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Luigi General/Social

TxB | Ramsaur

Smash Ace
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Dec 19, 2012
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Ramsaur
I'm posting this in the melee luigi and P:M luigi boards.

I've been struggling against captain falcon lately. And I've never seen Abate lose to a captain falcon, even Hax. So my questions are: Does Luigi counter captain falcon? If so, how so? And what are some general tips I can use to improve my new luigi (that I picked up purely for the CF matchup) Thanks friends!
 

Hulka

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 22, 2013
Messages
71
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SoCal
I'm posting this in the melee luigi and P:M luigi boards.

I've been struggling against captain falcon lately. And I've never seen Abate lose to a captain falcon, even Hax. So my questions are: Does Luigi counter captain falcon? If so, how so? And what are some general tips I can use to improve my new luigi (that I picked up purely for the CF matchup) Thanks friends!
I'd say the match up is 45 - 55 in falcons favor, so luigi definitely has the tools to win. His gimps are crazy against falcon, and luigi can wavedash under falcons nair and up smash. You can bank off of grab combos, and juggle falcon forever. The bad things are is that falcon can grab combo luigi is well, and has more range then luigi. Down throw to knee at high percent is almost free, and nair can juggle luigi pretty well. Also the knee destroys luigi, so watch out for that
 

Vist

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 13, 2003
Messages
2,059
Location
Pasadena, Maryland
I'm posting this in the melee luigi and P:M luigi boards.

I've been struggling against captain falcon lately. And I've never seen Abate lose to a captain falcon, even Hax. So my questions are: Does Luigi counter captain falcon? If so, how so? And what are some general tips I can use to improve my new luigi (that I picked up purely for the CF matchup) Thanks friends!
I'd say the match up is 45 - 55 in falcons favor, so luigi definitely has the tools to win. His gimps are crazy against falcon, and luigi can wavedash under falcons nair and up smash. You can bank off of grab combos, and juggle falcon forever. The bad things are is that falcon can grab combo luigi is well, and has more range then luigi. Down throw to knee at high percent is almost free, and nair can juggle luigi pretty well. Also the knee destroys luigi, so watch out for that
Alright so I agree with Hulka for the most part but I feel like falcon tends to have a bit of an edge in this match-up, maybe more than 45-55 would imply. I personally used to suck against falcon so I'm kinda biased lol but I still think this is one of Luigi's hardest.

Abate hasn't lost to a falcon recently but he has had some close sets for sure. IMO, he is really good at this matchup and probably a better player overall than most of the falcon mains out there so I wouldn't expect him to lose but he has yet to play like S2J, wizzrobe etc in tourney as far as I know. His win over Hax's falcon was definitely impressive, but I don't think Hax was ever particularly good against Luigis compared to his overall skill when he mained falcon. Vudujin had some very close sets with Hax in the past and both Eddy and I went back-and-forth against him in friendlies at Evo 2013 as well (if you count friendlies >_____>).

I'm mostly just thinking in terms of results between of some of the better-known luigis and falcons matching up in tournament to base this matchup off of, and here's some of them off the top of my head:

- Abate beat Darkrain 2-1 at BH4.
- Abate beat Scar at BH4 (Score unknown)
- Abate beat Hax's falcon 2-1 at Zenith 2013
- Abate lost to Scar's falcon 0-2 at Apex 2013
- Vudujin lost to Hax's falcon twice at Apex 2014 (the one in losers's was a close 1-2 I believe)
- Vudujin lost to Hax's falcon 1-2 at Apex 2013
- Eddy Mexico beat S2J 3-0 then 3-2 at SSS 3/30/14
- Eddy Mexico lost to S2J 3-2 at SSS 9/08/13
- Eddy Mexico lost to SilentSpectre 0-2 at Evo 2013
- Blea Gelo beat Ghatzu somewhat recently, including CEO Prologue 2014
- Blea Gelo lost to Wizzrobe 2-0 at CEO 2014

I couldn't really think of any recent noteworthy results for myself or any of the other Luigi's against good falcons, but if anyone has some, feel free to add and excuse my ignorance =(.

So anyway, in addition to what Hulka said, I think one of the most important things to remember vs falcon is that you should DI falcon's dthrown down + away, which will allow you to throw out an uair right before you would get kneed (works at a big range of percents). Aside from that, stay grounded and combo like a madman.
 
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BluEG

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Messages
287
So anyway, in addition to what Hulka said, I think one of the most important things to remember vs falcon is that you should DI falcon's dthrown down + away, which will allow you to throw out an uair right before you would get kneed (works at a big range of percents).
Wow. Never thought to do this. Thank you.
 

woodtrims

Smash Rookie
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Oct 12, 2014
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9
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Maryland
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Vist, next xanadu please dress in full luigi costume and put melted butter on the bottom of your shoes.
 

