Lucario MU chart V2.0

[RT]

Mario CANNOT kill lucario. The only way lucario should be dieing is an upsmash OoS and maybe a fresh Dsmash but, for the most part mario cannot kill lucario reliably. So if mario can't kill well that means he has to try to gimp lucario which is pretty hard considering Fludd/Cape(his main gimp tools) don't help too much. +1/2 for lucario

^Pretty much all this. Generally if the character can't reliably kill, it's pretty much +1 at the very minimum since it becomes an uphill battle, especially if Lucario gets the first stock. Mario can't kill Lucario until like what, 150-160% optimistically?

My memory is rusty, but can't you just jab fireballs? Yeah...

 

[vato_break]

aurosphere goes through fireballs and if mario sh fireballs he can't do anything till he lands meaning you just need to read his sh fireball for kills lol

 

[hichez50]

aurosphere goes through fireballs and if mario sh fireballs he can't do anything till he lands meaning you just need to read his sh fireball for kills lol

Not until ~70% before then they just cancel. Higher level mario's should know this and potential bait a grounded aurashpere. I'm not saying this is the saving grace for mario or anything.

 

[vato_break]

higher level marios don't exist

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Vato, didn't you quit Mario like 2 years ago?

 

[vato_break]

Yeah but, i picked him up again like 3-4 months ago

 

[Braxton2011]

Don't forget, you're here forever.

Anyway. DK vs Lucario halp.

 

[phi1ny3]

Pretend he's snake. Don't let him land, but at the same time, respect his aerials and space reeeeally well

He's really combo-able, especially if he's facing forward in the air, except when he has a wound-up punch.

Don't throw out fsmashes or close AS if he has a punch ready, he can punish you hard for it.

Umm, fair and most of your aerials go through his upB for recovery.

Here's some good videos of the MU:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvRGXym01w0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPw8ZNrg7Vo&feature=related

Yes, they're old, but they're pretty helpful imo.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

With MK gone its interesting... There are now eight characters (including us :3) without a -2 MU according to that chart... Strategically speaking wouldn't it be best to pick one of these characters as a main?

Was there any specific reason why people chose discussion only through panels instead of it being openly?

I specifically remember arguing and getting the Falcos agreeing with us about a 0 in the last one (they were debating for -1).

I highly respect the 5 people in our panel, but it feels like even with the best there are some things and matchups that get overlooked.

 

[RT]

I would assume it's because the panel people know what the are talking about and don't say random/dumb things. Suffice it to say, I don't want people who don't know what the hell they're talking about on there.

There are probably other people who could be in it, but people are naturally lazy.

 

[Steam]

I can talk about things. But no one trusts coloradarios

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I checked with people if they were fine with working on it and everyone said yes.

Trying to figure out next one when 3.0 happens and when it does who else I could add.

 

[Steam]

I COUKD HALP I HAS NO LIEF.

<3hart

 

[iRJi]

Well it's hard to say it is a -2 when there was a huge following for it to be a -1 on both sides.

But again i know the chart will never please everyone.

RJ, MK when he know what he is supposed to do Anti style is our worst MU. Even if June beat M2K that doesn't mean the MU is any closer.

Whoa, stop. I can't believe I am seeing this now and missed it before.

I played against Anti enough to say that it is irreverent. Anti know the matchup, this is a obvious fact, but that does not state and justify that the Lucario is playing it properly either. With my numerous times playing against him, I have never thought "Wow, this is impossible!" Hell, I have not thought it was out of my reach at all actually. I can strictly say I lost due to him being an overall better player, not because Lucario is garbage.

Don't even group me with the wave of people that say "Because X beat Y, that means it's better or worse!" It's shameful, and belittling. To hell if I think because Junebug beat M2k was a moving point for my argument.

The option difference between MK and a character like d3 or snake are easily noticeable, and I would still go as far as saying you can put snake to only a -1 if you really wanted too. The fact you group d3 as a -1 when not only does he have a CG on you, but also outranges you on multiple accounts, AND can edge guard you efficiently, is craziness. Let's not forget the fact that he has a guaranteed kill move out of the CG. (It's a doozy, and idk about your d3's but NJ/NY's can pretty much do them on command, and these are the mediocre players)

Playing near the edge is hardly a viable strategy. You give up stage control, and that alone puts you in a disadvantageous situation from the start, due to the fact you you have less room to control, and puts you closer near the edge.

