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Lucario Matchups

Losho

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What do you believe his best/worst match ups are and why? I personally find Zelda to be a royal pain due to her weight and priorities.
 
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Risky

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I used to think Zelda was bad in 3.0, haven't played in 3.5 but I think a lot of the issues have been settled down, mostly that aerial Nayru's has no intangibility so if she's mashing it during a combo she'll probably trade with us.

Lucario's worst matchups are probably; Peach, Squirtle, Mario, Falco, Fox, with an honorable mention to crouch canceling.

We're strong against tall characters that aren't floaties (big targets), and/or people with slow defensive options. Ganon, DK, Snake, Bowser, D3, Roy, Ike. I enjoy the Marth matchup too and think it's Lucario favored.
 

Losho

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I used to think Zelda was bad in 3.0, haven't played in 3.5 but I think a lot of the issues have been settled down, mostly that aerial Nayru's has no intangibility so if she's mashing it during a combo she'll probably trade with us.

Lucario's worst matchups are probably; Peach, Squirtle, Mario, Falco, Fox, with an honorable mention to crouch canceling.

We're strong against tall characters that aren't floaties (big targets), and/or people with slow defensive options. Ganon, DK, Snake, Bowser, D3, Roy, Ike. I enjoy the Marth matchup too and think it's Lucario favored.
I feel the same way regarding the favorable matchups, I will say that I feel that the Falco/ Fox matchup and be rather even if downtilt is used optimally to avoid crouchcanceling
 

Risky

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Spacies crouch canceling can be a major problem but that's not why. Lucario has very few moves to challenge their buttons (think Fox nair), and shine leads into any followup ever. Pressure is really tough for us to deal with and that's what spacies are all about.
 

Losho

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Spacies crouch canceling can be a major problem but that's not why. Lucario has very few moves to challenge their buttons (think Fox nair), and shine leads into any followup ever. Pressure is really tough for us to deal with and that's what spacies are all about.
I feel you on that.
 

Fearless

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I have trouble with the heavy floaties so mainly Luigi and Samus. They're floaty enough that you need more time to combo them than like Fox, but since theyre also heavy their hitstun isn't as long, so you don't have that much time to chase them and string combos.
 

THEDADPOOL

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fox and falco are easily his worst matchups not so much wolf anymore since you can cc his shines(apparently) luigi wario mario are others that may be hard to deal with not so much mario anymore due to nerfs but luigi is the bain of my lucario's existance i hate that match up. peach also i have learn recently can be a problem if you don't know how to deal with her.

in the zelda matchup you literally dont have to approach them like ever so just wait till throw out a nuetral b(can be autocanceled) or other move that can be punished.
 

Fearless

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Hmm that's interesting, I've beaten foxes that are better than me, I just find that when I get in it's usually a free stock since his fall speed makes him so easy to combo. Peach I just noticed you have to avoid downtilts, and mix up your recoveries and you should be fine. But the Zelda matchup is annoying yes, but definitely doable, it just makes you play 10x more patiently than you normally would.
 

THEDADPOOL

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its probably because they dont understand they can shine out of a lot of lucario's combo starters/ there sdi isn't on point against him
 

Fearless

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Hmm I guess that may be it, I probably can't tell for sure until I play a highlevel fox.
 

zFrost

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^ spacies seem pretty easy but it could just be a lack of lucario mu experience, personally i feel like floaties in general are harder just because they're harder to combo
 

Fearless

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Yupp, I've beaten plenty of spacies with a better grasp of the game. But I still tend to lose to floaties like Zelda and Samus that I have more experience than.
 

un.dead

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I've heard that Lucario wins the IC MU. Is that actually true, or was the person just talking out their ass simply because of the double charge rate?
 
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zFrost

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that alone is a huuuggee plus tho, lucario is also godlike at shield pressure and climbers don't have the most impressive shield.
 
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_TacocaT_

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I personally need help on the Link MU. I've been a huge Lucario player and have made name for myself in the North Jersey scene but my close friend uses Link I cannot seem to be able to beat him. It might be from the massive amount of experience from just playing me but not being able to take a game off of him is getting annoying. Its usually his projectiles that stop my pressure and momentum. Any ideas?
 

