab1. Wario grabs beat shield but lose to attacks and grab.


Lucas: Six frames of leeway on shield. Can spotdodge after perfect shield.

+10 on latest spotdodge. Punish with D-Tilt, D-Smash, N-Air, grabs, Neutral-B, Up-B, or Down-B (half and full charge).

+16 on earliest spotdodge. Punish with F-Tilt, D-Tilt, U-Smash, D-Smash, N-Air, B-Air, D-Air, grabs, Neutral-B, Up-B, or Down-B (half and full charge).


Lucina: One frame of leeway on shield. Can't spotdodge after perfect shield.

-1 on latest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt loses to Jab and trades with U-Tilt/D-Smash. Perfect shield to punish or get away.

0 on earliest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt trades with Jab and beats other pokes. Watch out for Up-B.


Luigi: Zero frames of leeway on shield. Can't spotdodge after perfect shield.

-1 on spotdodge. Wario pokes lose to Luigi pokes. Powershield to punish or get away.


Mario: Zero frames of leeway on shield. Can't spotdodge after perfect shield.

-1 on spotdodge. Wario pokes lose to Mario pokes. Perfect shield into a punish or get away.


Marth: One frame of leeway on shield. Can't spotdodge after perfect shield.

-1 on latest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt loses to Jab and trades with U-Tilt/D-Smash. Perfect shield to punish or get away.

0 on earliest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt trades with Jab and beats other pokes. Watch out for Up-B.


Mega Man: Zero frames of leeway on shield. Can't spotdodge after perfect shield.

+1 on spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt beats pokes. Wario grabs beat shield but lose to attacks and grab.


Meta Knight: One frame of leeway on shield. Can't spotdodge after perfect shield.

+1 on latest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt loses to D-Tilt and trades with D-Smash. Powershield to punish or get away.

+2 on earliest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt trades with D-Tilt. Wario grabs beat shield but lose to attacks and rolls.


Mewtwo: One frame of leeway on shield. Can’t spotdodge after perfect shield.

+5 on latest spotdodge. Punish with D-Tilt, Neutral-B (hold to beat spotdodge), or Down-B (half charge).

+6 on earliest spotdodge. Punish with D-Tilt, Neutral-B, Up-B, or Down-B (half charge)


Mii Brawler (Guest size): Zero frames of leeway on shield. Can’t spotdodge after perfect shield.

0 on spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt loses to Jab.


Mii Gunner (Guest size): Zero frames of leeway on shield. Can’t spotdodge after perfect shield.

-1 on spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt loses to Jab and trades with U-Tilt.


Mii Swordfighter (Guest size): Zero frames of leeway on shield. Can’t spotdodge after perfect shield.

-1 on spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt loses to D-Tilt, trades with Jab, and activates Down-B1.


Mr. Game and Watch: Zero frames of leeway on shield. Can’t spotdodge after perfect shield.

0 on spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt loses to Jab and trades with D-Tilt.


Ness: Zero frames of leeway on shield. Can’t spotdodge after perfect shield.

+5 on spotdodge. Punish with D-Tilt, Neutral-B (hold to beat spotdodge), or Down-B (half charge).


Olimar: Four frames of leeway on shield. Can spotdodge after perfect shield.

+11 on latest spotdodge. Punish with D-Tilt, D-Smash, N-Air, Neutral-B, Up-B, or Down-B (half and full charge).

+~18 on earliest spotdodge. Punish with anything but F-Smash.


Pac-Man: Six frames of leeway on shield. Can spotdodge after perfect shield.

+40 on latest spotdodge. Punish with whatever you want.

+46 on earliest spotdodge. Punish with whatever you want.


Palutena: One frame of leeway on shield. Can’t spotdodge after perfect shield.

+1 on latest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt beats Palutena pokes. Wario grabs beat shield and attacks.

+2 on earliest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt beats Palutena pokes. Wario grabs beat shield and attacks.


Peach: Zero frames of leeway on shield. Can’t spotdodge after perfect shield.

+2 on spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt loses to Jab. Standing grab loses to D-Smash.


Pikachu: Zero frames of leeway on shield. Can’t spotdodge after perfect shield.

-2 on spotdodge. Wario is always punished by Jab. Don’t do it!


Pit: Zero frames of leeway on shield. Can't spotdodge after perfect shield.

0 on spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt trades with Jab and D-Smash. Wario grabs beat shield but lose to attacks.


R.O.B.: One frame of leeway on shield. Can’t spotdodge after perfect shield.

0 on latest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt loses to Jab and D-Tilt. Perfect shield to punish or get away.

+1 on earliest spotoddge. Wario D-Tilt trades with Jab and D-Tilt.


Robin: One frame of leeway on shield. Can’t spotdodge after perfect shield.

+9 on latest spotdodge. Punish with D-Tilt, D-Smash, Neutral-B, Up-B, or Down-B (half and full charge).

+10 on earliest spotdodge. Punish with D-Tilt, D-Smash, N-Air, Neutral-B, Up-B, or Down-B (half and full charge).


Rosalina and Luma: Zero frames of leeway on shield. Can’t spotdodge after perfect shield.

+6 on spotdodge. Punish with Dash Attack, D-Tilt, Up-B, or Down-B (half charge).


Roy: One frame of leeway on shield. Can’t spotdodge after perfect shield.

-1 on latest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt loses to Jab and trades with U-Tilt.

0 on earliest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt trades with Jab.


Ryu: Zero frames of leeway on shield. Can’t spotdodge after perfect shield.

0 on spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt loses to Jab, light U-Tilt, light D-Tilt, and Up-B. Perfect shield to punish or get away.


