Lucario Metagame Discussion

[Pappy]

Only if you promise to never make an arrow to the knee joke ever again.

Otherwise we probably should all go to IRC, chill, and metagame.

There must be alot of those in the Link, TLink and Pit threads.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I only make arrow to the knee jokes when I'm specifically asked not to.

So I'm afraid I can't fulfill your request

But seriously, yeah, IRC. Somehow I always forget about that, I spend all my time on Skype.

 

[D. Disciple]

If you guys want more of these. I'll be more than happy to do them.

 

[Karnu]

Is it me or is this thread derailed? -__-

 

[AlexoftheAura]

Not so much derailed as it is inactive.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I should fix that someday.

 

[AlexoftheAura]

Might as well set the next one for June 5th. No need to change the title!

 

[D. Disciple]

lmao, this is now Disciple's Puppy Metadiscussion

I'll schedule one next monday since I know I don't work that day.

 

[DrSoussou]

Can someone tell the noob (me) how exactly this thread used to work or what the point was? From the few pages I read, it seems like there were some decently productive times. If it was just occasional metagame group chats, then consider me in the next time it gets organized. I've got Skype but idk what IRC is.

Food for thought in the meantime...I've recently become a fan of a little ledge wall-jump on FD. Not sure if this has been discussed in a particular MU or if its already common knowledge, but hear me out. Basically, I drop from the ledge, jump back into the ledge pretty quickly to get the wall-jump away from the stage, then B-reverse a charge after reaching the peak of the wall-jump.

I have no idea how practical you guys will think this is, but I find that it confuses my opponent, gives me time to charge and sometimes fire AS at their attempted edge-guarding position, and can bait them into attacking me off the map. Please feel free to discuss/call me out for being a noob/ignore me completely. :D

 

[D. Disciple]

For the next one, if I can get it working properly. I'll set up a stream, so we can go over scenarios like we did in the past.

 

[Tony T]

That would be good Disciple.

 

[D Who?]

Is there a possible way to exploit Lucario's 1 frame grab on FP if we try to platform cancel it?

 

[D. Disciple]

I've talked to Trela about it. No results so far

 

[D Who?]

Any ideas on how to go about testing this?
It sounds like it'd work

 

[hichez50]

find a partner and test it?

 

[D. Disciple]

^That or practice platform drops to force palm on the computer in random spots of smashville.

 

[Pivot]

So I was watching Ken play and I thought of a possible bait or mind game.

Whenever Luc starts charging his aura sphere (works best when its a big charge), the opponent always shields. In Falco's case, he usually uses his projectile countering move.

They do this because they think you're going to shoot it. Well, I think a good bait would be to charge it near them then strangle. Or charge near then Dtilt when they're at high percentages (comboable).

Thoughts?

 

[hichez50]

Yeah it works some of the time. You are super exposed when you charge aurasphere you have a limited choice of options to get out of AS charge.

One interesting idea I have seen trela use was using a B reversed AS and he read that is opponent would shield so he just held it there and predicted the drop. It was an amazing read that would work if you know your opponent is hesitant to approach.

I'm glad to see someone here that actually wants to talk metagame.

 

[Linkshot]

So I was watching Ken play and I thought of a possible bait or mind game.

Whenever Luc starts charging his aura sphere (works best when its a big charge), the opponent always shields. In Falco's case, he usually uses his projectile countering move.

They do this because they think you're going to shoot it. Well, I think a good bait would be to charge it near them then strangle. Or charge near then Dtilt when they're at high percentages (comboable).

Thoughts?

Pretty sure I do this a lot against Montreal's Fox main and he's caught on.

 

[hichez50]

It is more of a mix up. To test the water I sometimes like to shoot a obvious aurashpere at my opponents shield(even if they have a reflector, but not absorber). And see how they react. If example if it is fox and they don't try to reflect it back at me I have discovered that they usually don't read for hard mix-ups. (i.e running past your opponent jump back and then B reversing an aurashpere at point blank range. It can pay off. There is always the chance that fox will read it though so use it only when you are 100% confident. If you have doubt then you probally shouldn't use it.

 

[Pivot]

So Trela did a B reversal to bait a shield, then he held it charged and released it when he predicted they'd unshield... Not a bad idea.

And Linkshot, the beauty of this mind game is that if they end up catching on (which means they won't shield when you charge anymore because they now know its just to bait a shield), you can change things up and start actually releasing it, and they won't shield since they'll have expected just a charge and get hit.

If not hit it should at least throw them off.

If they don't reverse it when you fire it directly at them (fox/Falco's analogy) then they probably won't reverse it in the more complex situations and combos, so yeah that's a good way to test the water.

 

[DrSoussou]

I've taken a huge step towards mastering wavebounces recently so I'm excited to see what mindgames I can incorporate with that, and it seems like I might be able to use this somehow. I love when I can get my opponents to shield consistently when I'm on the ground because I tend to be somewhat grab-aggressive in general.

