Data Luigi Match-up Discussion Thread

[Shuckle_SSB]

I can't find any videos of him.

 

[G. Stache]

I can't find any videos of him.

I've got you

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BZLFINF9WeM

Very good set, imo. I think that was the tournament I was talking about earlier.

 

[Shuckle_SSB]

Lol the biased commentator was silly to watch xD Luigi_Player is a pretty good Luigi.

 

[Yonder]

So many u smashes...like watching that makes me feel I should be using it even more. I noticed with Concon too they never go for more than D throw to u smash out of a grab. Is it just not worth it at higher levels now to try to get a more extended combo? I'd fear for u smash staling too.

 

[Shuckle_SSB]

The reason they do Dthrow to Usmash at 0% is to get the regrab on fast fallers, since it send them behind Luigi.
Honestly, ConCon has better grab combos than shown here. And better gimp application lol.

 

[MonkeyArms]

Since the thread down there is a couple years old, I'll repost in this thread

Rosalina VS Luigi

The matchup is sooooooo bad.

If the Rosalina has any idea on how to use side b, consider yourself SCREWED. You have no fast option to deal with it and trying to get past it with defensive options just pushes you back. So, you have to jump. What are your options now?
A. Down B.
B. Nair.
C. Air Dodge into one of the above options.
D. Tomahawk. (situational as normally it doesn't work.)

At this point, your playing a game of rock paper scissors, and even then, if you win, your reward, on average, is 12 percent.

The Rosalina tries to up air you. At this point, air dodge.
The Rosalina shield grabs. At this point, use down B.
Now the Rosalina holds shield. Problem: Reaction times. Any of your options will be beat simply by reactions. Your only good option is to try and force luma into hitstun with down B. But that gets punished.

You are put in the air. Now, you are forced to read when Rosalina is going to use up air with an air dodge. Even if you guess right, sometimes its a frame trap.

You're offstage. Rosalina is going to try and down air you, no matter how you try to recover. Why? The rapid jab setup Rosalina has doesn't work on Luigi at the ledge, due to his huge jump. You are basically forced to recover from the same spot every time to because luma just meat shields your fireball recovery. Its not hard for rosalina to gimp you. That's a problem.

Now, on the bright side, you CAN edge guard rosalina if you perform it right. It can be a little hard sometimes, but its doable.

Here are your options for dealing with Luma:
Jab (if you can get in on that side b far enough)
Up Smash (Their landings)
Down Smash (Quickest option)
Down B (Your landings)

Did I mention grabs get punished half the time?

Overall, its a real rarity you'll win this matchup with Luigi, but if you played PERFECTLY, then I can see you winning. 70:30, though for me personally, its 75:25 (Both in Rosalina's favor obviously)

 

[---]

http://smashboards.com/threads/match-up-discussion-vs-luigi.434357/

The M2 board is looking at Luigi next, we'd appreciate any thoughts and opinions you may all have in regards to this match up.

I'll just assume I don't need to tag Yonder either.

 

[Shuckle_SSB]

How does the Fox vs. Luigi MU look for Luigi?

 

[Mileo279]

Its fine for luigi. He's combo food, easy to gimp. and he doesnt outspace us. But he can juggle luigi very well

 

[sims796]

Its fine for luigi. He's combo food, easy to gimp. and he doesnt outspace us. But he can juggle luigi very well

Good. Got tired of reading about how Luigi struggles in this match-up or another.

 

[hey_there]

How does the Fox vs. Luigi MU look for Luigi?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aL_4_4FFzMY

 

[Shuckle_SSB]

Thanks guise

 

[Aquatics]

How does the Fox vs. Luigi MU look for Luigi?

at lower level and mid level play its 65-35 because luigi destroys him off stage. on stage fox is combo food. If you hit fox out of his side b , you can easily down b gimp his up b. Fox just can up air luigi well and RAR b-air is good because luigi slides

 

[Yonder]

at lower level and mid level play its 65-35 because luigi destroys him off stage. on stage fox is combo food. If you hit fox out of his side b , you can easily down b gimp his up b. Fox just can up air luigi well and RAR b-air is good because luigi slides

Although I think Luigi wins, but not to that degree, don't forgot Fox has things going for him also. He has a massive mobility advantage and a reflector, making it easy for Fox to approach while hurting Luigi's own approach. And basically everyone destroys Fox offstage, it's kind of Fox's universally big weakness.