Samus: Ten frames of leeway on shield. Can’t spotdodge after perfect shield.

+36 on latest spotdodge. Punish with whatever you want.

+~44 on earliest spotdodge. Punish with whatever you want.


Sheik: Zero frames of leeway on shield. Can’t spotdodge after perfect shield.

-2 on spotdodge. Wario is always punished by Jab. Don’t do it.


Shulk: One frame of leeway on shield. Can’t spotdodge after perfect shield.

-1 on latest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt loses to Jab. Perfect shield to punish or get away.

0 on earliest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt trades with Jab.


Sonic: Zero frames of leeway on shield. Can’t spotdodge after perfect shield.

+1 on spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt loses to Jab.


Toon Link: Six frames of leeway on shield. Can spotdodge after perfect shield.

+26 on latest spotdodge. Punish with whatever you want.

+32 on earliest spotdodge. Punish with whatever you want.


Villager: Nine frames of leeway on shield. Can spotdodge after perfect shield.

+17 on latest spotdodge. Punish with anything but F-Smash.

+26 on earliest spotdodge. Punish with whatever you want.


Wario: Two frames of leeway on shield. Can spotdodge after perfect shield.

-2 on latest spotdodge. His D-Tilt beats your D-Tilt.

0 on earliest spotdodge. Good luck!


Wii Fit Trainer: Zero frames of leeway on shield. Can’t spotdodge after perfect shield.

-1 on spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt loses to Jab and trades with F-Tilt. Perfect shield to punish or get away.


Yoshi: Eight frames of leeway on shield. Can spotdodge after perfect shield.

+18 on latest spotdodge. Punish with anything but F-Smash.

+26 on earliest spotdodge. Punish with whatever you want.


Zelda: Four frames of leeway on shield. Can spotdodge after perfect shield.

+4 on latest spotdodge. Wario D-Tilt beats pokes.

+8 on earliest spotdodge. Punish with D-Tilt, D-Smash, grabs, Neutral-B, Up-B, or Down-B (half charge).


Zero Suit Samus: Ten frames of leeway on shield. Can spotdodge after perfect shield.

+29 on latest spotdodge. Punish with whatever you want.

+39 on earliest spotdodge. Punish with whatever you want.

 

[Roots]

I did a thing on Sourspot Fair combos (High Percent +90%)

Spoiler: Sourspot Fair True Combos

Sourspot Fair (Frame 7 - 17)

Earliest True Combos (Mario)

-> Frame 4 Nair (90% - 135%) with jump (135% - 200%)
-> Frame 5 Fair (100% - 135%) with jump (135% - 220%)
-> Frame 6 Cork (NaN% - NaN%) with jump (NaN% - NaN%)
-> Frame 8 Bite (NaN% - NaN%) with jump (NaN% - NaN%)
-> Frame 8 Uair (120% - 165%) with jump (165% - 200%)
-> Frame 9 Dair (NaN% - NaN%) with jump (140% - 170%)
-> Frame 9 Bair (NaN% - NaN%) with jump (165% - 210%)*

(NaN = Could not get to connect or true combo)

-Half Waft similar to Fair ranges
-Full Waft similar to Dair ranges

The maximums of these percents don’t matter much. The important parts are when the follow-ups begin to true combo.

Factors that can ensure performance these true combos
- Hit closest to last frame of SS Fair as possible (Frame 17)
- Be as close to opponent as possible during hit
- Be able to follow the opponent’s movement

At early ranges, hitting the last frame is most important
At later ranges, being able to follow the opponent is most important

Due to DI, the much higher percent combos will not work when opponents DI away from you
(but then again, why would anyone DI away when they are at such an absurdly high percent)

* Requires spawned bike to preform

And a video showcasing them, just because its fun to make videos

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Earlier percents would make it so they can't DI at all (can't DI if not being put into tumble). Just something to consider.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Tumble Percents and Wario's Aerials

Spoiler: Description of Knockback Types and KB Formula

I feel this is loooooong overdue for the Wario boards. For those of you who don't know, there is a hitstun formula on the boards here [credit to Strong Badam ]. Edit: Credit to Magus. (My b)

For set knockback it's:
{{[(WDSK * 10 * 0.05) + 1] * VictimKBMultB * 1.4 * [200 / (Weight + 100)] + 18} * (KBG * 0.01)} + BKB

WDSK=Weight Dependent Set Knockback. You can find these values on Kuroganehammer's website usually denoted as "W:" before the WDSK value. An example of this is hits 1-6 of Wario's D-air. The final hit 7 is normal KB. It's around the boards somewhere (should be on the OP), but just if you don't know, WDSK scales with rage. It's why D-air to Half Waft will only truly combo on some characters with rage.

For normal KB it's:
{{[(Total Damage * 0.1) + (Damage * Total Damage * 0.05)] * VictimKBMultB * 1.4 * [200 / (Weight + 100)] + 18} * (KBG * 0.01)} + BKB=Total KB

VictimKBMultB= always 1. Total Damage is the % the opponent has after you've inflicted percent to them. For example, if you Sweetspot Fair a Mario at 46% (Damage=7, Total Damage=53, Weight=98, KBG=97, BKB=30), the total KB will equal 80.1 kb. Note: this is the melee formula that does not account for the 1.05x freshness damage bonus in Smash Wii U.

It is important to note that 80 KB=tumble. What I did for Wario's attacks was just set the equation equal to 80 Total KB and solved for Total Damage using Excel and then subtracted the Damage that Wario's aerial does from the calculated Total Damage to determine tumble %.