And while we are on the topic of playing against Lucario "properly", if any D3 was to just deal damage and then CAMP you, you will lose. End of story. I don't even wanna here that we have the pressure tools to deal with that. AS isn't a viable pressure tool, and is in fact, easily avoided when staying grounded.

 

[phi1ny3]

D3 can camp? I can see bair zoning, but actually camp?

 

[iRJi]

D3 can camp? I can see bair zoning, but actually camp?

It's not hard to sit there and wait. Camping is implied in different spectrum. You can say "he can just wait" or anything along those lines. The point is, AS is not a consistent stream of proper pressure. It is a subpar tool when applied in that fashion, and is best used for landing traps and hard reads.

 

[Fuujin]

Zelda is definitely -3


D DISCIPLE YOU BEAT ME IN TOURNAMENT YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS

Though it was like midnight and I was super tired and I SD

but it's still -3.

 

[phi1ny3]

Zelda is definitely -3


D DISCIPLE YOU BEAT ME IN TOURNAMENT YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS

Though it was like midnight and I was super tired and I SD

but it's still -3.

Naw itz ur faevur cuz u can sparkl keel all owr aryeulz

 

[D. Disciple]

Zelda is definitely -3


D DISCIPLE YOU BEAT ME IN TOURNAMENT YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS

Though it was like midnight and I was super tired and I SD

but it's still -3.

I know but I didn't discuss this match up at all lmao.

 

[phi1ny3]

It's not hard to sit there and wait. Camping is implied in different spectrum. You can say "he can just wait" or anything along those lines. The point is, AS is not a consistent stream of proper pressure. It is a subpar tool when applied in that fashion, and is best used for landing traps and hard reads.

Oh, that sounds more understandable. But it's not like he can force you to approach if he loses the lead, right?

I feel it's -2, but mostly because if you lose round 1, you have a looooooooot of your work cut out for you, but it's quite feasible if you win 1st round. That or if your stageset is very conservative.

 

[Steam]

I think fox, snake, and d3 are all -2 :/

 

[hichez50]

I think fox, snake, and d3 are all -2 :/

Fox is not -2. We pretty much go even with fox until we get to kill percent. Even then you know his kill options. And I'd we are on a stage with platform it becomes easier for us to avoid fox. Fox likes to chase us but we can't chase fox. The match up is fine where it is.

I agree that the DDD match up is -2. Also in response to the camping discussion, DDD can use waddle dee to help support his camping game.

Snake has some gray area. I think it just depends on your play style. Defensive>offensive

 

[Conviction]

Tbh, the Fox vs. Lucario was pretty simple.

Just basing this off the times we've played.

There are somethings I thought you should have done so it would have been harder for me.

For instance when I'm offstage shoot Aspheres at me. It would be really helpful especially if I have to recover from below. It makes me either

• go for the ledge
• carefully time a way to get above the Aspheres.

It just makes recovering in general a little harder.

Less fair too, they are really punishable for Fox

In other words I strongly disagree with the notion of it ever being even. I'm feeling -1 or -2, leaning more towards -2 though.

 

[Doc King]

As far as I know, Fox does pretty well against Lucario. His up smash kills him very early which is very important for a character like him and he can just give him free damage (Lazers), reflect his projectiles, and out speed him. It's definitely Fox's favor.

 

[Steam]

Yeah fox can just play keep away and force lucario to commit to punishable approaches. I WISH we could just play rock paper scissors with him... But we just can't. A fox with extremely good reflexes is stupid hard for a lucario to beat.

 

[Browny]

Im loving this speaking from experience, steam.

 

[D. Disciple]

To everyone saying the Fox match up is -2 imagine me hitting you with a paper fan.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What is the consensus for Lucario vs Olimar? It also seems to be around -1 or -2 ...

 

[Conviction]

To everyone saying the Fox match up is -2 imagine me hitting you with a paper fan.

SDI and punish

 

[D. Disciple]

SDI and punish

touche good fellow

 

[Steam]

What is the consensus for Lucario vs Olimar? It also seems to be around -1 or -2 ...

It's no worse than -1. But it should be a -1.

 

[hichez50]

It's no worse than -1. But it should be a -1.

