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Meta Lucario vs Ness MU thread

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Lucario vs Ness


General tips:

What to look out for:

What aim for:

What stages to go for or ban:

Key videos:

Lets's get started.
 
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nahgato

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General tips: play as safe as possible at higher percents ness can kill luc easily so watch out for grabs. when trapped in pk fire u can Down-B out of it. try not using it every time use it as a last resort. avoid using AS carelessly due to it can heal ness and he can F-smash it back at u. ness is light so its easy to kill him.

What to look out for: Mainly getting AS batted back at u and healing ness

What aim for:playing safe and getting in and out while racking up damage
 

MythTrainerInfinity

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Isn't Ness one of the easier characters to hit during the ledge grab vulnerability frames?

Uh, if you get hit during PKT2 and stage tech he will not go as far. Other than that I'm really not sure what to do in this MU.
 

Pitbuller26

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This matchup is like Mario where the character literally has an answer to every single thing we do, unlike Mario, Ness doesn't really fear Aura because he has back throw.

Not much we can do. One of Lucario's worst matchups. We can't really edgeguard him thanks to Sakurai making Lucario's aerials complete trash when it comes to edgeguarding.

Fair sends Ness upwards.
Bair, too slow to edgeguard with.
Dair, our best bet. If we miss, we get PKT2'd
Uair, why am I saving Ness?
 

Zander2Green

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How I deal with the ness matchup:

Take character select token off of lucario

Move it to sheik
I am glad this is a shared feeling.
Honestly, picking a different character is a better option. Ness' neutral spacing outranges and outspeeds ours, we don't have great ways to gimp his recovery outside of drop down aura spheres and maybe a well used counter or bair. Back throw. And if we're off stage and below the stage, recovering is tricky as nair covers a ton of range.
It's like picking Ness vs Rosalina. Don't.
 

chaos_Leader

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I don't understand why the huge fuss. I do on a conceptual level, that Ness has plenty of advantages and in really good hands is a pain to deal with. In my experiences though, both online and at tournament play, Ness players tend to fall into hilariously predictable patterns. It feels like they know the matcup is supposed to be heavily in their favor, and somehow that makes it okay in their subconscious mind to not take the match seriously, and in so doing I am provided ample opportunities to bait out specific reactions and punish hard.

These players I was up against didn't make these lapses in judgment when I chose any other fighter, and were tough nuts to crack. Put them up against Lucario though, and suddenly psi magnet becomes the move of the day.

It seems to be a common theme I run accross, that players using characters with specific countermeasures against projectIles (Mario cape, Villager pocket, Rosalina gravity pull, G&W bucket) will start to predict Aura sphere at every opportunity, and in so doing become so predictable and maliable to manipulation.
 
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Incenetum

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*******, GA. I'm not kidding.
I don't understand why the huge fuss. I do on a conceptual level, that Ness has plenty of advantages and in really good hands is a pain to deal with. In my experiences though, both online and at tournament play, Ness players tend to fall into hilariously predictable patterns. It feels like they know the matcup is supposed to be heavily in their favor, and somehow that makes it okay in their subconscious mind to not take the match seriously, and in so doing I am provided ample opportunities to bait out specific reactions and punish hard.

These players I was up against didn't make these lapses in judgment when I chose any other fighter, and were tough nuts to crack. Put them up against Lucario though, and suddenly psi magnet becomes the move of the day.

It seems to be a common theme I run accross, that players using characters with specific countermeasures against projectIles (Mario cape, Villager pocket, Rosalina gravity pull, G&W bucket) will start to predict Aura sphere at every opportunity, and in so doing become so predictable and maliable to manipulation.
wouldnt that just make u the better player then? you adapt to their adaptations, you out-neutral them and command grab kill them at 30, you win. From what you guys all say Ness wins the MU, but it's not as bad as say Melee Peach ICs or something. I guess the equivalent would be sheik ganon here idk, but it seems like youre just a better player whos winning a bad MU
 

Pitbuller26

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I don't understand why the huge fuss. I do on a conceptual level, that Ness has plenty of advantages and in really good hands is a pain to deal with. In my experiences though, both online and at tournament play, Ness players tend to fall into hilariously predictable patterns. It feels like they know the matcup is supposed to be heavily in their favor, and somehow that makes it okay in their subconscious mind to not take the match seriously, and in so doing I am provided ample opportunities to bait out specific reactions and punish hard.

