Luigi's Doubles Discussion: Lucario

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Sure. go on ahead.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

I want to discuss about Ness.

 

[Yink]

Here to help, what do you need Lil? Who can stock tank...Ness can heal, and based on off of our PSI Magnet thread [ Click me ] Luigi can heal Ness approximately 10% per fireball. So I mean that's not too horrid, if you find some free time and need a heal or so you can do it.

Ness is pretty mid-weight, and with good DI can live up to 170-190ish..or higher perhaps. (I've done it so...I assume others can too).

Ness has the strongest throw in the game, and that makes for a quick KO at high percentages, and he's got PKT which with good timing can save Luigi.

Ness is a VERY good team mate. So is Lucas because they can KO fairly fast and do live and heal. Is there anything else you want me to talk about? Combos or things like that?

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Good Attributes - Ness got a good projectile, aerial game, decent ground game, he got the best b-throw which would totally benefit Luigi, and he have good DI like Luigi. Luigi can heal Ness while he can be the tank stock.

Bad Attributes - Ness gets grab release like Wario by a lot of characters w/ long range such as Marth and Snake. A smart opponent can mess up his recovery like edgeguarding, spamming projectiles to mess Ness player concentration of making back to the stage or G&W player can use the bucket to gimp his recovery. Plus Luigi and Ness have trouble w/ range.

Characters to watch out for - MK and Marth, possibly Snake, I know Luigi and Ness can handle Snake by juggling him up-close and avoid his tilts. MK can **** Luigi and Ness off stage.

Stage Picking - Luigi and Ness have a lot in common w/ the stages, but don't bring Ness to Yoshi's Island b/c his PK fire and PKT2 screws him over. FD, BF, SV, Delfino, Brinstar are good choices. Ness is decent on BF cuz it's hard for him to do PKT2 through platforms but overall he's good on it, the platforms won't screw up his aerials at all, but he should spam up-air below the platforms to rack up some damage.

Advance Team Techs - Luigi's grab > Ness's PKT2 or Ness's grab > Luigi's up-B.

Is the team viable - Yeah, I give it a 6 or 6 1/2, this team ain't bad @ all.


Edit - If you want to Yink, I basically know how Luigi and Ness do in doubles, me and oOTJayOo team up almost all the time, I'm used to playing Ness and teaming up w/ Ness in doubles.

 

[Ryos4]

I'm waiting for the rating for Luigi/Link team. Btw I'ma give the Luigi/Olimar team a 9. I guess we should discuss Peach.

U'll get it when the thread gets a little more input. Though the rating may differ since I'm adjusting the rating in terms of how good that team is based on other Link teams.

Also what do you think about Stage picks in terms of Link + Luigi?

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

U'll get it when the thread gets a little more input. Though the rating may differ since I'm adjusting the rating in terms of how good that team is based on other Link teams.

Also what do you think about Stage picks in terms of Link + Luigi?

Mostly the neutral stages, Pictochat and Delfino.

FD - This is where Link can try to dominate his opponents w/ his zair and spacing, it's the best pick for Link. It's good to bring opponents who does not have projectile.

BF - Link players can abuse up-smash or DAC and up-air below platforms. I need more input on BF for Link.

YI - This stage can be a problem b/c of the platform and shy guys. Link seems good on this stage due to his DI and surviving ability. Link survives more on YI than FD b/c of large blastzones.

I'll talk about Pictochat, Delfino, and SV a lil later on.

 

[hippiedude92]

i think ness/luigi is a really good team, if ever ness is in trouble getting gimped, luigi can easily save ness (nair/nado).

ness should be in the front making walls

i wouldnt mind switching both of these char's roles alot, support/aggro

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

So, should give this team a 6 or 7?

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

It is better than peach, its a 7 or 7.5, not a 6.5

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Doesn't PKT2 go through your opponent>

 

[Ryos4]

Well as promised.

The summary here. Though the rating might be different as stated above. Link being generally a bad teammate for everyone, but when it comes to who teams with Link, the ratings would probably change.
Rating: 5

Spoiler

Luigi: Punish
Carry- 4
Stock Tank- 6
Punisher- 9
DPS- 8
Energy Projectile (Punish/DPS)

Seems like another average team up for Link. Not really good but also not really bad. Its hard to say if this team up would be better or worse then with Toon Link without some real testing. I ended up rating it at 5 while someone went as high as 7 or as low as 3.

