Lucario's overall changes in Smash 4

[Rafitak]

I disagree completely. The n-air hitbox seems good enough to keep out of the majority of grab ranges when spaced right. Ya know, minus ridiculous ones like Zard. I rarely ever approach from the air, but given how good the cool down and start up is, I think the range is perfectly fine.

Have the tournaments you have been playing allow customs?

If not, do you generally prefer any customer over the default?
================

How do you all approach with Lucario?

Usually with Swords/brawlers: Keep distance

Gunners: Face to Face combat

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

What are the inputs I'll test it out.

Try inputting a regular DACUS, but use FSmash.

Oh by the by... Lucario's Dash Attack goes over grounded Ness' PK Thunder bolt.

Fast falled DAir first hit to something has potential. I haven't gotten much out of it though might be able to do a tilt out of it...

Oh and by the by... WE CAN LAND INTO FORCE PALM GRAB :3 If you wanna try some mindgames... DAir on shield to landing Force Palm. Mind you this is not really safe, but it is an option.

Also... Double Team out of shield is a pretty nice option too.

Is FTilt faster than Jab now? It kinda seems like it?

Also if you use FP on Palutena's Reflect at higher %s both you and her will take a hit, lol.

Who is good at getting frame data? There are a lot of interesting changes... (I am more curious about FTilt and Double Team more than anything else.)

Edit: You also need to do 9% more than another attack to outprioritize it. This is kinda important when we think about using Aura Sphere.

 

[hichez50]

Try inputting a regular DACUS, but use FSmash.

I don't have a cstick though?

 

[Rizen]

Thanks for answering my questions It's weird to think of Lucario having a bad air game, considering how he played in Brawl.
Later.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Have the tournaments you have been playing allow customs?

If not, do you generally prefer any customer over the default?

Yyyyup, customs were legal, but around the time I didn't unlock any, and for the most part, not many others were using customs.
I have the majority of Lucario's now though.

All the forcepalm variations I can see being viable.
Lunging forcepalm looks like a good counterpick moveset to opponents with reflectors, and wide forcepalm just looks like a good poke in general. It's range is ridiculous. For now, i'll probably stick to normal force palm, but I'll probably counterpick with the lunge one one of these days, so long as customs remain legal.

I'll more then likely also replace double team with stunning double team. It's range isn't as amazing, but at low percent you get guarantied grab follow ups, and at higher percent you get a free u-smash. The fact that it stuns them immediately after getting hit puts it above the other in my mind. So, I defs prefer that one over the normal, blockable counter.

Is FTilt faster than Jab now? It kinda seems like it?

If that's true there's like, no reason to use normal jab ever, pfft.
I kinda thought that too, but I don't think so. I think f-tilt may be slightly slower, but I should probably still be using it over jab in most situations. I still use jab as a pressure options out of habit from brawl. :T It's just so unreliable now...

 

[King Funk]

All the forcepalm variations I can see being viable.
Lunging forcepalm looks like a good counterpick moveset to opponents with reflectors, and wide forcepalm just looks like a good poke in general. It's range is ridiculous. For now, i'll probably stick to normal force palm, but I'll probably counterpick with the lunge one one of these days, so long as customs remain legal.

I'll more then likely also replace double team with stunning double team. It's range isn't as amazing, but at low percent you get guarantied grab follow ups, and at higher percent you get a free u-smash. The fact that it stuns them immediately after getting hit puts it above the other in my mind. So, I defs prefer that one over the normal, blockable counter.

I think the long range force palm is not really worth using as it has less knockback than the regular one and a terrible grab to it. Lunging force palm is interesting but still has less knockback and no blast. I think regular is the best.

Not sure what to think about the double team customs as I have little experience using them.

One thing I will say though, that slow fireball is super annoying for some matchups haha

 

[Loota]

Count me in as a returning Lucario main despite being terrified of Lucario's changes at first. I was foolishly trying to import my Brawlcario directly into the game and desperately trying to make the things and tricks work I were familiar with. But now after playing around with him furiously I've grown to appreciate all the amazing, even some unfairly unique stuff he has.