I'm thinking maybe use wavebounce to fire off three or four FCAS's in a row. Then, once I've conditioned them to associate wavebounce with FCAS, I can wavebounce a charge to bait their shield and punish.

 

[Pivot]

Sounds like a plan. But you won't be able to fire three-four FCAS's in a row unless you charge them first (which you need to do when they're off-stage or not able to attack you).

 

[hichez50]

It could work? If you you pull it off vs. a top player in your region let me know

 

[Pivot]

Unless they're 100% not expecting it, there's no way. Charging AS on pros rarely hits unless they're not predicting it whatsoever.

 

[DrSoussou]

The first three wouldn't necessarily have to connect, just teach them how to respond to it the way I want.

As far as being able to charge, it's all in moderation. Watch Trela play. He rarely charges AS all at once, preferring instead to tap B whenever he has a spare millisecond.

 

[Pivot]

That's the main reason he has a very high FCAS connection rate. If you hit them off the ledge then charge all at once, they'll be wary of an AS. If you charge in little tiny frames and then suddenly unleash a FCAS, they'll be caught by surprise.

 

[Sunnysunny]

I only keep a fully charged one if they're at kill percent, since in alot of MU's I abuse the hell outta BAS as a long ranged poke to control space. Love those things~ <3

As far as landing the things, I bait.

At high percent
SH-f-air, retreating FCAS

F-smash on shield, small dash back, FCAS

F-tilt on hit, FCAS

Late dash attack hit, Turn around FCAS

At low percent
F-air, n-air, FCAS

B-throw FCAS.

Incredibly simple set ups that work when used sparingly~

 

[hichez50]

I only keep a fully charged one if they're at kill percent, since in alot of MU's I abuse the hell outta BAS as a long ranged poke to control space. Love those things~ <3

As far as landing the things, I bait.

F-smash on shield, small dash back, FCAS

Incredibly simple set ups that work when used sparingly~

O.o Really? I find that in a lot of match-ups BAS is really not as good as you think. I usually find it better to try to use the time to position myself better. Because if you are a grounded and you opponent will perfect shield eventually limiting the space you can move around. Specifically what characters are you using F-smash on shield?

The rest of the stuff you posted seems legit.

I don't mind FCAS, but I don't charge it all at once so I can B-reverse> airdodge/ land and instant grab/sheild/etc... It is so underrated with lucario. I feel like Trela is the only lucario that uses to its full effect. Junebug and some other lucario's use it on occasion, but I think they could get away with a lot more.

 

[Pivot]

The problem with BAS is that it takes so much longer to get out than almost everyone else's projectiles.

And by B-reversal, you mean the wavebounce while using Aura Sphere? Sorry, I'm new to B-sticking.

 

[Sunnysunny]

O.o Really? I find that in a lot of match-ups BAS is really not as good as you think. I usually find it better to try to use the time to position myself better. Because if you are a grounded and you opponent will perfect shield eventually limiting the space you can move around. Specifically what characters are you using F-smash on shield?

The rest of the stuff you posted seems legit.

I don't mind FCAS, but I don't charge it all at once so I can B-reverse> airdodge/ land and instant grab/sheild/etc... It is so underrated with lucario. I feel like Trela is the only lucario that uses to its full effect. Junebug and some other lucario's use it on occasion, but I think they could get away with a lot more.

I use BAS as an interrupter and space controller for alot of MU's. It stops Peach from plucking and Glide tossing turnips to start pressure for free, makes snake have to drop his grenades, or jump and throw to get em to land near you. Little things like that. Its really good against snake. and despite being easy to shield it DOES make characters with out projectiles have to approach and still remains fairly safe at mid range and beyond unless your fighitng one of the fastest of fighters like MK. Then its dumb to use. Its good against characters with out projectiles though because it does give you a little control over there movement. I often use it to get them to approach on the ground more cautiously, or want to jump a little more if they think i'm gonna lob one, which lets me dominate with my own air-to-air game.

And F-smash isn't that bad on shield dude. At 0 percent, its subpar sense its like -13 on block, so its punishable by most dash attacks when spaced well, but as you get higher in percent it starts to really shine. The shield stun last longer, and gives even more shield push back. You can punish opponents who try to punish it with dash attacks by simply pivot grabbing, jabbing, or step back AS. Its near impossible to punish at high percent dude. Only one I can think of that can punish it on shield is Sheik. Takes a lil set up to get the opponent at the right range, but yea, even if you whiff it you should be fine unless the opponents already in the air above you. Not a move worth ignoring at high percent.

I'm gonna be the lucario mentor for newcomers that come to this site pretty soon so correct me if i'm wrong. I can perform and utilize all the AT's properly and pride myself on the fundamentals and bait and punish game. My flaw is i'm a little to focused on frames and staying safe. I don't have that "tricky" factor that Trela has when he needs to get in, unless whatever trick I have is fairly safe.

