m2k vs. kdj

[KirbyKaze]

dammit west coast this thread isn't about mango

 

[DtJ Jungle]

apparently 'm2k vs kdj' is an anagram for 'MANGO IS THE BEST DISCUSS"

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Well then. I winz!

 

[DtJ Jungle]

elven 1

PforPWNT 0

 

[KirbyKaze]

this is the type of intelligent discussion i like to see :D

 

[DtJ Jungle]

yeah it really shows the point counter point of a real debate

 

[KirbyKaze]

i agree there's so much intelligent thought here :D

 

[DtJ Jungle]

but P clearly isnt over 9000 is he?

 

[KirbyKaze]

i'm not sure who's over what

 

[NeighborhoodP]

apparently 'm2k vs kdj' is an anagram for 'MANGO IS THE BEST DISCUSS"

the best tend to float to the top if you know what i mean

cream of the crop and all

 

[DtJ Jungle]

thats what seh said?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

apparently 'm2k vs kdj' is an anagram for 'MANGO IS THE BEST DISCUSS"

That's actually really true and funny.

Although that's not how you use the word anagram, noob.

Don't bother with an intelligent response to that, because I'll just debate a minor point whilst flaming you and then when you come up with an unavoidable counter to my entire argument, I'll just ignore you! Haha n00b!

-NeighborhoodP

 

[KirbyKaze]

disregard this post i was thinking of something but then my brain melted

 

[Fever for Cowbell]

that would happen when you start posting that late lolol thats why i went to bed


only to find out Mic ***** my face

 

[KirbyKaze]

lololol i think i love atlantic south now :D

 

[soap]

where'd all these pages come from? was jona involved?

 

[Fever for Cowbell]

nope me, kirby, a little bit of mikehaggar and PforPWNT

 

[KirbyKaze]

PforPresident :D

 

[Fever for Cowbell]

so...i got an infaction on this account too

 

[SLAYERCoLdKiLr]

the best tend to float to the top if you know what i mean

cream of the crop and all

Hey NeighborhoodP, how was it?

 

[soap]

all our threads in this board get trashed, im not complaining or anything, but the thread never seems to recover cuz people forgot the original point.

soooo, m2k vs. kdj? conclusion? mango beats both of them rofl, ok im done. but seriously kdj is old news....

he was just tenacious but he did alot of risky stuff that shouldnt work consistently, it salvaged some sets off ken + m2k but i think they would've caught on and he couldnt keep that sheik success going too much longer.

Hate to admit it but m2k is textbook, his stuff will work forever, drephen sheik is still better though against spacies until proven otherwise.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I dunno... I never caught on to his routine. Did you?

 

[soap]

jus watched some kdj, cant sleep....4 in the morning is sooo boring, ya nvm i think he would continue to **** if he continued

he did have a few bad habits like predictable sidestepping and just some general nonsense which may just be part of his style but i think his sheik still had alotta potential for growth.

like against m2k he repeatedly instantly airdodges onto the stage and gets ***** for it, if he knew how to ledgestall consistently that opens up alot more options and variable timing cuz m2k basically ***** him off the edgehang position, and iono maybe some timely use of needles, and some drephen/m2kesque techchases, u know some basic effective sheik stuff that was completely missing from his game that he could implement to complement his already effective style.

u dont have to completely change your style, like i tried getting drephen to shoot more needles but he is too confrontational and impatient to bother with it so i tried showing him how to use them defensively to just give yourself space and get your *** back on the ground off platforms.

He never does though, maybe trying to implement too much is just a distraction. These guys styles work so why fix it? but if there was a sheik that took all the best parts of all these styles and combined them effectively it would truly revolutionize the character methinks. Its a nice concept but easier said than done.