When trying to understand how a character's move is to be utilized, I like to know at what percents a move sends the opponent into tumble, because I believe that tumble percents are one of the main things considered when giving a move certain BKB and KBG. If a tumble percent value is high or low can tell you tons of information. Just because a tumble % for a certain move is high, does not at all mean it's useless until that percent.

Spoiler: Tumble %s for Wario's Aerials

Note: Sourspot N-air sends all characters into tumble at 0%. Also, Values were calculated using the melee hitstun formula that does not account for the 1.05x freshness bonus or stale-move negation. What this means is that values on this list might be off slightly. These values are accurate for training mode which negates all damage modifications. However, these values present a decent average between a perfectly fresh move's tumble % and a 1x staled move's tumble %.

Character |N-air (Sweetspot 6.5%) | U-air | F-air (sweetspot 7%, sourspot 4.5%) | B-air | D-air

Bayonetta|43| 28|42, 124|28|10

Bowser|55|38|54, 154|37|14

Bowser Jr.|50|33| 49, 141| 33|12

C. Falcon| 49| 32| 48, 138| 32| 12

Charizard|52| 35| 51, 145| 35| 13

Cloud| 48| 31| 47, 135| 31| 11

Corrin| 47| 31| 46, 134| 31| 11

Dark Pit|47| 31| 46, 132| 31| 11

Diddy Kong|46| 30| 45, 130| 30| 11

Donkey Kong|54| 36| 53, 150| 36| 14

Dr. Mario|47| 31| 46, 134| 31| 11

Duck Hunt|45| 29| 44, 129| 29| 10

Falco|43| 27| 42, 123| 28| 9

Fox|42| 27 |41, 120| 27| 9

Ganondorf|51| 34| 50, 144| 34| 13

Greninja|46| 30| 45, 131| 30| 11

Ike|50| 33| 49, 140| 33| 12

Jigglypuff|39| 24| 38, 113| 25| 8

King Dedede|53| 36| 52, 148| 35| 13

Kirby|42| 27| 41, 120| 27| 9

Link|49| 32| 48, 138| 32| 12

Little Mac|43| 27| 42, 123| 28| 9

Lucario|48| 31| 46, 134| 31 |11

Lucas|46| 30| 45, 131| 30| 11

Lucina|45| 29| 44, 128| 29| 10

Character |N-air (Sweetspot 6.5%) | U-air | F-air (sweetspot 7%, sourspot 4.5%) | B-air | D-air

Luigi|47| 31| 46, 133| 31| 11

Mario|47| 31| 46, 134| 31| 11

Marth|45| 29| 44, 128| 29| 10

Megaman|48| 32| 47, 136| 32| 12

Meta Knight|42| 27| 41, 121| 27| 9

Mewtwo|40| 25| 39, 116| 25| 8

Mii|48| 31| 47, 135| 31| 11

Mr. Game and Watch|41| 26| 40, 118| 26| 8

Ness|46| 30| 45, 131| 30| 11

Olimar|42| 27| 41, 120| 27| 9

Pac-man|46| 30| 45, 132| 30| 11

Palutena|45| 29| 44, 129| 29| 10

Peach|45| 29| 44, 127| 29| 10|

Pikachu|42| 27| 41, 120| 27| 9

Pit|47| 31| 46, 132| 31| 11

R.O.B.|49| 33| 48, 139| 33| 12

Robin|46| 30| 45, 132| 30| 11

Rosalina and Luma|42| 26| 41, 119| 26| 9

Roy|46| 30| 45, 132| 30| 11

Ryu|49| 32| 48, 137| 32| 12

Samus|50| 33| 49, 141| 33| 12

Sheik|43| 28| 42, 124| 28| 10

Shulk|48| 32| 47, 136| 32| 12

Sonic|46| 30| 45, 131| 30| 11

Toon Link|46| 30| 45, 130| 30| 11

Villager|47| 31| 46, 133| 31| 11

Wario|50| 33| 49, 140| 33| 12

Wii Fit Trainer|47| 31| 46, 132| 31| 11

Yoshi|49| 32| 48, 138| 32| 12

Zelda|44| 28| 43, 125| 28| 10

Zero Suit Samus|42 |27 |41, 121| 27| 9

Character |N-air (Sweetspot 6.5%) | U-air | F-air (sweetspot 7%, sourspot 4.5%) | B-air | D-air

 

[Strong Badam]

I have no knowledge of Smash Wii U's KB formula and whether it matches Brawl & Melee's. If a Wii U scientist has, then okay, but I would just like to say that I haven't stated such.

 

[KuchiiMaw]

Good work with that chart, if that formula is actually Smash4's too (I don't really know). It would be great to have the %s where the aerials put into tumble with 50%, 100% and Max Rage (150%) too; I suppose the percentatges in this chart are the %s where the aerials put into tumble with no rage.

I was doing (not finished though) a chart with %s where a fresh F-Air puts into tumble at 0, 50, 100, and 150, and well, the percentatges on your chart are very similar to the ones I got (like ZSS getting into tumble at 40% instead of your 41% with no rage, but still, very close numbers).

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Strong Badam I tested all of Wario's aerials on Jigglypuff and Bowser before posting the chart and everything checks out. The formula does apply to smash 4. To be honest, I'm not actually sure you discovered the formula, but wasn't sure and didn't want to just post without giving credit lol.