Thor

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I personally need help on the Link MU. I've been a huge Lucario player and have made name for myself in the North Jersey scene but my close friend uses Link I cannot seem to be able to beat him. It might be from the massive amount of experience from just playing me but not being able to take a game off of him is getting annoying. Its usually his projectiles that stop my pressure and momentum. Any ideas?
I main Link with a bit of a Lucario [it's really bad but only like one guy around here plays Lucario and he's not that good so my Lucario seems usable when it shouldn't be], so I'll offer my thoughts.

Good Link mains will zone you and run away like they will literally die if you get within 3 feet of them without a hitbox active [ie nair or maybe fair]... because that really should be the case.

I think Link wins the MU because Lucario has to work so hard just to get in. But Link is utter combo fodder - heavy, so not sent too far, falls rather fast, but slow enough to stay airborne for easy followups/not get in a CCing position. You can CC his dsmash and I think his dtilt is just too slow to be an effective CC counter [CCC?], so if you hit him, he basically HAS to SDI.

All that said, Link's boomerang can save him when a combo starts [you can try to clank it while behind you with some fancy shenanigans... maybe] and if he's holding a bomb that screws things up, but keeping that stuff is easier said than done.

Link can combo Lucario decently and Link's projectiles do set up for followups, but unlike vs Fox where Link really should take every opportunity, careful zoning means we shouldn't get hit really ever [as compared to Fox], and the punish game is just as harsh, if not harsher [despite waveshining existing, Lucario combos are a Link nightmare]. So if you DI everything really well [bombs and rangs], you'll just get zoned forever. if you DI poorly, you'll get combo'd.

If the PMBR made a Link that only spammed projectiles, Lucario mains could rejoice and practice, but as it stands... practice is unlikely unless you have a projectile-heavy Link you can practice against.

Oh, and if Link stands still, walks forward slowly, or ducks, his shield blocks a ground-level super aura sphere [I don't know if you can fire it at a height where this doesn't work]. This is of course impractical, but it can happen.

My advice then: Make every hit count big time. Aura charges should nearly always be saved for approaching, unless you have that last stock force palm kill, or can generate a huge lead in killing right away [i.e. an offstage super force palm while Link's at lowish percents] - I think that if you can make a kill but you're already at high percents, it may be better to just save that charge and either CC for the KO next stock [CC usmash or whatever] or try to win neutral/extend combo and take the lead while saving the aura, but it's a thing you have to feel out. I think in this MU more than almost any other, aura bomb is not very useful, since if you use it and he hits you away, he can walk up to it and it'll disappear.

Double team through projectiles is SUPER predictable [every Link with MU experience expects it], but at some points it's probably just the best option, especially if the rang's gone behind him [i.e. he doesn't have it] and you're going through a bomb - he has to run away [and stage control is good, cornering him is vital] or else start sword swings, and you can safely CC everything but fsmash and I guess fair/dair [but just hit him out of dair or shield it and try to start offense from that - fair is pretty good on shield but his jab is slow and grab is really slow].

Look to CC to get in - Link's only good anti-CC tools are his rapid jab, [SDI away or maybe try to roll through, but messing up the roll through quickly adds a lot of percent] fsmash, and projectiles - you can [and should] CC basically everything else [dtilt does work but it's a little slow, as mentioned earlier].

Aura sphere can edgeguard a non-sweetspotted recovery, and if you have any anti-tether tech that's good, but I personally love Lucario's dair for hitting people out of tethers [or just grab ledge of course]. Throwing Link offstage is really good for anyone, and Lucario is no exception.

If the Link is aggressive, slightly DIing projectiles so that you are just out of range of a followup [but maybe look in range] may cause a Link player to overextend with dair or something. This is obviously risky [if you screw up you get dair'd], but dair has 20 frames of l-cancelled landing lag, so you could definitely punish. A patient Link will just pull a bomb [or only go for fair or zair, since they're long-range], but knowing your opponent and baiting bad moves is essential, and this is a thing that's Link-specific and therefore worth mentioning.