Also...careful of Fox killing Luigi off the top of the screen with Firefox.

 

[Alexis357]

I'm quite surprised people says that Luigi wins over Fox, does Luigi isn't know to have problems with fast characters ? Myself I have problems with Fox mains that seems to like playing Super Smash Bros. Melee, I can take the first stocks due to Fox' weight, but it's quite painful to chase him.
His fast fall nature remains a good advantage for combos and edge-guarding, but ... His Up Smash is our big monster, sometimes confirmed with his down-air.

Maybe I just need to learn more the matchup.

 

[Aquatics]

Although I think Luigi wins, but not to that degree, don't forgot Fox has things going for him also. He has a massive mobility advantage and a reflector, making it easy for Fox to approach while hurting Luigi's own approach. And basically everyone destroys Fox offstage, it's kind of Fox's universally big weakness.

Also...careful of Fox killing Luigi off the top of the screen with Firefox.

You can powershield the fireball and get a grab off of it. Juggle fox and abuse his weaknesses at certain levels of play

 

[Shuckle_SSB]

Top players seem to universally agree that Fox slightly loses the MU, but it is still winnable. For an example watch Xzax v. Mr. ConCon on YouTube. It is a video from one of the 2GG "saga" events. I'm not sure which one exactly, sorry. I have limited internet acces atm to check. I am pretty sure it is from the False Awakens though.

 

[Aquatics]

ive seen it . xzax just exploited luigi

 

[Ghazis]

Well this thread died down fast lol
Anyways
In an attempt to give it some life, I'd like to ask
Hows the Mario vs Luigi MU?
I'd say prepatch it was in Luigis favor no questions asked
But after the nerfs and seeing how far Mario's meta has evolved I'm starting to think it's an even mu

My friend is a Mario main and he's been my training partner for a year now
We use to both say Luigi won the mu
But now we both agree if Mario doesn't over commit to anything , uses his mobility to its fullest and doesn't do anything unsafe on shield it can easily be a 50/50 mu
But, I have another friend that's a Mario main
That always says "the mu is in Luigis favor get over it. Mario can't combo Luigi, Mario gets gimped easily by Luigi, Mario can't gimp Luigi, all Luigi's moves are safe on Mario's shield "
And I think to myself, stop challenging Luigi head on
Use your mobility with a hit and run strategy and you should win

Luigis attacks do more damage but most moves have a long cool down, or sends you far back enough that it doesn't combo into itself for long
But Mario can use his moves in rapid succession
Meaning as Luigi , if you don't place everything well you're most likely going to be punished by a random combo
Since Luigi and Mario both have frame 3 Nairs anything aside from a true combo will be stopped in its tracks
Which both of them have low % combos so it doesn't matter too much
Marios uair>up b combo is safe vs Luigi because Luigi can't fall fast enough to punish it

Both of their smash attacks are safe on shield
Marios is a bit safer due to Luigis sliding

When it comes down to killing I think they're even
They both have back throws
Mario has a fair spike
Bair kills at decent %
Dair kills earlier than cyclone but can be air dodged or Nair out of like cyclone
Usmash
Dmash comes out 1 frame faster which doesn't seem like much, but at high % last stock this makes all the difference
Fsmash on both them is actually interesting
Luigi's is 3 frames faster but doesn't have much range
If Mario and Luigi are side by side and fsmash most times Mario's will connect because it covers more range and it pulls his hurtbox far enough that Luigi's fsmash whiffs and he takes a fsmash
Still both ridiculously fast moves, with great killing power

For Luigi's kill options he can do his smashes, cyclone spike, most of his aerials kill at a decent %
The only thing is with Luigi's slow mobility he basically telegraphs when he wants to kill with an aerial

In this MU they can both really destroy each other with a couple of reads
It can go either way
If luigi can read everything Mario's doing Luigi will dominate
If Mario uses his mobility to the max and walls Luigi out Mario can dominate as well
There are alot more points I want to go over but I want to order pizza , hopefully someone replies and gives me there inputs on this mu
Maybe I'm missing something
Maybe Luigi wins this mu hands down and I'm missing something
Maybe Mario's meta has evolved so far Mario's think this MU is easy if you know what to do
I don't know i just want some outside input on the matter lol

 

[RequiemRedStar]

I do feel like Mario is better off doing hit and run and keeping a bit of distance, maybe trying to exploit Luigi's recovery a little more. While Mario obvious has utilt for days and combos on most of the cast I feel like Luigi SHOULD be more dangerous in this matchup when it comes to close combat.

