Lucas's nair can be SDI'd (Super Smash Bros Wii U)

[DE235]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy_hpEcqXdc

This video by PK Blueberry
Lucas is going to need some new combos.

 

[C0rvus]

Apparently fairing in place of nairing does slightly more damage. Down throw to fair might be the bnb of choice. However, SDI might place opponents in bad positions, so we should keep nairing and experiment a bit.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Yup, I've noticed this as well. Just give us the 1 damage back and let's pretend it never happend sakurai. (Or just half the hitlag making SDI'ing the same as 1 damage)

 

[SpandexBullets]

This doesn't work. The video is misleading in that they only combo shiek (fast-faller) at 0% and fail to get any direct hits. It appears this is intentional, since level 9 CPUs do it, but it almost always connects past 15%.

As well as that, nair footstool combos do not work in competitive play. The 12% nair is possibly Lucas's best aerial because it has so much more utilty than his 8% did; way easier racking damage, grab setup, shield pressure, approach option, etc.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Yup, I've noticed this as well. Just give us the 1 damage back and let's pretend it never happend sakurai. (Or just half the hitlag making SDI'ing the same as 1 damage)

It has the same hitlag as the 1% hits.

 

[JesterJaded]

This doesn't work. The video is misleading in that they only combo shiek (fast-faller) at 0% and fail to get any direct hits. It appears this is intentional, since level 9 CPUs do it, but it almost always connects past 15%.

As well as that, nair footstool combos do not work in competitive play. The 12% nair is possibly Lucas's best aerial because it has so much more utilty than his 8% did; way easier racking damage, grab setup, shield pressure, approach option, etc.

On that note, I've seen D-throw -> footstool almost work in tournament, but usually failing from the player flubbing the combo. Should that be optimized?

 

[MrWhYYZ]

It has the same hitlag as the 1% hits.

I meant knockback, halfing the knockback makes sure N-air hits the same way it did before even though people I play almost daily were already SDI'ing out of U-throw N-air N-air but now Falcon just SDI's down and blocks even if I follow his DI.

 

[SpandexBullets]

On that note, I've seen D-throw -> footstool almost work in tournament, but usually failing from the player flubbing the combo. Should that be optimized?

Just dont do it and go for the guaranteed percent. You'll always get like 20-ish off of a grab anyway.
Footstool whiffs put you in a horrid position as Lucas, and since Lucas doesnt really have a problem racking damage, the guaranteed percent us always optimal.

 

[JesterJaded]

Just dont do it and go for the guaranteed percent. You'll always get like 20-ish off of a grab anyway.
Footstool whiffs put you in a horrid position as Lucas, and since Lucas doesnt really have a problem racking damage, the guaranteed percent us always optimal.

I'm not entirely sure I can agree with that mentality, but I can understand the notion of wanting to play it safe. Personally I feel like I should get my money's worth for winning neutral to the best possible outcome, especially considering Lucas' grab even after the buffs and grab confirms.

That, and they're so satisfying to pull off, like D-throw -> Footstool -> lock -> extend lock -> Zair -> Dtilt -> regrab -> D-throw -> Fair (for style). Most fun I've had in this game for a while, despite the impracticality of it.

 

[EmpireCrusher203]

Thanks Sakurai, for ****ing up Lucas. Just kidding, Sakurai, don't hurt me!

So, this is way my nairs never come out properly. It's the patch. You'll have to DI like a boss for lucas's nair to follow into other comboes. But until then...

R.I.P
Lucas's Neutral Air
2008- 2016

 

[JesterJaded]

Thanks Sakurai, for ****ing up Lucas. Just kidding, Sakurai, don't hurt me!

So, this is way my nairs never come out properly. It's the patch. You'll have to DI like a boss for lucas's nair to follow into other comboes. But until then...

R.I.P
Lucas's Neutral Air
2008- 2016

Before I start crying like a child who's lost family members to ferocious dinosaurs,

This doesn't work. The video is misleading in that they only combo shiek (fast-faller) at 0% and fail to get any direct hits. It appears this is intentional, since level 9 CPUs do it, but it almost always connects past 15%.

As well as that, nair footstool combos do not work in competitive play. The 12% nair is possibly Lucas's best aerial because it has so much more utilty than his 8% did; way easier racking damage, grab setup, shield pressure, approach option, etc.

Has this^ been labbed yet? If Nair can still work at certain percents, I'd like to be sure where exactly those percents are on which characters. If this supposed hidden Nair nerf is really being overblown, it be best to debunk it soon before people start thinking Lucas is garbage tier again.

Unfortunately I still can't test right now ._.

