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Lucas General Discussion

Nausicaa

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I remember seeing a post last November or so (2.1 still) about how Hammertime was pulling out more technical stuff with Lucas than most others, and I watched it, and laughed at just how slow and far behind the Lucas meta-game was.

Now, it's closer, but there's still so much work to do that barely a step has been taken. The depth and dynamics of his punish game alone is essentially non-existent, it's amazing how much this character can do and how little is optimized...

Good character is good.
 

Lukingordex

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does anyone here know how to use magnet pulling properly?

I can do it easily now,but idk how could i use this for my advantage in a battle.

any advice?
 

HammerTime

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I remember seeing a post last November or so (2.1 still) about how Hammertime was pulling out more technical stuff with Lucas than most others, and I watched it, and laughed at just how slow and far behind the Lucas meta-game was.

Now, it's closer, but there's still so much work to do that barely a step has been taken. The depth and dynamics of his punish game alone is essentially non-existent, it's amazing how much this character can do and how little is optimized...

Good character is good.
Just so you know, I've never played PM 2.1 and I only started playing 2.5 around march-april so that post/video you saw must not have been me playing lol. But yeah I do agree, the Lucas metagame has gotten insane lately, and yet I still feel like there's a million more things I could be doing. Oracle seems to be the player who's closest to fully utilizing Lucas' potential from what I've seen
 

NeonApophis

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does anyone here know how to use magnet pulling properly?

I can do it easily now,but idk how could i use this for my advantage in a battle.

any advice?
I think it is mostly useful for chasing opponents after you hit across the stage and off the other side. So something like FSmash -> turn around magnet pull across the stage -> bair. You can also double jump before the bair if they end up recovering higher, or just fall down to spike them with it if they're below you. You can also not turn around, and use other aerials like fair or maybe up air if you can combo off of it, but bair seems like the most useful.

I also have been experimenting with using the magnet pull as a mixup to stay safe while your opponent is invincible, but I'm not sure how good this actually is. It seems useful because it lets you quickly cover a large distance, and you can go in either direction when you magnet depending on whether you b-reverse it. But it might be safer to just stay on the ground and avoid them normally.
 

Nausicaa

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LOL it was probably like March or something, my bad on the guessing-date, but it was for sure you. Time flies.
If Oracle is the fore-front of Lucas play now, in terms of view-able mainstream stuff (what we can publicly see at least), then Lucas is further 'behind' than I thought.
Lucas just too good, complex, and flexible. Freaking dynamic character like no other.

What does the term 'Magnet-Pull' refer to?
 

Burnsy

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Magnet pull: aerial side-b> aerial down-b. Its a Brawl tech that gives you a sizable horizontal movement boost when you do it quickly.
 

NeonApophis

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LOL it was probably like March or something, my bad on the guessing-date, but it was for sure you. Time flies.
If Oracle is the fore-front of Lucas play now, in terms of view-able mainstream stuff (what we can publicly see at least), then Lucas is further 'behind' than I thought.
Lucas just too good, complex, and flexible. Freaking dynamic character like no other.

What does the term 'Magnet-Pull' refer to?
Dude, we get it. Lucas is too hard. lol
You might want to look at some of my stuff. Oracle and I have pretty similar playstyles but I think I do some things better.
 

Nguz95

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Dude, we get it. Lucas is too hard. lol
You might want to look at some of my stuff. Oracle and I have pretty similar playstyles but I think I do some things better.
I watched your videos and you're pretty hype. Lots of really cool tech on display. Calabrel sad you beat him in Lucas dittos. Is that true?
 

Nausicaa

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Link meh?
Seen Magnet pull, never found a reason to apply it... Lucas too diverse to need that thang. ;)
Maybe recovery? haha
 

Nguz95

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Wow, that's pretty impressive. Calabrel is really good in his own right, so to beat him that badly is pretty strong.
I have a question for you guys: 8age posted a video a while back showing what shield pressure options were available to Lucas. Most of them revolved around DJC fair. Have any of you been able to replicate that to any extent? I feel like his DJC fair could lead into magnet as long as you manage to lock them into shield with something like a nair or a pk freeze.
 

