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Lucario Neutral Game

Blaz1ENT

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 6, 2014
Messages
7
Location
Denton, Texas
NNID
AznInferno
3DS FC
1220-7289-2426
Hello guys, I've been playing PM Lucario since the end of last summer, and one of the biggest ruts I always end up in when playing others is neutral game. The biggest problem I've had was approach and just getting in to do combos. What would you guys as fellow Lucario mains suggest as good strategies for Lucario's neutral?
 

Schwamus

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 7, 2015
Messages
28
Location
Nashville, TN or San Diego, CA
Don't worry this isn't just you, Lucario's biggest weakness is arguably his approach game. He has very few options to approach but once he does successfully land a hit, a skilled lucario can take it to the house.

Some tips for improving your neutral that I have picked up from the board/ matches/ experience:
1) Use more aura spheres in neutral. Aura spheres at first seem almost useless because of how slow they are but they actually are one of his more powerful options imo. The key is to place them at a height where they will limit options to your opponent. If you are being approached from the air a lot (i.e. playing against Falcon) put one at short hop height/ full hop height. Aura spheres usually get respected due to their power and then it's all up to what your opponent does. If they try to hit the sphere out of the air, follow-up strong and time the approach to land just after they throw out their aerial. If they go into shield try a quick DA + fp to start a combo. Lucario is a pretty big read-based character which brings me to #2...

2) Make them come to you. Just because Luc has a sick offense doesn't mean you have to be the one to approach. Dash dance around a bit, try to bait out an approach and punish accordingly. Fake out your opponent a bit by faking an approach then backing off. Throw out a non-committal hitbox if you want (fair, jab1, ftilt) and see how your opponent reacts. Get them to chase you then turn around and punish accordingly.

3) If you want some good approach options that I use to start my strings then short hop fair is a good one. Also, MU permitting CC dtilt is a beautiful combo starter once you learn the sweetspot vs sourspot trajectories. My most reliable one (though it's less effective the more times you use it) is to dash towards them, short hop + DT through them. Usually you will be able to bait out a jab or tilt which you will DT through, then when they are stuck in the endlag for that move, turn around and quickly jab/ tilt. If you have a charge you can also SH + DT cancel + down smash + followup (ex: ASC + dash attack).
 

TimeMuffinPhD

PhD in time travel and muffins.
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
Messages
288
Location
Greenock, Scotland
NNID
TimeMuffinPhD
The guy above me gave quite a few good tips. But I'd also like to mention that his command grab is quite a good mix-up when you find yourself hitting their shield a lot. You can try approaching with f-air and instantly cancelling it into force palm, or cancelling the first hit of d-air and doing the same. Honestly perfect your movement and your options within that.
 

THEDADPOOL

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 19, 2014
Messages
53
Location
Socal
dash dance a lot bait stuff out against certain characters powershield projectiles is essentially how you play lucario nuetral like zelda you dont have to approach at all on decent size stages (ie ps2) just punish when they decide to commit to a move.

in regards to the first guy aura sphere can be good to use sparingly against certain matchups but against sonic's, falcons, falco , others there almost useless falcon can just nair right through them will still establishing pressure, sonic can jump over it and hit you and falco has pew pew/falco beats lucario on so many levels(but lucario can destroy a falco with poor tech skill. also i think he said something about dt through them do that sparingly because it has enough start up frames to react and punish with so do it when you think you can get away with it. also dt into down smash is cute way to kill its not very good its just ok and uptilt into other stuff will lead to more damage if there not at that percent.

also in regards to the second guy on bad players d-air(better option)/anyaerial on shield to side b can work but a good player will just tech in place and punish you so try not to side b in the air close to the ground/platform its only good if the person doesnt know how to punish it but believe me its punishable.

dtilt/uptilt spacing can work wonders in nuetral while they attempt to approach. dtilt good cc option. your best approach option is doubleteam uptilt cancel. so try not to miss or good by your only good approach. spaced fairs/bairs/rarbairs are good to.

if there at kill percent and you dont have aura a good way to sneak a kill in is attempt to marth them( dash towards them wavedash back and f-smash.) dont use crawl attack ever. try not to use ftilt(it has its uses but there is usually a better option). da upsmash/dair(both hits) crouch cancels (ie roy)

hope this helps. i probably can add more but i am to tired to keep writing also to give me a little creditials i do pretty decent at tourneys and while not being ipk(the best lucario until i beat him Kappa) and all, he does live 7 minutes away and i'm like his disciple so i get a lot of tips from playing him so often. also feel free to debate any of thing i mentioned.
 
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Schwamus

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 7, 2015
Messages
28
Location
Nashville, TN or San Diego, CA
Yeah I definitely am not the Lucario expert by any means but I've had a little success with him at local tourneys and figured I'd throw out my two cents on what works for me at mid-level play.

also in regards to the second guy on bad players d-air(better option)/anyaerial on shield to side b can work but a good player will just tech in place and punish you so try not to side b in the air close to the ground/platform its only good if the person doesnt know how to punish it but believe me its punishable.
I was under the impression that dair + aFP was a true combo? From what I've picked up on the board (curse you lack of frame data!) the first hit of dair has set KB that lines up to the FP, and if it hit shield, the shield stun would be enough to compensate for the 6 or 7 (don't remember which or if it even is one of those numbers) frame startup for the command grab? My understanding is the only way to beat that (assuming frame perfect inputs) was to avoid (ie: spot dodge) getting hit by the dair and not letting Luc get the OHC.