 

[hichez50]

The problem is Power shielding though. The number one player in my state(4God) Power shields all/most of my fsmashes and gets free grabs off of it. And in casuals he power shields things better than the average player. So you could just be giving your opponent free percent. Also Fsmash is hilarious vs. luigi. They get so frustrated when there spacing gets reset.

Also if you have time you should go critique my matches I posted in the video thread. It would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Pivot]

Can't prove any of the first two paragraphs wrong, accept the -13 (if that stands for how many frames you lose, that's enough to be punished by any quick attacks. But yeah, at high percents I don't see any flaw.

The fact that you don't have the risk-taking or "trick factor" is actually good for mentoring, since if you taught the same tricks to all new Luc's they would be more and more predictable and common.

So yeah, mentoring without that is good since it allows each individual person to put their own spin on certain aspects.

(And Hichez, we have lagging hotboxes, so unless you're extremely predictable, power-shielding shouldn't be happening so often.)

 

[hichez50]

(And Hichez, we have lagging hotboxes, so unless you're extremely predictable, power-shielding shouldn't be happening so often.)

I don't think you understand that fsmash punishes over commitment. It is pretty predictable overall. In a lot of cases it doesn't matter.

 

[DrSoussou]

^I was going to say the same thing. When hitboxes linger they're extremely difficult to PS, so much so that I don't think I can recall an instance where I've ever had my Fsmash PSed. I've only had it punished if my opponent jumps before the hitbox or is extremely fast after shieldstun.

And Pivot, by B-reversing he means the technique that changes the direction that Lucario is facing as well as changing his momentum/traveling direction. Turnaround-B changes face but not momentum, and Wavebounce changes momentum but not face.

I'm assuming that "BAS" is the term for an immediately-released aura sphere? As in, one that is not charged but fired after pressing B twice? "baby aura sphere"? lol

 

[Sunnysunny]

Ahaha, thanks. I'm a very mid-level competitive player. By the end of the year, I guarantee i'll make my states leaderboard, but I doubt i'll ever make the top unless I be brave and try more of the tricky stuff.

4god? He's the DDD main right?

F-smash is bad against fatty McFatfat. He gets a way better punish off of PS and actively looks for that stuff. I wouldn't recommend completely taking it out of your repitoire though. Try charging em just a tinybit if you expect him to approach by PS it. I hardly fight any hardcore DDD mains, but its worth a shot.

Mm and yea~ I gotta go to my Tai kwon do lessons but when I get back i'll check out your vid and help in whatever way I can~

Ciao for now.

 

[Pivot]

Hichez, I was trying to say that PS'ing shouldn't be a problem with lagging hitboxes. PS'ing needs to be done 100% perfect if they want to PS correctly against a lagging hitbox. That's why i was confused why it was interfering with your F-Smash use (which does have a lagging hitbox, but not to the extent of U-Smash).

Yeah, BAS means literally, "Baby Aura Sphere". It's from that Lucario guide here under the "Abbreviations" section.

It should never be taken out of someone's repertoire though (F-Smash), since it's a killer move for spacing if nothing else. BAS too of course.

(Brazilian Jiu Jitsu over Tai Kwon Do IMO ;D)

 

[hichez50]

I wish I had a recorded video with me playing 4god. You will see that this guy is just good. Vs. DDD he can just grab you a lot of the times you throw a fsmash at his shield.

 

[Sunnysunny]

(Brazilian Jiu Jitsu over Tai Kwon Do IMO ;D)

Jiu Jitsu definitely more stylish~ <3 I'd love to practice it, but i'm a pretty short dude~ :>

Its a sub genre of Tai Kwon Do called Chung Do Kwan. Its emphasized power and range. Basically one of the founders of Tai Kwon Do took all the moves he thought were useful and cut all the unnecessary flashy moves out.

You can kick someone.

OR

You can do 3 unnecessary flips then kick someone. :V

Chung Do Kwons the former.

@Hichez, I'd love to fight him myself honestly. We only have a ton of pocket or secondary DDD's here. Not a single guy mains him. I've never lost to secondary or pocket DDD's, but I have a feeling my lack of MU knowledge will catch up when I fight a real King fatfatfat.

 

[Pivot]

DDD is a heavyweight character and is a sucker for FP chains. Also, I find that Luc handles heavy characters best, since he is a rather heavy character himself so he can sustain their strong KO moves.

Plus it helps to fight heavyweight characters when using aerial moves (better combos).

Doesn't matter how short you are in Jiu Jitsu. In fact, I'd assume Tai Kwon Do would matter more (longer legs = longer range kicks). I'm just as tall as my instructor, but he's a black belt and can probably tap me out in a matter of seconds.

Chung Do Kwons' technique sounds a lot like Maui Tao (spelled wrong I think).