But I actually think m2k HAS the potential to be that sheik to incorporate the best most efficient parts of her game which is why it annoys me that he johns out of using sheik in lieu of marth even though he says "sheik is the best" and "my sheik is the best" but he is too comfortable and lazy with the marth spacies matchup. Sheik has more potential than marth i think, and m2ks sheik could be better than his marth if he'd be willing to sacrifice not winning a couple tourneys and taking his sheik to a ridiculous level. But two grand or something along those lines is alot of money to sacrifice for just learning a new character that u dont even really need at this point. (Azen used to do it with his fox though, another character with more potential than marth)

I know its been speculated before and PAL johned on but i think nihonjin's sheik has the most versatility and taken the character the farthest so far. We'll see how he does if he comes to that 09' boston thing, but its not the same as if he moved here and really started affecting our scene. I think he would change the US sheik metagame for the better. He has a very good blend of smart safe approaches, creative combos and edgeguards, but i feel he is also missing something when i watch him, that control factor over the match that i feel with drephen/m2k, which is a combination of techchasing + general mindraping

this was all very vague, im just flustered with melee sheik is all, i was recently thinking about switching to secondaries but now i wanna try to get really efficient and smart with her.

 

[KirbyKaze]

i think we need to shut down aerials better

oh and kill out of a single grab/hit with greater consistency

those seem to be requisites for revolutionizing your character

 

[soap]

shut down aerials? what u mean like counter fox nairs and such? thats easy enough to space if u know its coming, but the problem is baiting, no, controlling them into a predictable aerial that u can avoid instead of the usual smartly lasering and approaching. maybe timing the interception consistently would be more effective overall. fair/bair/uair can go through all foxes approaches if u can time and space it right.

i agree with the single hit thing though, efficient tech-chasing is my achilles heel.

 

[KirbyKaze]

not just timing our own high priority aerials or tilts to counter but rather eliminating follows with proper application of on-hit defenses like ccing and whatever. most sheiks just reflexively cc d-smash but we don't explore the other options like shield or f-tilt or u-tilt or grab enough. and if we do we don't use it in a gay enough way.

i think drephen has one extreme of tech chasing down to an art with his simple yet easy-to-hit-with tech chases. d-smash is very inescapable and doesn't take much reaction time if you just wd with their di and react accordingly but it also makes reacting to the tech in place harder if you want to go for regrabs. kdj does u-smashes because they cover multiple options and are high reward but if they know how the u-smash tech chase works they can force a 50/50 which isn't all that reliable.

we need to strike a balance imho. and figure out when it's optimal to do what in which situations.

 

[soap]

not just timing our own high priority aerials or tilts to counter but rather eliminating follows with proper application of on-hit defenses like ccing and whatever. most sheiks just reflexively cc d-smash but we don't explore the other options like shield or f-tilt or u-tilt or grab enough. and if we do we don't use it in a gay enough way.

i think drephen has one extreme of tech chasing down to an art with his simple yet easy-to-hit-with tech chases. d-smash is very inescapable and doesn't take much reaction time if you just wd with their di and react accordingly but it also makes reacting to the tech in place harder if you want to go for regrabs. kdj does u-smashes because they cover multiple options and are high reward but if they know how the u-smash tech chase works they can force a 50/50 which isn't all that reliable.

we need to strike a balance imho. and figure out when it's optimal to do what in which situations.

CC utilt>grab sounds ****, CC shield seems odd, why not just shield in the first place instead of taking the hit?

For techchases i personally SUCK with the usmash, i always guess wrong, i think a combination of jabbing nontechs, regrabs+boost grab regrabs, ended in dash attack fair or dsmash is the MOST efficient. Basically the **** M2k did to darkrain at 52

Its hard to get the regrab everytime though, m2k had to dash attack sometimes to get there in time which lets them escape at low percents and sometimes even CC counter. and there are ways out of the forced getup like the smash DI up to reset to neutral, or hold the desired action before u get jabbed.

I personally look for the tech in place everytime just cuz i hate getting caught with the shine and ***** out of what was supposed to be MY tech-chase, but im sometimes a second late on the regrabs away and just try to dsmash their supposed sidesteps cuz im scared to boost grab and get sidestepped, but good foxes that shield dsmash punish me for it, i need something more foolproof.

Perhaps i need better reflexes, but i need a better option when i am a tad slow, sometimes i run up to them sh back and space a fair to catch a sidestep, but if they were buffering roll to get away, this option lacks the pressure to trap them. Run past fsmash into back of shield catches sidesteps and is hard to punish if u just buffer roll away after. im actually thinking run up then just stop like a ftilt distance away and wait for them to make their move, get ready for the full jump and run under them and bair. chase the roll or whatever else they try

 

[Mew2King]

sheik's jab thing only makes falcon get up below like ~30% or something.

With Jiggs it's like below ~80%.