 

[Son~]

You can follow their DI.. Pk Blueberry creating more hysteria I see.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Before I start crying like a child who's lost family members to ferocious dinosaurs,


Has this^ been labbed yet? If Nair can still work at certain percents, I'd like to be sure where exactly those percents are on which characters. If this supposed hidden Nair nerf is really being overblown, it be best to debunk it soon before people start thinking Lucas is garbage tier again.

Unfortunately I still can't test right now ._.

Yeah, everyone who's been commenting perhaps *hasn't*.

The nair sdi has actually been there since prepatch. I just checked lvl 9 cpu's and they did it back then too.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Yeah, everyone who's been commenting perhaps *hasn't*.

The nair sdi has actually been there since prepatch. I just checked lvl 9 cpu's and they did it back then too.

They did, but not this much. It's become easier.

 

[SpandexBullets]

They did, but not this much. It's become easier.

Tried it, and it feels exactly the same. I mean, this just means Falcon is harder to combo at 0 really. Everyone else is still peasy.

 

[Frobro]

Tried it, and it feels exactly the same. I mean, this just means Falcon is harder to combo at 0 really. Everyone else is still peasy.

I've had pikachu's fall out at mid percents, though, fastfallers certainly are the most notable chages. When i grab someone at 100 and U-air won't kill, i do double jump nair to deal dmg without stailling U-air. Now i can't always drag people with me to get the last hit. The only change this iteration of N-air needs is the hitbox expanded to hit further in-front, above and under Lucas. And an autocancel window could be cool too.

Imagine if Lucas shorthoping was actually useful in the nuetral. Lucas conditioning people to shield his auto cancel safe on shield f-air and n-air and then empty hopping into dash grab. Or we could juke them into thinking an approaching shorthop is gonna be a F-air on their shield and then you b-reverse wavebounce pk fire. OR you really psyche the opponent out and wavebounce pk fire the other direction and slide behind the opponent in their shield. Maybe go for the style with empty-hop backwards with your back to the opponent, and when they drop shield wavebounce magnet towards them for the kill/disrespect. What if N-air was lagless and we could cross up dudes in their shield into pivot grab or cross back through thier shield with a 2nd n-air attempting to get a shield poke to open them up?

These are the buffs I wanna see. Oh and while we're at it. Moves that need to be fixed due to hitboxes not functioning properly: U-Smash, D-Smash, U-air, D-air. And make U-tilt a combo starter, and tipper dash attack a kill move or useful at all. Make pk freeze be active longer than 1 frame. Magnet hit-box should kill with how precise and laggy it is. D-tilt trip and always jab-lock. Z-air 4% on whole snake and autocancel. D-smash hits should be active for longer, and have less tine inbetween hits and no sex kick property. Then people will actually have to respect the motherless child!

 

[Eisen]

I'm really upset about this, because I knew as soon as I started playing this freaking patch that the move was botched. Ugh. There's only one, maybe two patches left to go for this game, too, which bothers me because I doubt something "small" like this will get fixed. I'm going to actually put in a complaint about it, I think.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

just unfortunate really. Maybe tweeting this out to @SoraSakurai on twitter can help fix this. I'm pretty sure they made n-air slower and gave it more damage to compensate for the fact that it locks the opponent in.

 

[A Polar Bear]

Please don't do this. It's absolutely disgraceful.

 

[JesterJaded]

Polar Bear's right, there are at least ten other characters that have it a lot worse than Lucas right now. We should be grateful for the combos and KO potential we have now, instead of Duck Hunt's neutral game limbo, DeDeDe's terrible projectile and disadvantage, and Jigglypuff's... everything.

And if you really want your lagless aerials back, pick an SLHG setup and go nuts. It's a better alternative to asking Sakurai to pander to your character when others have it much, much worse off.

 

[LRodC]

Is this a thing, or is this just overblown? His neutral air seems exactly the same to me. If it was SDIable, people would've discovered it a while ago.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Is this a thing, or is this just overblown? His neutral air seems exactly the same to me. If it was SDIable, people would've discovered it a while ago.

It most certainly isn't a thing.
If any of the people on this thread really try instead of seeing this barely accurate video and throwing their grief to Sakurai for darn goofin dem agen, we'd know it's not a thing. Because technically, you can SDI out of most multi-hit moves in the game, it's just really difficult and often causes you to lose opportunity for optimal DI because it barely works. This case is easier because of freeze-frames but you still have to SDI like a demon.