The one thing that struck me was that his jab is such a bad move now. That was one of the major things I just couldn't get into despite ftilt being quite fast as a replacement since no direct followups are possible anymore. I continued practicing and adapting to the new playstyles, especially with our new gift of platform canceling with dair which is seriously awesome and seemingly a completely unique trait in the game. Only then it struck me that it works because dair has next to no landing lag. It's also no news that it has that first hitbox that practically only stuns the opponent for a very short while. I haven't yet gotten to test it that much against human players but it seems to actually work practically as a normal jab which would be huge. It hasn't got the same range as a normal jab would and sometimes the second hit actually connects and sends the opponent away but damn, I can actually "jab" -> force palm, even from a run or a platform cancel <3

From a topic to another, has someone tested how reliable our upthrow's followup potential is? I'd kill to have another setup for fair other than utilt. Also, how useful have you found aura sphere charge to be this time around? I've seriously tried to implement it into my game despite it not having any outstanding followups as nair has no range on the back and fair is really situational. Shield upsmash seems to somewhat work but I'm not sure at all.

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

I'm really not fond of Lucario;s ftilt change from a meaty poke to a quick jab. It being super meaty was great against characters like diddy in brawl.

His Jab is awful, you might as well ftilt or dtilt instead of jabbing. If you do manage to get the jab at low percents it does lead to a fair/grounded mindgame setup.

His Up-B recovery is going to take a WHILE to master. I was practicing using it to "scrooge" under battlefield. Did it once, you do need your second jump for it.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I'm really not fond of Lucario;s ftilt change from a meaty poke to a quick jab. It being super meaty was great against characters like diddy in brawl.

His Jab is awful, you might as well ftilt or dtilt instead of jabbing. If you do manage to get the jab at low percents it does lead to a fair/grounded mindgame setup.

His Up-B recovery is going to take a WHILE to master. I was practicing using it to "scrooge" under battlefield. Did it once, you do need your second jump for it.

Shippo, want me to show you how incredible Smash 4 Lucario really is? I wanna convince you to main him again.

Also we're able to hit people hanging on ledges at higher percents with Aura Sphere. They don't get like any invincibility if they grab the ledge a second time without landing/getting hit. Use this to your advantage, heh.

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

Shippo, want me to show you how incredible Smash 4 Lucario really is? I wanna convince you to main him again.

Also we're able to hit people hanging on ledges at higher percents with Aura Sphere. They don't get like any invincibility if they grab the ledge a second time without landing/getting hit. Use this to your advantage, heh.

As I thought about the day I'm still going to play Lucario, but I'm juggling 3 characters right now to see who I'd like the most. If you want to discuss it you should add me on skype or something.

 

[Zoa]

Couple of thoughts after testing Lucario and Falcon some today:

-Dthrow leads a free uair KO if you burn your DJ quickly enough at 90%-ish and opponent is at high percent.
-Fair is now a set up option for a TON of options at the expense of your DJ. Low to mid percents I could follow with uair, FCAS, dair, nair, fair itself again, and FP flame. If only he could do Project M's air grab spikes. u.u
-Dtilt is actually a surprisingly decent set up option at mid percents.
-What the flying **** happened to jab? It's like the IASA frames are completely gone, can't jab cancel, and it doesn't string properly.
-Dsmash actually hits at the same range from Brawl. o.O
-Fsmash got a range nerf it seems.
-Usmash range seems the same, though it's better overall.
-Absolutely liking DT.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

While testing %s for the Aura Chart...

• FSmash still has a large amount of IASA frames, dunno if the IASA frames have changed at all.
• Lucario's Aura Cap seems to be at 190%. His FTilt increases in damage until then.
• I mentioned in the other thread, but Lucario has a sweet spot for his UTilt that does a little more damage. It is the shiny (visual crescent arc) of it and it kills significantly earlier than the hitbox literally touching Lucario's body.

I'll do more on the Aura Chart later. My eyes hurt a little from playing as many games as I have >.>

I'll probably let the people in #lucario know more detailed progress as I work through this chart...

 

[Zoa]

@ MythTrainerInfinity

Have you considered using the aura percentages I've find for Lucario to round down from to find the exact percent his moves increase by 1%? The idea just came to me.