The main issue with this team is that they can't help each other's recoveries. Both of them do pretty porly vs MK as well (but not terrible). Luigi can help with the Falco/Diddy's of teams and Link can help Luigi approach as said with projectiles. In general they play off of each others' weaknesses.

Link can force an approach, Luigi kills like a madman.
+ Both characters are terrific at DI
+ Link can help Luigi approach/ "combo"
+ Luigi helps with the Falco/Diddy/D3 matchups, a LOT.
+ Both characters do well vs MK when they can force MK to approach, teams force MK to approach in general.
+- It isn't a common team, people won't have experience vs it
- Recovery.
- Is it the best Link teammate, probably not
- It is one low tier, one mid-high tier, no tierwhoring for money,

Out of 10, I give it a 7.5 Lean more towards a 7 if the opponents have actually faced a good link team, more towards and 8 if they have not.

Ok, imo, I think this team is not good cuz you ain't guys have trouble when u guys fight up-close? Link and Luigi's recoveries are very predictable, easy to edgeguard Link's recovery, eh I hate to say that. Link can get juggled easily by a lot of characters. Luigi and Link is very gud @ DI, Link should be the tank stock of the team. Link helps out Luigi in approaching while Luigi helps Link in close range combat. The best stages for this team is mostly neutrals cuz Link totally needs his space to zair and use his projectiles. Link has a lot of trouble w/ his match-ups in doubles cuz they can take advantage of pressuring him, juggling him, and edgeguarding him which gives him no option to do anything @ all. Luigi and Link can't support each other. I give this team a 3.5/10

Some things in common with most thoughts is that Luigi will be doing most of the fighting while Link will be supporting. Luigi can just tear people apart when he gets close, however he may have some trouble getting up close. This is where Link comes in with his projectiles to either help Luigi approach, or force the other team to approach. Either way helping Luigi greatly in his effort to get in close.

Though it is true that Luigi will have no means of helping Link recover as none of his aerials will actually send Link straight up, aside from Nair. Though it would probably put Luigi in a bad spot with its long duration. Link can help Luigi recover, though usually it wont be all that helpful, especially if he interferes at the wrong time and actually makes Luigi's recovery worse. All in all bombs is the only really help.

Though as a team, i do think they have some potential in general. If Link can work in jab locks or arrow locks as much as possible and then Luigi can just run around and fire punch everyone to death at a relatively early percent. Though the same could be done with a grab by pretty much anyone. But this way there is a little more mobility as well as the ability to just have Link do something as well.

With all that being said. I think Luigi could be decent. Definitely better then Link, Ganon, and Sheik. He may be around the same range as Toon Link without as much projectile interference and Luigi has better off stage gimping potential then TL. I would rate this as an average team, roughly 4-5.[/QOUTE]
A possible combo being Luigi's Nair>Link's Dair. But overall, it seems like Link has to try his best to throw people off balance enough that Luigi can sneak in some Fire punches for some early kills.

Stage Pick wise:
Luigi Mains opinion: Though it is weird that he based it all on Link which is really not what we needed... Anyway.

Mostly the neutral stages, Pictochat and Delfino.

FD - This is where Link can try to dominate his opponents w/ his zair and spacing, it's the best pick for Link. It's good to bring opponents who does not have projectile.

BF - Link players can abuse up-smash or DAC and up-air below platforms. I need more input on BF for Link.

YI - This stage can be a problem b/c of the platform and shy guys. Link seems good on this stage due to his DI and surviving ability. Link survives more on YI than FD b/c of large blastzones.

I'll talk about Pictochat, Delfino, and SV a lil later on.

Seems like Large stages, anything to push Link's survival ability as a stock tank and to make use of his camping capabilities. Also giving Luigi some space do work when needed. Though idk if i agree with BF as many Links seem to have trouble there. But if it was me i would go with BF just since Luigi could probably take advantage of it and Link could stay below the platforms to protect him from aerial assaults. BF also has the low platforms that can allow the Utilt into shielded opponents into Jab lock if they aren't careful.