Luigi's poor airspeed makes it a bit easier for Mario to try punishing landings or get dat dere Usmash, but at the same time the chosen few who can pull off Jumpless Cyclone have that extra off stage threat...

 

[dhif24]

How do we deal with a very campy Link? It's very difficult to get in through the rotation of projectile spam (alernating bomb, bow, bomb, boomerang). Once I get in its goodnight but Link seems to have crazy knock back on all his moves so you make one mistake and its back to the spam party

 

[Alexis357]

How do we deal with a very campy Link? It's very difficult to get in through the rotation of projectile spam (alernating bomb, bow, bomb, boomerang). Once I get in its goodnight but Link seems to have crazy knock back on all his moves so you make one mistake and its back to the spam party

Hi. Here is my opinion : While Luigi can have some troubles with campy characters as , and urgh ... , there are always some tricks or strategies that you can use. For my part, against a campy character, I rushdown to him with my shield oriented in front of me, then de-shield, re-shield etc ... And the apocalypse begin for the opponent.

But you can use other tactics, as keeping on the edge with your shield or grab it to force the opponent to approach, I don't recommand you this, as some people can be brain dead and continue to camp.

Luigi is quite known to have poor approaches or risky ones, sometimes Luigi's Tornado can be viable, but you should mash your button to raise and be safe if you failed to hit. You can also try to bait with Green Missile by keeping your b button pressed, and release it 1 frame before Luigi is tired. Don't forget that this move can protect you from some projectiles.

Hope it helps, if you even have problems with run away characters tell me, it should be less difficult than campers but the tactics might be different.

 

[dhif24]

I guess its kind of silly because it would never happen in tournament play but basically the only way my friend will beat me is by sprinting from one end of the stage to the other and just going HAM on the projectiles lol. The frustrating part is it gives me great trouble but surely its just me being dumb and there is easier ways to counter act the projectile storm - I guess its time to work on the powershield walk!

 

[RequiemRedStar]

I stand by the powershield walk method. However with Link and Toon Link things become a little tricky once I get within dash grab range because by the time I get into that range they are already in standing grab range and can mix that up with jabs to try and keep me out.

 

[dhif24]

I also don't like how link can do a forward smash, pause for a second and then do an even more powerful forward smash, not sure what it kills us at exactly but feels like 60% from ledge and maybe 80-85% from centre stage

 

[RequiemRedStar]

It's true, the smash is pretty powerful. The main mixup I see once I finally get in that close is between tether grab, a quick fair (moreso for toon link) and jab. I rarely find a Link good enough online to provide a challenge once I powershield through the spam, but at local tournaments this can be pretty scary

 

[Ghazis]

Alright guys I ran into my weaknesses
Corrin, Ness and Villager
Thanks to the replies above I've improved a lot vs villager , though the extremely campy ones still give me trouble
With corrin , I feel she just bodies Luigi
Like nair keeps Luigi out hard
Dair is safe on his shield , to an extent , it's hard to cyclone spike her because of her enormous disjointed up b
But if I can grab her I can do major damage
Then I drop a combo a little , get hit by nair and its back to fishing and hoping a random side b/side smash doesn't tipper and kill me at like 70


And Ness
I don't know what it is but I have no idea what to do vs him
I get freed up terribly by how mobile and aggressive / campy he can be
Any advice on how to fight this ?


Also cloud is troublesome but I learned a couple of combos for him

 

[RequiemRedStar]

All I can give are my vague-ish ideas based on how I've dealt with players I've personally fought.

Corrin is pretty rough, definitely takes patience. I feel like you really need to draw that line between when you can safely move in and punish and when you cannot, because Corrin is pretty hard to punish as Luigi and what he really wants you to do is dash in and catch a tipper to the face because you thought you'd be fast enough for a dash grab or you thought you could sneak an fair in. In this case I like to inch forward, powershield, or fake like I'm heading in and wait for him to screw up. I feel like well spaced nairs and bairs out of shield are great to do, since you'll be shielding a lot.

