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Lumine Hall - Ness Video and Critique Thread

PSIBoy

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I recently started playing Earthbound and got a capture card, so I thought this would be a good opportunity to post some random Ness matches I had on For Glory for some criticism. I picked him up a couple of days ago because of my new obligation to the Mother series (and my grab-heavy playstyle with other characters) but I'm intending on solely working on him as a main so PLEASE give me some advice. I won't make any excuses for my mistakes other than the lag messing up some of my pivot grabs and techs from his side B, so please tear me apart and tell me what I should improve on to get better. Thanks guys. (maybe also tell me how the quality is, I'm still playing around with settings)

(still processing atm)
Hey, welcome fellow Ness main.

Overall the quality and your gameplay seems fairly good, though FG is not the best representation of skill. Full of spammers and bad players, the reason why I gave it up a week or two back. Biggest thing I noticed is that you never use n-air. Use it. It is incredible as an out of shield option as well as use it in short hops to approach plus spacing. Plus, at higher percents, when not near the edge it is highly advisable to use u-throw to PKT1 juggles. I'll be rewatching again later, so expect more constructive criticism.
 

Soshii

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Hey, welcome fellow Ness main.

Overall the quality and your gameplay seems fairly good, though FG is not the best representation of skill. Full of spammers and bad players, the reason why I gave it up a week or two back. Biggest thing I noticed is that you never use n-air. Use it. It is incredible as an out of shield option as well as use it in short hops to approach plus spacing. Plus, at higher percents, when not near the edge it is highly advisable to use u-throw to PKT1 juggles. I'll be rewatching again later, so expect more constructive criticism.
Yeah understood. I got some friendlies in with a friend last night so I'll upload some more wins and losses. He's definitely tournament level so the matches will be more showcasing. I realllyy wanna get good with Ness, I'm loving Earthbound so much lol. I'll take your advice into mind, thanks!
 
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ilysm

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@ Soshii Soshii , welcome to the Chosen Children (by the way, all, that's what I've just decided I'm calling the Ness Army from now on, 'cos 'Ness Army' is a little boring and generic)! I only noticed a couple things in the video. One is about edgeguarding. So, d-air isn't usually to effective as it's weak, laggy, slow to come out, and slow to end. When they're below you, you have a few options;

~ Falling n-air or b-air to stage-spike them
~ Reverse down-smash at the ledge to send them at a horizontal angle as they're trying to sweetspot
~ PKT1 juggle until they're above you, at which point options like f-air, n-air, u-air, and more PKT1 are more viable

The reason why low is slightly trickier than high is because, regarding Ness's position relative to his opponent, Ness is at his weakest when his opponent is below him. That's mainly because his d-air took such huge nerfs. Which sort of leads into my next bit of advice: when you're trying to get back down to the stage, PKT2 isn't really the best option. While it feels safe and powerful as it starts, it's kinda laggy and punishable as it ends. Your best bet would be falling u-air, since u-air has a hitbox that covers a lot of Ness's body and a little bit behind him.

Glad you like Earthbound! It's a phenomenal game. Nice to have you on the boards.
 

Waael

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I found my new love for Kongo Jungle

 

Soshii

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@ Soshii Soshii , welcome to the Chosen Children (by the way, all, that's what I've just decided I'm calling the Ness Army from now on, 'cos 'Ness Army' is a little boring and generic)! I only noticed a couple things in the video. One is about edgeguarding. So, d-air isn't usually to effective as it's weak, laggy, slow to come out, and slow to end. When they're below you, you have a few options;

~ Falling n-air or b-air to stage-spike them
~ Reverse down-smash at the ledge to send them at a horizontal angle as they're trying to sweetspot
~ PKT1 juggle until they're above you, at which point options like f-air, n-air, u-air, and more PKT1 are more viable

The reason why low is slightly trickier than high is because, regarding Ness's position relative to his opponent, Ness is at his weakest when his opponent is below him. That's mainly because his d-air took such huge nerfs. Which sort of leads into my next bit of advice: when you're trying to get back down to the stage, PKT2 isn't really the best option. While it feels safe and powerful as it starts, it's kinda laggy and punishable as it ends. Your best bet would be falling u-air, since u-air has a hitbox that covers a lot of Ness's body and a little bit behind him.

