Lucaryu Official Discussion thread

[Eggz]

In project M we more commonly call it B reversing or reverse b-reversing (depending on if you face the other way or stay facing the same way when you change momentum). It's the use of a special followed by an input in the direction opposite what your character is facing to make them suddenly reverse their momentum. vBawrlers use it as a mobility option, but it doesn't see as much light in P:M because we aren't restricted to essentially just walking and jumping otherwise...

Wasnt that already in brawl and called b reversal? Lol

 

[iLink]

It's exactly the same thing. People just never settled on a single name for it.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yeah they already called it both b-reversal and wavebouncing. The difference is that most P:M players don't call it wavebouncing, and shouldn't, because it's a ******** name.

 

[Eggz]

Cool, just makin sure were not namin ****.

 

[Aenglaan]

This is the truth, I maimed him hard in 2.1, played quite a few good players with him and I would like to believe I was very, very good with lucario. His "changes" hurt him more than I think a lot of you realize. As "minor" as they may be.

That's certainly true. Without a doubt one of the worst nerfs on Lucario has to be his mid-air side B. In 2.1, it was very easy to get opponents into the grab, but now it feels like it's almost impossible.

As much as I like how Lucario's n-air, Up smash, and down smash were buffed, they don't seem to make a difference when the rest of his moves have small nerfs that drastically change how good he is.

 

[Eggz]

Nair was buffed? Seems way harder to hit with actually

 

[ThirstenHunger]

lucario is def TT and ****s on ganons...his speed, ability to pressure on the ground AND in the air, and control the stage with 3+ projectiles...hes gross...im really starting to get how hard BALANCING actually must be...good to see other character potential tho instead of shiek marth spacies only in tournaments

 

[Dubforce]

Yeah lucario is pretty badass. He is very technical to use and he styles on people, so of course he will be placing high in tournies. Same goes for sonic imo.

 

[EmuKiller]

Hey! I main(ed) lucario and love the balance changes addressed with 2.5. His down-b was really silly in 2.1 and I'm glad it feels tougher to combo f-air -> f-b now (or maybe I was just playing vs more floaty characters? not sure).

Eggz you play as lucario? Cool! I can't wait to see tournament videos of your playstyle.

People that are upset with changes need to adapt. Lucario was pretty silly in 2.1 and now it's just a matter of actually learning the game/character.

PS: Anyone have thoughts on "whiffing with a forward A+B causes you to lose the charge"? It was something I proposed a longgg time ago and was wondering if anyone else has an opinion on it being used to force lucario to be more technical, by only hitting A on reaction to seeing the grab connect.

 

[iLink]

That hardly makes him more technical, and you already get punished for whiffing it most of the time anyway. I already just press the A button on reaction anyway so it doesn't really change anything.

 

[Dice307]

ok guys i dont understand something... i have played against a G&W,snake,shiek and a few other characters that have fast D-tilts... I start doing a ground combo and after i start the combo they can just crouch cancel and d-tilt through it(just hold down and spam A). which i thought you had to crouch cancele before the combo starts.

also OHC does not work in certain ways as in U-smash side b,F-air side b, D-air side b, F-smash side b when close lol theres a pattern and all of his grabs haha Nerf not including u-throw.

 

[Hashtag]

Hey! I main(ed) lucario and love the balance changes addressed with 2.5. His down-b was really silly in 2.1 and I'm glad it feels tougher to combo f-air -> f-b now (or maybe I was just playing vs more floaty characters? not sure).

Eggz you play as lucario? Cool! I can't wait to see tournament videos of your playstyle.

People that are upset with changes need to adapt. Lucario was pretty silly in 2.1 and now it's just a matter of actually learning the game/character.

PS: Anyone have thoughts on "whiffing with a forward A+B causes you to lose the charge"? It was something I proposed a longgg time ago and was wondering if anyone else has an opinion on it being used to force lucario to be more technical, by only hitting A on reaction to seeing the grab connect.

The only thing to me that made sense in your post was the need to adapt to the new lucario if you still want to play him.

I simply pointed out that his "minor" nerfs hurt him more than some people may realize. This in itself causes you to have to adapt again.

 

[EmuKiller]

@ iLink: I think it does make him more technical, but yeah it is unnecessary. It just feels weird that doing any other super special move on accident causes you to lose the charge, but not forward B.

@ Ehrgeiz: My post about learning to adapt wasn't targeted at anyone in particular. I just wanted to get my $0.02 that lucario is still fine because I imagine people are upset with the changes.

 

[Tero.]

@ iLink: I think it does make him more technical, but yeah it is unnecessary. It just feels weird that doing any other super special move on accident causes you to lose the charge, but not forward B.
.