As for Ness, I feel like a lot of Ness mains think their aerials are super positive on shield and that they can therefore land with aerials all day without getting punished. Maybe it's just the ones I face, but I tend to get a ton of shield grabs off them.

 

[Ghazis]

All I can give are my vague-ish ideas based on how I've dealt with players I've personally fought.

Corrin is pretty rough, definitely takes patience. I feel like you really need to draw that line between when you can safely move in and punish and when you cannot, because Corrin is pretty hard to punish as Luigi and what he really wants you to do is dash in and catch a tipper to the face because you thought you'd be fast enough for a dash grab or you thought you could sneak an fair in. In this case I like to inch forward, powershield, or fake like I'm heading in and wait for him to screw up. I feel like well spaced nairs and bairs out of shield are great to do, since you'll be shielding a lot.

As for Ness, I feel like a lot of Ness mains think their aerials are super positive on shield and that they can therefore land with aerials all day without getting punished. Maybe it's just the ones I face, but I tend to get a ton of shield grabs off them.

I agree with the corrin idea and I'll definitely try it
But online play vs that is probably the worse

And Well with Ness I usually get stuffed by PK fire , I get juggled pretty easily by PK thunder and since Ness is a floaty with a frame 3 nair he is pretty hard to combo (ironically cause Luigi is the same ) but his nair sends you at an offstage disadvantage which can set up for more juggles
Then if you try approaching with fireball and don't pay attention to the distance it's an easy down b for him and a 10% recovery
I always feel like as hard as I outplay a Ness I always get cheesed and lose
I definitely need a good Ness to beat the MU into me

 

[RequiemRedStar]

Yeah online makes some stuff pretty impossible.

As for pk fire I actually like when they throw this; depending on the latency and how far back I am I can usually tap shield and punish. PK thunder can be annoying but I usually try to drift around it or nair it.

You're right in that MU experience is a big factor; there are certain characters we all develop a mental block against due to lack of familiarity

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

FalKoopa , @J.Miller , @ThunderSt0rm - Do any of you think it might be time to re-assess the Luigi-Diddy Kong matchup? I observe this matchup religiously and whenever I see it at the mid-top level, Luigi is the one that comes up short, despite virtually every Luigi and Diddy Kong player agreeing that the matchup is slightly in Luigi's favor. Now, it could be that Luigi players just aren't as disciplined as Diddy players, but that assumes Luigi players "don't work hard enough" and... I've seen some Luigi players mash, and stick with the character despite his nerfs to find new combos and whatnot. So I'm reluctant to fall back on that as the reason.

For those who want to check, here is a list of VS. matches (tournament sets) that good Luigi players have lost when playing against Diddy Kong:

Big Lou vs. C3PO (Momocon I think?; Lou did beat MVD immediately beforehand, though)
Boss vs. MVD (one of the S@Xes)
Elegant vs. MVD (2GGT: KTAR Saga)
Elegant vs. James (PCB #81; to be fair, James does have a Luigi on the side and appears to have originally mained him, so it might have been that James knew everything Elegant would go for)
Elegant vs. Legit (Legit double-eliminated Elegant with a reset in Grands; the tournament was Let it Shine III, unfortunately it wasn't streamed)
Elegant vs. Zinoto (2GGT: ZeRo Saga)
Elegant vs. itswillyo (one of the MSMs)

There are a few good Luigi wins too. ZD has several wins on C3PO, as does Boss. Additionally Concon has wins over Nietono and ZeRo. but I feel the most recent examples I listed above are a bit more relevant.

Elegant's only win on a Diddy is vs. K9's Diddy, and Elegant is an extremely good Luigi. He adapts well to characters like Fox, Sheik, and Bayonetta (with wins on Charliedaking, Captain Zack, and JK). If he struggles with Diddy it must be a weakness of Luigi's (if ConCon beat all the Diddy Kongs that Elegant lost to I would just chalk it up to a player-specific weakness rather than a character-specific one). His consistent losses to the character must mean that maybe Diddy Kong doesn't lose as badly as everyone says. I know "one set doesn't determine the MU" but I have several high level sets listed up there. They must count for something.

I just wanna know what y'all think. I just don't see any Luigi vs. Diddy Kong sets corresponding to MU charts everyone makes. They're more accurate to Mario, Olimar, Bayo, and even Fox, but Diddy is an anomaly.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

Nvm, I think it actually does have more to do with player style than character weaknesses. I also forgot the golden rule that sets don't determine MUs given Smash 4's nature.