Once again overall average team for Link. Luigi fight all around but also handles off stage, Link support with projectiles, forces approaches, and helps Luigi land some killing blows. Link should look for any sort of jab/arrow lock opportunities to allow Luigi the early kills he likes. With some work this team should be pretty good.

A little lacking in discussion. Though being a doubles thread, any discussion is good.

Though also for your side for a possibility for further discussion. Heres a nice little summary of what Link can do in doubles in general, if this board wants to take a deeper look.

Spoiler

Range attacks are more about recovery aid (for you and your partner, bombs always launch up), stopping offstage recovering opponents, and confusion/distractions. Not damage like 1 vs 1s projectiles are too slow. Bombs and boomerang can seriously destroy spacing. Arrows fly far when charged or SH/jumped.
Direct uncharged arrow and bomb spacing:

(Distance of) 1 quickdraw, 2 SH arrow, 3 jumped arrow, 4 weak bomb toss, 5 Forwards thrown bomb, 6 SH/jumped Forwards thrown bomb.

Really good contributions so far. Keep it up!

Doubles is probably my favorite thing to do. It's a shame that Link isn't the greatest team partner, not only that I'm not much of a team player.

I use to place pretty well with my doubles team: "The Hyrule Kings Of Swing" = Scabe (Link) + Silfa (DK).

But ever since a tournament where we got dominated by MK's and didn't win a single match, we've been thinking over what to do with our team.

Anyways I'll start of with just talking about Link.

Pros:

• Good at living to high percents provided that he doesn't get gimped.
• He's got some reliable kill moves that kill around 120
• Projectiles are good for damage racking.

Cons:

• Slow and somewhat a big character
• Projectiles get in the way and hit your ally
• Bad recovery
• Low tier character with many bad matchup

Overall Link doesn't look too bad as a team partner. He's got some decent stats, his biggest weakness are that he can't carry a team to victory and that he has large interference issues.

I think that Link would work best with a characters who any characer who can carry and punish:
Marth, Lucario

But in general look for Punishers, Assist and characters with good defensive support (to help his recovery) and try to avoid characters that have any interference issues since Link is already a big interference issue:
MK (Carry/Assist)
Wario (Tank/Punish)
Kirby (Punish)
Game and Watch (Punish)
Ike (Punish)
Luigi (Punish)
Bowser (Tank requires baby sitting though/Punish)
Jigglypuff! <3 (Punish/assist)

Carry:
Link isn't a character you can to rely on as it's main source of achieving victory. He has many bad matchups.

Stock Tank:
Link regularly lives above 150+ with his amazing momentum cancel. If only his recovery wasn't so bad, its easily gimped which takes away alot of this living potential.

Punisher:
His best kill move is Dair, it has great vertical knockback and kills early at around 100%, find ways to use this move in teams.

Apart from Dair, he's got many other decent kill moves such as Fsmashes, Dsmash, Up B, second hit of fair and others like Ftilt, Uptilt, Up air,

DPS:
His projectiles are good for dealing slow chip damage. Bombs are good for combos such as Full Hop > Bomb Throw Down > Fair/Nair.

Decent Offensive Support:
I don't really know what this means but I'll take a guess. Zair would be a great support when your partner is fighting the opponent while your on the other side of the opponent.

Dealing with Link's Large interference:
It's a big learning curve teaming with Link since he's got projectiles flying everywhere. Your partner will have to learn how to get around your projectile spam, and you will have to spam in a way that is easy for your partner to deal with.

Give yourself some limitations such as:

• Don't spam in the direction of your partner.
• Full hop and throw bombs down

General Tips:

• Keep an eye on the whole screen and watch every character is.
• A team that works together will do much better than a team that does 1v1.
• If the oppurtinity arrives where you can 2v1 an opponent always take it.
• Play to your character strengths

Link Tips:

• Up B out of shield could be a good way to clear some space for Link.