BlackJellyBean0

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 4, 2014
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2
After I know how to WD and L-cancel and other advanced techniques, what should be some of my next training moves?
 

BluEG

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Messages
287
After I know how to WD and L-cancel and other advanced techniques, what should be some of my next training moves?
Perfecting wavedash from ledge and wavedash from a dash/dashdance are extremely important.
 
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Madcowdesease

Smash Cadet
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Mar 15, 2007
Messages
58
Location
madtown
Hey guys I got some questions:

1.) how do you guys deal with a fox that "fullhop camps" and basically just goes around the stage waiting for you to commit to something large enough for them to punish? I can't find an easy way to punish fullhops regardless if I know they are going to fullhop or not. Tips?

2.) What's the optimal DI against sheik's downthrow at mid-low pcts? I know when its high pct it's just based on stage/position because she gets the fair/uair for free, I used to DI slightly up and away to avoid ftilt-->fair, and the sheiks I played just used uair (with little to no followup), but I played against better sheiks and they just straight comboed me regardless?

3.) I know powersheilding is super useful against lazers, but are there any other tools or specific spacing ranges I should be using/aiming for in neutral against falco? I've seen blea gelo use upwards angled ftilts and abate spaces so he cc's the tips of nairs (so the shine would miss even if he was slow) and downsmash, any other helpful stuff?

4.) techchasing--I've asked vudujin this before, but he says his techchasing is nearly 100% reactive, but I was wondering if other people had non-reactive or multiple option-coverage options (ie. wd-->turnaround downsmash to cover tech in place and tech away?) I've been testing some stuff against falcon and fox where I just straight up run towards them after downthrow, and crouch-dsmash if they flash green/tech in place, and wd->grab if they techroll either direction on reaction (being slow a bit is also ok cuz a lot of people will shield expecting a downsmash or something. I'm not sure if im getting most of them legitimately, or if I have some subconcious "read" on my opponent. I've also been trying to do WD-->fullhop instant nair when I'm reacting slowly to cover oos options and be relatively ok on shield, dunno how fraudulent that is...But my point is, anyone have any other specific spacing locations or option coverage techchase maneuvers they'd like to share?

4.)b.) anyone have any techchasing mindgamy "tricks" they do? Examples: On high platform techchases sometimes I shorthop immediately before my opponent even gets to land to scare them from notech->getup attack and then fastfall doublejump downb on the plat to follow tech options. Or another one I use against tech in place-->rollers is wd backwards to their spot, shorthop, then bair if they stay in shield to waveland grab, or directly waveland and regrab to wherever they rolled, etc... Share?

5.) grab followups on peach: are there any true followups (DI or no DI dependent?) or nah?

6.) platform edgecancels--how did players like eddy mexico and vudujin get so consistent at these? I can't jump far enough from the stage to practice long charge lengths due to low horizontal aerial mobility...did you guys just get friends to hit you offstage and practice or is there some kind of visual cue that I'm missing?

7.) Is the head part of luigi's upsmash intangible during charge or only when the hitbox starts coming out? I saw a day ago about how falco's legs are intangible even during charging when he's doing a downsmash. If it is intangible, are there niche uses for it?

8.) upb frame data: so in the luigi frame data thread it says that his upb comes out frame 5, and is invincible on frame 5, but the oos options thread (http://smashboards.com/threads/out-of-shield-options-frame-data.294336/) says that upb would hit on frame 7, and invincible frame 6, which makes no sense since considering the 1 frame of jumpsquat to get out of shield, and interrupting the jumpsquat to do up b would result in frame 6 for both hitbox and invincibility for one, and frame 7 hit and frame 6 invincibility for the source. Which one is correct? and considering sheiks perfect nair oos is an excellent option to get out of pressure, would pressure thats extremely close to luigi/shield di towards a hit be a viable situation to use upb to punish/get out of pressure regardless of the lowness of the spacies aerial on shield??

lets get this forum hella active again, cuz hell I don't have any luigi players in my local facebook groups.
 
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BluEG

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Messages
287
Hey guys I got some questions:

1.) how do you guys deal with a fox that "fullhop camps" and basically just goes around the stage waiting for you to commit to something large enough for them to punish? I can't find an easy way to punish fullhops regardless if I know they are going to fullhop or not. Tips?
Challenge with a full hop chop or dair, you can catch their landing with an uptilt or up smash (Luigi's head is invulnerable so its great to catch opponents falling with an aerial)

This type of fox is very hard to deal with. It's something we must just accept as luigi mains that people will camp us because our combo/punish game is very strong.

2.) What's the optimal DI against sheik's downthrow at mid-low pcts? I know when its high pct it's just based on stage/position because she gets the fair/uair for free, I used to DI slightly up and away to avoid ftilt-->fair, and the sheiks I played just used uair (with little to no followup), but I played against better sheiks and they just straight comboed me regardless?
First off, try your best not to get grabbed by Sheik. If you do get grabbed, you're pretty much ****ed at any percent but most of the time I think the lesser of two evils is to take an upair to the face rather than a fair, so I DI Up and Behind Sheik typically.