Burnsy

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That kind of pressure can be replicated in small bursts here and there; it's difficult to do consistently, but we constantly get better at it. Both me and Neon have been able to break a quite few sheilds with Lucas pressure.
 

Nausicaa

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I land too many Grabs and combo off them, to really bother with all that fancy stuff.
Pressure for a bit to make them want to Grab, then next time, Grab them when they think you'll pressure.
I like getting inside heads instead of shields. lol
 

Eisen

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I couldn't agree more on the Lucas metagame feeling a bit lagging behind right now; at least when compared to the potential I see in this character all the time. There's a lot of mixups I don't see used very often, to be specific. And execution of super technical stuff seems to be... not very present. At least, not as present as I'd expect I guess. Though if Burns is getting shield breaks on occasion, he's doing better than me: I've managed maybe a couple of perfectly timed magnet-to-aerial strings.

... I'd really like to get to the point where breaking shields is part of how playing Lucas works, or at least, it's a very scary and real threat in my playstyle. I don't know how probable that is? but...I think that'd be interesting, to make that Lucas'/my niche. I need to work on my fundamental first still, though. I lag behind on proper spacing, execution, tech skill, speed, punishing.

Hopefully I'll be posting some vids in the vid thread here shortly, for those of you who don't know how I play.
 

NeonApophis

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I broke 3 shields in some friendlies against pretty decent players yesterday, and got the best reaction for one of them. My opponent was like "You broke my shield?! I didn't even see it!"
Also, I've started reexploring grounded magnet -> jump -> aerial magnet -> djc aerial as a shield pressure option. You can also do multiple grounded magnets or hold any of the magnets on their shield as a mixup, which is especially good and tricky since you can jump out of the magnet anytime while you're holding it. So you can do stuff like hold an aerial magnet until you land on the ground to get access to the options you have out of a grounded magnet.
 

Nguz95

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I broke 3 shields in some friendlies against pretty decent players yesterday, and got the best reaction for one of them. My opponent was like "You broke my shield?! I didn't even see it!"
Also, I've started reexploring grounded magnet -> jump -> aerial magnet -> djc aerial as a shield pressure option. You can also do multiple grounded magnets or hold any of the magnets on their shield as a mixup, which is especially good and tricky since you can jump out of the magnet anytime while you're holding it. So you can do stuff like hold an aerial magnet until you land on the ground to get access to the options you have out of a grounded magnet.
Is that a more consistent option because the grounded magnet has 5 frames of startup? I know the magnet generates a continuous stream of hitboxes, which makes it pretty different from a shine, but I figured that JC magnets would still be the best way to generate really fast, strong pressure. It would be like a multishine, except it you could transition to aerials really fast because of DJC.
 

NeonApophis

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I'm not sure what you're comparing its consistency to, but the main benefit I've found from the grounded magnet is that it just provides an extra hit and still lets you do other things once you jump out of it. So it can be better to do a grounded magnet first rather than just jumping at them and doing aerial magnet -> djc pressure. And yes, it can be used like a multishine and you can transition to aerials very quickly, although I think it's usually better to do an aerial magnet before your djc.
 

Nguz95

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I'm not sure what you're comparing its consistency to, but the main benefit I've found from the grounded magnet is that it just provides an extra hit and still lets you do other things once you jump out of it. So it can be better to do a grounded magnet first rather than just jumping at them and doing aerial magnet -> djc pressure. And yes, it can be used like a multishine and you can transition to aerials very quickly, although I think it's usually better to do an aerial magnet before your djc.
Sorry about that. I was comparing it to the fair pressure, which I know is really hard because I've tried it. I figured that the repeated magnet pressure would be easier to pull off since it sends out a small barrage of hitboxes and doesn't rely on raw finger speed. I like your idea of the jumping magnet, although I feel like I might be misinterpreting what you mean. I imagine it being magnet to a short jump to a magnet to holding it until right before you touch the ground to DJCing into a fair. Does that sound right?