KuchiiMaw I checked in-game and F-air definitely puts ZSS into tumble at 41% with no rage. Your value might be incorrect if you didn't round all your final values upwards. Keep in mind, if you set the formula to 80 and do everything right and your calculated value is 40.001, then 40% is not enough to put ZSS into tumble even though it is closer to the value you got than 41 is. I'm not sure if the game has invisible decimal values, so I just assumed it works only with integers and rounds. Also I tested everything in training mode, which puts characters at perfect integer values. Aside from that, I think even the chart I have is impractical to extent and rage values would be more impractical to actually attempt to memorize. I think most people could get the most out of a chart like this by memorizing percents for Mario and trying to get a good intuition of when to use a move. I think 10+ dair, 30+ bair+U-air, and 45+ Fair+Nair is another way of looking at it. That being said, rage percents play a great role in d-air to waft and would probably be more meaningful for that.

By the way, just in case anyone doesn't notice, F-air and N-air have nearly identical tumble percents, and so do B-air and U-air.

 

[Strong Badam]

Magus discovered the formula, I made the spreadsheet and released it to the public.

 

[KuchiiMaw]

[...]I tested everything in training mode[...]

Here is why I get 40% and you 41, and the problem (and also solution) to all this: To test things, you should do it in the Smash Mode (like Reflex said, using Handicap and such), because in Training Mode there is no rage nor "stalliness" on the moves. In a real match, a fresh move is actually 1.05x stronger than the frame data tells; in Training Mode the values keep the 1.0x multiplier.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

KuchiiMaw Oh, I completely forgot about that lol. I'll mention/edit that information in the post, so people are aware. That being said, I really don't want to re-calculate everything. After all, I think it's all best used intuitively, not memorized. And let's be honest here, what Wario player's f-air is going to be completely unstaled? xD

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Wario's Amazing Forward Smash

Up to this point, Wario's F-smash has not been utilized in his typical game play and is certainly not seen in most matches. What if I told you, that is all about to change? One thing I always noticed from watching Ike player Ryo's matches was how he typically saved his smashes in situations where they'd go unpunished and could be best utilized (for example, punishing hasty ledge decisions, covering platforms, etc.). In the past, I've punished spot-dodges with f-smash or to counter certain attacks with the hurtbox drawback it has, but that wasn't really a consistent nor safe way to make the move fit its optimal purpose.

Wario's F-smash is active frame 18-19. A missed tech leaves an opponent vulnerable from frames 1-26. A tech in place leaves an opponent vulnerable from frames 21-26. What this means, is that if you shoot to f-smash the opponent during frames 21-26 after landing, you can successfully cover both landing options (missed tech and tech-in-place) due to an overlap in spatial positioning and vulnerability frames. This is one reason the Wario Bike is so good at covering multiple options (can cover all 4 options if positioned/timed right; frame 20 start-up). So, if Wario is free to act, and is at a close ranged position to punish someone being forced to land while in tumble, he can effectively F-smash right when the opponent lands to punish their tech-in-place or missed tech.

How might this set-up be achieved? To where Wario can be free to act while the opponent is still in tumble, and better yet, be right next to him? The F-smash option coverage idea was on my mind for a about a week, and I did not know what to do with it until I saw one of Reflex's matches to where he N-aired an opponent right past tumble percent and they landed next to him with a missed tech. Sweet-spot N-air, comes out frame 4, has low hitlag, and has a DI-away=best DI format, making it extremely hard to DI. I've theorized that because of it's low angle, it could possibly be a very hard move to tech depending on the situation/character being hit (that, and people might expect to get hit by the sourspot and not try to tech). The effect of this move is very reminiscent of Jigglypuff's N-air/F-air in SSBM which can lead to F-smash or jab reset rest.

This essentially means that Wario is now able to sweetspot N-air opponents at high percents! Against Mario in training mode, without any DI, 60% is where N-air barely stops connecting to its sourspot when you initiate it as close as possible and 80% is the limit at which Mario will land outside of Wario's F-smash range, again with no DI. If the opponent DI's inwards, this can be done at even higher percents, but it will be likely that they tech the ground in some way. Wario's options for tech rolls I feel can be optimized more, but for now I'd say dash attack/short hop waft/Bike are the best ways to punish a tech roll. While I personally prefer N-air, this can also be achieved with F-air. The percent ceiling on N-air is slightly higher than F-air due to sweetspot N-air being slightly weaker. If you recall from my previous post, Sweetspot N-air and F-air have almost identical BKB, KBG, and damage.

If you missed the F-smash due to the opponent tech rolling towards you or away, and you, say, F-smashed to cover frames 21-22, your frame disadvantage after the opponent's normal 40 frame tech roll would be -26 with them being distanced from you (F-smash's IASA is at an abysmal frame 66) . It's not that bad considering Forward Smash is -34 on shield, probably worse on spot-dodge, and in both cases the opponent is right next to you. Plus, if you N-air the opponent over to the edge of the stage, F-smash will cover tech roll away as well, and they might get KO'd earlier with poor DI! (Then you buffer a well-earned taunt). One major point I should stress is the confidence/commitment this approach requires. It is a read based on your belief that they will tech/not tech to your advantage due to the nature of Wario's N-air and their positioning. The smash must be done preemptively. Alternatively, D-smash is another viable option one can choose for it's long active frames (and semi-spike ability), and the fact one can react to the opponent's tech-in-place, missed tech, or tech roll when executing. In the case of tech roll, one shouldn't use d-smash unless positioned correctly.

Spoiler: How To Use Wario's F-smash Optimally

This is me and my friendly rival, Rogue_Penguin (currently the best Mario in Florida). I'm glad I got this on him more than anyone since it 1. shows how stupid a normal match between him and I looks, 2. I used to think Mario was an impossible match-up and *used* to meme about my hate for Mario (I actually think he's not as ridiculous anymore), and 3. this was the first time I ever attempted N-air followed by a preemptive F-smash.