3.) I know powersheilding is super useful against lazers, but are there any other tools or specific spacing ranges I should be using/aiming for in neutral against falco? I've seen blea gelo use upwards angled ftilts and abate spaces so he cc's the tips of nairs (so the shine would miss even if he was slow) and downsmash, any other helpful stuff?
Again, Upsmash is very useful here, OOS and a dash -> upsmash. Like you said, Upward Ftilt is very strong, it can catch falco as he does ledgehop lasers. I'm very weak in this matchup so I don't think my opinion is valuable here ;P

4.) techchasing--I've asked vudujin this before, but he says his techchasing is nearly 100% reactive, but I was wondering if other people had non-reactive or multiple option-coverage options (ie. wd-->turnaround downsmash to cover tech in place and tech away?) I've been testing some stuff against falcon and fox where I just straight up run towards them after downthrow, and crouch-dsmash if they flash green/tech in place, and wd->grab if they techroll either direction on reaction (being slow a bit is also ok cuz a lot of people will shield expecting a downsmash or something. I'm not sure if im getting most of them legitimately, or if I have some subconcious "read" on my opponent. I've also been trying to do WD-->fullhop instant nair when I'm reacting slowly to cover oos options and be relatively ok on shield, dunno how fraudulent that is...But my point is, anyone have any other specific spacing locations or option coverage techchase maneuvers they'd like to share?
4.)b.) anyone have any techchasing mindgamy "tricks" they do? Examples: On high platform techchases sometimes I shorthop immediately before my opponent even gets to land to scare them from notech->getup attack and then fastfall doublejump downb on the plat to follow tech options. Or another one I use against tech in place-->rollers is wd backwards to their spot, shorthop, then bair if they stay in shield to waveland grab, or directly waveland and regrab to wherever they rolled, etc... Share?
You can do some similar things with uptilt I guess, but I find most techchasing to be 100% reactive as well, unless you find a pattern in your opponents teching (whether they tech towards ledge/away). You can also condition your opponents to tech a certain direction...this is kinda weird but I'll try to explain. If in tech situations you tend to wavedash to the right, your opponent will see the commitment and typically tech to the left. You can prepare for this by wavedashing right (to bait the tech left) and simply dash to the left (this stops your wavedash) and input another wavedash and then grab/dsmash/uptilt them.

5.) grab followups on peach: are there any true followups (DI or no DI dependent?) or nah?
OOO!! This one is fun actually. You have to be quick though or you'll get naired. Up-Throw -> Up-Air -> Nair -> Double jump anything works most of the time at 0% and nets 50-60%, it may be DI dependent but its pretty easy to get these combos, just got to be verrrry careful.

To kill peach at mid -> high percent (and all floaties and midweights for that matter) is to downthrow and then turn around chop or Nair for the kill. If they Di you can sometimes Wavedash into an Upsmash.

I also really like forward throw -> wd regrab


6.) platform edgecancels--how did players like eddy mexico and vudujin get so consistent at these? I can't jump far enough from the stage to practice long charge lengths due to low horizontal aerial mobility...did you guys just get friends to hit you offstage and practice or is there some kind of visual cue that I'm missing?
It comes naturally with time. I can't describe how I do it or how I learned it beyond becoming familiar with how far luigi's missile goes unconciously.

7.) Is the head part of luigi's upsmash intangible during charge or only when the hitbox starts coming out? I saw a day ago about how falco's legs are intangible even during charging when he's doing a downsmash. If it is intangible, are there niche uses for it?
Only when the hitbox is out. Takes out airborne opponents, notably falco when he dairs or a big dumb ganon.

8.) upb frame data: so in the luigi frame data thread it says that his upb comes out frame 5, and is invincible on frame 5, but the oos options thread (http://smashboards.com/threads/out-of-shield-options-frame-data.294336/) says that upb would hit on frame 7, and invincible frame 6, which makes no sense since considering the 1 frame of jumpsquat to get out of shield, and interrupting the jumpsquat to do up b would result in frame 6 for both hitbox and invincibility for one, and frame 7 hit and frame 6 invincibility for the source. Which one is correct? and considering sheiks perfect nair oos is an excellent option to get out of pressure, would pressure thats extremely close to luigi/shield di towards a hit be a viable situation to use upb to punish/get out of pressure regardless of the lowness of the spacies aerial on shield??
Hmmmmmm....no clue haha.

lets get this forum hella active again, cuz hell I don't have any luigi players in my local facebook groups.
Agreed......I'd love to see some more insight from the top Luigi's too :)
Where you at vist/blea/rofl?
Also, I don't think i've seen a post on here from abate or eddie like....ever haha.
 