Honestly I feel like a multishine is ging to be more effective than this option. Who knows though. I haven't practiced either, so I can't talk about it authoritatively.
 

NeonApophis

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I imagine it being magnet to a short jump to a magnet to holding it until right before you touch the ground to DJCing into a fair.
That is something you could do which would probably be a very effective mixup, but when I say "aerial magnet" or just "magnet" as part of a combo string, I mean doing the magnet and jumping or DJCing as soon as possible so that you just hit them with the release hitbox and can then follow up with a combo if the magnet connects, or continue shield pressure if they shield it. I remember reading that some type of multmagnets is statistically the best shield pressure, but I think it involved doing some combination of grounded and aerial magnets. Maybe someone else reading this post remembers where that information was posted and could link there. I think it had a pretty good overall analysis of various interesting shield pressure methods. Despite multimagnets having the best frame advantage, I'm not sure they're the best pressure overall, since you can stay much safer by doing sh magnets to retreating aerials in order to stay out of range. Even Dedede can't shield grab Lucas's sh magnet -> retreating DJC fair. This is also still very strong pressure, since your opponent will have serious problems if you are constantly hitting his shield while staying out of range of all major punishment options.

Another note on shield pressure is that holding a magnet forces a lot of characters to roll. If I'm correct in believing that the repeating hitboxes are electric, the opponent only has 3 frames to act in between hits because of shield stun and hitlag. If the hitboxes aren't electric, they have 4 frames to act, which is enough for Fox to shine oos, and for some characters to do something (like up b), but either way a lot of characters will have no option besides rolling or getting hit. And even if it is possible for a character to get out of the pressure, the window is so small that it will be very difficult to properly time any attempted oos actions to avoid getting hit. This also makes rolling even more likely even when the character has some punish option; they could buffer a roll and be guaranteed to get out of it, or go for a punish that is very likely to fail and result in them getting punished much harder than they would be able to punish off their oos options. It doesn't look very desirable to challenge Lucas under these conditions, so the Lucas player has a pretty safe and easy method for forcing rolls or free hits. The only concern is crouch cancelling, but the looping hitboxes will stop most CC'd attacks before their hitboxes come out, so you'll still be pretty safe holding it. The main concern is spacies, since they can easily shine out of a CC in one frame. If you are up against a character that can hit you out of their CC, then when they start to CC you just need to let go of the magnet so that you hit them with the release hitbox, since it can't be crouch cancelled. You can then just jc the magnet's endlag, and combo off the magnet hit. If you find that certain players or characters are consistently CCing and punishing you, you should probably switch to other pressure, like sh magnet -> djc up air or basically any other aerial move you want, since that pressure is safer and beats CCing.

This post ended up a lot longer than necessary, but I thought you all might find this information sort of useful. Haha.
 

Burnsy

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Maybe someone else reading this post remembers where that information was posted and could link there.

Maybe so.

I made this video while experimenting with Lucas' shieldpressure, it includes short examples of all the major options I could think of:

Tool-Assisted Shieldpressure Compilation

I also prepared a quite extensive description detailing all moves used per clip, framedata and possible applications, that I originally planned to include on Youtube for easy reference. It seems though that it has gotten too long, so now I post it here on Smashboards. Due to being written for Youtube you may find some of it obvious, but to be honest I don't feel like typing it all over again:


Overview
While you usually won't be able to react and space perfectly, the general components of the video are all humanly possible to do. I'd say this kind of shield pressure is about as hard as the corresponding spacie stuff, but it varies depending on the technique in question. All the shield pressure variants are imperfect in that they don't keep the enemy shieldstunned permanently and can be rolled out of. Still the disjointedness and/or speed easily beat most out of shield options if used properly. The best ways I found to get out of Lucas' shield pressure are Shield DI to mess up the spacing and rolling, both of which can be dealt with if read. I didn't notice any effect of stale during my tests, but it may have an impact at high levels of stale. Note that I don't insist all of this will be useful in practice, I've just been gathering ideas.