Seriously? We have to take 15% before we can get close then Once we do it's not guaranteed that we do anything significant. I know what you guys are thinking just gimp him. That only works if they do something stupid in many cases. Imo

 

[Steam]

We don't have to take 15% to get in.

And we usually won't gimp him. But we can get in on him for a lot of damage because he's slow inside

 

[ChocoNaner]

steam lost to my solimar on his cp, don't listen to him :I

solimar too good mangz ichu:

 

[D. Disciple]

I'm a say -1 or 0 but that's just me.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Whoa, stop. I can't believe I am seeing this now and missed it before.

I played against Anti enough to say that it is irreverent. Anti know the matchup, this is a obvious fact, but that does not state and justify that the Lucario is playing it properly either. With my numerous times playing against him, I have never thought "Wow, this is impossible!" Hell, I have not thought it was out of my reach at all actually. I can strictly say I lost due to him being an overall better player, not because Lucario is garbage.

-2 isn't impossible, it is a bad MU and one which was agreed to be that hard. Though their was discussion of it being a -1 possibly but I can't detail that much since that would delve into things I can't speak of.

It's not out of winnable reach, but it is hard. Yeah he doesn't have a CG, kills us at 110% with Utilt, though he could still get low % kills an gimps.

Not to say it can't be a -1 though, but I don't think the MU is better than Snake or D3.

Don't even group me with the wave of people that say "Because X beat Y, that means it's better or worse!" It's shameful, and belittling. To hell if I think because Junebug beat M2k was a moving point for my argument.

It's good to see you avoid this terrible mindset that affects a lot of people in Metagame/ruleset that leads to logical fallacies.

The option difference between MK and a character like d3 or snake are easily noticeable, and I would still go as far as saying you can put snake to only a -1 if you really wanted too. The fact you group d3 as a -1 when not only does he have a CG on you, but also outranges you on multiple accounts, AND can edge guard you efficiently, is craziness. Let's not forget the fact that he has a guaranteed kill move out of the CG. (It's a doozy, and idk about your d3's but NJ/NY's can pretty much do them on command, and these are the mediocre players)

Snake I'm still in the middle but sided with people I trust more with knowledge of how hard it is, Trela whom also is the undebateable best at that MU. His words held more weight and made up my mind when I was extremely hesitant at first because I despise this MU with a passion.

I've played Coney before a few times and did at Apex in my pool, I took a game off him there which is a first, so no I'm not basing this off mediocre players nor was anyone on the panel, except one person.

I considered the CG>Usmash, when thinking about the MU and discussing it. I didn't at all think if they couldn't do it or had a lot of trouble, like every D3 who tries it on me or others I see.

Despite all this, we still thought it was a -1 at worst and the other panel agreed.

Playing near the edge is hardly a viable strategy. You give up stage control, and that alone puts you in a disadvantageous situation from the start, due to the fact you you have less room to control, and puts you closer near the edge.

I wouldn't do this against D3 just to minimize damage from the CG.

And while we are on the topic of playing against Lucario "properly", if any D3 was to just deal damage and then CAMP you, you will lose. End of story. I don't even wanna here that we have the pressure tools to deal with that. AS isn't a viable pressure tool, and is in fact, easily avoided when staying grounded.

I agree with the Aura Sphere is bad on grounded opponents who can shield, and that approaching him is hard.

Gonna disagree with it being instant lose, because though he is har to approach it is doable.

~

Fox is -1 at worst, I don't get why people think he is super bad like D3.

 

[Steam]

I dunno what to think about d3. I've been destroyed by every d3 I've played and don't think it's that bad, just me not being patient enough. I think passive aggressively zoning d3 can go a long way In this mu.

Fox mu feels like we need to count him messing up to even touch him... And we don't have a ton on him.... I could see it being our worst matchup lol.

 

[Conviction]

Fox is -1 at worst, I don't get why people think he is super bad like D3.

Lucario is +2 at best, I don't get why people think he is mad even like Wolf.

 

[Browny]

Sometimes I wonder... if people are still using the 'fox KO's early, so instant matchup point in favour of him' mentality.

to this day, almost 4 years on, im yet to see a match which would make me think its this bad, and TKD beating a lucario badly means nothing, since he does the same to all characters.

 

[Steam]

Fox being able to land upsmash easily is huuuuge in the matchup. He can punish just about everything we do with it. Plus even when he's losing he can just play keepaway and punish approaches. :/