Lucas feels incredibly underwhelming

[Specs64z]

Now that the game has been out for a few months, I feel I can make this thread with a modicum of confidence. So far Lucas has felt entirely underwhelming in Smash Ultimate. I'm going to attempt to articulate why I feel this way and how I believe this can be improved.

Lucas has no combo game. That's not to say Lucas doesn't have damage racking/kill combos, because he does, but none of them are reliable or consistent. Lucas's best combo tools are landing uair, sweetspot bair, short hop dair, and dtilt. The problem is that none of these moves are good neutral moves.

Uair has a really small hitbox, making it a terrible approaching aerial. This small hitbox also makes it difficult to reliably combo an opponent.
Bair has lots of startup, and requires the sweetspot to spike. The sweetspot is located close to Lucas (which is the inverse of all his other sweetspots so why this move is different is beyond me) which makes it a poor approach option.
Short hop dair has awful range and landing lag, and is easily punished with an aerial or when shielded. It can also be really difficult to follow the opponents DI.
Dtilt is super small, and Lucas isn't fast so it isn't reliable to use it as a running tilt.

This limits Lucas's interactions in neutral to landing stray hits with fair, PK fire, and the occasional zair or tilt, and Lucas simply doesn't have the damage output to win like that. I strongly believe a large part of the reason Lucas's kit is so awkward and dysfunctional is because of the changes to his nair. His nair is unusable. It has pathetic range, unreliable followup potential, no good drag down setups (especially compared to the insanity Ness can pull off with drag down uair and drag down fair), and does next to no damage. In smash 4, his nair racked up damage and set up edgeguards very reliably, and now nair is gone without a tool to replace it's function.

The other reason is that Lucas's grab game sucks until kill percents. In smash 4, sitting in shield against Lucas's zoning and aerials would be your downfall because a down throw meant eating an easy %40-50. In ultimate, Lucas has no throw follow ups at any percent so his grab game is hardly a threat (until kill percents, where it admittedly really outshines the rest of the cast).

Lucas's zoning is also very limited. His zair range was nerfed into the ground, and PK freeze'a arcing trajectory makes it exceptionally poor at mid range zoning. His tools almost seem to lean more toward an aggressive close quarters spacing character who only occasionally plays the spacing game with projectiles, but he doesn't have the frame data and range to do so effectively.

The removal of his tools was not properly compensated in the transition between games. PK freeze, for all it's absurd power, is extremely predictable and reactable. His stronger fair and PK fire don't make up for the neutering of Lucas's damage racking game. PKT2's initial hit connecting with the others doesn't matter because opponents fall out of it more often than not, leading them to punish my successful read.

The only strength he has that really shines is his edgeguarding, but his kit lacks the tools to really set up for a grimy edgeguard.

Maybe I'm missing something big and I'm playing Lucas all wrong, but... he almost feels like an incomplete character.

 

[Bcinq]

i do not necessarily agree with that, but i see whee you are coming from.
Lucas plays differently than 4, without DThrow combos and jab locks,
Zair is now Lucas main combo tool.
lucas has DJC zair which is zair but it combos into itself and a plethora of moves giving free 30-35%
Real hard to pull of, i think it is frame perfect. and it needs to be in specific position tho. (thanks zair size nerf)
lucas seems like smash 4 lucas with all his buffs in terms of potential. He definitely has a large skill ceiling with DI reading and DJC zair, along with other tricks like wavebounce PK Fire.
Once one guy masters everything about lucas and does it in a tourney, people will stop sleeping on him.
(btw plz no hurt i main ness but i also have lucas as secondary and have experience)

 

[Specs64z]

Real hard to pull of, i think it is frame perfect. and it needs to be in specific position tho. (thanks zair size nerf)

Thats exactly my main issue, though. He has combos, some of them are even amazing, but the positioning, reads, and timing required to pull them off makes them really inconsistent.

Once one guy masters everything about lucas and does it in a tourney, people will stop sleeping on him.

Hopefully. Some of the more technical characters are probably going to slowly rise up the ranks as people figure them out, and I want Lucas to be one of them.

(btw plz no hurt i main ness but i also have lucas as secondary and have experience)

Same here, actually.

 

[Goddamn_Angela]

I disagree.

PK Freeze is love.