Details
Ness: Standard pressure (0:04-0:08)
(DownB->DJC FAir)*3
Generic shield pressure. Ness doesn't react and gets shieldbroken 107 frames after Lucas' first DownB connects. The next hitbox is active 7 frames after the end of the first FAir's shieldstun, 3 after DownB's. I sourspotted FAir during this sequence. Sweetspotting it would increase the shield stun after it by 1 frame, but it's hard to get the FAir sweetspot and still be in range for PSI Magnet.

Bowser 1 (Mars): FAir only (0:10-0:11)
(DJC FAir)*3->Grab
This method relies on spacing alone. Bowser's UpB is too big for standard pressure to be safe, so DownB gets left out in favor of better FAir-spacing. Bowser tries to UpB in the 11 frames retaliation window after the second FAir, but gets beaten by the third one.

Sheik: NAir crossup & roll call (0:12-0:13)
DJC FAir->NAir crossup->Turnaround DownB->Wavedash->Grab
NAir can be used to cross up opponents and mess up with their OOS-timing, but it has both more end lag than FAir. If timed as soon as possible NAir hits on the first frame opponents can jump/roll out of shield, but it gives the opponent opportunity to act for a few frames before the landing hit connects. If NAir is delayed by 4 frames like I did in the video the landing hitbox connects on the first frame after shieldstun.
Sheik tries to roll out after the crossup, but a wavedash grab easily catches it after being called correctly.

Ivysaur: Multimagnet v1 (0:14-0:19)
DownB->(JC->DownB)*8->Fulljump OffenseUp
Ivysaur tries to Shield-DI away but ends off getting shieldbroken and subsequently killed via OffenseUp-wind. There's a 5 frame retaliation window between the shines, which makes this kind of pressure still unsafe against characters with fast out of shield options. Ivy's OOS options are too slow for that so her best bet would have been rolling, which takes 32 frames - theoretically enough for a human to punish on reaction.
This version of Multimagnet is relatively easy to execute, but isn't quite as good as the next one.

Jigglypuff 1 (Sleeping Cap): Multimagnet v2 (0:20-0:21)
DownB->(JC-1>DownB->DJ->DownB)*2->JC-1>DownB
"-1>" means delayed by 1 frame
This is probably the nearest Lucas can get to perfect shield pressure. There are only 2 frames between shieldstun and an active hitbox after the ground jumps and apart from that the opponent is permanently shield stunned. Means that very few characters can do anything but roll/spotdodge and even with a godly UpB like Bowser you have to be nearly frame perfect to escape.
It's also the most difficult to perform shield pressure technique in this video.

Peach: Mixups (0:22-0:24)
DJC FAir->DownB->DJC DAir->DownB->Instant NAir (Shieldpoke)->Grab
Peach's best chance of getting out of a standard shieldpressure combo would have been after the second FAir. A DJC DAir in its place hits 6 frames later messing up Peach's UpB timing and makes her shield eat DownB, after which an early NAir is guaranteed to connect with either Peach or her shield. In this case she gets shieldpoked and grabbed.

Fox: Shield DI to get out (0:25-0:27)
(DJC FAir)*3->Wavedash->FAir
Fox Shield DIs, forces FAir only pressure and then comfortly gets out of it by shield DIing out of DownB and later even FAir range. Lucas uses his longer Wavedash and disjointed FAir to catch up with Fox and beat NAir, but can't reliably combo out of it because Fox falls too fast.