Glad you like Earthbound! It's a phenomenal game. Nice to have you on the boards.
Thank you for the advice! I definitely started noticing that Ness is at a disadvantage right above the opponent. I'm gonna take your words to mind as I progress with him.

These are the friendlies I mentioned early on. There's 7 matches in total but I think I did decently. He did win about 70% of the time, I omitted the matches where I double SD'd with PKT errors (I definitely gotta work on my recovery and offstage options. I'm still a little uncomfortable with Ness offstage because of my consistency with his PKT) .

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLP7mRR8Lf249t1iECBYC5f17xwjRdBOqN
 

SageEnder

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Thank you for the advice! I definitely started noticing that Ness is at a disadvantage right above the opponent. I'm gonna take your words to mind as I progress with him.

These are the friendlies I mentioned early on. There's 7 matches in total but I think I did decently. He did win about 70% of the time, I omitted the matches where I double SD'd with PKT errors (I definitely gotta work on my recovery and offstage options. I'm still a little uncomfortable with Ness offstage because of my consistency with his PKT) .

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLP7mRR8Lf249t1iECBYC5f17xwjRdBOqN
what I did when I was picking up Ness was I went into training and just drilled hitting the pkt2 over and over again until it was close to second nature, and even then it takes some real matches you to not get thrown off by the nerves of someone trying to gimp you,

however when you are able to hit it perfectly so you sweetspot to the ledge and kill the person trying to gimp you with pkt2 it is a great feeling
 

Meccs

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http://www.twitch.tv/gameunderground/b/607982326

start at 14 mins. I need to use PK Fire smarter.
Last stock of match 3 was disgusting. Very disappointed in my loss there- but he's really good. A win would've been so nice. The opportunity was there and he just took me out back after he died the first stock.

There's also some of my fighting Bloodcross' Toon Link and Sheik in friendlies farther in there but I don't feel like looking atm.
 
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Conda

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Commentated match from my channel:

Let me know what you guys have been thinking of the quality and commentary.
 

Noa.

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http://www.twitch.tv/gameunderground/b/607982326

start at 14 mins. I need to use PK Fire smarter.
Last stock of match 3 was disgusting. Very disappointed in my loss there- but he's really good. A win would've been so nice. The opportunity was there and he just took me out back after he died the first stock.

There's also some of my fighting Bloodcross' Toon Link and Sheik in friendlies farther in there but I don't feel like looking atm.
Hey @ Meccs Meccs this is coming a bit late. I've been busy lately but I'd be happy to just give a little advice.

I think you're biggest problem is that you never grab. Ness's grab game is a cornerstone of his gameplan, and it's important to implement throws into your game. It's strange really, but you almost never grab. Just start grabbing a hell of a lot more. Just dash grab. Shield grab. Walk around and grab. Etc. You must start grabbing a lot more. Doing empty hops is a great way to land grabs. Just doing a short hop and landing without an aerial, and going straight to a grab is wonderful. Usually when you're landing, you're always performing an aerial, which makes you predictable. I also had the nasty habit and have done my best to shake it off. I suggest you learn to just land and grab, aka tomahawking. That's really your biggest flaw, but just a few smaller tidbits down below.