Skip to the very end to see just the setup.

Consider that I had the worst positioning possible for the set-up: F-smashed from center stage the stage, very little rage, and Mario was only at 65% when he got N-aired. Quite literally, this is the worst possible successful execution of this newly found sequence, and of course it has to happen that way while I'm playing against Mario. It doesn't KO Mario barely, and our match couldn't be played fully because he was needed for tournament stream to fight Sol.

Have you ever Max Wafted someone at 44% and it KO'd them? F-smash has the same KB as a 44% Max Waft does at 78% on Mario (% in the video). This means that a N-air initiated on Mario at 65% can lead into, what is, a move packing the punch (no pun intended) of a 44% Max Waft, with the freshness bonuses taken into account. Consider that if Wario has stage control, he can carry the opponent close to the edge of the stage where his F-smash would KO at ridiculous percents with rage.

Aside from how disappointing Wario might be in terms of style of gameplay, aesthetics, or concepts (no shoulder bash ), mechanically, he's one of the most fine-tuned, fascinating, and well-designed characters in this game.

 

[KuchiiMaw]

I know this isn't that interesting nor useful, and I wasn't sure if it was really worth to post it here, but I want you to know, so here:

For unknown reasons, Wario Bike as an item behaves differently in the 3DS' version and WiiU's one. One of the main differences, and also the one which nerfs Wario a bit in the non-HD version compared with the HD one, is that the bike, when thrown down (it doesn't matter if you do a hard or soft throw), it bounces only once facing right, and twice facing left (one time less for every direction compared with the WiiU's version, where it bounces twice facing right and thrice facing left).

I noticed it when I was labbing in the 3DS version, and from my experience in countless matches in that version (I usually practice with someone who doesn't have the WiiU version). So, there you go (I also put that detail in SSB4's Wario's page, in the "Version Differences" part). The more you know!

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Spoiler: Explanation

On characters with mid-to-high falling speeds, Wario can true combo sourspot neutral air into the Wario Bike at mid-high percents (typically a 20% interval from 65%-85%). The bike must be buffered during a full hop's jump-squat animation for the bike to reliably combo. This is tricky to achieve using the B button on a standard Gamecube controller, but can be achieved easier by using mapping the Z shoulder button to "special." I feel using Z as "special" can make a lot of Wario's special moves easier to use.

This does not feel like a comfortable combo to perform (at first) for a few reasons, and I feel these are why no one does this. The first reason is that special attacks are not usually buffered out of a full hop. Secondly, buffer input priority will ruin the combo if you input the bike's "Side-B" input while in n-air landing lag, and thus must wait for the jump to begin. This is not hard to time as long as you are wary.

One issue that might interfere with this technique's practicality is the possible requirement of bad DI by certain characters when hit by the bike. I'm not sure whether I am incorrectly spacing the bike on Marth, MK, and Cloud (and are therefore jumping off too early/at a bad angle), but in many cases the bike does not *seem* to allow "hop-off combos" on characters with no-DI (every example in the video is no-DI with the cpu set to "control"), except Lucario, for whom this combo with no Di allowed for a d-air follow up (it might be due to the angle I jumped off the bike when testing Lucario, or the fact that Lucario is perfect for this combo given his weight and falling speed).

As for whom the bike can set up Wario's "Bike hop-off combos" on, I am not sure. For now, I would assume characters that are "low-hitstun and mid-to high falling speeds." I'm almost certain survival DI would make the bike combo into d-air as long as Wario jumped off at the right angle. The N-air to Wario Bike Combo seemed to only practically work on characters with falling speeds greater or equal to Marth's.
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Falling_speed

If you ever pull this off and max waft, you will SD off the ceiling blast zone. This technique is ultra situational as half waft will true combo on most of these characters from a sourspot n-air landed at 55-90%. This would mean the only time you'd ever want to do this is if they're at the right percents (upper and lower % limits for 3 characters shown in the video), and you either have no waft or max waft and plan to KO them with bike+d-air. I don't really think it's practical to be completely honest (even though it's easy to execute as long as you know when to do it), but it's an interesting combo that may lead to future ideas.

 

[Roots]

Never thought about our combo starters into aerial bike before

**This is all on Marth**

After watching this I did some testing and it seems you can also true combo Landing Uair -> Bike, but it's just a strict as Nair -> Bike

I've managed to get it on Marth from 40% - 90%
Uair -> Bike -> Dair true combo at 80%, though the opponent can probably DI away from the Dair

You can also combo the Bike hit into a UpB to kill off the top at 80% on Dreamland but they can probably DI it, plus characters fall out of Wario's UpB stupidly easy and his UpB doesn't have much of a hitbox below him

(sorry for trash quality)

DI (and maybe SDI) would play a huge role. Hitting them from below with the bike helps but its still probably very avoidable.

If they DI low and away, maybe you can punish it with a half waft or Dair, I don't know

Plus I didn't even consider the DI off of the Uair or if they can DI the UpB enough to survive

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Should probably put together a chart for shorthop B-Air safety on shield. SH B-Air is -20 on shield (if you include the 2 frames of landing lag on a shorthop autocancel). +7 for opponents unshielding makes it -13, which seems bad until you realize that most characters cannot catch up to your drifting away without a powershield or Wario messing up his spacing significantly.