If you want more advice or clarification, tag me or quote me or something. There are other Link or Lucario players who can probably help better, but I'm willing to which is why I say this.
 

_TacocaT_

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I main Link with a bit of a Lucario [it's really bad but only like one guy around here plays Lucario and he's not that good so my Lucario seems usable when it shouldn't be], so I'll offer my thoughts.

Good Link mains will zone you and run away like they will literally die if you get within 3 feet of them without a hitbox active [ie nair or maybe fair]... because that really should be the case.

I think Link wins the MU because Lucario has to work so hard just to get in. But Link is utter combo fodder - heavy, so not sent too far, falls rather fast, but slow enough to stay airborne for easy followups/not get in a CCing position. You can CC his dsmash and I think his dtilt is just too slow to be an effective CC counter [CCC?], so if you hit him, he basically HAS to SDI.

All that said, Link's boomerang can save him when a combo starts [you can try to clank it while behind you with some fancy shenanigans... maybe] and if he's holding a bomb that screws things up, but keeping that stuff is easier said than done.

Link can combo Lucario decently and Link's projectiles do set up for followups, but unlike vs Fox where Link really should take every opportunity, careful zoning means we shouldn't get hit really ever [as compared to Fox], and the punish game is just as harsh, if not harsher [despite waveshining existing, Lucario combos are a Link nightmare]. So if you DI everything really well [bombs and rangs], you'll just get zoned forever. if you DI poorly, you'll get combo'd.

If the PMBR made a Link that only spammed projectiles, Lucario mains could rejoice and practice, but as it stands... practice is unlikely unless you have a projectile-heavy Link you can practice against.

Oh, and if Link stands still, walks forward slowly, or ducks, his shield blocks a ground-level super aura sphere [I don't know if you can fire it at a height where this doesn't work]. This is of course impractical, but it can happen.

My advice then: Make every hit count big time. Aura charges should nearly always be saved for approaching, unless you have that last stock force palm kill, or can generate a huge lead in killing right away [i.e. an offstage super force palm while Link's at lowish percents] - I think that if you can make a kill but you're already at high percents, it may be better to just save that charge and either CC for the KO next stock [CC usmash or whatever] or try to win neutral/extend combo and take the lead while saving the aura, but it's a thing you have to feel out. I think in this MU more than almost any other, aura bomb is not very useful, since if you use it and he hits you away, he can walk up to it and it'll disappear.

Double team through projectiles is SUPER predictable [every Link with MU experience expects it], but at some points it's probably just the best option, especially if the rang's gone behind him [i.e. he doesn't have it] and you're going through a bomb - he has to run away [and stage control is good, cornering him is vital] or else start sword swings, and you can safely CC everything but fsmash and I guess fair/dair [but just hit him out of dair or shield it and try to start offense from that - fair is pretty good on shield but his jab is slow and grab is really slow].

Look to CC to get in - Link's only good anti-CC tools are his rapid jab, [SDI away or maybe try to roll through, but messing up the roll through quickly adds a lot of percent] fsmash, and projectiles - you can [and should] CC basically everything else [dtilt does work but it's a little slow, as mentioned earlier].

Aura sphere can edgeguard a non-sweetspotted recovery, and if you have any anti-tether tech that's good, but I personally love Lucario's dair for hitting people out of tethers [or just grab ledge of course]. Throwing Link offstage is really good for anyone, and Lucario is no exception.

If the Link is aggressive, slightly DIing projectiles so that you are just out of range of a followup [but maybe look in range] may cause a Link player to overextend with dair or something. This is obviously risky [if you screw up you get dair'd], but dair has 20 frames of l-cancelled landing lag, so you could definitely punish. A patient Link will just pull a bomb [or only go for fair or zair, since they're long-range], but knowing your opponent and baiting bad moves is essential, and this is a thing that's Link-specific and therefore worth mentioning.