You typically do not want to ever land with fair. Even if you hit your opponent with fair, if you land before the final hit occurs, you can get punished by the opponent for landing with fair. It has way too much landing lag, so avoid doing it. Also, when you knock your opponent away and want to start juggling them with pk thunder, sometimes you wait too long. If the opponent is knocked very far away and high up, it's good to pause for a second before using pk thunder. But otherwise, you should start pk thunder immediately to put the pressure on them while they're recovering. As you stated earlier, you used pk fire too often. I suggest using it only when an opponent is landing, or if you predict a spotdodge/roll. Mario is especially hard to catch with pk fire because even when he's landing he can just cape it. And you adapted to the Fludd stuff pretty well. Just recover low against fludd and you'll be ok. Your Ness isn't bad at all. :)





Ok so I have some vods from the last tournament I played at. I would love some feedback on it from anyone! I'm especially keen to hear @ Luco Luco and @ Earthbound360 Earthbound360 critique me. :V I have a couple of sets, though I wouldn't recommend watching all of them, obviously. But I will link them all here.

First set: I faced this opponent after I got my bye first round. I 2-0'd him. He's ok but not really that good. The first match is a little shaky because I was warming up, but the second match I manhandle him. You can skip this one.

http://www.twitch.tv/gamingknights1/b/609570565?t=23m37s

Second set: I played off stream. I 2-0'd a Yoshi.

Third set; This is a set where I go 2-0 against a player who goes Rosalina first match, and Olimar the second match. I still made a couple of big, stupid mistakes, but I had some clutch moments hehe.

http://www.twitch.tv/gamingknights1/b/609592217

Fourth set: This is winner's finals where I play against the Sonic. The first two matches he destroyed me. The last two matches were a lot more competitive. I went 1-3 against him.

http://www.twitch.tv/gamingknights1/b/609592217?t=20m21s

Final set: This is Loser's finals. This is my final set in this tournament. It's Ness vs Yoshi the whole way through.

http://www.twitch.tv/gamingknights1/b/609592217?t=58m30s





I feel my biggest mistakes are making a multitude of technical errors, and missing a lot of punishes. I killed myself about three times due to my stupid mistakes. Missing punishes has to do with my lack of matchup knowledge against some characters, as well as my tech skill not being up to snuff. i also used pk fire way too much against Sonic. It was stupid of me.
 

Earthbound360

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Geez Draconoa, I'd love to give you my thoughts (especially since you asked specifically for them), but the framerate on the vids you linked, at least for me, is so choppy that it actually is giving me a head ache. Idk if it's my computer or what, but I can't keep up with anything that goes on in the match. Have you tried watching the stream links on your own? Do they look fine to you? IF so, I'll try to find another way to watch them sometime. It's weird, because my computer seems okay with other Twitch streams like that.
 

Noa.

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Hmm I did watch them and they were fine. I couldn't watch the VODS on my laptop though. They were constantly stopping and buffering; basically impossible to watch. I could watch it on my PC though which is connected with an Ethernet cable, unlike my laptop which uses the wifi.

If that doesn't fix it I'll try to find a way to download the videos and then put them on YouTube or something. Twitch VODS suck though lol.
 

Luco

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I'm watching through em now, but won't have tim to watch all of it tonight. Something I noticed though - so proud of you for knowing when to Bthrow that Rosalina at the edge there. Felt a tingle of pride knowing we'd done those calculations together. <3

A few times against the Olimar I got a bit scared there, felt like you were running around him but not forcing him to respect you enough; but towards the end you really got a hold of yourself and finished it nicely!

I'll give feedback on the other stuff at a later date =D
 

Noa.

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Yeah doing those bthrow kill charts really helped a lot.

And I have very little experience playing against olimar, both in this game and in brawl. I mained him back in brawl though, so I started to implementing nair a lot more. I played the peach olimar matchup in brawl maybe like 500 times or something. Peach's nair goes through his whole moveset and it lasts forever so it's a very good tool against Oli. Ness's nair is similar in application so I started to use it that way.

I'm very happy how that Olimar game ended. I was quite behind but was able to bring it back.
 