 

[Phillyfanboy]

I might be a little spoil because my background is with brawl Lucas, Ultimate Lucas feels so much better than brawl. Lucas feels well rounded. I thought he had combos though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvXfvQDo9Ro

 

[Specs64z]

I might be a little spoil because my background is with brawl Lucas, Ultimate Lucas feels so much better than brawl. Lucas feels well rounded. I thought he had combos though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvXfvQDo9Ro

He has combos, but no combo game. His combo tools aren’t good neutral tools, so actually landing Lucas’s combos is difficult to do.

I disagree.

PK Freeze is love.

I’d trade PK freeze for a Pit style nair any day of the week.

 

[Aurane]

I'll play the good boy no matter how many users sleep on him.

 

[st marshmallow]

Most characters in this game don't have many throw combos anyway or lost most of them from smash 4, so I don't think it's that big a deal. Aerials are more important than throws in Ultimate. His nair was buffed in that it you cant SDI out of it anymore, it's good for stringing into itself, and you can follow up with jab. It's not nearly as useful without setups but it's far from "unusable". It's also one his best close range options.

Bair requires sweetspot to spike but honestly you have dair to spike and PK freeze and dsmash as edgeguarding tools. His zoning is better than in Smash 4 id argue, because of the increased knockback on PK fire and the shield pressure and power of PK freeze. Outside of combos he's not much different than he was in Smash 4, he was never a true zoning character to begin with. His get-off-me utilt and ftilts, zair, pk freeze and pk fire are all pretty good at keeping opponents out even if it's not exactly zoning. He has fewer combos but honestly his kill options are far better than in smash 4 with fair being much more reliable than the small hitbox on uair, and his insane edgeguarding potential being more exploitable than it was in smash 4 under the new engine. You're also arguing he doesn't have setups to allow him to exploit his edguarding, but im not sure what you're expecting? The decent knockback on PK fire can easily send opponent off the edge especially from 80% onward. This in conjunction with throws and ftilt/fair are reliable enough tools to keep them offstage.

I don't think it's an unfair assessment to say Lucas' neutral is incomplete or incomplete, but I think you're overvaluing grabs and combos when those good but much less prevalent parts of how smash ultimate plays. He definitely needs buffs and better tools in neutral, but he's still about as average as he was in smash 4, slightly better i'd say thanks to more kill options/edgeguarding shenanigans.

 

[Specs64z]

Most characters in this game don't have many throw combos anyway or lost most of them from smash 4, so I don't think it's that big a deal. Aerials are more important than throws in Ultimate. His nair was buffed in that it you cant SDI out of it anymore, it's good for stringing into itself, and you can follow up with jab. It's not nearly as useful without setups but it's far from "unusable". It's also one his best close range options.

I’d say it’s unusable mostly because it has garbage range in a game where range is very important. In the prior game, it’s range was less of an issue because it’s purpose was as a combo tool that could be reliably strung in to. Now it lacks the combo utility it had and has no good setups. Even if it could be strung into, it probably wouldn’t even be optimal because it does such low damage. And Lucas’s tilts are much better for cqc, in my opinion, largely because of their disjoints and frame data.

Outside of combos he's not much different than he was in Smash 4

In a lot of ways, that's exactly my issue. Having increased kill power is good and makes him a bit more consistent in that regard, but it doesn't mean as much as it could since he lacks the damage output to make it matter.

I don't think it's an unfair assessment to say Lucas' neutral is incomplete or incomplete, but I think you're overvaluing grabs and combos when those good but much less prevalent parts of how smash ultimate plays. He definitely needs buffs and better tools in neutral, but he's still about as average as he was in smash 4, slightly better i'd say thanks to more kill options/edgeguarding shenanigans.

I disagree that combos are less prevalent in Ultimate. Every character currently considered among the best has amazing strings and kill confirms. Lucas has a few kill confirms himself, but dtilt and dair aren't exactly the best neutral tools.

Out of curiosity, how would you go about buffing Lucas?

 

[st marshmallow]

I’d say it’s unusable mostly because it has garbage range in a game where range is very important. In the prior game, it’s range was less of an issue because it’s purpose was as a combo tool that could be reliably strung in to. Now it lacks the combo utility it had and has no good setups. Even if it could be strung into, it probably wouldn’t even be optimal because it does such low damage. And Lucas’s tilts are much better for cqc, in my opinion, largely because of their disjoints and frame data.