 

[Jaabir]

I know Luigi he destroys kirby

 

[Luigisama]

How updated is this thread? Was it changed every patch?

 

[RobC]

I'd like to raise a question about Pac-Man and his trampoline.

Say you attempted to cyclone gimp Pac-Man but he whipped out trampoline to recover. He bounces once, bounces twice, and before he can descend to bounce off the yellow trampoline you catch him in another cyclone and drag him down to the yellow trampoline.

We all know the next bounce turns it red and the next character to touch the trampoline after that falls through.

If you fast fall use cyclone and catch Pac-Man could you drag him down, bounce yourself off the trampoline first thus canceling cyclone before the last hit, and let him fall through the red trampoline? Or would Pac-Man stay below Luigi and hit the trampoline first?

 

[Awesomeperson159]

How does Luigi win 55:45 vs Meta Knight? Luigi (a slow, floaty, character that struggles against disjointed characters that aren't easy to punish) doesn't beat Meta Knight (a character with a pretty big disjoint with no lag to speak of and can kill floaties off of a punish). Also, it's pretty hard to edgeguard Meta Knight, because of the speed of Shuttle Loop, the versatility of his recovery, and the invisibility of Cape. I think this is a 40:60 MU, maybe a 45:55 if you can gimp MK, but I can't see why Luigi would win this.

Also, I can tell this was made pre-patch, because there is no way Luigi has a winning MU against post-patch Marth. Marth outranges Luigi by quite a bit, and the reason it was so good before was the copious amounts of lag on Marth's moves, which was toned down a lot in almost every patch since 1.0.6. The better frame data means Luigi finds it harder to get in, and can't do as much when he does. I think this is definitely a 40:60 for Luigi, and maybe a 40:60 or 45:55 vs. Lucina.

A character I have trouble with is Duck Hunt, because DH outspeeds Luigi, outranges Luigi, outcamps Luigi, and the lag on his moves doesn't matter too much against a character this slow. The only thing Luigi really has going for him in this MU that I can see is that Duck Hunt's recovery is laughably exploitable, especially with the Cyclone gimp. Also, if DH whiffs a smash at close range he's pretty screwed, because Luigi can deal a good amount of damage and force DH offstage. I think it's a 40:60, though it might be higher or lower.

The rest of the MUs are pretty accurate, though Rosa and Shulk might do better against Luigi and Luigi might do better against DK.

How updated is this thread? Was it changed every patch?

It hasn't been updated since 2015. It doesn't even have DLC characters.

 

[Luigisama]

How does Luigi win 55:45 vs Meta Knight? Luigi (a slow, floaty, character that struggles against disjointed characters that aren't easy to punish) doesn't beat Meta Knight (a character with a pretty big disjoint with no lag to speak of and can kill floaties off of a punish). Also, it's pretty hard to edgeguard Meta Knight, because of the speed of Shuttle Loop, the versatility of his recovery, and the invisibility of Cape. I think this is a 40:60 MU, maybe a 45:55 if you can gimp MK, but I can't see why Luigi would win this.

Also, I can tell this was made pre-patch, because there is no way Luigi has a winning MU against post-patch Marth. Marth outranges Luigi by quite a bit, and the reason it was so good before was the copious amounts of lag on Marth's moves, which was toned down a lot in almost every patch since 1.0.6. The better frame data means Luigi finds it harder to get in, and can't do as much when he does. I think this is definitely a 40:60 for Luigi, and maybe a 40:60 or 45:55 vs. Lucina.

A character I have trouble with is Duck Hunt, because DH outspeeds Luigi, outranges Luigi, outcamps Luigi, and the lag on his moves doesn't matter too much against a character this slow. The only thing Luigi really has going for him in this MU that I can see is that Duck Hunt's recovery is laughably exploitable, especially with the Cyclone gimp. Also, if DH whiffs a smash at close range he's pretty screwed, because Luigi can deal a good amount of damage and force DH offstage. I think it's a 40:60, though it might be higher or lower.

The rest of the MUs are pretty accurate, though Rosa and Shulk might do better against Luigi and Luigi might do better against DK.

It hasn't been updated since 2015. It doesn't even have DLC characters.

One year later