Ggjeed

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You looked more much more focused game 2, that ending was so painful. How much thought do you put in the angle of your pk thunder? Are you consciously aiming Olimar or just hitting?
 

Noa.

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You looked more much more focused game 2, that ending was so painful. How much thought do you put in the angle of your pk thunder? Are you consciously aiming Olimar or just hitting?
I don't know exactly what you mean haha. I just try to trap Olimar in pk Thunder is all.
 

Earthboundy

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Going to Battlefield kinda puzzled me. Other than that, you did great. My secondary is Olimar and I can say he has some advantages over Ness. I recommend trying to juggle him with PK Thunder.
 

Noa.

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What stages would you recommend to counterpick?

And battlefield was the first game. I struck fd and he struck smashville so that's where we played.
 

Earthboundy

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What stages would you recommend to counterpick?

And battlefield was the first game. I struck fd and he struck smashville so that's where we played.
Castle Siege was a good choice. Temporary walk offs mean we don't have to worry about our recovery.
 

Meccs

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http://www.twitch.tv/gameunderground/b/613843930

Starting at 1:10 I have two sets. Won't spoil them tho. I ended up 4th overall in the tournament, I keep placing better and better each week!
One thing I've definitely noticed is that whenever I feel overwhelmed (see the last match against Bloodcross' Sheik) I start using PK Fire WAAAYYYYY too much. Very bad habit. I still need to not use it as much, though. It's something I just do a lot (pivot PK Fire) in the neutral game.
 
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perroloco

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(I also posted this in the difficult match-up thread, but felt like it should be here too)

I always have problems when fighting against Wegee..
Here's my latest match against a very good Luigi:
Didn't record the first part because it was us recreating the match (we had been D/Ced) so basically what you see is how the match restarted.
Sorry for the crappy quality, btw any ideas on how to record matches from the 3ds?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnRtqUjmmB0
 

Ggjeed

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Re Recording: I don't have a capture card attached so I do the same thing with a tablet camera. Make sure you're watching the game through the camera and I'd suggest not caring about the second screen.

As for the matchup, one thing I notice (in this video and my own experience) is shielding fireball is bad. They try to use it to bait shield into a grab. I guess you could do a tilt or short hop nair out of shield, but i'm not fast enough (especially online) to pull that off. Dodge or a quick down-b to absorb (but this is slow and may require good timing) or jump are probably best options. I think we win in aerial combat, too. Not sure, though. I've seen good air moves out of luigis.
 

perroloco

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Thanks for that, yeah Luigi's fireball goes for the grab, should've figured that out during the match. As for the aerial combat, I'm not too sure, Luigi has great aerial moves, I think.
 

Waael

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Hey guys, we had a tournament in Norcal on Saturday and 9 reno players attended. We followed with a crew battle afterwards!



 

Noa.

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Hey guys, we had a tournament in Norcal on Saturday and 9 reno players attended. We followed with a crew battle afterwards!



Oh wow Good job on taking off six stocks in the crew battle. Your control of pk thunder is quite good, and you kept them off stage a lot.


I have the grand finals set from the doubles tournament I entered. It's timestamped to the second set cause the reset the bracket. Now you can understand why @ Earthbound360 Earthbound360 and I espouse so highly of Zss and Ness.

 

Noa.

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Probably a different X. The X from Utah also mains Sonic. In brawl anyways, but I'd imagine he'd still main the same character in smash 4.
 

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Great matches there Noa (I could actually watch these ones lol). So very close, so intense.
I was rooting for you and STILL thought to myself "this strategy is dirty as hell" XD
There's just no 2v1ing this team. 1 fthrow from Ness and he gets like 30% back. He acts as a stock tank, and ZSS being as quick as she is can really just stay away and be a healer for the rest of the match as Ness dukes it out (as you did in game 3).

I'm fairly convinced that this is literally one of the best teams in the game. Pikachu G&W is pretty stupid too though, so I'm not sure if I can call it the best. Also, it seems like ZSS' dsmash doesn't revolve around Ness before healing him for some reason.