Snake: Working around the grenade (0:28-0:31)
NAir crossup->Turnaround DownB->Double DJC-FAir->Combo
The NAir crossup has to be perfectly spaced and timed late enough to not eat the grenade but prevents it from getting in the way of subsequent attacks.

Squirtle/Marth: Baiting Up-B OOS (0:31-0:33)
DJC FAir->DownB->DJC FAir->Punish
Squirtle's and Marth's UpB be both are fast enough to be used between FAir and DownB and have better disjoint than FAir. By spacing FAir wide enough away from shield Lucas denies himself a DownB-followup but also leaves Squirtle and Marth wide open for a punish, if they go for an upB.
I went for flashy punishes in the video, both are far from optimal.

Falco: DownB grab (0:34-0:35)
(DJC FAir->DownB)*2->JC Grab
Of course, grab out of DownB can also be a viable mixup. It is easily spotdodged, though, if the opponent sees it coming and leaves Lucas wide open if it whiffs.

Falcon: Random semi-flashy stuff (0:36-0:38)
DJC FAir->DownB->NAir->DownB->DownB->DJC DAir
Another PSI magnet instead of the DAir would have broken the shield as well and considerably faster, but I like the looks of DJC DAirs. : p

Mr. Game And Watch: Jab pressure (0:39-0:40)
DJC FAir->(Jab 1->CC)*2->Jab 1->Jab 2
Mostly to show how fast you can chain Jab 1 into itself - frame wise this pressure is garbage. See "Frame info" below for a jab pressure retaliation window list.

Bowser 2 (Maritime): Multimagnet Mixup (0:40-0.42)
(Jump-1>DownB->DJ->DownB)*2->JC->NAir->DownB
Bowser is one of the few characters who have an OOS option fast enough to escape Multimagnet pressure in his UpB. Still, the timing for it is very strict and a NAir mixup catches it (and any other OOS option) by hitting on frame 1 after shieldstun. In this sequence the only hole is the one after the first Multimagnet loop. The NAir hits on the very first frame after shieldstun and also would have shieldpoked Bowser's then tiny shield had he not tried to UpB (you can't see it, but he did).
The biggest problems with this pressure seem to be initiation and technical execution.

Jigglypuff 2 (Mars): Maximum distance spacing (0:42-0:45)
DJC FAir->DownB (shieldpoke)->DAir
The running DJC Fair was used on the first frame for Lucas to still be in range for DownB after it connected. This distance is of course dependent on the opposing character and shield DI. A maximum distance DownB suprisingly shieldpokes Jigglypuff, setting up for just about any followup. Lucas chooses to try to go for a techchase after DAir, but unfortunately Jigglypuff can jump before hitting the ground and rests Lucas. Maximum distance SDI and worst possible DI secure the kill.

Toon Link: More Multimagnet (0:45-0:47)
Bombcatch->Bombdrop->(DownB->DJ->DownB->JC)*2->DownB->DJ->NeutralB
The bomb actually doesn't do much here, but it hits one frame before the last Magnet and shows how fast this stuff is compared it. The more interesting stuff here is that you can initiate a (DownB->DJ->DownB->JC) just before landing from a shorthop and the usage of B-Reversals to cross up Toon Link.

Zelda: Magnet hold shenanigans (0:47-0:49)
DownB(21)->DJ->DownB(10)->JC->DownB(10)->DJ->DownB(10)->JC WD->USmash
The number behind each DownB indicates how many frames it was held including startup.
Now we're getting tricky. First a floating PSI Magnet is used to initiate and held for one additional repitition (11 frames). The repitition hitboxes of DownB only have 5 frames of shieldstun/hitlag, so it offers a 6 frame retaliation window, which is 1 frame more than even Multimagnet v1. What it does, though, is let Lucas float to the ground with ok shield pressure.
The first 7 frames of holding actually don't increase the time Magnet is out due to startup, so each of the DownBs is actually only held for 3 more frames than necessary. When tapped the release hitbox would hit the opponent exactly 3 frames before he is able to act. The soonest frame any OOS option is invincible is frame 2 (spotdodges). Thus the effect of these 3 frames of additional hold time is that opponents who try to act out of shield as soon as possible get hit. This makes buffering rolls/spotdodges via C-stick unsafe when the input occurs too soon. Mind that using C-stick buffer still increases the window to input the command by 9 frames, but it can't be used at any but 1 frame of the whole sequence. You could also use different release timings to further mess with your opponents timings.
To get back to the video example. After floating to the ground Lucas starts usual Multimagnet pressure but with the release hitboxes delayed by 3 frames. Zelda tries to buffer a spotdodge but does it too soon and gets hit.