If you want more advice or clarification, tag me or quote me or something. There are other Link or Lucario players who can probably help better, but I'm willing to which is why I say this.

No honestly this is a very detailed explanation 0_0. I also like how you not only included possible options but the likely action the Link would make as well. I read through it and I will be sure to read through it again when it comes time to play a Link in bracket (Hopefully that doesn't happen because I'm sure they'd be realllly good at most MUs). Thank you so very much for the information and if I beat a strong Link at Easton's Shots Fired I'm giving you a shout out XD
 

THEDADPOOL

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lucario can combo floaties just fine. you just need to become one with the asc's. lucario beats link imo all he has is a boomerang so power shield or downb through it he cant really bomb camp you because 3.5 link. and no lucario just loses to spacies watch sinister_6 twitch podcast and watch ipk vs larry lurr and see what happens (its close but still a b**** and a half)
 

Thor

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Soooo... turns out I'm terrible at the Link side of Link Lucario lol. However, the guy I know HATES dittos, so I can kinda keep up with him in the ditto [it's close and he's way more technical than I since I lack a setup]. However, he also plays DK and Luigi... since I'm almost positive even if he wins he won't stay Lucario, any advice for Lucario/DK and/or Lucario/Luigi? I think if I want to beat this person [never have, have gotten games but lose the sets], I'll need to be able to do Lucario/DK and/or Lucario/Luigi [there's very low odds he'd try his Marth or Puff, and I think I'd be fine vs his Falcon specifically], so I want to prepare for it now by knowing ahead of time how to approach the MUs and what to watch out for.
 

JFyst

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back on the sonic thread we doing weekly discussion on character match-ups that we want to talk about, I'd like to do this here In order to organize this information, we'd vote weekly or bi weekly on the character we'd like to talk about, and pin the thread. Anyone else down?
 

Thor

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^I'd be fine with that...

On something I read in here earlier: some of the people above say Lucario struggles against Peach... I don't see it. The Peach players I've played say my Lucario is a nightmare to fight with Peach [in tournament they don't use Peach against me at all because they hate both my Link and Lucario]. Is it CCing or is there something more? It feels like we can just run away from float all day and charge aura spheres, then fire them at awkward heights for Peach, but I'm sure I'm missing something... also I enjoy jumping straight at a floating Peach with nair from almost directly below her, it seems like she can't do much of anything besides dair which I'm spacing around, or try to nair, which I usually beat out... I'd guess this is bad, someone want to explain why?
 
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TheBearsFist

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Ok well can we start this thread ripping?

I suggest Lucario / Marth.

I feel like Marth has the upper hand here.

Every Marth I have played spaces me out with SH FAir and DTilt. My main approach it limited to Supers, AS camping plus the old wait and bait for punishes.

Does anyone else have some insight?
 

Leirkov

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Ok well can we start this thread ripping?

I suggest Lucario / Marth.

I feel like Marth has the upper hand here.

Every Marth I have played spaces me out with SH FAir and DTilt. My main approach it limited to Supers, AS camping plus the old wait and bait for punishes.

Does anyone else have some insight?
I would argue 55-45 in Marth's favor, for reasons you mention already. It is generally very hard to get in on a Marth due to disjoints and his insane grab game off Lucario (easy combo weight). In my experience, comboing Marth is slightly difficult. Once you get going though, it's hard to stop.

A good habit in this MU is to notice when Marth goes to space you out, watch his patterns, and then go in when he exposes himself. Dthrow seems to be the most optimal throw at mid percents. I generally just go for Fair ASC carryoffs and reset to neutral. I also try for a lot of Down-B -> uTilt approaches to get Marth in the air for a good followup. Use it conservatively, though.

Run up shield stop is a good mixup if you notice Marth loves using dTilt in neutral. Fair OoS can sometimes work depending on your spacing. You will also never outrange dTilt's with Marth.

tldr; Watch Marth's spacing patterns, punish when the opportunity arises, or use Down-B cancels and try to rack on as much damage as you can. Also, don't get grabbed. Marth's grab game on Lucario is gross.
 
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