These players I was up against didn't make these lapses in judgment when I chose any other fighter, and were tough nuts to crack. Put them up against Lucario though, and suddenly psi magnet becomes the move of the day.

It seems to be a common theme I run accross, that players using characters with specific countermeasures against projectIles (Mario cape, Villager pocket, Rosalina gravity pull, G&W bucket) will start to predict Aura sphere at every opportunity, and in so doing become so predictable and maliable to manipulation.
Aura Sphere is Lucario's only move that isn't terrible. If a character has an easy reflector (Mario, Palutena, Falco, Rosalina) or absorb, that automatically shifts the matchup away from our favor by default. Then you work on numbers from there.
 

chaos_Leader

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If it's strictly a character v. character question, with hypothetically identical players on either side, who each have a healthy working knowledge of their opponent's character, then yes of course Ness has the advantage. Ness has the KO power to knock out Luc before ludicrous aura kicks in, has the psi magnet to limit the use of AS (and FP to an extent), has a solid neutral to rack up to KO%s and has a perfectly fine recovery.

Okay.

Now that we've established that the Ness character is well equipped to give our Lucario a hard time, does Ness having this advantage based on the available tools mean we shelve Lucario at the first sign of a Ness ala:
How I deal with the ness matchup:

Take character select token off of lucario

Move it to sheik
or do we find other ways to confront the matchup?

Obviously this is a question that each of us will have a different answer for. Some of us won't want to deal with the stress and strain and pick someone else (I myself will flat-out refuse to use Lucario against exceptionally good Link players, for instance, but that's a discussion for another MU thread). Others will find ways around the disadvantages and work with that.

In the Ness example for instance, one of the broader strategic choices I often make is to condition the opponent, encouraging them to make use of psi magnet. The usual way I condition the Ness player in this way is to fire several Aura Spheres when it is reasonably safe to do so: literal spamming. There have been occasions where I have fired off fully charged spheres vaguely in the opponent's direction, which I had no intent to hit, simply to plant and encourage the thought in my opponent's mind that I'm a dim-witted projectile-spamming moron who likes to use AS too much.

Somewhere in there is about when the other guy starts getting real friendly with their projectile countermeasure. It often, but not always, happens after I've accumulated a fair bit of aura on Lucario (though not much damage on the other guy), when the opponent is thinking about KO options, and when they start to think I'm really not that good a player. That's when they usually start taking me less seriously as an opponent, and slip into patterns as they put up countermeasures, and when I start reading their moves and predicting like a boss.

Once I can read and accurately predict, supposed match-up numbers mean very little. The real trick lies in finding ways to draw out specific reactions, remember and prepare for them, and all while playing your own cards close to the vest as not to have the same happen to you.

Granted, truly skilled Ness players just won't fall for these kind of strategic mental shenanigans at all: they will be reading and predicting you instead, like just about every really good player does. Personally though, when I'm up against skill of that caliber, it rarely makes much of a difference which character either of us is using: If I'm getting significantly out-played, I really don't feel there is much that changing characters can do for me: I will still be out-played regardless. Similarly if I feel like I'm really closely even with someone skill-wise in battle, with a few notable exceptions, I have such a level of comfort and familiarity using Lucario that picking any other character feels like it could be a step down in my level of play. That, or it's just a sign that I need to step-up my practice with my other characters.
 

Solaris_Noid

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On paper this is obviously skewed towards Ness's favor, but much like what Chaos says, it's only half the battle.

If I'm feeling ballsy I'll toss an AS at them or right above them and use that as a way to get in, the few players I've tried that on usually don't expect a command grab FP. If I'm just straight up outplayed then I'll switch to Sonic/Fox.
 

Steam

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The main reason I go sheik for the matchup is that ness can play so brainless and do very well. He basically just needs to tvrow out hitboxes and fish for grabs when bthrow will kill
 

Indigo_

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Ness has the obvious PSI Magnet and Baseball Bat Reflect to punish our Aura Sphere. His Rising Fair also wrecks us. I would say this is a only a -1 because Ness is fairly predictable with his grab and pk fire. Abuse shield outside of his grab range and punish bad PK fires.
 
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