I could be wrong on that
 

THEDADPOOL

Smash Cadet
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Jun 19, 2014
Messages
53
Location
Socal
its almost true unless they buffer roll(iirc)/ spot dodge may work or the person might get hit on the second hitbox not sure regardless doing it close to the ground after afp hits if the person techs in place they can punish lucario because of the end lag of afp.example falcon shielding, lucario dashes then jumps and quickly dairs(1) into Afp. captain falcon gets hit thrown to the ground. To punish this the captain falcon should tech the afp in place after being thrown.he should then be able to grab lucario before the end lag of afp is over.

prepatch you used to be able to loop because it sent people in hitstun but now it doesn't so people assume its not punishable
 
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Risky

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 7, 2005
Messages
515
Location
Rhode Island
He's only speculating whether or not dair1 -> aFP is a true shield string, if the opponent can escape after the dair1, before the aFP. They can buffer whatever they want to escape it (roll/dodge). If I'm using this setup it's almost always OOS because dair is an excellent OOS option, and the issue I have is not them buffering an escape but me hitting the dair1, then missing the FP because I have momentum in whatever direction I jumped in.
 

ProdigyX5

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 31, 2015
Messages
26
You can also utilize Double team to your advantage with how it's been revamped in Project M.

Lucario has become more of a Mind Game approacher for me
 

Fearless

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 6, 2015
Messages
21
You have a lot of tools for mobility with your double team and aura cancels. All of lucarios aerials have a fair bit of disjoint as well, and can be used to approach relatively safely because of that. If they shield an aerial you can always either force palm offensively or double team away defensively.
 

LupinX

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
226
Is dash attack safe on shield? Could you get side-b out without being punished?

Yes you can, but don't do it to the point that it can be telegraphed. As soon as dash hits the shield immediately force palm. if you dash attack behind him while shielding, then it would be much safer to do so
 

Zoa

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
788
Been a long ass time since I've posted here. I've been attending local weeklies religiously now, and got some advice for neutral:

Don't force it.

Lucario has pretty awful options to force commitments. His universal options (DACUS, wavedash, etc.) are all pretty horrible outside of dash dancing. He has the fastest jump squat with some other characters, but the distance gained is the third worst of the cast. Double Team can solve a lot of approach issues, but it is wholly dependent on using up an invaluable charge. Aura Sphere can be decent depending on the MU, but otherwise is a pretty heavy commitment for rather little reward (why it was nerfed is beyond me). The key thing to remember is play defensively and capitalize on your opponent's mistakes. Your approach options are pretty tied to your charges and DD.

Also hi, Risky. :denzel:
 

Blaz1ENT

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 6, 2014
Messages
7
Location
Denton, Texas
NNID
AznInferno
3DS FC
1220-7289-2426
Thank you guys for all your advice and suggestions. Hopefully I can be a better Lucario player, I've kind of been lacking in my gameplay with him.
 

AkashSky

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
102
Is dash attack safe on shield? Could you get side-b out without being punished?
Dash attack into downtilt is safe on shield! But then the down tilt can be punished or the follow up to it can be avoided i think.
 

Thor

Smash Champion
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Sep 26, 2013
Messages
2,009
Location
UIUC [school year]. MN [summer]
Dash attack into downtilt is safe on shield! But then the down tilt can be punished or the follow up to it can be avoided i think.
I think literally everything not a special is safe on shield if you hit -> ASC -> buffer spotdodge or airdodge, but that's impractical for a huge variety of reasons.

Assuming frame-perfection: Anything -> forcepalm can be spotdodged, I think most of those things can be shielded - forcepalm is like frame 10, so you must generate ~5-frame advantage, so that the cancel eats one frame (4) and then your grab comes out before theirs (they're at -1 then, grabs are frame 7 in PM, slower for some). You need a larger [I believe impossible to gain without stupid shield DI that puts them in range] advantage to safely force palm Fox because OoS shine is frame 4 as opposed to frame 7.

However, people respect Lucario's shield pressure because getting punished by it sucks hard, and being frame-perfect when dealing with shieldstun is VERY difficult. You can rather safely dash attack -> force palm the back of shields, and you can still go for it to start a match to test if the opponent respects it or not. I do it to open many a match, because many people just don't punish it [even if they buffer stuff] so it can be safe. Versus an opponent that knows how to punish it, this is just asking for trouble [though they must react quickly].

I think dash attack -> dtilt -> b-reversed double team [or anything -> b-reversed DT when on a shield] is extremely hard to punish, but it also puts you back in the neutral so it's not that good anyway, except maybe if somehow a Ganondorf in shield scares you (lol).
 

Podoboo

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 25, 2015
Messages
6
I have moderate success with ftilt>force palm on shield as a mixup option along with a downair to command grab from behind.
 
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