 

[Zoa]

Also for whoever's interested, I was running tests for Lucario's air game, and I think nair is supposed to fill some of the roles fair lost. I'm finding it to be a good aerial filler after a fair. I'm able to do fair -> nair -> dair/fair/uair/nair again. Fair hits with more knockback and has higher aura scaling now, and the angle at which it sends leads me to believe it was meant to be changed as a set up option now. Nair lost damage and knockback scaling significantly, but has less aerial lag. The damage on it is at that point where it lets it be a decent filler for an aerial combo.

$0.02

 

[Loota]

Is it just me or is an instant dair faster than shielding and dropping the shield when cancelling an aura sphere charge? Dair's mechanics and utilities continue to amaze me consistently, that move seems to be an incredible tool all around.

Now if someone found out where all the range of nair has gone I'd be happy for the rest of my life.

EDIT: Upthrow/fthrow -> upB is now my favourite thing ever.

EDIT2: Lucario has massive RCO lag on his next landing if he lands extremespeed on his feet ._. I managed to get it on some other instances too but I'm not too sure of the requirements. Not a problem though if you remember to cancel it properly but otherwise you'll be standing around for almost a whole second before getting to move again.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

@ MythTrainerInfinity

Have you considered using the aura percentages I've find for Lucario to round down from to find the exact percent his moves increase by 1%? The idea just came to me.

I've been testing the exact percent a move increases by 1% in damage. This is important with the way the game treats priority.

 

[RT]

I love moments when you can ES into someone followed by jab combo into something else.

So stupid.

 

[Zoa]

I've been testing the exact percent a move increases by 1% in damage. This is important with the way the game treats priority.

That's what I mean. I provided the aura damages in 10% increments for most of Luc's moves. That should narrow down the range of what percent each move increases by 1%. That should make it much easier for your research.

Let's use bair as an example. It increases from 9% to 10% by the time Lucario has 10% damage. Just round it down from there to find the exact percent it increases to 10% for bair.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

That's what I mean. I provided the aura damages in 10% increments for most of Luc's moves. That should narrow down the range of what percent each move increases by 1%. That should make it much easier for your research.

Let's use bair as an example. It increases from 9% to 10% by the time Lucario has 10% damage. Just round it down from there to find the exact percent it increases to 10% for bair.

Thank you.

It also looks like Lucario's Aura calculation changes when he hits 70% and the aura increases much faster. In Brawl it changed at 75%.

He seriously starts hitting as hard as Brawl G&W starting in the 80%-90% range.

Hmmm Lucario's regular landing animation has IASA frames... I think his DSmash has some too.

 

[RT]

It was probably done intentionally so that it starts stacking with additional knockback from rage mechanic.

 

[Zoa]

Thank you.

It also looks like Lucario's Aura calculation changes when he hits 70% and the aura increases much faster. In Brawl it changed at 75%.

He seriously starts hitting as hard as Brawl G&W starting in the 80%-90% range.

Hmmm Lucario's regular landing animation has IASA frames... I think his DSmash has some too.

Not a problem. I really look forward to your finished aura chart. If you need any assistance, I would be happy to help. Thanks for the additional information as well.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Interesting... Lucario can slide a little when he does a pivot jump canceled Up Smash. If it hasn't been named yet I call dibs!

Also, if you pivot cancel into jump you keep your running momentum if you time it right.

Edit: NAir has two different hitboxes and they can both hit together, but it is very hard to do.

 

[RT]

You're...not being serious about naming it something right?

If you do, I will just have to call you dumb. Let's not forget about inkdropping.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Lucario's BAir only has one hitbox that does the same damage regardless of when/where you hit someone with it.

Lucario's UAir butt hitbox (weaker hit) seems to be carried over from Brawl. However, you must hit with the initial burst of his foot for more damage.

 

[SimonBarSinister]

After using Lucario a few times, I found out quickly that he's a much faster attacker than his previous form. His aura is stronger, but it doesn't last as long after an attack anymore, which was something I was used to. I guess more precision is required in my approaches. That being said, he's still pretty awesome.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

So... Lucario's UThrow is weird.

The hitbox from the throw (not the character getting thrown) does much more knockback than the actual throw.

Try this at the middle of FD at 148% in training mode with two Marios and have them standing right next to each other. UThrow and watch the one behind the Mario getting thrown die. lol Sakuraiiiiii

 

[Rafitak]

Sorry new player here. But what do you all mean by up b cancel on landing? How is that done?