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Hulka

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Oct 22, 2013
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Vist offers a lot of input, but he's the only top luigi who does. Blea does sometimes too, but not as often
 
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BluEG

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Messages
287
Blea has told me in the past that he has a lot of trouble expressing his thoughts in English, not sure if text/writing would be easier for him but in person that is the case.
 

P@RA

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 28, 2014
Messages
21
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NJ/NY/Boston
Does anyone have any suggestions for ledge options against Marth? I've been trying waveland to spot dodge but I was wondering if there are other options that I could switch it up with from time to time. Thanks!
 

Madcowdesease

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 15, 2007
Messages
58
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madtown
Does anyone have any suggestions for ledge options against Marth? I've been trying waveland to spot dodge but I was wondering if there are other options that I could switch it up with from time to time. Thanks!
my practice partner is a marth so I know some stuff. At the most basic level of interactions, if he's dash-dancing somewhat far away--ledgehop fireball regrab to ledgedash is pretty good; crouching marth spamming dtilt is beat by ledgehop-->nado-->clank-->anything, same for a f-smash heavy marth if you aren't confident in ledgedashing can also be answered by ledgehop nado; and finally the marths that like to spam autocancelled nairs/fair wall can be beat by a nice invincible ledgedash to any smash attack.

A more knowledgeable marth will respect luigi at the ledge due to his invincible and clank options (and thus be further in the stage), and at that point, it's about understanding what the marth wants to do to you. If you're high pct he might be fishing for a side b-->uptilt or an fsmash, so a short ledgedash to run-->shield will bait out a lot of stuff like that and give you the advantage. If you're standing right by the edge within fsmash distance, sometimes doing a downb and getting hit by the gauranteed cc-->fsmash the opposite way is better than any other option.
 

Madcowdesease

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Sorry for the double post, but I think something that is not readily available for new luigi players is dealing with a lot of common microsituations--basically the top 3 (abate, eddy, blea) all deal with these situations differently, but new players don't actually understand that there are "danger zones" and ''possible huge advantage" situations that many players don't realize.

One super obvious one is a situation im sure every luigi player runs into quite a few times in a match: your opponent is in recovery for something--but it's not directly punishable because you are in shield and at that distance close enough that wd oos will take too much time, and rolling/wdoos away == a loss of stage control. What is normally an advantageous or neutral situation turns to a negative situation. A lot of players struggle with this because our primary form of movement is inherently inferior (but also superior) in some ways. There will always be the 15 frames of lag for any significant horizontal movement that we commit to. Many times when I'm not sure, I just retreat to the ledge, but I've recently started incorporating walking into my game to significant gain. Lets look at this situation again. You can wd oos in place. and walk to a positive space on the map. AT worst, a lot of situations go back to neutral, and when your opponent respects you in these situations, that's when you can do those dumb tricks like abate's thing where he shorthops over towards you and slowly falls with the threat of an aerial until the last second when he does a nair that shieldpokes or they move/roll away and he wavelands and kills them.

These tools can't be viable tools until your opponent respects you. Sure, we can punish a lot of things (like marth's tipper fsmash on shield lol) that other characters can't, but we also have shortcomings, and you have to realize that there is an inherent weakness in our movement, and eliminate the opportunities in which our opponents can take advantage of that. Make them respect you by choosing to be safe while maintaining stage control, wding is not the answer for everything.

Please share other microsituations and other common mistakes that luigi's make and how we can improve.
 

BluEG

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Messages
287
Blea says just walk. When you WD your walk is like super charged for a moment too.
 

Toasted David

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luigi is cool.

But real talk, I hate luigi vs sheik and vs marth. And there are so many Sheiks and Marths at SSS.
 

Madcowdesease

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luigi is cool.

But real talk, I hate luigi vs sheik and vs marth. And there are so many Sheiks and Marths at SSS.
Luckily my practice partner is a marth, and it's really not SUPER bad and only kinda frustrating. lemme know if you are struggling in any specific situations.
 

Toasted David

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Luckily my practice partner is a marth, and it's really not SUPER bad and only kinda frustrating. lemme know if you are struggling in any specific situations.
Just approaching marth in general. I know shielding his fsmash and wave dashing out of shield is a huge thing, but a lot of times I'll just be sitting in shield in anticipation of the move. I am just terrified of the sword.
 

Hulka

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Oct 22, 2013
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luigi is cool.

But real talk, I hate luigi vs sheik and vs marth. And there are so many Sheiks and Marths at SSS.
Tell me about it. I had to play sacasumoto to get out of pools, and I barely know the matchup as it is, and managed to win. Edge guarding is crucial and luckily pretty easy, just refresh invincibility on the ledge, wait for shiek to land on stage and punish her accordingly
 

Toasted David

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Tell me about it. I had to play sacasumoto to get out of pools, and I barely know the matchup as it is, and managed to win. Edge guarding is crucial and luckily pretty easy, just refresh invincibility on the ledge, wait for shiek to land on stage and punish her accordingly
At SSS? Pretty sure I watched that match.
I feel like I have to play totally different against Sheik, and I don't know exactly how...
 