In a lot of ways, that's exactly my issue. Having increased kill power is good and makes him a bit more consistent in that regard, but it doesn't mean as much as it could since he lacks the damage output to make it matter.

I disagree that combos are less prevalent in Ultimate. Every character currently considered among the best has amazing strings and kill confirms. Lucas has a few kill confirms himself, but dtilt and dair aren't exactly the best neutral tools.

Out of curiosity, how would you go about buffing Lucas?

I still stand by nair as one of the most useful tools in lucas' kit. I find myself using nair when oponnents get in your face, then after stringing a couple of nairs together follow up with jab and then try to zone them out from there, rinse and repeat. Great for gaining momentum and not difficult to use.

Look at a character like Yoshi, Snake, and Palutena. All High tier ish, and they don't rely much on combos. Fox lost a lot of his throw combos and still performs really well in tournament. And theres characters like Luigi, Ice Climbers, Bayonetta, Ryu/Ken. All of those characters have a really strong combo game but they lack a solid neutral (or killpower), which is really what I feel makes or breaks a character in smash ultimate. I'm not saying combos aren't important...because they're incredibly useful in gaining momentum and building damage for weaker characters. But they're not essential for making a good character.


Lucas is somewhat well rounded but needs better damage output. There's two ways of going about that, either give him combos or increase the base damage on a lot of his moves. I wouldn't go crazy buffing Lucas. He's not super awfulor anything, he could use some tweaks though.

Back air-needs a more reliable spike
Down air-less landing lag
PK Thunder-Needs to travel faster in the air, really pretty mediocre offensively.

And either bring back his downthrow combo or preferably increase base damage on nair since its more reliable to use without grabs.

 

[Specs64z]

I still stand by nair as one of the most useful tools in lucas' kit. I find myself using nair when [opponents] get in your face, then after stringing a couple of nairs together follow up with jab and then try to zone them out from there, rinse and repeat. Great for gaining momentum and not difficult to use.

I can't think of a character who really tries to get in your face other than Fox or Pichu, but even then their frames are way better than nair can hope to compete with.

Palutena ... Yoshi ... don't rely much on combos.

Snake is a good point, but even he has kill confirms out of throws.

Fox lost a lot of his throw combos and still performs really well in tournament. And theres characters like Luigi, Ice Climbers, Bayonetta, Ryu/Ken. All of those characters have a really strong combo game but they lack a solid neutral (or killpower), which is really what I feel makes or breaks a character in smash ultimate. I'm not saying combos aren't important...because they're incredibly useful in gaining momentum and building damage for weaker characters. But they're not essential for making a good character.

Fox never relied on throw combos in the first place. All those combo characters you mentioned don't have the potential Lucas does because they lack proper zoning and are generally less well rounded than Lucas.

Lucas is somewhat well rounded but needs better damage output. There's two ways of going about that, either give him combos or increase the base damage on a lot of his moves. I wouldn't go crazy buffing Lucas. He's not super [awful or] anything, he could use some tweaks though.

Back air-needs a more reliable spike
Down air-less landing lag
PK Thunder-Needs to travel faster in the air, really pretty mediocre offensively.

And either bring back his downthrow combo or preferably increase base damage on nair since its more reliable to use without grabs.

I think a nair that functions like Pit or Palu's (so basically smash 4 nair) would do wonders. You could get so much more out of a tool like that, they wouldn't even need to buff the damage imo. Having dthrow set up to uair strings at low percents would also go a long way in giving utility to an otherwise bad move. I also think his throws should send at lower angles (and nerf the knockback appropriately to compensate). Since Lucas lacks a way to limit a foes off stage options, the lower angle would make his gimping all the more brutal.

 

[MERPIS]

Fast fall up air is stupidly good and so is fair, I think he needs less endlag on some of his moves particularly up tilt and down air's landing lag, as well as a massive buff to nair, there's no reason why that move has to be as poor as it is why does it launch behind him when moves which previously did that like rob's down smash and pikachu's bair, were fixed to not do that? Also is has way too many frames of landing lag. Another buff I think should be implemented which is a rather unorthodox one, is the sour spot fair, maybe remove some of its knockback so that it can combo easily into other moves even at high or kill percents.