Magus told me all this, and it seems to be true.

Jiggs is so gay.

I've probably been using Sheik more than my other characters recently (recently as in every other Saturday that I play cuz that's the only time I really ever play) and I use her most of tourney matches vs most characters. Marth is just for spacies and Marth dittos, Peach is a joke character easily beatable with almost anyone lol, I **** ICs now, Sheik is for Sheik dittos and 80% of the remaining cast pretty much. If my Fox is playing good, I **** Jiggs with her, but usually I'm not playing good but my Fox stands the best chance now. Sheik seems to **** Falco too. Nair out of shield is too good! I'm now glad that people underrate her it just gives me more credit for using her I guess. I don't really care anymore but I still like posting my opinions.

Doc's also underrated!

 

[Vts]

sheik's jab thing only makes falcon get up below like ~30% or something.

With Jiggs it's like below ~80%.

Magus told me all this, and it seems to be true.

Jiggs is so gay.

I've probably been using Sheik more than my other characters recently (recently as in every other Saturday that I play cuz that's the only time I really ever play) and I use her most of tourney matches vs most characters. Marth is just for spacies and Marth dittos, Peach is a joke character easily beatable with almost anyone lol, I **** ICs now, Sheik is for Sheik dittos and 80% of the remaining cast pretty much. If my Fox is playing good, I **** Jiggs with her, but usually I'm not playing good but my Fox stands the best chance now. Sheik seems to **** Falco too. Nair out of shield is too good! I'm now glad that people underrate her it just gives me more credit for using her I guess. I don't really care anymore but I still like posting my opinions.

Doc's also underrated!

woot now I can root for you (cus I hate marf)

but who do you think is your hardest match up. (we should turn this into a ask m2k about sheik thread )

LIES!!!! (about Doc)

 

[Mew2King]

woot now I can root for you (cus I hate marf)

but who do you think is your hardest match up. (we should turn this into a ask m2k about sheik thread )

LIES!!!! (about Doc)

I don't know, Jigglypuff LOL. It's not even just mango, he's just the best puff, but jigglypuff in general (hungrybox and king beat my marth and sheik often, hungrybox we like 3 stock each other randomly though it's weird I guess it depends how perfect I'm playing or something idk) is really hard for me. I think I'd def win the majority vs kdj in sheik dittos if we were to play (assuming both primes) but who knows. Otherwise idk, so far I've been beating everyone else.

Doc is maddddddddddddddd good dude. one Bair + Cape = INSTANT ****

 

[Vts]

Doc is maddddddddddddddd good dude. one Bair + Cape = INSTANT ****

or throw/cape

meh my hardest match up is fox any tips?

 

[NeighborhoodP]

Instead of your constant tone of "woe is me I just forever suck against Jigglypuff," why don't you just put your mind to it and get better than anyone else at the matchup? Seriously, if you became the best player in the world, why can't you learn one matchup when you have three (even four -- you could go Falcon) different characters to use and try? And I say this from personal experience because I have sucked against Jigglypuff (and Peach, for that matter) all my life, and at one point I wanted to (and did) throw my hands up and just say, **** it, I'm never going to learn Jigglypuff. And Sheik is supposed to **** Jigglypuff.

But you know what I did? I got over it, I picked up Marth, played him for a few months, got pretty decent with him, and realized, You know what? It's a lot easier for me to beat Jiggly when I'm playing Marth and not Sheik, so I'll just put my mind to it and try to learn the matchup. Lo and behold, I'm still not great at it (not many Jiggs to practice against) but I know what to do and it's not an auto-loss anymore.

The fact that a player who probably isn't half as good as you can do that should make you feel embarassed, assuming you take this game as seriously as your body of work indicates you do.

I love you and the way you play and you're probably my single biggest inspiration to keep playing this game, but that's the easy thing to tell you. You're used to people kissing your *** and telling you how great you are. Maybe you've never thought about it, but you're a symbol for smash itself, and your work ethic is inspiring. That makes it equally depressing to see you whine about one measly matchup with a character who's not even that good.

 

[soap]

Marth is just for spacies and Marth dittos, Peach is a joke character easily beatable with almost anyone lol, I **** ICs now, Sheik is for Sheik dittos and 80% of the remaining cast pretty much.

as far as im concerned, marth + spacies make up 75% of the competitive scene, so saying u use her for 80% of the remaing 25% of competitive play means u use her like 20% of the time, these are rough numbers but u said u use her for most tourney matches now, do they play many characters in jersey outside the top 4?