You PKF'd ZSS a lot though lol. And after all she had done for you!
Also, I noticed you opted for fthrow a lot more than dthrow in those vids. Any particular reason? Ness gets a ton of throw invulerability during dthrow (I'm sure you've noticed this change by now), and the flames hit other characters too.
And you need to try out PKF+ZSS dsmash sometime. It's almost as stupid as the heals :p
 

Pazx

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Holy **** that team is broken, however a lot of the heals you went for when both your opponents had stocks left weren't safe. If either of you are at 70% or higher, committing to a heal with a Ganondorf nearby is a horrid idea. This also extends to Diddy and other fast characters, it's simply too risky. You both need to be more careful with your PKF and paralyzer respectively, otherwise good gameplay. Pls no more uairs on ZSS :(

@ Earthbound360 Earthbound360 can you elaborate on the dthrow invulnerability?
 
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Earthbound360

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Holy **** that team is broken, however a lot of the heals you went for when both your opponents had stocks left weren't safe. If either of you are at 70% or higher, committing to a heal with a Ganondorf nearby is a horrid idea. You both need to be more careful with your PKF and paralyzer respectively, otherwise good gameplay.

@ Earthbound360 Earthbound360 can you elaborate on the dthrow invulnerability?
Throws have invulerability frames in this game it seems. I'm not sure if ALL of them do, but it seems to me like some have more than others, depending on the length of the throw animation. This allows you to complete throws more easily, as the opponent can't just walk in, and punch you in the face to interrupt it. Since Ness sits there and makes a well-done steak out of his opponent, he's got quite a few noticeable invulnerability frames on that throw (I think more than his other throws).

Just try it out in training mode if you have the time. Dthrow someone, then have another CPU try to bop you during the throw. You should notice some "clank" circles.
 

Waael

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Oh wow Good job on taking off six stocks in the crew battle. Your control of pk thunder is quite good, and you kept them off stage a lot.


I have the grand finals set from the doubles tournament I entered. It's timestamped to the second set cause the reset the bracket. Now you can understand why @ Earthbound360 Earthbound360 and I espouse so highly of Zss and Ness.

Thanks! Dude I could have had the Marth's last stock, I just knew I could I would have been able to take 7 stocks XD. THAT SHIELD BREAK THO!

And awesome Ness! I just watched your video :)


I thought X was from Utah? Or is this a different X?
Different X!
 

Noa.

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Yeah our play was very very sloppy. We messed up often and made lots of huge mistakes. It's why it went to game 5! lol. But I suppose it speaks to the power of the team that we can make so many huge mistakes and still win the set. It was our first tournament together in smash 4. We did do doubles a couple times in brawl but that was long ago and with Olimar and Peach.

If you would be interested in watching my play in singles though:

This was a set vs Ryo in Winner's semis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oVJxhu1hAQ

And this was a set vs Dolo in Loser's semis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOCvZ1vxFNA

This is the second time I've faced Ryo. Both times we've gone to game 3 so I'm proud of that. I still consider Ryo to be a better player than me so I'm happy with how I performed.

And this is my third set against Dolo. The first time we played each other was a month ago, where he took me to game 3 and beat me. And then in winners of this same tournament, I beat him 2-0 quite solidly; a two stock followed by a jv two stock. However this game he adapted back to me and I wasn't able to win again. We go back and forth though he's in the lead.
 

neomadgic

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Yeah our play was very very sloppy. We messed up often and made lots of huge mistakes. It's why it went to game 5! lol. But I suppose it speaks to the power of the team that we can make so many huge mistakes and still win the set. It was our first tournament together in smash 4. We did do doubles a couple times in brawl but that was long ago and with Olimar and Peach.