Madcowdesease

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Just approaching marth in general. I know shielding his fsmash and wave dashing out of shield is a huge thing, but a lot of times I'll just be sitting in shield in anticipation of the move. I am just terrified of the sword.
It really depends on what type of marth you are playing, pay attention to what you are getting hit by in neutral. A good marth will primarily focus on taking space from u using dtilts and reactive side b's out of dash dance. I don't know your level of control, but having precise control over your spacing by utilizing walks, crouching to slow to wd's, and varying the lengths of your wd's to open up a marth are essential because there are relatively large gaps in his defense if he tries to wall you out with attacks. But if a marth is rapidly taking your stage control without FEAR, utilize downb to clank with his reactive tilts/side-b, and wd-upsmash oos. Bad marths will provide trouble by throwing out attacks, and downb is amazing in this context. A marth that respects luigi will not be as immediately intimidating, as he will initially not take space so fearlessly, so you need to basically play safe and space around him.

Basically the entire point is that luigi's entire toolkit is made obsolete by marths tilts + sideb besides utilizing edge invincibility (get amazing at this btw--when im playing on point I can get perfect ledgedashses with invincibility to more than 1/3 of battlefield and I can imagine that's pretty scary), which means you need to do stuff to make him afraid of doing tilts/sideb. A bad marth will be easily defeated by downb, a better marth requires patience to crack.
 

P@RA

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What stage do you prefer against Marth's? I find myself doing better on FD because I get abused by Marth too easily on platforms, but I only have one dimension to approach him.
 

BluEG

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What stage do you prefer against Marth's? I find myself doing better on FD because I get abused by Marth too easily on platforms, but I only have one dimension to approach him.
Honestly....I think FD is the worst stage vs Marth by a large margin. Against very good Marths, it's very hard to get out of a juggle without platforms.

As far as good stages, I like Dream land and Pokestadium. Lots of space to wavedash around to avoid his big dumb sword :)
 
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Madcowdesease

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What stage do you prefer against Marth's? I find myself doing better on FD because I get abused by Marth too easily on platforms, but I only have one dimension to approach him.
Yeah fd is probably my least favorite against marth. I like pokemon stadium and yoshi's, but I have a very strong/reliable ledgegame with good ledgedashes that allow me to threaten stage control with my stupid invincible head. If you're not comfortable on or around the edge yoshi's probably isn't preferable.
 

Toasted David

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It really depends on what type of marth you are playing, pay attention to what you are getting hit by in neutral. A good marth will primarily focus on taking space from u using dtilts and reactive side b's out of dash dance. I don't know your level of control, but having precise control over your spacing by utilizing walks, crouching to slow to wd's, and varying the lengths of your wd's to open up a marth are essential because there are relatively large gaps in his defense if he tries to wall you out with attacks. But if a marth is rapidly taking your stage control without FEAR, utilize downb to clank with his reactive tilts/side-b, and wd-upsmash oos. Bad marths will provide trouble by throwing out attacks, and downb is amazing in this context. A marth that respects luigi will not be as immediately intimidating, as he will initially not take space so fearlessly, so you need to basically play safe and space around him.

Basically the entire point is that luigi's entire toolkit is made obsolete by marths tilts + sideb besides utilizing edge invincibility (get amazing at this btw--when im playing on point I can get perfect ledgedashses with invincibility to more than 1/3 of battlefield and I can imagine that's pretty scary), which means you need to do stuff to make him afraid of doing tilts/sideb. A bad marth will be easily defeated by downb, a better marth requires patience to crack.
Thanks man, I've been trying to think about spacing during a match a lot more. Especially against marth. Against a bad marth I have no trouble just going in and staying in, but man good marths don't take any of that ****...
 
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CASHMONEYDOLLABILLS

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May 23, 2014
Messages
29
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Canada
Just wondering but has anyone done a lot of exploring on luigi's SH dair into a FF nair? I can't quite tell if it's safe on shield with the shield stun from the dair.
So I did some coffee induced practice with this with the 20xx hack pack;and i'm not sure if this is the norm but when I set it for Marth to have infinite shield, if I hit his shield, he tries to grab out of it. Using this, I practiced this for awhile and got shieldgrabbed every time. Realizing this, I was wondering if there is any other way to pressure Marth's shield safely and I found that a well-spaced bair is safe on Marth's shield.

if you space the bair just right, Marth cannot shield grab you. The cool thing is, if he does try to shieldgrab you, you can put out a second bair right before you hit the ground. Or, you can put out both bairs on shield and still be safe, with only 7 frames of lag if you hit the l-cancel.