This is because you dont use Super Side B by pressing B + A but rather by pressing A during your side B grab.
If you don't hit with side B you can't use (and lose) your charge.
Same goes for Up B.

 

[EmuKiller]

I know it's possible even with what I proposed to always guarantee you don't lose the charge when you whiff.

I'd like to see a skill gap between those that can hit A after seeing the grab and those that can't.

 

[JUGGERNAUT043]

Random but why is theyer more lag on double team in demo 2.5?

 

[JUGGERNAUT043]

also i cant say for certain but is lucario weaker than his previous builds? like i know they took away his rapid pummel for no reason at all but are his attacks weaker in power and knockback?

 

[Revven]

If you'd read a couple of posts back, the reason why Down B is slower has been explained already.

Also, no, his attacks aren't "weaker", to my knowledge. And the pummel change was a global change, Lucario wasn't just singled out.

 

[iLink]

Lucario's is ridiculously slow compared to others lol. Not sure how much damage each pummel does though so it might not be a bad thing.

 

[CORY]

i just liked hitting between 0-1% 20 times a second D : i'm so sad now.

 

[drsusredfish]

if they make side B+A use a charge on a non grab then the blue attack thing should have marth neutral B-like shield breaker strength or something.

 

[Spiffykins]

if they make side B+A use a charge on a non grab then the blue attack thing should have marth neutral B-like shield breaker strength or something.

I'd be okay with that, but I don't really see the point. I don't think it would really be worth wasting a charge on and as iLink said, you can press A in reaction to getting the FP grab so it wouldn't change anything if it did expend a charge anyway.

As for the whole 2.5 "nerf or change" thing, I'm leaning toward the nerf side. I mentioned this on the Lucario board at smashmods, but I believe the ideal for double team would be to return it to its former glory ONLY after a direct hit. I'm fine with the delay when it's used straight up and I'm fine with the delay when it's used after hitting a shield. Being able to spam it in those situations was imba, OP, overcentralizing, etc, and would be even more so now that you can reverse it. What I really miss is how good it was for combos and maintaining offensive momentum.

 

[Hashtag]

As for the whole 2.5 "nerf or change" thing, I'm leaning toward the nerf side. I mentioned this on the Lucario board at smashmods, but I believe the ideal for double team would be to return it to its former glory ONLY after a direct hit. I'm fine with the delay when it's used straight up and I'm fine with the delay when it's used after hitting a shield. Being able to spam it in those situations was imba, OP, overcentralizing, etc, and would be even more so now that you can reverse it. What I really miss is how good it was for combos and maintaining offensive momentum.

I could get down with this actually.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Or what if it were slower than before, but faster than now? I mean **** it's slow now, I'm sure there's a healthy middle ground...

 

[Spiffykins]

Or what if it were slower than before, but faster than now? I mean **** it's slow now, I'm sure there's a healthy middle ground...

That'd definitely be better than leaving it as-is, but I don't believe such a potent tool for Lucario's combo game should be weakened at all when he is basically THE combo character. However, my idea was simply what I think would be ideal and I'd understand if due to technical limitations a more basic compromise was reached instead.

 

[DrinkingFood]

...comboing isn't all there is to the game, it's like not even the largest single portion. What down-b had in usefulness before may have been too good in other aspects of the game, especially having a free way out of lots of gimps/juggling/projectiles, and free cross-ups on block.

 

[Tero.]

I hate Lucario in 2.5
I'll be playing Sonic now

 

[drsusredfish]

2.5 lucario definatley isn't as good as 2.1 but he does have a few things i like over 2.1, not many, but the few are nice.

the new Aura Ball Cancel is a step in the right direction for that move since he doesn't go into sheild. on what frame can you cancel aura ball now? I can't test it but it feels like frame 8.

if i recall correctly 2.1 lucario's fair and up air didn't auto cancel from a short hop so thats moderatley good. tilts are better. dtilt is your new go to move.

upsmash links better than 2.1 but still cant jump cancel it on the first hit but thats not a big deal and its how he's always been.

there are other buffs but they get counteracted by nerfs on the same move.

down b: B-reversable +, sliding after cancel +,
slow start up negates usefulness both of these -

up B: ending hit box makes it harder to punish on hit +
no auto cancel. can't drag opponent off stage for semi spike because ending hit box hits enemy up -

overall his KO moves are better at KOing but they don't get comboed into well at higher percents. and are hard to hit by themselves

the only move that may have got straight nerfs with no buffs is side b.


I don't hate him and i'm still going to play him he's just not as big a threat as he used to be. guess he won waaaay to many tournaments.

 

[DrinkingFood]

guess he won waaaay to many tournaments.