As for me personally the last big hurdle holding me back is just really good foxes i run into. I know u dont sheik them yourself, but ive been working on my falco+marth alot to experiment on fox with, do u think i need them? Do they do better on fox than sheik in your opinion. Im pretty convinced i need a spacie when they take me to floats/cruise, i find those levels impossible

 

[NeighborhoodP]

i ban poke floats, that **** is GAY AS ****. pokefloats and green greens, just figure out which one your opponent likes and know if you're gonna have to ban it.

but i think sheik is superb on most counterpicks. just camp the **** out of them and punish them for taking you to that stage. bair and needles need to stay spammed imo.

plus sheik has jungle japes of her own which most foxes hate. brinstar and dk64 also work, though to lesser extents.

 

[soap]

ya floats is prolly the worst, green greens u can at least trap the little ****er and tech chase. I think ill try exclusive falco on cruise, it just seems so right.

Japes is quickly becoming a staple for me.. its good against falco too, cuz falco will try to do alot of overb stuff if he is familiar with the level and u can catch him offguard with needles for stocks

im still curious to see m2ks sheik fox matchup views

 

[ZoSo]

I love you and the way you play and you're probably my single biggest inspiration to keep playing this game

What?

Soap, I know the question wasn't directed at me, but I think the top tiers all do fine against each other more or less.

Sheik kind of suffers on counterpicks simply due to her poor aerial mobility. Needles are great and all, but you will eventually HAVE to chase/approach a campy Fox, especially on the moving counterpicks. I've always found it way easier to just go Fox and laser a lot on Pokefloats, Japes, et al.

Every time I see a match on Green Greens it goes to like 7:30. I really wish TOs would start banning that stage.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Instead of your constant tone of "woe is me I just forever suck against Jigglypuff," why don't you just put your mind to it and get better than anyone else at the matchup? Seriously, if you became the best player in the world, why can't you learn one matchup when you have three (even four -- you could go Falcon) different characters to use and try? And I say this from personal experience because I have sucked against Jigglypuff (and Peach, for that matter) all my life, and at one point I wanted to (and did) throw my hands up and just say, **** it, I'm never going to learn Jigglypuff. And Sheik is supposed to **** Jigglypuff.

But you know what I did? I got over it, I picked up Marth, played him for a few months, got pretty decent with him, and realized, You know what? It's a lot easier for me to beat Jiggly when I'm playing Marth and not Sheik, so I'll just put my mind to it and try to learn the matchup. Lo and behold, I'm still not great at it (not many Jiggs to practice against) but I know what to do and it's not an auto-loss anymore.

The fact that a player who probably isn't half as good as you can do that should make you feel embarassed, assuming you take this game as seriously as your body of work indicates you do.

I love you and the way you play and you're probably my single biggest inspiration to keep playing this game, but that's the easy thing to tell you. You're used to people kissing your *** and telling you how great you are. Maybe you've never thought about it, but you're a symbol for smash itself, and your work ethic is inspiring. That makes it equally depressing to see you whine about one measly matchup with a character who's not even that good.

EDIT: I asked m2k some questions about nair OOS with sheik against falco but i accidently took it away when i fixed some things with the picture link but i wont retype it cuz m2k already answered my question below lawl

 

[Mew2King]

Sheik's jump is in air on frame 4, meaning 3 frames startup, the 4th frame she is nairing, meaning the 6th frame is the hitbox of Nair. Grab is 7, making shield jump nair 1 frame faster. But the main thing about it is the Nair is perfect height to hit Falco's head without hitting the Dair and it always seems to beat Falco's Nair too. It basically makes Falco unable to approach you easily or he gets hit for 14 damage (which at mid % combos to dash attack I think if they don't tech which they usually won't)

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

I see, thanks for answering. Also it prolly has chances it would hit them even if they would fulljump or WD past you out of the shine... **** Nair OoS is freakin awesome. I hope more vids of your shiek goes up soon!

 

[ZoSo]

Haggar, did you actually read P's post?

I thought it was one of the more positive things I've seen him contribute.

Nair out of shield is broken.