If you would be interested in watching my play in singles though:

This was a set vs Ryo in Winner's semis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oVJxhu1hAQ

And this was a set vs Dolo in Loser's semis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOCvZ1vxFNA

This is the second time I've faced Ryo. Both times we've gone to game 3 so I'm proud of that. I still consider Ryo to be a better player than me so I'm happy with how I performed.

And this is my third set against Dolo. The first time we played each other was a month ago, where he took me to game 3 and beat me. And then in winners of this same tournament, I beat him 2-0 quite solidly; a two stock followed by a jv two stock. However this game he adapted back to me and I wasn't able to win again. We go back and forth though he's in the lead.

I got the chance to watch the set with the Diddy. and you played pretty well, but here are some of my critiques:

1.) This was more prevalent in the duck hunt match, but I noticed that the Diddy was much more patient than you. He waited for you to over commit, then he went in for the punish. My advice is to play more patient in the neutral game. He knew that you were an aggressor and just waited for you to make a mistake.

2.) I noticed that you spaced a lot of fairs out against Diddy. Fair is a nice move, but if you trade hits (your fair with his fair), he will have a huge % lead on you. Maybe try spacing nairs, in case that a trade does happen, it'll be an even trade.

3.) I only saw you did this once, and he didn't punish you for it... But, never never never air dodge right after getting Dthrow by Diddy. Jump to safety. Diddys wait for that punish all day.

4.) This last one is just something that really bothered me... The Diddy didn't take advantage at all of the new ledge mechanics. Everytime he saw you grab the ledge, he backed off like a mile away, giving you free backs to the stage.
 

neomadgic

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Super sorry for the double post, but I didn't want to post this video in the same post as my critique, in case it might be missed.

But I would really like some expert advice on my Grand Finals set. I beat Triple R's kirby in Winner's Final 3-2, but he came back in grand finals to 6-0 me.

He got me pretty bad, and I had no answer for him. I have no idea how to land safely, the whole match I felt like I was being juggled.

 
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Ggjeed

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I notice you start out stronger and fizzle as you start losing. The fifth game was more of the same until your second stock where you put up a big fight. In general it seemed like kirby just transitioned from move to move faster than you, but game 5 you went into super speed mode and did a bit of good damage. Find someone with similar speed as the kirby and practice against them to get used to that kind of pressure. You also stopped trying to space him out with PKF after around game 2. I understand it's dangerous to use, but keeping it available might help (especially when landing). One thing I would suggest is throwing in more rolls. Times you didn't hold shield long enough he punished with quick attacks, times you held it long enough he grabbed. Kirby threw plenty of rolls in there to get around you. I write this watching the 6th match and you do roll a bit more in that one and it looked to make a difference.

To be honest you asked for expert advice and I am not an expert, but those are my thoughts.
 

revengeska

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Super sorry for the double post, but I didn't want to post this video in the same post as my critique, in case it might be missed.

But I would really like some expert advice on my Grand Finals set. I beat Triple R's kirby in Winner's Final 3-2, but he came back in grand finals to 6-0 me.

He got me pretty bad, and I had no answer for him. I have no idea how to land safely, the whole match I felt like I was being juggled.
First of all, as a fellow MN player I want to say that I highly respect your game. I remember playing you once at a tournament/smashfest for Brawl once years ago and I got my ass kicked. I've also played Triple R's Brawl Kirby for several hours of friendlies, and didn't win a single game(came close a couple of times, but got 2 stocked a lot). The level of advice you may actually need might be on the level of a NAKAT, since I know you're one of the best on these boards.

With that being said, it seemed to me like Kirby got behind you a lot. Largely grabs, but some attacks too. He rolled behind you a lot, but sometimes he just dashed behind you too. You didn't use dsmash at all that entire match(I don't think), have you ever thought about using it? I know it's not that great and I'm not in the habit of using it either, but it does manage to cover the backside quickly.

Oh, and I'm always looking to meet up with people for friendlies/training for Sm4sh, so if you're down let me know.
 