Frame info
All unstaled.

Advantage on shield:
PSI Magnet: +7 (Jump)
Sweetspot DJC FAir: -1
Sourspot DJC FAir: -2
DJC DAir: -3
NAir landing hit: -4
DJC UAir: -4
Jab 1: -8 (Crouch)
Jab 2: -17

Frame of the first hitbox:
NAir: 4
FAir: 5
UAir: 5
PSI Magnet: 5
PSI Magnet (aerial->ground transition): 8
DAir: 10

Lucas jump is 4 frames and DJCing an aerial takes at least one frame. Thus a perfect DJC FAir from the ground takes 10 frames until the hitbox comes out. For DAir the DJC has to be delayed by one frame or it hits the ground before the hitbox comes out. Same for UAir if you want the main hitboxes.

The second version of Magnet occurs when Lucas transitions from air to ground with DownB during v1 Multimagnets.

Jab pressure retaliation windows:
Sourspot FAir->Jab 1: 6 frames
Jab 1->Jab 2.1: 5 frames
Jab 2.1->Jab 2.5: 3 frames
Jab 1->Jab 1: 13 frames
Jab 2.5->Jab 1: 22 frames
Jab 1->DTilt: 11 frames

Each one in frames after end of shieldstun that the next hitbox comes out.

Move Timings in frames
DJC FAir/UAir (minimum airtime):
1: Shorthop
5: DJ
6: FAir/UAir

DJC DAir (minimum airtime):
1: Shorthop
6: DJ
7: DAir

JCed DownB:
1: DownB
10: Jump

Multimagnet v1 repititions:
1: DownB
10: Jump
14/1: DownB

Multimagnet v2 repitions:
1: Jump
6: DownB
15: DJ
16: DownB
25/1: Jump


So yeah, have fun with it and maybe someone will be find something useful in there.
 

Nausicaa

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Other than you can Light-Shield in Melee.
Yet at the same time, most observable in the depth of Falco-meta-game, dealing with LS's by keeping your momentum following it vs not is a really dynamic thing in overall play. Lucas has an even easier time with this than Falco would.

So... future inevitable buff in-coming?
 

Nguz95

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3.0 could be the demo they return all of the missing Melee physics. I wouldn't be surprised if they changed the shields back and fixed the jump squat thing.
 

Burnsy

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I've had that happen a few times on unconsciously/accidentally, it seems useful but I also wonder how much risk is involved, since you have relatively little frontal coverage.

That's not so much a problem if you come from above, though. I'll be messing around with this, I need to get better about recognizing situations where bair is the best option.
 

Eisen

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Bair is one of Lucas' best moves, and most people I see using him against me could body me even harder if they'd only bair and dair and pressure more.

But people are frickin' lazy and just like to outspace and wait until wifi shenanigans put me out of position. /johns, /salt
 

Nausicaa

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Pro tip: You don't need to be facing your opponent in order to bair them. I don't think I've seen anyone else using reverse bairs, and they're very useful for getting lower percentage kills.
For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSLV7XUdH88&t=1m38s
Send that over to another thread around here, I can't remember where...
If you can find him, there's some dude who just F-airs a lot, and I described this to him as something he should at to his punishment game since he likes leading into it and not doing it.
The vid would help him I'm sure. If he doesn't get it at least...