Combos:

• Find ways to land Link's Dair, the higher and less DI'd the throw is the easier it is to land his Dair.
• Find team combos with Link's full hop bomb throw down. Think of the possibilities!
• Link's down throw may have a good set up to an aerial hit from your team mate. This is only a guess coz usually it's easily DI'd. Most of his throws are easily DI'd. Just experiment what you can do with them.

Videos:

Scabe
Link + DK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E1xgWLFkLE
Link + ROB: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rWMdRqQFBo

Kirin + WIll: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba02LQZBRcM

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Link

I really like this summary about Link, I totally agree about that it's hard for Link to help Luigi to carry the team to victory. I know that Link have potential, but it would be difficult to work w/ Link throughout having bad match-ups, bad close combat game, and bad counterpicks such as RC, Brinstar, and Frigate. But when it comes to high tiers, it seems like Luigi would be doing all the work while Link tries hard to tank stock as much as possible, with all this being said and what I said on the Link double discussion thread, my 1st thought was 3.5 but I'ma say 3 (Luigi's side) and I agree w/ a 5 (Link's side). What you guys (Luigi's) think?

Ness

I'll stick w/ 7 on the Luigi/Ness team. U guys ready move on to the next character?

 

[Ryos4]

Actually, based on the talk around the Link boards. Brinstar is one of Links better stages, Lava helps him recover, also allows Link the ability to predict knock back of enemies and Dair. Destructible parts may get in the way of the projectiles, but can be handy for extending hit box duration as well as being places for bombs to explode (vertical pieces). When that stage falls apart, there is a lot more room to run around and play defensive camp as well as it being close to the edges of the screen allowing Link easier access to the ledges when recovering. Also ive heard that it has a low ceiling which vertical kills are easiest to get with Link with Dair,Utilt, Usmash, and Dsmash.

Sooo if Luigi can handle that stage well, i suggest going there.

 

[makoforce]

Wat about marth and luigi

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Wat about marth and luigi

ive tried it in tournaments, doesn't work at all. No good team combos and they don't work well together.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

I guess we'll discuss Marth, lemme update, Marth shouldn't be that bad on teams, I bet the reason why y'all said Marth is not good on teams cuz he's pretty much overrated and get ***** cuz of the same fair > side smash and other predictable shiz, a lot of those marths needs help to rly space correctly.

 

[mikeHAZE]

marth can do really well in teams, you just have to have a character or team mate that supports your play style. in teams, you're only as good as your team mate (though that goes with any character)

shrug

 

[hippiedude92]

I guess we'll discuss Marth, lemme update, Marth shouldn't be that bad on teams, I bet the reason why y'all said Marth is not good on teams cuz he's pretty much overrated and get ***** cuz of the same fair > side smash and other predictable shiz, a lot of those marths needs help to rly space correctly.

you must fight bad marths on a daily basis good sir.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Pretty much, yeah...

 

[hippiedude92]

I bet the reason why y'all said Marth is not good on teams cuz he's pretty much overrated and get ***** cuz of the same fair > side smash and other predictable shiz, a lot of those marths needs help to rly space correctly ]

i'm assuming you do fight bad marths on a daily basis, because, why would a marth always do a fair to side smash? LOL. i'm guessing good marth doesn't space and doesnt mix it up.

marth in teams with luigi, is not so bad, and not so great. marth+ luigi lose to metaknight which is a highly popular character in teams. plus the team has no real answer to tornado / double mk (except marth's counter) marth gets ****ed up when hes being juggled and can get gimped sorta easily in dubz and being 2v1'd

the only good thing i can only see with this team is marth making the wall / applying pressure to the team, and luigi pretty much supporting with kills. if marth is offstage, luigi can just nair/tornado to save him.

i did this team sorta alot with mintyflesh last year, marths better off as attacker and stuff.

 

[HyL!]

i've only teamed with fox link mk and snake, i've got no idea on everything else D:

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

I've played many Marth players on AIB, lot of them are not good, but I found one that is good w/ his spacing and know when to land a hit, Raytay. He's on ladders.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I've played many Marth players on AIB, lot of them are not good, but I found one that is good w/ his spacing and know when to land a hit, Raytay. He's on ladders.