That's why they nerfed Ike
Lucario didn't win that many tournies at all
but because he's a super combo *****
and got free grabs during shield pressure
and nothing else was ever dedicated on block
*coughspaciescough*
he is clearly broken and got the nerf hammer

 

[Karnu]

I can see why people are upset about the new Lucario

I got my NTSC disc and started P:M. I'm most upset about his teal colour being replaced by dark gray, I'm gonna change it back

 

[Giygacoal]

I too support the idea of having the faster down-b returned but restricted to hit-cancel use. Pit and Wario have very similar concepts on their side-bs.

The current down-b...sucks.

 

[iLink]

I can see why people are upset about the new Lucario

I got my NTSC disc and started P:M. I'm most upset about his teal colour being replaced by dark gray, I'm gonna change it back

qft

I just replaced the dark color with mewtwo.


Anyway, DownB did need to be nerfed. It basically made him not have to commit to anything on shield and was safe as long as he didn't whiff an attack. It's slow enough now that if he hits your shield with something and tries to downb, you can at least shield grab it. My only issue with it now is that it definitely made him loss some offensive prowess. I'm kind of hoping they can find some middle ground between his old DownB and the new one for the next update.

I also hope they are able to revert his SideB to it's old speed if it isn't chained into. I'm ok with it being the speed it is at now if you do chain into it. I thought it might also be cool to give the aura attack on SideB a charge version that did a decent amount of shield damage. Not sure how broken that would be for him though.

He still has plenty of stuff to still work with though. His fair is great now. ASC from short ground chains are good for shield pressure. Dash attack is still really good. If you hit with dash attack and ASC, you can follow with a fair if they DI up or chase them with another dash attack if they DI away. Dsmash being so fast is surprisingly good. Faster dtilt gives you another ground option outside of dash attack that doesn't put you into as much commitment if you whiff while still being combo friendly.

 

[CORY]

I got my NTSC disc and started P:M. I'm most upset about his teal colour being replaced by dark gray, I'm gonna change it back

no way, man! dark grey is top tier! (anubis is s tier)

and the way i'd like to see downb changed is to keep it with the current start up (the logic behind that part of the change makes sense), but make the entire move last the same amount of frames as it did in 2.1. so, the dash portion would move faster/further, so you can use it in offensive chains for followups the same way you could in 2.1, but it's not just a free runway with reverseb.

 

[Spiffykins]

no way, man! dark grey is top tier! (anubis is s tier)

and the way i'd like to see downb changed is to keep it with the current start up (the logic behind that part of the change makes sense), but make the entire move last the same amount of frames as it did in 2.1. so, the dash portion would move faster/further, so you can use it in offensive chains for followups the same way you could in 2.1, but it's not just a free runway with reverseb.

Wouldn't he end up with an insane amount of momentum if he cancels it? I suppose that could be kinda cool actually. If the speed started high and tapered off throughout the dash animation (or vice versa), you'd be able to time your cancel to change how much momentum you keep out of it.

I'd still prefer just to have the old one back for combos.

 

[Karnu]

Change the Dark grey texture

Also, how does Lucario's Super DownB and UpB work?

 

[DrinkingFood]

Super down-b causes any normal inputted to interrupt the down-b animation. If you land just before you cancel down-b, it'll cancel into grounded moves. Used to be amazing, now down-b is very mediocre.
Super up-b allows you to interrupt the up-b animation with a short pelvic thrust animation that has a hitbox. The pelvic thrust can be canceled instantly into anything except another up-b. If done into the ground, you'll land as you do the pelvic thrust and be able to cancel into grounded moves. Up-b along ground->cancel into dsmash is a godlike finisher.

 

[iLink]

The up-b cancel animation has a hitbox? I've never noticed lol.

Downb-b cancel still has some use. If I'm having a hard time getting in on someone, I sometimes do it to get some invincibility in on my approach and set up some pressure or even a combo if it catches them off guard.

 

[Magus420]

Down-b cancels give you 10 frames of intangibility at the beginning of the move you cancel into. If you down-b to f-tilt for example you're unhittable from the start of the down-b dash up to and including the 1st hit frame of f-tilt.

 

[CORY]

Wouldn't he end up with an insane amount of momentum if he cancels it?

you know... i didn't think that part through, you're right : p

I'd still prefer just to have the old one back for combos.

this seems like a good idea, then.

 

[Spiffykins]

Super up-b allows you to interrupt the up-b animation with a short pelvic thrust animation that has a hitbox. The pelvic thrust can be canceled instantly into anything except another up-b.

You can cancel back into up-B after hitting an aerial, though. Really helpful for getting vertical kills and gimps, but if you mess up offstage, gg.