Edit: nvm I found the thread (it's hidden at the top in a separate section)
If something is at the top of a sub-forum, does that mean it's a 'sticky' even if it doesn't say it is?
 

NeonApophis

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Would anyone like for me to start a new matchup thread?
Neither of the existing threads are useful or active, and I don't think they had much chance of working out well since they weren't really aimed at collaborative evaluation of the matchups. My thread wouldn't start off with me guessing matchup percentages, but would instead focus discussion on one matchup at a time for a few days/weeks, and then move on once that discussion becomes unproductive. Obviously we'll revisit matchups as new things are figured out, and the discussion won't be strictly limited to just one matchup, but I'll attempt to provide some focus for the thread so that we can actually start some good matchup analysis. Matchup analysis will obviously be a long process, but I think this an important and natural step in developing Lucas's metagame, since we now have a pretty good understanding of his technical abilities.
I just wanted to make sure that people don't think the existing threads are sufficient before I make a new one to replace them as the main venue for matchup discussion.
 

Nguz95

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Quick question: what button combination do you guys use to get the DJC off correctly? When I was playing a lot of Ness I would go y to tap jump to aerial, which seemed to work pretty well. However, when I do it with Lucas I tend to activate the rising aerial too much. Do you guys do something different? Also, I can't seem to wrap my head around DJC for PK Fire. I can't use tap jump to DJ like I'm used to, but hitting y twice feels too slow. Do I just need to go faster?
 

SpiderMad

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Quick question: what button combination do you guys use to get the DJC off correctly? When I was playing a lot of Ness I would go y to tap jump to aerial, which seemed to work pretty well. However, when I do it with Lucas I tend to activate the rising aerial too much. Do you guys do something different? Also, I can't seem to wrap my head around DJC for PK Fire. I can't use tap jump to DJ like I'm used to, but hitting y twice feels too slow. Do I just need to go faster?
Good question, lots of people differ a ton. To DJC Nair you have to use a Jump button, and with the new time window for DJC PK fire (they made his 2nd jump gain momentum sooner or something to escape chain grabs faster, but with the detriment of making DJC PK Fire more annoying/strict compared to past versions) I went from using a Jump button to sometimes using the Control stick (tap jump), which I usually use tap jump for most aerials and i'll make a video of my hands doing DJC stuff eventually though I'm not the best at DJC; although my marth movement is smooth =o http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAw6bTOUyXg Light press air dodge so comfortable
 

Nausicaa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 7, 2013
Messages
1,485
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Here
Basically the same as your Ness, Nguz.
X > Tap-Jump > Aerial. I use my index finger for X, so aerials and Side-B's are pretty smooth and effortless.
 

NeonApophis

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 21, 2012
Messages
180
Location
The Hyperbolic Time Chamber
I always jump twice with y for DJC pkf. You have plenty of time after you short hop before you need to double jump, and it's not too hard to quickly move/slide from y to b so that you let go of y early enough to DJC. I feel like using tap jump would make it really difficult to control your horizontal movement since you wouldn't be able hold a direction while you double jump, so y just seems much better.
 

Burnsy

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
1,167
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Heard somebody mention "snake jumping" or something like that...anyone know what that is?

Well, if you airdodge up and then cancel the airdodge with zair, it's kinda like having a third jump (that takes away all of your aerial options until you land). Pretty useful for some tricky movement, and for getting back on the stage quickly if your have used both jumps and are in an edgeguarding position. You can also use it to extend a juggle combo if they're above you and you've used all of your jumps. Just remember that you'll land with 10 frames of landlag.

There's also a "snake dash" which allows you to convert knockback/shield knockback into directed momentum left or right. You can go as far as the full distance of Final Destination with the snake dash if its well executed. Very useful for getting far enough away from opponents juggling you to fully reset to neutral, and punishing high sheildstun/high shield knockback moves (perfectly spaced Ganon fair).
 
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