I'll see about it in the near future. Considering how easy it is to pass through someone when you don't have stage control, and how shorthop Forward-B discourages opponents from attempting to powershield it, I think Warios don't abuse this nearly as often as they should.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Tested footstool -> sour F-Air stuff last night, and it does seem to work on most every character, but some factors limit it greatly against some characters:

1. Fall speed. The lower their fall speed, the more time you have to follow the footstool before they can get off the ground. Characters with high fall speeds require you to be pretty high up before the footstool so that you have more time spent fastfalling in order to catch up to them. Accounting for DI, you're basically limited to a falling U-Air at 50-60% on most of the characters with high fall speed.

2. Horizontal air speed. Characters with high horizontal air speed (as in, high top speed) force you into a 50/50 guess on which direction to move after the footstool. If you guess wrong, they're still footstooled and on the ground, but your guaranteed follow-up is gone. Of course, most people will default to moving in the direction that they were before you were above them, though.

3. Setup potential. The second hit of N-Air has high BKB and high KBG, so that tends to work best at lower percents and on fastfallers in general. U-Air has low BKB and not-high KBG, so that can get you the game-winning F-Smash or Waft at middling percents, depending on weight and such. Short characters can be difficult to hit with these moves, but a potential footstool makes punishing airdodges with N-Air much more rewarding. It's also worth noting that if you're in doubt on whether or not you can F-Air a footstooled opponent in time, a landing D-Air will give you frame advantage if you don't get the final hit, and with Rage, you still get follow-ups like D-Tilt and Half Waft.

I'll go through the air speed stats and make a chart for what to watch out for. Percents for following N-Air2 and U-Air will come soon after my Gamepad is returned from its repairs. :/

 

[Adrian Marin]

I made a video showcasing my 0 to death combo. Sorry about the quality!

 

[Wahrrior]

Hey guys, i just want to share something i've found when i was training, i don't know if it's new or not :

If you use the bike on the stage and you jump while doing a side-b reverse ou b neutral reverse the direction of the bike will change, lose some of it's momentum and it's will land near the ledge with the right speed.

It's work on all legal stage except smashville because it's too small.

 

[Magik0722]

Hey guys, i just want to share something i've found when i was training, i don't know if it's new or not :

If you use the bike on the stage and you jump while doing a side-b reverse ou b neutral reverse the direction of the bike will change, lose some of it's momentum and it's will land near the ledge with the right speed.

It's work on all legal stage except smashville because it's too small.

its known. Its also useful in doubles since when you turn it around it loses its hitbkox, so you can avoid hitting your parthner.

 

[Fish-Stix]

So I don't know if this has been mentioned somewhere or not, but a while ago I found out that if you drive into the oppoenent from off-stage, you can combo into the wheelie for a kill.

Spoiler: Bike Kill confirm(?)

Two things by the way:
1. You need to be careful with the wheelie, if you do it too early, you will knock the opponent upwards.
2. I had no replays left,where I had this combo, so I quickly made this scenario with Mario, meaning he has no DI and Wario has a bit rage, since this is outside of training.

Thoughts?

 

[Roots]

Alright, so I’ve been doing a lot of testing on Wario and have found a lot of small stuff possible. Dair -> Bair, Jab1 -> Dash Attack, whatever. What I’ve looked at most is Wario Dtilt and its followups.

Spoiler: True Combos out of B-Dtilt and RTC B-Dtilt

I don’t know what to call these, but for terminology’s sake I’ll make something up. There are two hitboxes in Dtilt, the base and tipper. the “B-“ means we’re using the base hitbox. If I were using a tipper hitbox, I’d use “T-“. RTC stands for Run Turnaround Cancel. A good video on it is by Reflex:

Anyways, here’s a list of B-Dtilt true combos I’ve accomplished on Mario. The ending percents are usually negligible and are just to give a sense of how long the combos are available.

B-Dtilt -> Dash Attack (72%-236%)
B-Dtilt -> B-Dtilt (72%-84%)
B-Dtilt -> T-Dtilt (85%-133%)
B-Dtilt -> T-Jab1 (107%-168%)
B-Dtilt -> Grab (107%-236%)
B-Dtilt -> Fair (143%-236%)
B-Dtilt -> Ftilt (154%-158%)

And to give a sense of how these were spaced, I walked into Mario until we were phasing, stopped until we settled, then inputed the commands so I would be at a consistent testing distance.

Another thing to note is many attacks will have ending percents at 236%. After this percent the Dtilt will send the opponent into tumble, allowing for DI and making many of these combos irrelevant, so if the followup true combos at or beyond 237%, I just put it as 236% for consistency.

The biggest shame about Dtilt for me is the percent range for B-Dtilt -> Ftilt. The percents are strict, require the opponent to be literally as close as possible to Wario, and are inconsistent through the cast of characters. Some go too far.

The fix to this is using a RTC B-Dtilt. This allows you to get the B-Dtilt hit and keep momentum, which allows you to get enough range to combo into opponents. Plus as Reflex's video shows, RTCs aren't bad in Wario's neutral.

Here are my true combo results using the RTC B-Dtilt:

RTC B-Dtilt -> Dash Attack (72%-236%)
RTC B-Dtilt -> B-Dtilt (72%-197%)
RTC B-Dtilt -> Half DownB (72%-???%)
RTC B-Dtilt -> T-Dtilt (85%-220%)
RTC B-Dtilt -> T-Jab1 (107%-228%)
RTC B-Dtilt -> B-Jab1 (107%-201%)
RTC B-Dtilt -> Dsmash (107%-230%)
RTC B-Dtilt -> Grab (107%-236%)
RTC B-Dtilt -> Full DownB (%%%?-%%%?)
RTC B-Dtilt -> Nair (131%-236%)
RTC B-Dtilt -> Fair (143%-236%)
RTC B-Dtilt -> Ftilt (154%-236%)
RTC B-Dtilt -> Turnaround Usmash (154%-???%)
RTC B-Dtilt -> Usmash (166%-194%)
RTC B-Dtilt -> Jab2 (229%-236%)

I know, it look like a mess.