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Noa.

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 2, 2008
Messages
3,758
Location
Orlando, Florida
I got the chance to watch the set with the Diddy. and you played pretty well, but here are some of my critiques:

1.) This was more prevalent in the duck hunt match, but I noticed that the Diddy was much more patient than you. He waited for you to over commit, then he went in for the punish. My advice is to play more patient in the neutral game. He knew that you were an aggressor and just waited for you to make a mistake.

2.) I noticed that you spaced a lot of fairs out against Diddy. Fair is a nice move, but if you trade hits (your fair with his fair), he will have a huge % lead on you. Maybe try spacing nairs, in case that a trade does happen, it'll be an even trade.

3.) I only saw you did this once, and he didn't punish you for it... But, never never never air dodge right after getting Dthrow by Diddy. Jump to safety. Diddys wait for that punish all day.

4.) This last one is just something that really bothered me... The Diddy didn't take advantage at all of the new ledge mechanics. Everytime he saw you grab the ledge, he backed off like a mile away, giving you free backs to the stage.
I do have a problem with sometimes not being patient enough. I sometimes need to make my decisions more carefully.

The difference between spacing fairs and nairs depends on how Diddy decides to use his fair. If he does a rising or quick fair, it'll trade with our fair and we'll lose the trade terribly. If he does the fair at the apex of his jump or tries to do a late retreating fair then fair will catch him for free. Nair will usually trade with a rising or quick Diddy fair, and will be outranged if he goes for a retreating or well spaced fair. So sh nair is not the catch all option for dealing with Diddy's fair. But neither is sh fair. I should've been predicting and mixing in more sh nairs with my sh fairs. Another option that I was using against him in the previous set was just using pk thunder if he was trying to space fairs. It worked surprisingly well, but it's an option with heavy committment, so if he doesn't short hop we'll get punished for trying to use pk thunder.

Mixing up early airdodges, late airdodges, and doublejumps is all fine when trying to get out of dthrow follow ups. It's essential to slightly change up your timing of your airdodge or jump to avoid the uair followup. Sometimes it's ok to airdodge immediately after a dthrow. In the previous set he was never able to followup with an aerial after a dthrow at high percents. Because of that he had lots of difficulty killing me in the previous set and I won. In this set I did a poor job of mixing up my escape options, as well as not DI'ing the throw correctly. Thus, I died a lot.

And yeah he wasn't too great at putting pressure on me when I'm on the ledge.

Thanks for the advice. I'll keep it all in mind the next time I face a Diddy.

Super sorry for the double post, but I didn't want to post this video in the same post as my critique, in case it might be missed.

But I would really like some expert advice on my Grand Finals set. I beat Triple R's kirby in Winner's Final 3-2, but he came back in grand finals to 6-0 me.

He got me pretty bad, and I had no answer for him. I have no idea how to land safely, the whole match I felt like I was being juggled.

Ok so Kirby's dair is quite good and you had some trouble with it. Dair has quite a decent amount of range and lasts a very long time. Trying to beat it directly with uair, usmash, or utilt is not usually a good idea. Trying to shield grab it can also be difficult because Kirby will usually land behind you, and there's a landing hitbox on it as well. Trying to bait it out and punish the landing has a very tight window as the landing hitbox stays out for a while, and the window between the landing hitbox and the ending of the landing lag is a bit small. The best way to punish an incoming dair is to just run away from the dair and then pivot pk fire. If you predict that Kirby is going to dair you then pivot pk fire is your best option against it. Now pivot pk fire can be slightly dangerous. If Kirby baits out the pk fire from you and uses a double jump instead of dairing, you will be punished quite heavily.