When the player is expecting your double bair, you can also just waveland out of the first bair instead of commiting.

Thought you weegees would like this.
 
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P@RA

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May 28, 2014
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Do any of you guys plug in your controllers with the shoulder buttons partially/completely pressed? I noticed an improvement in specifying my wavedash distances but a decreased accuracy in L-cancels.

Does anyone know the benefits of doing this? I heard that taking out the springs essentially accomplishes the same thing. Also, what top players (if there are any) do this?
 

Stride

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Feb 22, 2014
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North-west England (near Manchester/Liverpool)
Do any of you guys plug in your controllers with the shoulder buttons partially/completely pressed? I noticed an improvement in specifying my wavedash distances but a decreased accuracy in L-cancels.

Does anyone know the benefits of doing this? I heard that taking out the springs essentially accomplishes the same thing. Also, what top players (if there are any) do this?
Plugging in the controller with the trigger pressed down will make you unable to lightshield with that trigger, which might be useful so you don't accidentally lightshield when trying to powershield. However, you still have to press your finger down just as much as you would otherwise to reach the hard press since you still have to overcome the resistance of the spring, so the lack of lightshielding is the only advantage; you won't be any more physically comfortable, nor will you be any quicker in reaching the hard press.

With that method, you can also keep the trigger pressed down partially at all times so that you don't have to press much further to hard press, but this is uncomfortable and pointless when you can just remove the spring for a similar but better result.

I remove the spring from my right trigger because it puts much less strain on my finger when I'm wavedashing frequently. I never need to use the light press with that trigger anyway (I use the R button for airdodging and the L button for everything else), so there is no downside to it apart from things like it being slightly harder for me to use controllers that aren't similarly modified if I have to borrow them, and being unable to use that trigger at all in Smash 4 and certain other Gamecube games (it can still be used in Brawl because Brawl only registers the hard press, whereas Smash 4 only registers the light press; hence why many Brawl players remove the springs from both triggers of their controllers).

I can't see any reason for disabling the light press to improve wavedash distance precision, except for the placebo effect. If you have a problem with timing the airdodge then it might very slightly improve that, but the distance is because of the control stick, not the trigger.

Your L-cancel accuracy being reduced is because you're still L-cancelling with the same timing as you did before; since the light press is no longer registered the trigger has to be pressed down further before the L-cancel takes effect. You should technically be L-cancelling with a light press every time (it's not as important with Luigi compared to fast-fallers but it's still significant), so you don't want to disable light presses on the trigger you use for that.

If you use one trigger for wavedashing/powershielding and don't use that same trigger for lightshielding or light-press L-cancelling, then I would strongly recommend you remove the spring from it. It's a very simple modification to make that keeps your finger healthier and more comfortable with no in-game drawbacks.

I don't know which players do this; it's pretty rare but I'm sure that at least some do.

You can also cut the spring to a shorter length instead of removing it.
 
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P@RA

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Thank you Stride that's extremely helpful. It's not illegal to have your controller like that in tournies is it?
 

Stride

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Thank you Stride that's extremely helpful. It's not illegal to have your controller like that in tournies is it?
It's not illegal in any tournament I've seen (including my locals and majors such as Apex), and I've never heard of any player getting caught/penalised/banned for using a controller modified in this way. One would also be hard-pressed to give a reasonable argument for banning it.

The rulesets are sometimes phrased in an ambiguous way, possibly to the extent that they technically ban more controller modifications than intended (such as purely aesthetic ones); in this case the rules are not enforced as written. Regardless, controllers are never checked or anything like that. Not to mention that the modification is not readily apparent by looking at the controller (someone would have to inspect it; they can't tell while you're playing) and is never apparent from the gameplay, so there would be no reason for your controller to be checked in the first place.
 
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CASHMONEYDOLLABILLS

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yo again weegees

I found that if you wavedash back towards the ledge and spotdodge, you will still fall to the ledge after the spotdodge completes. This could be used as a mix - up sometimes. I only tested it on battlefield and idk if this is a known technique or not.

A few questions for fellow luigis:

What is the best way to edgestall?
like, what has the most invincibility frames / is there a frame - perfect invincible ledge stall?

Currently I do the airdodge stall but that has a few frames of vulnerability no matter how fast I perform it and if I do it to fast Luigi doesn't grab the ledge at all and dies. :( I also drop ledge and hold up and away while I jump, which causes Luigi to spin around in the air, and then you have a few options. Luigi has a lot of ways to attack of the ledge for edgeguarding but if you burn that jump and get hit you're pretty much dead.

What are the most reliable options off the ledge?

Also, totally unrelated.
How do all of you approach playing Peach?

I don't find it too hard but when I get downsmashed it sucks. My strategy now is to avoid peach when she's low percent and try to poke her out enough to launch her into the air, and then I go for some basic uair / weak nair juggles. Usually kill with sweetspot nair or usmash.
 