The percent range for B-Dtilt -> Ftilt is much larger, allowing for a more consistent kill confirm. Other things to note is this tech allows for many other followups, including Half Waft, Dsmash, Nair, as well as Turnaround and Regular Usmash. I’m not sure why I don’t have the percents for Full Waft, but if it were a possible followup it should begin between 107%-131% as Grab (Frame 8) = 107%, Nair (Frame 10) = 131%, and Full Waft is Frame 9.

I’d make a video about it but I’m kind of burned out from so much Wario testing right now. So many of his combos and followups are DI dependant, position dependant, situation dependant, all that jazz. That in mind, I didn’t test for rage or staleness, though I’m sure rage would make the true combos begin earlier (by how much, I have no idea). Also, depending on if the character is a fast faller, they might have to react differently. Someone on the ground can just Frame 1 shield, but someone in the air would have to use a Frame 2/3/4 air dodge, use a REALLY fast attack, or jump, so it might begin earlier in that case too.

I have however made a table to show when B-Dtilt -> Ftilt begins to true combo on opponents. I used RTC on all of them since some characters, as I mentioned before, are hit too far for the Ftilt to connect with a regular B-Dtilt. From what I can tell, lighter characters start earlier, while heavier characters later. Here it is:

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WIwY0pdDnGO0wLJLFggpzSEfGETeOHMYq4DtRrDSIRM

No Bayo, Cloud, or Corrin because I don’t have them…

Final thing I want to say is I’m not sure if Up Tilted Ftilt has less range than regular Ftilt. If not than it would be a much stronger followup than a regular Ftilt .

Thanks for reading. If I messed anything up please tell me. I don’t want to be spreading misinformation.

TL;DR: Run Turnaround Cancel Down Tilt is a much more consistent kill confirm than a regular Down Tilt.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So I don't know if this has been mentioned somewhere or not, but a while ago I found out that if you drive into the oppoenent from off-stage, you can combo into the wheelie for a kill.

Spoiler: Bike Kill confirm(?)

Two things by the way:
1. You need to be careful with the wheelie, if you do it too early, you will knock the opponent upwards.
2. I had no replays left,where I had this combo, so I quickly made this scenario with Mario, meaning he has no DI and Wario has a bit rage, since this is outside of training.

Thoughts?

With any amount of DI, they move out of the way of the second hit. Also, they can jump, attack, or tech before you hit them with the slam even if their DI is poor.



In other news, I am testing a basic concept that's been around since launch: Using the extreme hitlag freeze of a fully-charged Down-B on your Bike to cover ledge options. The initial hit of Full Waft normally has two active frames, but because of its high damage and a hitlag multiplier of 2, when you hit something, Wario is frozen in place for 30 frames. Ledge Jumps are vulnerable around Frame 13 for all characters, Ledge Attack is vulnerable around Frame 20 for all characters, Ledge Roll is vulnerable around Frame 30 for almost all characters, and Ledge Climb is vulnerable around Frame 33 for almost all characters. The time between Ledge Jump vulnerability and Ledge Climb vulnerability is about 20 frames, so Full Waft in hitlag lasts long enough to cover all of these options at once when timed reasonably well.

Something to note is that the Waft hitbox actually starts below Wario: The top of that hitbox reaches up to around Wario's neck/chin. Because hitboxes in Smash 4 are circular, this means that getting maximum horizontal coverage in this situation requires Wario to shorthop before using Down-B. This is necessary in order to catch some Ledge Rolls. The list of characters who require a shorthop to catch Ledge Rolls in that scenario: Captain Falcon, Dr. Mario, Duck Hunt, Jigglypuff, Lucario, Mario, Mega Man, PAC-MAN, Pikachu, Sheik, Wii Fit Trainer.

 

[DoubleD]

In other news, I am testing a basic concept that's been around since launch: Using the extreme hitlag freeze of a fully-charged Down-B on your Bike to cover ledge options. The initial hit of Full Waft normally has two active frames, but because of its high damage and a hitlag multiplier of 2, when you hit something, Wario is frozen in place for 30 frames. Ledge Jumps are vulnerable around Frame 13 for all characters, Ledge Attack is vulnerable around Frame 20 for all characters, Ledge Roll is vulnerable around Frame 30 for almost all characters, and Ledge Climb is vulnerable around Frame 33 for almost all characters. The time between Ledge Jump vulnerability and Ledge Climb vulnerability is about 20 frames, so Full Waft in hitlag lasts long enough to cover all of these options at once when timed reasonably well.

Something to note is that the Waft hitbox actually starts below Wario: The top of that hitbox reaches up to around Wario's neck/chin. Because hitboxes in Smash 4 are circular, this means that getting maximum horizontal coverage in this situation requires Wario to shorthop before using Down-B. This is necessary in order to catch Ledge Rolls at the same time as the other ledge options (at least, on Sheik, who has the most invincibility frames/greatest distance on her Ledge Roll). A shorthop may not be necessary on worse Ledge Rolls, but more testing is needed to tell for sure; I only checked Sheik this morning, who is probably the most resistant character.

Could the lag from the hitlag freeze also catch the 2 frame ledge vulnerability? Or does the hitbox not reach low enough? Or does it depend?

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

Could the lag from the hitlag freeze also catch the 2 frame ledge vulnerability? Or does the hitbox not reach low enough? Or does it depend?