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

So... Lucario's UThrow is weird.

The hitbox from the throw (not the character getting thrown) does much more knockback than the actual throw.

Try this at the middle of FD at 148% in training mode with two Marios and have them standing right next to each other. UThrow and watch the one behind the Mario getting thrown die. lol Sakuraiiiiii

Doubles shenanigans

 

[hichez50]

So... Lucario's UThrow is weird.

The hitbox from the throw (not the character getting thrown) does much more knockback than the actual throw.

Try this at the middle of FD at 148% in training mode with two Marios and have them standing right next to each other. UThrow and watch the one behind the Mario getting thrown die. lol Sakuraiiiiii

This property is kinda nice. It allows lucario to have throw follow ups at higher percents. Originally down throw does more knock back, but eventually up throw does just as much knock back as down throw with more damage! It is actually quite useful.

 

[BridgesWithTurtles]

I'm considering Lucario as a secondary. After maining him in Brawl, I really didn't like the changes made to him in PM. Don't get me wrong, he's fantastic in that game and his moveset reflects his character much more than either of Sakurai's versions, but it's not my kind of playstyle. Now that I'm trying him in Smash 4, he feels very different. I can't tell if PM just ruined me, or if he was severely changed from Brawl, but I feel like it's both. The F-air in particular seems so much less useful in aerial play now, which is disappointing. Dash attack is insane, though, and at high percents, Force Palm is ridiculous. I think he has a solid defensive core to him, now, which is great to see.

 

[Savez]

I don't really know where to post this so I'll do it here.

Has the aura portion of the Force Palm always been considered by the game as a pojectile? I hate this so much. I can't appoach Palutena because she just reflect everything or just stalls teleporting to the other side of the map. And both her and Mario can just reflect back to me my force palm if I don't grab them so I have to be VERY conservative with both my ranged options.

Anyway he feels good and I love some of the customs expecially the one that gives multiple sweetspots on his upb

 

[Zwzchow]

I hate it when I can't hit a PK magnet ness

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

It was nice seeing Lucario in tournament a lot more. In a recent local Nairo brought him out and did pretty good with him. With custom moves on (and legal) around here, I prefer to use the Extended Force Palm. It covers insane distance and it's still a decent grab.
For recovery I leave it as normal. You can use ride the wind, but that end hitbox is EXTREMELY important now that we have it. You can use ride the wind if you're confident in recovering to the other side of the stage.
Standard Aura Sphere is my choice, may consider using the quicker one. It's a great tool to use to just shoot across but in exchange you loose a pretty good edgeguarding tool.
All the counter's besides the normal one are terrible. Regular Down B Is an extremely good kill move considering the game's new mechanics.

 

[RT]

I have to pretty much agree for custom moves.

The extended Force Palm may actually be worse in some matchups because it doesn't do as much damage and I think slower, but it still works.

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

I have to pretty much agree for custom moves.

The extended Force Palm may actually be worse in some matchups because it doesn't do as much damage and I think slower, but it still works.

I can actually see it being a detriment against Megaman (Skull), Palutena (Half her moveset), Ness, G&W, Fox/Falco,

 

[Kami~]

About lucarios garbage jab, if you slow it down all hits seem to connect much more consistent

though im not sure if some characters can act out of it in time or not, they probably can. som1 prove me wrong

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Lucario's second Jab seems to have IASA frames that only work to go back to Jab 1 if you choose to not go to Jab 3.

The IASA frames seem to occur when he pulls his paw back past his head during Jab 2. I tested it by holding down shield at 1/4x speed training mode.

Also worth mentioning that FTilt angled down can actually duck under some projectiles, tilts, and the early hitboxes of some smashes. Since the Aura hitbox is disjointed we can hit first with it if timed properly... If only we had the frame data...

 

[Savez]

Can someone confirm that the command grab hitbox is smaller?

 

[Kami~]

Can someone confirm that the command grab hitbox is smaller?

I dont have proof but it feels very much more small compared to brawl. Ask anyone who has the game and they should say the same.

 

[Pitbuller26]

Maybe it's me, but Lucario's range on his normals are much more smaller. It could be online or the controls but at spaces where I think his tilts should hit, they don't. Or it could also be the lack of lingering hitboxes is why I have this perception.