Marth
Sucks
Terribly
On
Wifi
Any character that requires either legitimate spacing or tech skill is terrible on wifi (that doesn't have some dumb strategy that works better on wifi).

Regardless, I have teamed offline with a Marth, Luigi isn't a good character as a team, their strategies don't work well together (2 spacing chars, they don't help each others bad matchups). Also, their kill style is oppposite, one being vertical and the other being horizontal. Luigi can't really help marth to recover either and the opposite is kinda true as wel. It's a 4 or 5/10. It is not that either of these chars are bad in teams, it is more the team doesn't work well together.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Good Attributes

Believe or not, Marth got good matchups, very good range b/c of the tip of his sword. He's good @ spacing if the player knows how to land a hit on his opponent and knows what is he doing.

Bad Attributes

Marth can get juggled easily, he can get easily edgeguarded. His recovery is decent, but players can just wait for to do his 2nd jump > up-b and edgeguard him. Marth is not good @ killing if he gets a tipper.

Characters to watch out for

Wow, I would say MK and Snake, but nah b/c Marth suppose to be good on match-ups such as Kirby, G&W, Olimar, Mario, Ness (w/o grab release infinite), Lucario, etc. Imo, Marth seems to get wrecked on teams.

Stage Picking

Marth really excels in playing on stages that have platforms like BF, YI, Delfino, and PS1 cuz of his up-smash, up-tilt, f-air, and n-air.

Advance Team Techniques

None, I believe.

Is this team viable?

I give this team a 4 or 5 cuz Marth seems like a bad choice to team up but he ain't the worst partner for Luigi I can say, plus a lot of Marths don't know what they're doing when it comes match-ups to be in their favor.

 

[hippiedude92]

luigi can help marth recover ,just nair / tornado / fireball lol lve done this so many times with mintyflesh

but marth can't really do opposite, just double mk like literally **** this team (like at least 85% of the time u see in teams)

lil g, marth isnt good at all wifi, there's like no good wifi marths to my knowledge. but you should actually play a marth that actually knows the matchup from both sides (myself and minty from top of my head)

 

[Megavitamins]

Gerlad marth does very good against snake in teams >.>

the only team that outright rapse marth is double mk

idk about marth / luigi, me nd hippiedude need to teams :3

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

I've played a smart Marth, he knew what he was doing, he got the spacing and does the dancing blade very well, takin advantage of my range when I try to approach up-close. So wuts the ratio for Marth, 4 or 5?

 

[hippiedude92]

Gerlad marth does very good against snake in teams >.>

the only team that outright rapse marth is double mk

idk about marth / luigi, me nd hippiedude need to teams :3

baby cakes its been a year already how can u forget

<33 minty

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Internet relationships......o_O

 

[Megavitamins]

lol i meant we need to team agian... last time was like apex when dire and bum still played rofl

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

I'm going w/ a 4 for Marth. What you guys think?

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

give it a 5, its ok, there are much worse choices.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Hmm ok, 5 seems good for us. We should discuss Lucario.

 

[Steam]

I can't see it being a very good team at least compared to other Lucario teams since Luigi isn't good at tanking/planking and anubis like strategies are what make Lucario teams great. Thankfully luigi has stupid killpower so auraboost won't be super duper important . Luca will probably have to support/tank since luigi's obviously going to do most of the dirty work since he's a close range character... I really don't see much chemistry between them though.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Luigi is good @ both planking and tank stock. He can edge plank > luigi's cyclone to mess up someone's recovery like Snake. Luigi got good DI and live up to like 170%

 

[Steam]

yes but if someone goes MK none of that works... but MK destroys every team without MK on it it seems. >.>

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Lucario is one of the best team partners due to tanking and Lucario's aura.
Both of these characters survive a long time and each of them can help pone another.
Both of these characters do well on similar stages.

My main issue is that both of these characters are punishment based and I don't see either of them doing well vs Projectiles and a slight weakness to MK.

7/8 of 10.

 

[boss8]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeId9WmJ_lE

THIS

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Ahh yes, I remember that match back in 09. *smirks*

 

[jbandrew]

Why haven't you guys rated MK/Luigi yet?

Imo MK is Luigi's best partner. (aside from Olimar)