Stride

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I found that if you wavedash back towards the ledge and spotdodge, you will still fall to the ledge after the spotdodge completes. This could be used as a mix - up sometimes. I only tested it on battlefield and idk if this is a known technique or not.
The ledge momentum thing is known; Abate makes pretty heavy use of it. You can do the momentum thing with pretty much anything (up tilt, jab, down smash, etc.). It's the result of a universal mechanic; doing a move forces you not to fall off the ledge but your momentum still keeps getting applied every frame until it's supposed to finish (the momentum that would otherwise have been applied during the move is skipped/ignored, and it carries on getting applied as normal afterwards).

What is the best way to edgestall?
like, what has the most invincibility frames / is there a frame - perfect invincible ledge stall?
A thread on ledge stalling: http://smashboards.com/threads/luigi-stall.345572/

You can intangible Haxdash but it's really hard/risky. Otherwise it's fastest to drop and fastfall and jump back up. I remember the airdodge stall being mentioned in another thread, but I'm not sure whether it's any faster. Even if it is, it's riskier because you can't aerial/up-B/cyclone/airdodge if the opponent grabs the ledge like you can with jump stalling.

What are the most reliable options off the ledge?
Ledge options (assuming you're talking about getting back onto the stage):
• Regular stand, regular ledgeroll, and regular ledge attack, obviously.
• Regrab ledge.
• Jump->aerial (forward aerial mainly).
• Drop->immediate up aerial/forward aerial. Situational; only hits them if they're right next to the edge and they can still just crouch cancel, and it leaves you really vulnerable for relatively low reward anyway. You have to up-B to get back after the forward air but after the up air you only have to jump to get back.
• Cyclone (super situational/gimmicky).
• Ledgedash (you can do fully intangible ledgedash->buffer roll, or you can shield or down smash or pivot grab->throw offstage or whatever). This gets you right back to center stage quickly/safely. You should/will be doing this a lot (probably most of the time).
 
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ThegreatVaporeon1

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Why would you use Luigi as a CF matchup, in melee no less..

If you're having trouble with CF, use sheik who is his worst matchup.
 

ThegreatVaporeon1

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Because luigi is a fun character
Sure, but its very difficult to use him in melee because his matchups are awful. While falcon isn't as bad, it's not easy for the green plumber. You have to severely outplay your opponent in the top 8 to do well with him.

I mean if you truly want a falcon counter, sheik is definitely the easiest choice.
 
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Griffard

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My opinion on the Luigi-Falcon matchup has gone back and forth. I started beating a Falcon who was around as good as me in locals last year, but the matchup felt hard. I leveled up, and now I beat a local Falcon often who is considered around my level or slightly better than me. At Paragon in friendlies I mostly got dumpstered by good falcons, but I took friendlies from Gravy (got 3-0d in a MM tho), and had a "close 2-0" with Gahtzu. These are players I would consider clearly in a tier above me, and they play Blea Gelo, and I still didn't get dumpstered.

Luigi has an easy easy time comboing and setting up edgeguards, and he doesn't get guaranteed down-throw kneed at a lot of percents. Grabbing ledge late to set up for waveland on->chop, shoryuken, reverse chop, bair, etc. is gdlk against Falcon. Throw combos are ludicrous. If you are getting bodied by Falcon players, chances are you're not moving well enough and you're not maximizing your punishes. Also work on combo DI. Falcon may have the advantage, but it is NOT greater than 60-40, and I think it's closer to even than that.
 

BluEG

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My opinion on the Luigi-Falcon matchup has gone back and forth. I started beating a Falcon who was around as good as me in locals last year, but the matchup felt hard. I leveled up, and now I beat a local Falcon often who is considered around my level or slightly better than me. At Paragon in friendlies I mostly got dumpstered by good falcons, but I took friendlies from Gravy (got 3-0d in a MM tho), and had a "close 2-0" with Gahtzu. These are players I would consider clearly in a tier above me, and they play Blea Gelo, and I still didn't get dumpstered.

Luigi has an easy easy time comboing and setting up edgeguards, and he doesn't get guaranteed down-throw kneed at a lot of percents. Grabbing ledge late to set up for waveland on->chop, shoryuken, reverse chop, bair, etc. is gdlk against Falcon. Throw combos are ludicrous. If you are getting bodied by Falcon players, chances are you're not moving well enough and you're not maximizing your punishes. Also work on combo DI. Falcon may have the advantage, but it is NOT greater than 60-40, and I think it's closer to even than that.
Exactly this. The matchup is volatile in the sense that both characters punish eachother extremely hard. You have to get the punishes nd you're golden.
 

Stride

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I collected some data on ledge-teching Marth's forward smash and down tilt during up-B. All of this was tested in develop mode on Final Destination (I don't know how other stages would affect things; Battlefield's ledges in particular may have a significant effect) with Luigi at approximately 130% (I don't know how that would affect things either). It also hasn't been tested particularly thoroughly, though it should still be fairly accurate.