This example presented is a Shiek at 0% (fast-faller, thin, short frame, low damage/hitstun/launchpower) which makes SDI a lot easier than what is normally applicable to the rest of the cast. As well as that, the Lucas in the video keeps hitting Shiek with the outer parts of nair (only Lucas's torso to his knees and eyeline are a hitbox for nair, then whole body on last hitbox).

I mean, it's like showing ZSS's up B not connecting once and proclaiming that it is secretly the worst move in the game. This move still works, just now you should probably go for an up air at zero instead of a nair > fair/up air (which doesn't combo anyway.) Really you should be going for bair > up air > uptilt/regrab/jab/dtilt/nair. As much as I love nair, it's hardly his best or only combo starter.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Is this a thing, or is this just overblown? His neutral air seems exactly the same to me. If it was SDIable, people would've discovered it a while ago.

It was SDIable before this patch but the extra damage made it easier.
If people know how to SDI they'll get out. If they don't than nothing has changed except for more damage for us.
Tbh, almost everyone I play during smashfests SDI out of it. But hey, you still have people that go to tournaments that don't SDI fast enough out of Ness's PK-fire to avoid a grab so you can always N-air those people into oblivion.

 

[DE235]

I am glad this conversation is happening.

 

[LRodC]

It most certainly isn't a thing.
If any of the people on this thread really try instead of seeing this barely accurate video and throwing their grief to Sakurai for darn goofin dem agen, we'd know it's not a thing. Because technically, you can SDI out of most multi-hit moves in the game, it's just really difficult and often causes you to lose opportunity for optimal DI because it barely works. This case is easier because of freeze-frames but you still have to SDI like a demon.

This example presented is a Shiek at 0% (fast-faller, thin, short frame, low damage/hitstun/launchpower) which makes SDI a lot easier than what is normally applicable to the rest of the cast. As well as that, the Lucas in the video keeps hitting Shiek with the outer parts of nair (only Lucas's torso to his knees and eyeline are a hitbox for nair, then whole body on last hitbox).

I mean, it's like showing ZSS's up B not connecting once and proclaiming that it is secretly the worst move in the game. This move still works, just now you should probably go for an up air at zero instead of a nair > fair/up air (which doesn't combo anyway.) Really you should be going for bair > up air > uptilt/regrab/jab/dtilt/nair. As much as I love nair, it's hardly his best or only combo starter.

I really dislike the "woe is me" attitude some character mains have and their double standards. "With Lucas's n-air being SDIable, he is now one of the worst character in the game, but it's okay if ZSS's up B is SDIable because she's one of the best characters in the game".

 

[DE235]

I would like to say that I only posted this just to get opinions in case anyone thinks I am trolling. Also I think Lucas in an unexplored character just look at this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7HwgO0sNos and here you can see it in action https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdIOrPzvRbM&index=9&list=WL I just want to see Lucas be viable.

 

[JesterJaded]

Lucas is viable, just probably not solo viable, which the same can be said for half the cast. He has good tools, good recovery, and damage racking / KO potential that let him pick apart characters with not-bonkers mobility and large hurtboxes, but suffers a bit against high mobility / rushdown characters that he can't keep out and out-CQC him. Even then, some of those matchups are doable.

 

[SpandexBullets]

I would like to say that I only posted this just to get opinions in case anyone thinks I am trolling. Also I think Lucas in an unexplored character just look at this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7HwgO0sNos and here you can see it in action https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdIOrPzvRbM&index=9&list=WL I just want to see Lucas be viable.

It's fine, none of us are angry or upset.

I was addressing the idea of Lucas's nair being SDIable to the point where it's not useful anymore and had to put it out that this example really doesn't change anything. It's a great move on one of the best characters in the game so I had to lay out what I thought, sorry if that came across intimidating or as a negative reaction.

Thanks for bringing it to our attention though, SDI is still a thing (though I'm wondering how it affects dair more than anything else.)

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Even with N-air being SDIable it's still Lucas's best move to beat all ledge options.
N-air doing more shieldpressure, throw being less punishable and F-air being safe when spaced against a lot of the cast and f-tilt making Lucas's neutral even better, he's still better than he was before and IMO definitely capable of being solo mained.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Even with N-air being SDIable it's still Lucas's best move to beat all ledge options.
N-air doing more shieldpressure, throw being less punishable and F-air being safe when spaced against a lot of the cast and f-tilt making Lucas's neutral even better, he's still better than he was before and IMO definitely capable of being solo mained.

I don't even think it's even a question besides results. Lucas has so many things, and so few weaknesses in comparison.

 

[NSunderdog]

its extremely hard to do but possible i still think nair is extremely good tool in our tool box

 

[PKBeam]

on the contrary, I find that SDIing Nair is relatively easy provided you're aware of it beforehand.