Now for Kirby to make use of his Dair, he has to do it out of a full hop, or short hop double jump. Depending on where and when Kirby performs his jump, you can punish him. Kirby takes time to get into his proper positioning to use dair. The hitbox is only below him and it doesn't come out immediately, so he has to be quite high in the air to use it effectively. That combine with his slow dash speed and air speed means that you have a very large window to punish Kirby while he's in the air before his dair comes out. Now If Kirby runs up close to you and full hops to do his dair, you can just hit him with a nair, fair, or uair before the dair comes out. You have to jump with him, or shortly after him. I'm not really sure whether or not you can really do it on reaction. It might require a read. I don't have enough experience against Kirby to know for sure. Conversely, if Kirby tries to jump from a farther distance, you can just punish him by using pk thunder. This is actually a very decent option against Kirby if he's trying to approach you from high above with multiple jumps.

Kirby's dair is his main combo tool, and the easiest way for him to wrack up damage. It's vital that you learn how to correctly play against Kirby's dair. To summarize, punish him landing with dair by running away and pivot pk firing, hit hims with a fair, nair, or uair if he tries to full hop near you, and use pk thunder if he tries to position himself from farther away with multiple jumps. Those are the three best options to deal with Kirby's dair IMO. Try to punish it before the hitbox comes out, or when he lands. trying to fight the dair itself is very difficult I find.

Triple R was doing a lot of short hop fairs and bairs. When opponents are trying to wall you out with fast aerials there are a couple options you have. If they don't retreat it properly, you can punish their landing with a pk fire. If they are using an aerial at the apex of their jump, sometimes you have enough time to run up below them and sh nair. If you have space between you and their using a lot of empty hops and sh aerials, you can also pk thunder them. If the aerial they're shorthopping doesn't have a lingering hitbox that lasts until right before they land, you can also punish their landing with a dash attack, as it has great range and it's disjointed.

If you see someone positioning themselves for a trump, try to spam roll. If you can buffer the roll you can usually avoid the trump. I'm not sure if it's an infallible option against someone attempting to trump, but if you try to roll as as soon as possible it makes the timing for them really difficult.

When you're trying to land from getting juggled, you keep trying to use fair. When you were using fair you were using it way too early, and by the time you reached Kirby's height, the hitboxes for fair were gone. You were having a lot of difficult landing against Kirby. Nair is not too bad an option sometimes. However it's very easy to shield grab. There are two good options to take when landing if you think your opponent is going to shield. A great option is to just land with no aerial. Just land and immediately grab or jab when you land. If your opponent tries to initiate a shield grab when you land, you can usually jab to beat their shield grab. If you land without an aerial and your opponent hesitates while shielding, you can get a grab. Also while landing it's wise to do your best to land behind their shield. Just removing the option for them to shield grab you is very potent. The second option to do against someone trying to shield your landings is to hit their shield with a sweetspot bair, especially the back of their shield. Sweetspot bair has a lot of shield stun and shield pushback, and characters can't shield grab it. Because Kirby has low mobility, he also can't drop shield and dash into a punish. So when you're trying to land from a juggle, land with no aerial into a jab or grab, land behind their shield, or land with a sweetspot bair on their shield.

This set was actually entertaining to watch. Triple R clearly had you figured out, but it was fun seeing a proficient Kirby play. It's very rare to find good Kirby players. For what it's worth, I think the Ness Kirby matchup is probably even, or if not even then only slightly in our favor. I can tell you're a good player. Even though you were beat very solidly, he was punishing you off very small mistakes, and he just had a very good reading of you as a player. You didn't typically lose because of a couple of huge mistakes. It was a multitude of small mistakes that led to his victory. I really enjoyed watching your Ness. Do you have any VODs of a set that you win in?
 

PixelPerfect

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 30, 2015
Messages
78
Location
Canada
NNID
Link1182
Anyone have any critique on my Ness?
I find that my only issue is that I use PK Fire too often but I just want any feedback to help improve my game with him.
EDIT: Sorry for the video quality but I don't have the money to invest in a capture card so I just record straight off of the gamepad. Sorry about that.
 
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