The number of SDI inputs required to tech the wall varies depending on how close/high Luigi is. Furthermore, the distinction between "above the ledge" and "beside the ledge/near-sweetspot spacing" is fairly subjective; hence the required number of SDI inputs are sometimes given approximately. The further Luigi allows himself to fall after a successful wall-tech the closer he can drift to the wall, which reduces the number of SDI inputs required to be able to tech it.

When close to the ledge (nearly touching, as would occur when dropping from the ledge and then up-B sweetspotting back to it) Luigi can:
• Ledge-tech Marth's forward smash without any SDI or ASDI into the wall in most cases, though if you heavily overshoot the sweetpot (by approximately half of Luigi's body above the ledge) then you will need to ASDI or SDI in.
• Ledge-tech Marth's down tilt using 1 SDI input into the wall. Under some circumstances no SDI or ASDI is required (I believe this is when Luigi is just below the lip of the stage, leaving him closer to it as he gets knocked away during the hitlag; it doesn't happen very often).

Luigi can avoid both down tilt and forward smash with the correct up-B spacing (a "perfect sweetspot").

Situations after a ledge-tech
Up-B early (going above the ledge):
• Can avoid a shallow forward smash or down tilt by being out of range. Marth can walk forwards enough to allow a forward smash or down tilt to connect if it would not otherwise do so.
• Can tech a forward smash with approximately 3 SDI inputs.
• Luigi is too far away from the stage to SDI a down tilt into the wall.
• Above a certain height it is clearly impossible for Luigi to SDI far enough to tech.

Up-B late (barely above the ledge at the most; near-sweetspot spacing):
• Can avoid a very shallow forward smash or down tilt by being out of range (though not to the extent possible with a higher up-B). Marth can walk forwards enough to allow a forward smash or down tilt to connect if it would not otherwise do so.
• Can tech a forward smash with approximately 1 SDI input.
• Can tech a down tilt with approximately 2 SDI inputs.

It is difficult-to-impossible for Marth to edgehog after a teched forward smash (Luigi often either grabs the ledge first or hits Marth with his up-B and then grabs the ledge), and much more lenient to do after a teched down tilt.

Airdodging onstage after ledge teching Marth's forward smash or down tilt gives Marth enough time to forward smash or down tilt again between the time your intangibility has worn off and the time before you can shield, roll, etc.

If Marth is close enough to the edge of the stage that Luigi ends up hitting him with his up-B, then Marth can act sooner than he would otherwise be able to because the hit cancels the forward smash/down tilt's ending lag with minimal hitstun/hitlag.

Conclusions/relevant information
• Whenever you up-B you should always autopilot the tech and the SDI left/right; the timing is always the same for onstage edgeguards, though some offstage edgeguards (such as Marth's forward air stage spike near the top of the stage wall) may require you to tech earlier.
• You cannot reasonably ledge-tech an attack which hits you out of an early up-B.
• Marth's down tilt is harder to tech than forward smash while only having 1 less active frame (3 compared to 4), so it seems to be the better edgeguarding tool under most circumstances.
• I can't think of any situation where one would want to walljump-tech with Luigi instead of doing a normal ledge-tech; it's extremely easy to react to and intercept.

After a ledge-tech:
• If the opponent is spacing for a tipper then you might be able to catch them unprepared and get around their follow up move with an early up-B, but good players should be able to deal with it by simply spacing appropriately or grabbing the ledge if possible.
• Depending on how early you up-B and how soon your opponent acts they might not be able to reach the ledge in time to edgehog after a forward smash, though they will always reasonably be able to do so following a down tilt. After a teched forward smash a down tilt is usually Marth's best option because edgehogging is unreliable in that situation and a forward smash is easier to tech.
• You have a poor mixup between up-B (which should be an attempted sweetspot) and airdodge onstage. The opponent can still cover both options by ledgehogging immediately and reacting to an airdodge onstage with a ledgehop aerial, but they might want to down tilt or forward smash instead (it's higher reward than a ledgehop aerial while still covering both options, just not covering the ledge perfectly/completely).
• Since you have to sweetspot perfectly to avoid a down tilt or else SDI and ledge-tech, and because the opponent can still easily cover both the airdodge onstage and the up-B to the ledge using down tilt, Marth's best option after you ledge-tech a down tilt is probably to just keep down tilting until you mess up even though it isn't technically guaranteed. I'm not really sure whether Marth should prefer attempting to edgehog or down tilt in this situation; either way it's terrible for Luigi. I suppose it would depend on how good the particular Luigi is at sweetspotting.
• You can stall with cyclone but I can't see that helping much if the opponent doesn't panic and climb off the ledge early or neglect to refresh their ledge intangibility.
 
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