If you stand near the edge, then yes. I'm not sure if it is the same for the Short Hop Full Waft near the edge.

Question about the Z-axis... (For those who don't know : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYgX1-3MYF0)

Does Wario has any benefits with this? Will Wario have better hitboxes like slightly better Dtilt / Upair while playing on Duck Hunt or Flatzone?

 

[Wahrrior]

TheReflexWonder I saw you using chomp into b-air at early percents during some of your matchs at Momocon, does it's work on all the casts and can they DI away/jump?

 

[SharpSerac]

i feel as if this is worth sharing here, hopefully you guys put it to good use (also sorry for potato)

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

To my knowledge, Wario does not get any true follow-ups/tech chase opportunities off of a short hop f-air when the opponent is floaty, doesn't DI inwards, and receives a significant amount of hitstun. Unfortunately, DACUS is not in this game, and would have allowed for such follow-ups. Wario, however, still has another option: roll-cancel grab (RCG).

Basically, at %s you would normally f-air a fast-faller or a character with average falling speed to achieve a high percent tech chase (such as when N-air stops linking with no-DI; Mario: 60%-80%), you can do the same to floaties and follow up with a RCG. It is not a true combo by a few frames, but against all floaties except Luigi, there is not much the opponent can do other than jump. Peach attempts to buffer n-air out of hitstun in the video, but Wario is fast enough to avoid her n-air. This technique also works on mid-fallers (as seen with Bowser in the video) at %s the opponent is sent too far for Wario to tech chase them with d-tilt, bike, or f-smash. I believe RCG is superior to dash attack in this scenario, because when sourspot dash attack hits an aerial opponent, the opponent gets sent into the ground at a frame advantage. That being said, if you can confidently land the sweetspot of dash attack, go for it. I believe full hop RAR b-air allows for a nice mix-up if the opponent likes to jump out of short hop f-air hitstun.

The most important thing to understand about this technique as well as most of Wario's short hop f-air follow-ups is that they are all reactionary as long as you internalize the information, have a good intuition about weight/falling speed, and understand the mix-ups (such as a floaty choosing to jump out of hitstun or not). Most of the f-air/n-air-->f-smash tech-in-place punishes I land are initiated out of shield, meaning I usually don't preemptively look at percents and consciously attempt land a short hop f-air in neutral (although sometimes I do). I want to use whatever option feels the most natural to me in neutral, but it just so happens that for Wario, getting follow-ups on his moves requires really good awareness.

 

[CoveredNMoney]

What is the best aerial to use after a FF nair at low percents? I'm assuming Uair for damage, or nair for a possible frame trap?

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Punishing Ledge Grab Vulnerability.

When an opponent is holding on to the ledge, you might want to punish their vulnerability with a move that hits under the stage.
Here are the moves Wario can use from worst to greatest (in terms of hitting under the stage; ignored Jab 1 and Bike).

Sh-buffered d-air<d-tilt<d-smash (early)<d-smash (late) <Dash attack=Half Waft=Max Waft. You can skip the spoiler message and still get a lot of practical info.

Spoiler: Video and Values

In terms of how low the last three hit, they are not actually equal, but because they can all hit Ganondorf (lowest ledge hurtbox) on ledge, they can work across the entire cast. This video shows ledge grab vulnerability across the cast.

I think some values in the video might be incorrect as some results aren't consistent with the video's claims (Toon Link, Zelda, etc.). Most of my info is contextualized through this video.

Note: When I say something is impractical, I mean that a move can hit a character on the ledge; however, because it requires the right frame of a changing ledge grab animation, it should not be attempted in matches as it is risky.

For 50%-classified characters (Ike, Ryu, ZSS): sh-buffered-D-air becomes impractical and should not be used on these characters or any higher than 50%.

50%-56%+ including C. Falcon(57%)+Samus(58%): Now limited to d-tilt or better options.

At 57%: D-tilt becomes impractical (except against C. Falcon and Samus). So, you don't want to D-tilt Kirby, as you'll miss around half of the time.

For 59%+ except for Toon Link (59%), Zelda (61%), and Robin (61%): D-smash becomes impractical, you can get the late hitbox on many of these characters, but it's super weak. The late hitbox can inconsistently hit many opponents all the up to Diddy (64%), meaning Greninja and Ganon will never be D-smashed. Oddly, sweetspot D-smash connects more often on the left side of many stages against many characters in the 59-61% range, but there's no way a Wario player will or should know this, so it's impractical imo.

Diddy Kong, Greninja, and Ganondorf: Use dash attack or the wafts. Honesty, I don't even try to ledge guard Ganon, because I don't want to get Ganoncided.

Here is a way I like to think about this info. It's not a perfect way, but it's certainly practical.

1. Anyone from the Pokemon (except Greninja) or Earthbound universes are susceptible to all of Wario's attacks.

2. Anyone from the Super Mario universe can be D-tilted or hit with any better option.

3. If the character looks like an anime character, avoid D-tilt (Marth, Roy, Zelda, Robin, Link, Toon Link [I know he's a cartoon], Pit/DP, Palutena, Lucina, Corrin, and Cloud). Opt for dash attack.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Reminder to test the reliability of Up-B -> ledge grab follow-ups. In my experience, the high fixed knockback makes it so that with significant Rage, catching an opponent with Up-B and grabbing the ledge before the final hit comes out causes enough hitstun for true follow-ups after a ledge drop, such as B-Air and Waft. This may be particularly useful as a hit confirm against characters with no hitbox on their recoveries, such as Mega Man and Sonic.